Paterno Statue Down/PSU Penalties?

[Zwidmanio]

And that's the issue I have with the NCAA. They need to figure out a way to punish the actual perpetrators and not just the kids that people like Pete Carroll screw over on their way out of town to greener pastures. I hate USC as much as everyone else here, but does anyone here really believe that the current players at USC deserve to be banned from playing in bowl games because Reggie Bush and Pete Carroll are a$$holes? I certainly don't.

I'd also like to touch on how much people have been talking about NCAA sanctions as a deterrent for others. I totally disagree. As long as guys like Carroll, Calipari, Tressel, etc. can just pack up and leave for a new town or new team once the NCAA comes calling with sanctions, there is no reason for coaches to play by the rules other than personal integrity, which JoePa just proved once and for all is essentially nonexistent in the world of college sports. Again, I'm not sure what the solution is, but there needs to be a better solution than the current one.

I understand what you're saying, but I think that you're missing part of the puzzle. The problem with the NCAA is jurisdiction. They have no jurisdiction over any player or coach once that individual is no longer associated with a university. The following only addresses a small part of the problem, but I would like for the NCAA to be more proactive in preventing coaches that have committed violations from just running to another school to avoid penalty. As far as I'm aware, this doesn't really happen or it doesn't happen enough. Once again though, this doesn't solve the problem of jurisdiction once a coach (Carrol) or a player (Bush) leaves for the NFL and I doubt that there will be much of a push to allow NCAA sanctions to follow any person into the NFL, although there were some minor self-sanctions (seemingly) with Tressel upon his recent move if I recall correctly.

Further back I was one of the ones that made a point about deterrence and I think that you're misunderstanding exactly what kind of entity is supposed to be deterred. As discussed above, sure, individuals don't have as much at stake when dealing with NCAA sanctions since they can always abandon the confines of the umbrella of NCAA jurisdiction, which is why it is incumbent upon the institutions that hire these individuals to make sure that they're performing their job within the voluntarily accepted rules of the NCAA. Hence, the "lack of institutional control" being the mother of all possible NCAA violations.

While I certainly agree that there should be more individual accountability, you need to be able to hold the larger institutions accountable too or else you'd be dealing with the converse of the problem you're addressing above; if only the individuals are sanctioned, then the institutions/universities could encourage their employees to commit rules violations and then merely jettison them as soon as a problem arises and be able to avoid sanctions. It's the nature of a penalty to a larger institution that people may be negatively affected indirectly. It's not a perfect world, but these penalties need to be given from time to time and I can't think of a better time than now with Penn State.

 

[woolybug25]

You're right, which is why the NCAA needs to totally change the way they operate. Employ policies that are preventative rather then punitive, that give coaches and ADs real reasons (ie ones that affect them personally and not just the school) to be honest and maybe we'll start to see some change for the better.

No we're getting off topic though. Back to Penn State, I think the NCAA needs to make an example of them, but not in the way most are suggesting. Most people are calling for very severe, debilitating sanctions in order to warn others not to do things like this. My opinion is that if we as a society really need sanctions and punishments to remind people not to cover up a horrific child molestation scandal, we're so far gone that we're never coming back. Instead, use the massive magnifying glass hovering over State College as a way to show what a football program should be. Allow Penn St to rebuild the right way and be an example of how to learn from your terrible mistakes and become better from them (under NCAA sanctions of course, just not the program-destroying ones some are suggesting).

This is what I am not getting. The current rules are preventative instead of punitive and they do already punish the AD's/Coaches. That's why schools don't care if they hired Gordon Gee and Tressel before, because they will just fire them and hire Urban Meyer. You are calling for the status-quo and saying its some kind of new idea.

