Oversigning Recruits

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Me2SouthBend

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Ok, I had to come back to add this. It is an excerpt from the link in the OP from oversigning.com. I encourage you to go back and read the article as if you needed another source to show what consistently goes on in that steaming pile of brown stuff that is the $EC. 7 of the 10 worst offenders are in the $EC.

From the article Re. Alabama:

"Class sizes: 2007—25; 2008—32; 2009—27; 2010—29 for a total of 113.

113 kids is 28 over the limit, which equates to having a whole separate recruiting class signed to your school. Plus, the Tide have taken the least amount of JUCOs of these top offenders—on average, one per class—so there's no sense arguing that the possible roster numbers are inflated.

The Tide are the most high-profile school guilty of oversigning players for four reasons: 1) because of the impassioned defense of the practice by the Alabama fanbase; 2) because of the well-publicized number of shady transfers and team dismissals; 3) because of Nick Saban's colorful reaction to inquiries regarding oversigning (namely, browbeating reporters into submission, which, in his defense, he does for all inquiries), and 4) because they've been the most successful school to do so."
 

Bishop2b5

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Saban, Clemens, Sosa, Bonds and Brady Anderson have never cheated. I mean they've never been caught so obviously they've never cheated.

So by your argument, anyone who denies cheating must be cheating since that's how it was with Clemens, Sosa, Bonds, etc. Sorry, but no. All that proves is that a denial of cheating doesn't mean you aren't.

I've demonstrated very clearly why your claims of Saban misusing medical hardships are almost certainly not true (none of the players put on medical hardship were ever able to find a doctor who said their injuries weren't career ending) and have simply asked you to provide concrete examples of other cheating instead of just making broad, sweeping claims without support. You've been unable to.

Am I positive I'm right and Bama & Saban are squeaky clean? No. I believe I am, have a lot of evidence that they are, and haven't seen anything remotely compelling enough to convince me otherwise, but I'm open to any further evidence. I don't believe you are. You appear to be so emotionally invested in this and need it to be so to such a degree that you have made up your mind, are determined to interpret any and all facts to fit your conclusion, are unwilling to even consider anything that doesn't support that conclusion, and get mad when your opinion is challenged.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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LOL! No, I'm not hired by the university nor by anyone else to defend Bama. It's much simpler than that. I'm just a fan who got tired of people constantly insulting my school with little or no evidence to back up their claims. I challenged them to provide any actual evidence or concrete examples and they couldn't. I offered valid and logical reasons why their assumptions were very unlikely to be true. They got mad when their opinion was challenged and they were unable to come up with anything more than "But we know it must be true" and personal attacks ("You went to a third rate school" or "You're an Updyke" or "Your region can't read and write because you're obsessed with football" lol), which is a dead giveaway they'd lost the battle of ideas and had nothing else to fall back on.

Believe it or not, I'm actually a very nice, decent guy who tries to be honest and fair with everyone. Notice that in yesterday's debates my responses to those who were civil and tried to discuss things reasonably were always civil, polite, and reasonable. I never insulted ND in any way at all (I have great respect and admiration for ND and no need to stoop to that level). Those who chose to be pompous, insulting, uncivil, and resorted to personal attacks when they couldn't back up their claims and had their opnions challenged were another story, though. I do not suffer fools kindly and I have little tolerance for those who spin and twist the facts to try and make them fit a conclusion.

As for the Hates Oversigning tagline, I didn't do that. I assume a mod added that as a little joke.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Nobody is entitled to their own facts.

Bishop, a chara,

There is a lot of that going around lately, apparently.

Amen

The tagline thing, is and has always been a goodnatured ribbing sort of thing. Or a sign of respect.

Beir bua agus beannacht,

Bogs

(having an evidenitary conversation about anybody cheating is about as much of a swing and a miss as talking about the great job the NCAA is doing policing schools.)
 
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Bogtrotter07

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So by your argument, anyone who denies cheating must be cheating since that's how it was with Clemens, Sosa, Bonds, etc. Sorry, but no. All that proves is that a denial of cheating doesn't mean you aren't.

I've demonstrated very clearly why your claims of Saban misusing medical hardships are almost certainly not true (none of the players put on medical hardship were ever able to find a doctor who said their injuries weren't career ending) and have simply asked you to provide concrete examples of other cheating instead of just making broad, sweeping claims without support. You've been unable to.

Am I positive I'm right and Bama & Saban are squeaky clean? No. I believe I am, have a lot of evidence that they are, and haven't seen anything remotely compelling enough to convince me otherwise, but I'm open to any further evidence. I don't believe you are. You appear to be so emotionally invested in this and need it to be so to such a degree that you have made up your mind, are determined to interpret any and all facts to fit your conclusion, are unwilling to even consider anything that doesn't support that conclusion, and get mad when your opinion is challenged.


I can tell you, Saban has never been "squeaky clean"; not since before the days of pumping gas for his daddy.
 

chubler

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We're definitely asking for Bishop's opinion on 2 or 3 things at once right now. Most of you are FAR more respected than I am (goes without saying) but I'd like to suggest that we let him somewhat comprehensively establish his opinion on either:

the moral comparison between our two programs on the issues we all agree are technically within the rules and the law (the gist of my obnoxiously long post above)

OR

the question of whether Saban is actually violating the letter of the law or an NCAA regulation

and then hash it out over one issue at a time. Otherwise I think he's forced to jump back and forth between two completely different issues requiring different arguments in the same posts.