You are calling for leniency, not one in which a magnifying glass is put on the mistakes. What would do that is to send a shot across the bow with sever sanctions that make other school's administration think twice about who they hire and force them to look in the mirror regarding their own policies. The current state of college athletics is one where you are either really good, you cheat or you get fired for one of the two. Either way, the schools themselves never have to take any responsibility for the people that are suppose to be representing them. Furthermore, being lenient isn't going to somehow magically create a new magnifying glass on child molestation. What would make other schools be very wary of how children are taken care of under their watch is showing that if you get caught with something like this, it's not a slap on the wrist. It's a b!tch-smack across the face. Heavy fines, loss of tv revenue, sanctions are what accomplish that.

I want to remind you, the crime that happened under the watch of the school is the worst crime imaginable. It was institutionally allowed as well. So if there is ever a time to tear a school back down to it's foundation and rebuild, it's with this.

So I have to ask, and I mean this seriously, do you feel that there is any situation where a school should have to get the severe punishments that we are calling for?

 

[Zwidmanio]

No we're getting off topic though. Back to Penn State, I think the NCAA needs to make an example of them, but not in the way most are suggesting. Most people are calling for very severe, debilitating sanctions in order to warn others not to do things like this. My opinion is that if we as a society really need sanctions and punishments to remind people not to cover up a horrific child molestation scandal, we're so far gone that we're never coming back. Instead, use the massive magnifying glass hovering over State College as a way to show what a football program should be. Allow Penn St to rebuild the right way and be an example of how to learn from your terrible mistakes and become better from them (under NCAA sanctions of course, just not the program-destroying ones some are suggesting).

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but I simply don't understand. You're saying that the NCAA should make an example out of Penn State for the horrific child-molestations and subsequent cover up by turning them into an awesome football program?

It's not the NCAA's purpose to create great football programs that do things the way they should be. That's the job of the universities that join the NCAA. The NCAA is there to make sure programs follow the rules and to promote equal footing amongst universities to do so. Propping Penn State up at a moment when they haven't been following some very important rules that all civilized members of society understand would be absurd.

 

[irishroo]

I understand what you're saying, but I think that you're missing part of the puzzle. The problem with the NCAA is jurisdiction. They have no jurisdiction over any player or coach once that individual is no longer associated with a university. The following only addresses a small part of the problem, but I would like for the NCAA to be more proactive in preventing coaches that have committed violations from just running to another school to avoid penalty. As far as I'm aware, this doesn't really happen or it doesn't happen enough. Once again though, this doesn't solve the problem of jurisdiction once a coach (Carrol) or a player (Bush) leaves for the NFL and I doubt that there will be much of a push to allow NCAA sanctions to follow any person into the NFL, although there were some minor self-sanctions (seemingly) with Tressel upon his recent move if I recall correctly.

Further back I was one of the ones that made a point about deterrence and I think that you're misunderstanding exactly what kind of entity is supposed to be deterred. As discussed above, sure, individuals don't have as much at stake when dealing with NCAA sanctions since they can always abandon the confines of the umbrella of NCAA jurisdiction, which is why it is incumbent upon the institutions that hire these individuals to make sure that they're performing their job within the voluntarily accepted rules of the NCAA. Hence, the "lack of institutional control" being the mother of all possible NCAA violations.

While I certainly agree that there should be more individual accountability, you need to be able to hold the larger institutions accountable too or else you'd be dealing with the converse of the problem you're addressing above; if only the individuals are sanctioned, then the institutions/universities could encourage their employees to commit rules violations and then merely jettison them as soon as a problem arises and be able to avoid sanctions. It's the nature of a penalty to a larger institution that people may be negatively affected indirectly. It's not a perfect world, but these penalties need to be given from time to time and I can't think of a better time than now with Penn State.

Really good post, I agree with pretty much all of your points. I know the issue with the NCAA is jurisdiction and I know there's really nothing they can do about it, but I guess I just really hate Pete Carroll and needed to vent it out. That being said, NCAA absolutely has jurisdiction over guys like John Calipari. How that man still has a job in college basketball is beyond me.

The last paragraph of your post brings this to light in a way I'd never thought about. I always think of coaches screwing over schools, but you're totally correct in that what I'm suggesting could lead to simply schools screwing over coaches.