(also, if anyone's got connections upstairs at ND, can you pull some strings so I can discuss this in my freshman philosophy? definitely using the same arguments up in here...)
 

Bishop2b5

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Ok, I had to come back to add this. It is an excerpt from the link in the OP from oversigning.com. I encourage you to go back and read the article as if you needed another source to show what consistently goes on in that steaming pile of brown stuff that is the $EC. 7 of the 10 worst offenders are in the $EC.

From the article Re. Alabama:

"Class sizes: 2007—25; 2008—32; 2009—27; 2010—29 for a total of 113.

113 kids is 28 over the limit, which equates to having a whole separate recruiting class signed to your school. Plus, the Tide have taken the least amount of JUCOs of these top offenders—on average, one per class—so there's no sense arguing that the possible roster numbers are inflated.

The Tide are the most high-profile school guilty of oversigning players for four reasons: 1) because of the impassioned defense of the practice by the Alabama fanbase; 2) because of the well-publicized number of shady transfers and team dismissals; 3) because of Nick Saban's colorful reaction to inquiries regarding oversigning (namely, browbeating reporters into submission, which, in his defense, he does for all inquiries), and 4) because they've been the most successful school to do so."

You really just don't get it, do you? You've quoted a source saying Bama signed 102 during that period. Next, you quoted a source saying 106. Now it's 113. Do you have a clue what is really happening, what the actual numbers are, or anything else? Do you not realize that signing and awarding scholarships are two different things, and that you haven't gotten your numbers right yet and don't know what the ones your quoting even mean? It's this sort of mushy, confused, frantic, desperate to post something negative about Bama without checking your facts approach that has me shaking my head at you and wondering how you can go through life forming your opinions this way!

I asked you yesterday when you posted some number you'd found on a blog to explain to me how Bama or any school could've given scholarships to that many kids without the NCAA stepping in, but you couldn't. It was a hint to you that your numbers were wrong. You were counting counting LOI's, not actual scholarships awarded.

The comment from the article you quoted above is exactly what I've been hammering you for: "because of the well-publicized number of shady transfers and team dismissals." You apparently think this constitutes proof. OK, name a player involved in a shady transfer or team dismissal. Name one put on medical hardship who shouldn't have been. See? It's one thing to scream, "They're cheating!" or "Shady deals!" or "Roster management" and quite another to actually provide a real example of it.

You've got some people who are just tired of Bama winning right now, and that's understandable, but they're blaming it on cheating because that's easier on their ego than the alternatives. You have a lot of "I believe they're cheating because everybody else is saying it" and not a bit of actual evidence or concrete examples.
 

Bishop2b5

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I can tell you, Saban has never been "squeaky clean"; not since before the days of pumping gas for his daddy.

Could be, but why so much difficulty finding a legit example showing he isn't? Just saying it over and over proves nothing. Show me. Show me something other than "Well some blogger says he isn't" (and he couldn't give a concrete example either). You guys would get absolutely slaughtered in a court room!

"Your honor, this man's a thief."

"What did he steal?"

"We didn't actually catch him stealing, but we know he is."

"So how do you know he's a thief?"

"We just do! Everybody says so!"

"Have you caught him stealing anything? Got any evidence he has?"

"Well, no, but he's a thief! We just know it!"

"Case dismissed."
 

Bishop2b5

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We're definitely asking for Bishop's opinion on 2 or 3 things at once right now. Most of you are FAR more respected than I am (goes without saying) but I'd like to suggest that we let him somewhat comprehensively establish his opinion on either:

the moral comparison between our two programs on the issues we all agree are technically within the rules and the law (the gist of my obnoxiously long post above)

OR

the question of whether Saban is actually violating the letter of the law or an NCAA regulation

and then hash it out over one issue at a time. Otherwise I think he's forced to jump back and forth between two completely different issues requiring different arguments in the same posts.

(also, if anyone's got connections upstairs at ND, can you pull some strings so I can discuss this in my freshman philosophy? definitely using the same arguments up in here...)

Thank you, sir. I'll do my best to quickly answer. And good luck in the philosophy class. I hated freshman philosophy, but that's just me.
 
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PraetorianND

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We're definitely asking for Bishop's opinion on 2 or 3 things at once right now. Most of you are FAR more respected than I am (goes without saying) but I'd like to suggest that we let him somewhat comprehensively establish his opinion on either:

the moral comparison between our two programs on the issues we all agree are technically within the rules and the law (the gist of my obnoxiously long post above)

OR

the question of whether Saban is actually violating the letter of the law or an NCAA regulation

and then hash it out over one issue at a time. Otherwise I think he's forced to jump back and forth between two completely different issues requiring different arguments in the same posts.

(also, if anyone's got connections upstairs at ND, can you pull some strings so I can discuss this in my freshman philosophy? definitely using the same arguments up in here...)