Are we all in agreement that, at the very least, current PSU players should be able to transfer without penalty (assuming the sanctions are as bad as we think they will be)?

 

[ChiRish]

You're right, which is why the NCAA needs to totally change the way they operate. Employ policies that are preventative rather then punitive, that give coaches and ADs real reasons (ie ones that affect them personally and not just the school) to be honest and maybe we'll start to see some change for the better.

No we're getting off topic though. Back to Penn State, I think the NCAA needs to make an example of them, but not in the way most are suggesting. Most people are calling for very severe, debilitating sanctions in order to warn others not to do things like this. My opinion is that if we as a society really need sanctions and punishments to remind people not to cover up a horrific child molestation scandal, we're so far gone that we're never coming back. Instead, use the massive magnifying glass hovering over State College as a way to show what a football program should be. Allow Penn St to rebuild the right way and be an example of how to learn from your terrible mistakes and become better from them (under NCAA sanctions of course, just not the program-destroying ones some are suggesting).

Deterrence is supposed to be, and designed to be, one of the most effective forms of preventative measures. It's why it serves a major purpose in the philosophy and punishment of criminal acts. The point of punishing the university here is to deter any other universities from (a) allowing a football program to exert dominant control over university policy; (b) force a university to accept it's duty to be accountable for the actions of its employees; and more than anything (c), report any semblance of any conduct that could be deemed criminal.

Try to understand that they leave these players an out - they'll be able to transfer without sitting out for a year. But the entity that allowed for the problem in the first place will be punished accordingly. If the penalties are severe enough, you think this situation would happen again? That's the whole point.

This goes for coaches too - if this type of punishment forces university officials to stop bending over and listening to everything powerful football coaches do and say, it will potentially lessen the impact that their negative conduct would have on the school as a whole. Sure, they can cut and run to the NFL, but their reputation and job security in college football would severely damaged and limited.

I just don't see any reason to think the NCAA shouldn't come down hard. I just don't get it. Simply put - a man who dominated a university through his status as football coach exerted his influence to cover up heinous crimes, with university officials participating in the same. And we shouldn't punish this university and football program hard for this? Really?

 

[ChiRish]

The NCAA is sending a message. Who knows if they follow it up in later actions in unrelated cases, but there is no doubt that the NCAA is getting sick of the severe lack of control universities have over their football programs.

This is the perfect opportunity for the NCAA to drop the hammer and remind schools that these programs are part of academic institutions, and that the integrity of these institutions takes over the football program all day, every day.

It's college football, remember?

 

[Zwidmanio]

Are we all in agreement that, at the very least, current PSU players should be able to transfer without penalty (assuming the sanctions are as bad as we think they will be)?

I, for one, couldn't agree more. Even if the sanctions weren't that severe I would consider allowing non-penalty transfers acceptable; simply because I personally couldn't imagine being comfortable in an environment that allowed for a culture to grow to the point where such horrific transgressions occurred and then have that followed up by an equally distasteful display of Joe Pa apologists. Of course, I'm not blinded by love or loyalty, so if a player would want to stick with it, more power to them. I wouldn't think any less of them, but I personally couldn't imagine.

 

[irishroo]

This is what I am not getting. The current rules are preventative instead of punitive and they do already punish the AD's/Coaches. That's why schools don't care if they hired Gordon Gee and Tressel before, because they will just fire them and hire Urban Meyer. You are calling for the status-quo and saying its some kind of new idea.

You are calling for leniency, not one in which a magnifying glass is put on the mistakes. What would do that is to send a shot across the bow with sever sanctions that make other school's administration think twice about who they hire and force them to look in the mirror regarding their own policies. The current state of college athletics is one where you are either really good, you cheat or you get fired for one of the two. Either way, the schools themselves never have to take any responsibility for the people that are suppose to be representing them. Furthermore, being lenient isn't going to somehow magically create a new magnifying glass on child molestation. What would make other schools be very wary of how children are taken care of under their watch is showing that if you get caught with something like this, it's not a slap on the wrist. It's a b!tch-smack across the face. Heavy fines, loss of tv revenue, sanctions are what accomplish that.