I can answer the latter question for you. NO, he's not violating the letter of NCAA regulation (there is no law, federal or state, that applies here). Is he violating the spirit of the rules? Probably but it's debatable (why we've been debating).

To your first question, I don't think anyone on here posed that question specifically and I think it should be left alone because it is far too complicated, emotional, and ultimately subjective to answer properly.

I'd rather just talk about the practice and leave ND and Bama out of it completely if possible.
 
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PraetorianND

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I definitely see your side and agree. Very much in line with what I said earlier about it being a very complicated issue and valid points on both sides. As Rocky and I discussed earlier in the thread, cutting a kid because his talent level never develops is one thing. Cutting him because he has talent but isn't giving sufficient effort is something else. In the latter case, you could very easily argue the kid isn't holding up his end of the agreement. I wouldn't cut a kid for lack of talent, but would cut a player for lack of effort, but only as a last resort.

It's a lot like an academic scholarship. If you work hard, keep your grades up, and hold up your end of the agreement, the school probably has a moral obligation to continue providing you with that academic scholly. However, if you don't and your grades drop, you've failed to keep your end of the agreement and the school has every right to pull your scholarship and give it to a student who will.

This is the moral issue I have trouble with. Lack of effort is VERY subjective. I think back to that Minnesota WR who got **** on by Kill because coach Kill decided he was a bad apple essentially. Was he a bad apple? Possibly, we don't really know. But we do know he was playing through a serious injury and that injury wasn't being taken seriously by the staff so they essentially hammered him until he quit. Obviously that is one side of the story but it just tells me that it's really, really hard to determine what "sufficient effort" is. ND has had a bunch of guys not do well their first couple of years and then blossom later. TJ Jones for example was invisible (dealing with his father's death) and now is a stud and a leader.

It just kills me when these coaches don't follow through. If a kid isn't putting out 100% effort it is partially on them too as coaches. It is their job to get the most out of these players. I think back to Blue Mountain State and Alex Moran and he is a great case of a kid who doesn't care at all and should be cut. However, that's a show and I doubt there are too many kids like that on a team.
 
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Me2SouthBend

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You really just don't get it, do you? You've quoted a source saying Bama signed 102 during that period. Next, you quoted a source saying 106. Now it's 113. Do you have a clue what is really happening, what the actual numbers are, or anything else? Do you not realize that signing and awarding scholarships are two different things, and that you haven't gotten your numbers right yet and don't know what the ones your quoting even mean? It's this sort of mushy, confused, frantic, desperate to post something negative about Bama without checking your facts approach that has me shaking my head at you and wondering how you can go through life forming your opinions this way!

I asked you yesterday when you posted some number you'd found on a blog to explain to me how Bama or any school could've given scholarships to that many kids without the NCAA stepping in, but you couldn't. It was a hint to you that your numbers were wrong. You were counting counting LOI's, not actual scholarships awarded.

The comment from the article you quoted above is exactly what I've been hammering you for: "because of the well-publicized number of shady transfers and team dismissals." You apparently think this constitutes proof. OK, name a player involved in a shady transfer or team dismissal. Name one put on medical hardship who shouldn't have been. See? It's one thing to scream, "They're cheating!" or "Shady deals!" or "Roster management" and quite another to actually provide a real example of it.

You've got some people who are just tired of Bama winning right now, and that's understandable, but they're blaming it on cheating because that's easier on their ego than the alternatives. You have a lot of "I believe they're cheating because everybody else is saying it" and not a bit of actual evidence or concrete examples.

The 102 (low water mark) was the most recent 4 classes and was from Scout not some blog. The 113 is from the article I cited and was '07-'10. Not sure where I listed 106. I'm not just grasping at straws and I know the difference between LOI's and kids getting schollies. You refuse to acknowledge the numbers and the evidence that is provided. I didn't write the article, nor did I create a website (oversigning.com) that apparently was created w the $EC in mind. You have clearly turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the situation (I'd call it a problem but you'd scoff at that as well).

Cheating fills many forms. If oversigning isn't cheating but rather unethical then maybe you are willing to split that hair, I'm not. Would you go so far as to admit Bama players (and others in the $EC) are receiving impermissable benefits? No? Are there good explanations then for the Richardson SUV or the shirt signings in the mens clothing store? Just curious. You can continue to bury your head in the sand about the shady sh*t that goes on in your conference, that's your perogative. I don't hate the $EC because of its success, I hate it because it doesn't play by the same rules as so many other schools in the country.
 

irishtrain

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Me2South Bend-very well said. I couldnt keep my composure long enogh to be so eloquint. Non of us hate the sec/Alabama because of on field success. Their good-$#@^ they should be.
 

Bishop2b5

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I dont think this discussion is going anywhere fast. It seems to me that the general consensus on this board (and I'd suspect among ND fans across the world) is that the first priority is to do right by (educated and prepare for a successful life) every young man who agrees to attend the University of Notre Dame by signing an LOI, and winning football is second to that priority.

My impression so far is that Bishop is of the opinion that although a few young men MIGHT get shafted in the process, the negatives for those young men are outweighed by the resulting positives for the University of Alabama and its fans, community, and state.

Bishop, I think our question for you is this (brace yourself gonna be a long one):

Notre Dame attempts to hold itself to a very high standard academically and ethically. As far as recruiting goes, that means that Brian Kelly can't sign a recruit, no matter how talented, unless the admissions office decides that in their independent judgement, that player will be able to handle the pressure/rigors of Notre Dame academically, socially, and spiritually and graduate in a standard four-year timeframe, taking into account the added pressure and added support systems that go along with being a member of the football team at ND. That also means that once a recruit is promised a spot (even verbally), he will not be pushed out to allow a more highly rated player to take his place. Once he accepts the offer, ND will follow through on its end of the agreement, leading to ND not carrying a full 85 scholarship athletes ever in the past 3 or 4 years. (It's important to note that ND considers any scholarship offer to be a 4-year commitment to that individual)

Alabama, like any big-time football school not called Notre Dame, has a different set of pressures: Academics are generally less rigorous, there are no parietals and dorms can be mixed-gender (which may or may not be a good thing for a specific student athlete), etc. You would know more about that than me. However, due to less stringent academic standards, Saban can accept a verbal or an LOI that Kelly never could, from players who in some cases have no business being accepted to an institution of higher education, despite their athletic excellence. He can also accept commitments (make agreements) and then back out on them in order to take another commitment (make a new agreement) which will be more advantageous to the University of Alabama. He can also offer a recruit a 'greyshirt', which you, I, and Nick Saban all know the player is statistically not likely to turn into a scholarship, in order to entice a player to join his team. Among the other examples that have been rehashed over and over in this thread, he can also end the agreement between the school and the player, although I think most reasonable people would agree that recruits assume they will receive a scholarship for 4 years, regardless of how many times they are informed otherwise.

So, regardless of Nick Saban and Alabama's complete innocence by legal and NCAA standards (following the letter of the law, as some have stated), do you think that there is an ethical or moral difference in the way the two schools run their football programs? Is one program conducting itself in a way that is morally superior to the other, or are they different but no better than the other?

First, hats off to you for a very clear, insightful, and well-written summing up of the issue being discussed.

Second, I would correct one small thing you said. You said that grayshirts are unlikely to ever actually get their scholarship. Not so. In fact, unless the grayshirted player decides himself to pursue another school, all of them do at Bama. I've never heard of the coaching staff ever not giving a grayshirt his scholarship as promised the following year as long as the player still wanted it.

Now for your questions, I have enormous respect for ND and the standards they try to live up to and instill in their students as both an institute of higher learning and as a football program. I'm aware that due to those standards, Kelly has a tougher challenge than the coaches at virtually every other school. It's a very noble, honorable, and admirable standard and approach. In a perfect world, every school would take the same approach and have the same standards. We'd all be doctors, our kids would all be brilliant, and everyone would have a Mercedes and live in a great neighborhood. However, it's not a perfect world.

Not every good football player comes from a comfortable home where education was stressed. A lot of those kids come from hell holes and never had anyone to guide them or help them reach their potential. Sports is their only lifeline and a coach or school who'll give them a chance and provide them with the opportunity and guidance they need is their only hope. Not everyone is lucky enough to be a Barrett Jones on Manti Teo and be blessed with that sort of intelligence and born into a family that nourishes it. Most of those kids that grow up in a housing project or other such environment aren't as fortunate as Trent Richardson was to have a mom who stayed on him 24/7 and kept him out of trouble and made him capable of then pulling a high gpa in a tough field.

Notre Dame may not be for all those kids. There's certainly a place for a ND who only takes the best and the brghtest and holds them to the highest standard. There's also a place for public universities too, though. They offer an opportunity for a good education to those kids who haven't had the fortune to be blessed with genius IQ's or an enriching environment, but who want to better themselves and make the most of their abilities and opportunities.

That applies to the athletes too. For many of them, this is their best chance to better their lives, to escape poverty, to get an education and move up in the world and improve the lot of their families. I can think of dozens of examples of kids who were the first in their family to ever go to college. Kids who grew up in grinding poverty and used a school like Bama to raise themselves out of it. Kids who'd never had anyone show them the way and never had two nickels to rub together who used football at a place like Alabama to learn maturity and hard work, and then turned their education into a lucrative career or their football talent into NFL riches.

I will freely admit ND's academics are superior to Bama's in general, though not in all specific categories (Bama has some outstanding programs). I will say that academics at Bama and for our football team are MUCH better than many of you seem to believe, though. Bama has more National Merit Scholarship winners than any other public university in the country and trails only 4 private universities. We attract quite a few Ivy League alumni for several of our graduate programs. Many of our graduates win pulitzers, write books that become academy award winning films, get accepted into elite grad schools, and do quite well wherever they go or whatever field they go into, just like graduates from many other good universities do. The same can be said of our athletic program. The national female scholar athletes of the year for the past two years were a Bama golfer and Bama gymnast.