I want to remind you, the crime that happened under the watch of the school is the worst crime imaginable. It was institutionally allowed as well. So if there is ever a time to tear a school back down to it's foundation and rebuild, it's with this.

So I have to ask, and I mean this seriously, do you feel that there is any situation where a school should have to get the severe punishments that we are calling for?

Another good post. I hope everyone excuses my "good post" in every response, but this is probably the only forum on the internet I've come across where people can actually have a conversation without resort to name calling/douchebaggery.

With regards to your question, yes I do think there are plenty of instances where a school should get these severe punishments, but in all of those cases the sanctions would be a result of actual football activities that directly affect the competitiveness of the game. I think the NCAA should for the most part stick to sports and let the criminal justice system deal with people like Jerry Sandusky. Certainly the NCAA needs to keep a very close eye on PSU and make sure they never again lose control like they did here, but death/life in prison is much more effective as a deterrent than loss of scholarships.

 

[Andy in Sactown]

Do u think nd would be interested in any psu recruits?

I bet they have a few corners on their roster..

 

[IrishLax]

90 minutes until **** hits the fan. $100mil vBucks and reps to whomever does a quick photoshop of a Terminator 3: Judgement Day poster for this presser.

 

[irishog77]

T 2 was Judgement Day, wasn't it? Regardless, I'd like to see that too!

 

[Irishbounty28]

This poster?

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

There is supposedly suppose to be additional punishments handed down from the Big10 after the announcement. If there is indeed a large monetary punishment handed down from the NCAA (likely), then it would be hard for the BIG10 to do the same without dipping into their own coffers.

Furthermore, if the NCAA gives PSU a tv ban for more than one season, then every team in the BIG10 that was on PSU's schedule will losing one of their televised games.


So, if we are trying to read tea leaves here.... I think the possibility is there.

Is the Big 10 issuing their punishment today too? If so, does anybody know what time and if it will be televised?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Ohio State sanctions 2.0

Thennnnnnn they're gonna hit the school. Good thing their endowment is at an all time high of $1.83 billion.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Is the Big 10 issuing their punishment today too? If so, does anybody know what time and if it will be televised?

Yes they are, no other details I have seen other than they will be.

 

[irishknight35]

Here comes the hammer...conference now starting.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

$60 million, 4 year post season ban. Vacate wins from 1998-2001.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

20 schollys each year for four years.


Holy sh*t.

 

[Rack Em]

Wow, when did the NCAA sac up?

20 a year is ****ing nuts. Bradley has his work cut out for him.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Wowsers. Dropped the hammer.

 

[Kingbish01]

WOW

 

[IrishLax]

4 year post season ban = bye bye to every recruit with meaningful other offers.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

I would definitely call the penalties "unprecedented."

 

[tussin]

20 schollys each year for four years.


Holy sh*t.

15 schollys

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

There seems to be some confusion over the scholarship numbers some are saying it is a reduction of 10 every year for 4 years. Still unclear to me...

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

20 schollys each year for four years.


Holy sh*t.

I thought the scholarships went from 25 per year down to 15. 10 scholarships per year for 4 years.

 

[Emcee77]

I read 10 schollies this year, 20 total over 4 years

Penn State hit with $60 million fine, 4-year bowl ban, wins dating to 1998 - ESPN

 

[Irish4Life09]

Goodbye Penn State.

 

[Rocket's Rocket Fan]

There seems to be some confusion over the scholarship numbers some are saying it is a reduction of 10 every year for 4 years. Still unclear to me...

I thought I heard the NCAA pres say 15, but I just woke up so I wasn't totally awake when I heard that.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Goodbye Penn State.

They're going to end up like the weak teams they used to run the score up on.