Despite the perception or stereotype, we aren't some football factory for dumb jocks either. Our players graduate at a level well above the national average, and our team's APR and gpa are also very good. At any given time, roughly 25% of all our players already have their degree and are in grad school. We've produced more 1st Team Academic All-Americans over the past 5 years than the the next two football teams combined, and had a Rhodes finalist and a Campbell winner. That's nothing to sneeze at. Is our team as a whole as talented in the classroom as ND's or Stanford's? Probably not, but it's also not nearly as far behind as some would like to believe.

Every school can't be Notre Dame. It's not a perfect world. Not every school can be held to that same standard of only admitting the elite of the elite. There aren't enough elite to go around for all 120 D1 schools. There's a need for places where the rest can get an opportunity to get a good education. There's a need for places where the player who hasn't had a great HS education or parents who pushed them to excel academically but is willing to work hard, can catch up to the rest of us and have a chance to enjoy all the world has to offer. Not every school can be ND and not everyone is able or at least ready to meet ND's standards, but would you want to shut down those schools and the opportunities they provide or tell those other kids they shouldn't play football at any place less than ND?

So to answer your question, yes there is a difference in the moral or ethical standards. There's also a difference in the missions and goals. Do I admire what ND is doing? Sure. Do I wish every school could do the same? Of course, but they can't. You chose this course. There's something very noble and admirable about it, and that's part of what makes you who you are, but be understanding of the fact that there isn't room for 120 ND's and not every school can follow that same exact formula and still accomplish their goals. Many of the rest of us are working with a different set of circumstances and trying to meet the needs of a different set of students.
 

Bishop2b5

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The 102 (low water mark) was the most recent 4 classes and was from Scout not some blog. The 113 is from the article I cited and was '07-'10. Not sure where I listed 106. I'm not just grasping at straws and I know the difference between LOI's and kids getting schollies. You refuse to acknowledge the numbers and the evidence that is provided. I didn't write the article, nor did I create a website (oversigning.com) that apparently was created w the $EC in mind. You have clearly turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the situation (I'd call it a problem but you'd scoff at that as well).

Cheating fills many forms. If oversigning isn't cheating but rather unethical then maybe you are willing to split that hair, I'm not. Would you go so far as to admit Bama players (and others in the $EC) are receiving impermissable benefits? No? Are there good explanations then for the Richardson SUV or the shirt signings in the mens clothing store? Just curious. You can continue to bury your head in the sand about the shady sh*t that goes on in your conference, that's your perogative. I don't hate the $EC because of its success, I hate it because it doesn't play by the same rules as so many other schools in the country.

I really don't care if Bama, ND, UGA, or any other school has signed 13, 113 or 1013 players over he last 4 number of years. I care that they abided by the NCAA rules, didn't award scholarships to more than the rules allowed, stayed within the limit of 85, and didn't mistreat any players in doing any of it. Now I know you'll say Bama did all that except the last part, but again, you are completely unable to provide a single concrete example of such. Until you do, it's just opinion and speculation and wishful thinking.

As for Richardson, he provided proof to the university of how he bought his vehicle and they passed that on to the NCAA, who were satisfied. It wasn't a new $50k Yukon as those with an agenda claimed. It was an older and very used one worth a fraction of that cost and paid for by several family members who pooled their money to help him out until he got to the NFL. Hardly an uncommon occurrence for a college football player and nothing nefarious. The incident with players signing autographs at a clothing store was stupid on the part of the players, but not exactly a major infraction. The university told them to stop, ordered the clothing store owner to cease and desist from all contact with its players, provided all details to the NCAA, and the NCAA didn't deem it worth any further action. They deal with hundreds of small violations like that every year. OSU didn't get in trouble because Pryor got some free tattoos. They got hammered because they tried to cover it up and lied to the NCAA about it. If the school doesn't try to cover up a minor infraction, is open & honest about it, and takes reasonable steps to address the problem, the NCAA is usually satisfied. This is just another case of you so eager to find dirt and make it into something it isn't. As much as the NCAA has looked at us the past several years, and with all the pressure from others to find something, don't you think they would've if there was something really there?

I feel sorry for you in a way. You are absolutely obsessed with all this for whatever reason. You still continue to scream "They're cheating" no matter how little credible evidence. I don't really care why. That's your issue to deal with. In the meantime, we'll continue to play by the NCAA rules whether you like those rules or not. You clearly think they're unethical, but they're the rules that the NCAA and its member institutions have enacted. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them unethical.

Our coach follows the rules. His players and former players rave about how he treats them and the positive effect he's had on their lives. He holds them to a very high standard on the field and in the classroom, graduates a well above average number of them, and has a well below average number of them get in any trouble. I can live with that.
 
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Me2SouthBend

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I really don't care if Bama, ND, UGA, or any other school has signed 13, 113 or 1013 players over he last 4 number of years. I care that they abided by the NCAA rules, didn't award scholarships to more than the rules allowed, stayed within the limit of 85, and didn't mistreat any players in doing any of it. Now I know you'll say Bama did all that except the last part, but again, you are completely unable to provide a single concrete example of such. Until you do, it's just opinion and speculation and wishful thinking.

As for Richardson, he provided proof to the university of how he bought his vehicle and they passed that on to the NCAA, who were satisfied. It wasn't a new $50k Yukon as those with an agenda claimed. It was an older and very used one worth a fraction of that cost and paid for by several family members who pooled their money to help him out until he got to the NFL. Hardly an uncommon occurrence for a college football player and nothing nefarious. The incident with players signing autographs at a clothing store was stupid on the part of the players, but not exactly a major infraction. The university told them to stop, ordered the clothing store owner to cease and desist from all contact with its players, provided all details to the NCAA, and the NCAA didn't deem it worth any further action. They deal with hundreds of small violations like that every year. OSU didn't get in trouble because Pryor got some free tattoos. They got hammered because they tried to cover it up and lied to the NCAA about it. If the school doesn't try to cover up a minor infraction, is open & honest about it, and takes reasonable steps to address the problem, the NCAA is usually satisfied. This is just another case of you so eager to find dirt and make it into something it isn't. As much as the NCAA has looked at us the past several years, and with all the pressure from others to find something, don't you think they would've if there was something really there?

I feel sorry for you in a way. You are absolutely obsessed with all this for whatever reason. You still continue to scream "They're cheating" no matter how little credible evidence. I don't really care why. That's your issue to deal with. In the meantime, we'll continue to play by the NCAA rules whether you like those rules or not. You clearly think they're unethical, but they're the rules that the NCAA and its member institutions have enacted. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them unethical.

Our coach follows the rules. His players and former players rave about how he treats them and the positive effect he's had on their lives. He holds them to a very high standard on the field and in the classroom, graduates a well above average number of them, and has a well below average number of them get in any trouble. I can live with that.

You feel sorry for me? I laugh at that statement. I suppose sCam Newton and Auburn didn't cheat either, I mean after all he never got caught. Such an obsession.
 

Bishop2b5

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The tagline thing, is and has always been a goodnatured ribbing sort of thing. Or a sign of respect.

(having an evidenitary conversation about anybody cheating is about as much of a swing and a miss as talking about the great job the NCAA is doing policing schools.)

I thought the "Hates oversigning" tagline was funny and took it as just a friendly tweak or good-natured ribbing.

You're right about the entire conversation being more or less pointless. Mental execise and honing of debate skills is about all it is now. I do thank all of you for the discussion though and am ready to move on. As a great philosopher once said, "And that's all I got to say about that."
 

IrishSteelhead

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Bishop ,

It was me that changed your title to "Hates Oversigning." I was just giving you a hard time, and respect the fact that you maintain yourself with grace and dignity on this board amidst the debate. I strongly disagree with your opinion on the matter, but enjoy reading your perspective nonetheless.
 

IrishLax

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First, hats off to you for a very clear, insightful, and well-written summing up of the issue being discussed.

Second, I would correct one small thing you said. You said that grayshirts are unlikely to ever actually get their scholarship. Not so. In fact, unless the grayshirted player decides himself to pursue another school, all of them do at Bama. I've never heard of the coaching staff ever not giving a grayshirt his scholarship as promised the following year as long as the player still wanted it.

Now for your questions, I have enormous respect for ND and the standards they try to live up to and instill in their students as both an institute of higher learning and as a football program. I'm aware that due to those standards, Kelly has a tougher challenge than the coaches at virtually every other school. It's a very noble, honorable, and admirable standard and approach. In a perfect world, every school would take the same approach and have the same standards. We'd all be doctors, our kids would all be brilliant, and everyone would have a Mercedes and live in a great neighborhood. However, it's not a perfect world.

Not every good football player comes from a comfortable home where education was stressed. A lot of those kids come from hell holes and never had anyone to guide them or help them reach their potential. Sports is their only lifeline and a coach or school who'll give them a chance and provide them with the opportunity and guidance they need is their only hope. Not everyone is lucky enough to be a Barrett Jones on Manti Teo and be blessed with that sort of intelligence and born into a family that nourishes it. Most of those kids that grow up in a housing project or other such environment aren't as fortunate as Trent Richardson was to have a mom who stayed on him 24/7 and kept him out of trouble and made him capable of then pulling a high gpa in a tough field.

Notre Dame may not be for all those kids. There's certainly a place for a ND who only takes the best and the brghtest and holds them to the highest standard. There's also a place for public universities too, though. They offer an opportunity for a good education to those kids who haven't had the fortune to be blessed with genius IQ's or an enriching environment, but who want to better themselves and make the most of their abilities and opportunities.

That applies to the athletes too. For many of them, this is their best chance to better their lives, to escape poverty, to get an education and move up in the world and improve the lot of their families. I can think of dozens of examples of kids who were the first in their family to ever go to college. Kids who grew up in grinding poverty and used a school like Bama to raise themselves out of it. Kids who'd never had anyone show them the way and never had two nickels to rub together who used football at a place like Alabama to learn maturity and hard work, and then turned their education into a lucrative career or their football talent into NFL riches.

I will freely admit ND's academics are superior to Bama's in general, though not in all specific categories (Bama has some outstanding programs). I will say that academics at Bama and for our football team are MUCH better than many of you seem to believe, though. Bama has more National Merit Scholarship winners than any other public university in the country and trails only 4 private universities. We attract quite a few Ivy League alumni for several of our graduate programs. Many of our graduates win pulitzers, write books that become academy award winning films, get accepted into elite grad schools, and do quite well wherever they go or whatever field they go into, just like graduates from many other good universities do. The same can be said of our athletic program. The national female scholar athletes of the year for the past two years were a Bama golfer and Bama gymnast.

Despite the perception or stereotype, we aren't some football factory for dumb jocks either. Our players graduate at a level well above the national average, and our team's APR and gpa are also very good. At any given time, roughly 25% of all our players already have their degree and are in grad school. We've produced more 1st Team Academic All-Americans over the past 5 years than the the next two football teams combined, and had a Rhodes finalist and a Campbell winner. That's nothing to sneeze at. Is our team as a whole as talented in the classroom as ND's or Stanford's? Probably not, but it's also not nearly as far behind as some would like to believe.

Every school can't be Notre Dame. It's not a perfect world. Not every school can be held to that same standard of only admitting the elite of the elite. There aren't enough elite to go around for all 120 D1 schools. There's a need for places where the rest can get an opportunity to get a good education. There's a need for places where the player who hasn't had a great HS education or parents who pushed them to excel academically but is willing to work hard, can catch up to the rest of us and have a chance to enjoy all the world has to offer. Not every school can be ND and not everyone is able or at least ready to meet ND's standards, but would you want to shut down those schools and the opportunities they provide or tell those other kids they shouldn't play football at any place less than ND?

So to answer your question, yes there is a difference in the moral or ethical standards. There's also a difference in the missions and goals. Do I admire what ND is doing? Sure. Do I wish every school could do the same? Of course, but they can't. You chose this course. There's something very noble and admirable about it, and that's part of what makes you who you are, but be understanding of the fact that there isn't room for 120 ND's and not every school can follow that same exact formula and still accomplish their goals. Many of the rest of us are working with a different set of circumstances and trying to meet the needs of a different set of students.

/thread

Not sure why anyone is even discussing this anymore. Look, don't blame Alabama. If you want to blame someone, blame the NCAA. Easy way to fix this? Just get rid of the 85 cap and leave the 25/year limit... then the emphasis is on keep kids enrolled and academically progressing and there is zero incentive for any program to nudge people out in any way, shape, or form.

This is not an SEC problem or an Alabama problem... it's an NCAA problem. They're the ones who made the rules that are being played by. Or, to paraphrase Ice T, "don't hate the player, hate the game."
 

NDohio

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First, hats off to you for a very clear, insightful, and well-written summing up of the issue being discussed.

Second, I would correct one small thing you said. You said that grayshirts are unlikely to ever actually get their scholarship. Not so. In fact, unless the grayshirted player decides himself to pursue another school, all of them do at Bama. I've never heard of the coaching staff ever not giving a grayshirt his scholarship as promised the following year as long as the player still wanted it.

Now for your questions, I have enormous respect for ND and the standards they try to live up to and instill in their students as both an institute of higher learning and as a football program. I'm aware that due to those standards, Kelly has a tougher challenge than the coaches at virtually every other school. It's a very noble, honorable, and admirable standard and approach. In a perfect world, every school would take the same approach and have the same standards. We'd all be doctors, our kids would all be brilliant, and everyone would have a Mercedes and live in a great neighborhood. However, it's not a perfect world.

Not every good football player comes from a comfortable home where education was stressed. A lot of those kids come from hell holes and never had anyone to guide them or help them reach their potential. Sports is their only lifeline and a coach or school who'll give them a chance and provide them with the opportunity and guidance they need is their only hope. Not everyone is lucky enough to be a Barrett Jones on Manti Teo and be blessed with that sort of intelligence and born into a family that nourishes it. Most of those kids that grow up in a housing project or other such environment aren't as fortunate as Trent Richardson was to have a mom who stayed on him 24/7 and kept him out of trouble and made him capable of then pulling a high gpa in a tough field.

Notre Dame may not be for all those kids. There's certainly a place for a ND who only takes the best and the brghtest and holds them to the highest standard. There's also a place for public universities too, though. They offer an opportunity for a good education to those kids who haven't had the fortune to be blessed with genius IQ's or an enriching environment, but who want to better themselves and make the most of their abilities and opportunities.

That applies to the athletes too. For many of them, this is their best chance to better their lives, to escape poverty, to get an education and move up in the world and improve the lot of their families. I can think of dozens of examples of kids who were the first in their family to ever go to college. Kids who grew up in grinding poverty and used a school like Bama to raise themselves out of it. Kids who'd never had anyone show them the way and never had two nickels to rub together who used football at a place like Alabama to learn maturity and hard work, and then turned their education into a lucrative career or their football talent into NFL riches.

I will freely admit ND's academics are superior to Bama's in general, though not in all specific categories (Bama has some outstanding programs). I will say that academics at Bama and for our football team are MUCH better than many of you seem to believe, though. Bama has more National Merit Scholarship winners than any other public university in the country and trails only 4 private universities. We attract quite a few Ivy League alumni for several of our graduate programs. Many of our graduates win pulitzers, write books that become academy award winning films, get accepted into elite grad schools, and do quite well wherever they go or whatever field they go into, just like graduates from many other good universities do. The same can be said of our athletic program. The national female scholar athletes of the year for the past two years were a Bama golfer and Bama gymnast.

Despite the perception or stereotype, we aren't some football factory for dumb jocks either. Our players graduate at a level well above the national average, and our team's APR and gpa are also very good. At any given time, roughly 25% of all our players already have their degree and are in grad school. We've produced more 1st Team Academic All-Americans over the past 5 years than the the next two football teams combined, and had a Rhodes finalist and a Campbell winner. That's nothing to sneeze at. Is our team as a whole as talented in the classroom as ND's or Stanford's? Probably not, but it's also not nearly as far behind as some would like to believe.

Every school can't be Notre Dame. It's not a perfect world. Not every school can be held to that same standard of only admitting the elite of the elite. There aren't enough elite to go around for all 120 D1 schools. There's a need for places where the rest can get an opportunity to get a good education. There's a need for places where the player who hasn't had a great HS education or parents who pushed them to excel academically but is willing to work hard, can catch up to the rest of us and have a chance to enjoy all the world has to offer. Not every school can be ND and not everyone is able or at least ready to meet ND's standards, but would you want to shut down those schools and the opportunities they provide or tell those other kids they shouldn't play football at any place less than ND?

So to answer your question, yes there is a difference in the moral or ethical standards. There's also a difference in the missions and goals. Do I admire what ND is doing? Sure. Do I wish every school could do the same? Of course, but they can't. You chose this course. There's something very noble and admirable about it, and that's part of what makes you who you are, but be understanding of the fact that there isn't room for 120 ND's and not every school can follow that same exact formula and still accomplish their goals. Many of the rest of us are working with a different set of circumstances and trying to meet the needs of a different set of students.

What a bunch of drivel from a low country hillbilly

Well said Bishop. I think this proves that he gets it even though many of us don't like it.
 

Bishop2b5

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Bishop ,

It was me that changed your title to "Hates Oversigning." I was just giving you a hard time, and respect the fact that you maintain yourself with grace and dignity on this board amidst the debate. I strongly disagree with your opinion on the matter, but enjoy reading your perspective nonetheless.

That is much appreciated, sir. I'll try to continue to be a decent poster and maintain as much grace and dignity as possible. Thanks for the laugh over the Hates oversigning thing and I'll look forward to the next one!
 
P

PraetorianND

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First, hats off to you for a very clear, insightful, and well-written summing up of the issue being discussed.

Second, I would correct one small thing you said. You said that grayshirts are unlikely to ever actually get their scholarship. Not so. In fact, unless the grayshirted player decides himself to pursue another school, all of them do at Bama. I've never heard of the coaching staff ever not giving a grayshirt his scholarship as promised the following year as long as the player still wanted it.

Now for your questions, I have enormous respect for ND and the standards they try to live up to and instill in their students as both an institute of higher learning and as a football program. I'm aware that due to those standards, Kelly has a tougher challenge than the coaches at virtually every other school. It's a very noble, honorable, and admirable standard and approach. In a perfect world, every school would take the same approach and have the same standards. We'd all be doctors, our kids would all be brilliant, and everyone would have a Mercedes and live in a great neighborhood. However, it's not a perfect world.

Not every good football player comes from a comfortable home where education was stressed. A lot of those kids come from hell holes and never had anyone to guide them or help them reach their potential. Sports is their only lifeline and a coach or school who'll give them a chance and provide them with the opportunity and guidance they need is their only hope. Not everyone is lucky enough to be a Barrett Jones on Manti Teo and be blessed with that sort of intelligence and born into a family that nourishes it. Most of those kids that grow up in a housing project or other such environment aren't as fortunate as Trent Richardson was to have a mom who stayed on him 24/7 and kept him out of trouble and made him capable of then pulling a high gpa in a tough field.

Notre Dame may not be for all those kids. There's certainly a place for a ND who only takes the best and the brghtest and holds them to the highest standard. There's also a place for public universities too, though. They offer an opportunity for a good education to those kids who haven't had the fortune to be blessed with genius IQ's or an enriching environment, but who want to better themselves and make the most of their abilities and opportunities.

That applies to the athletes too. For many of them, this is their best chance to better their lives, to escape poverty, to get an education and move up in the world and improve the lot of their families. I can think of dozens of examples of kids who were the first in their family to ever go to college. Kids who grew up in grinding poverty and used a school like Bama to raise themselves out of it. Kids who'd never had anyone show them the way and never had two nickels to rub together who used football at a place like Alabama to learn maturity and hard work, and then turned their education into a lucrative career or their football talent into NFL riches.

I will freely admit ND's academics are superior to Bama's in general, though not in all specific categories (Bama has some outstanding programs). I will say that academics at Bama and for our football team are MUCH better than many of you seem to believe, though. Bama has more National Merit Scholarship winners than any other public university in the country and trails only 4 private universities. We attract quite a few Ivy League alumni for several of our graduate programs. Many of our graduates win pulitzers, write books that become academy award winning films, get accepted into elite grad schools, and do quite well wherever they go or whatever field they go into, just like graduates from many other good universities do. The same can be said of our athletic program. The national female scholar athletes of the year for the past two years were a Bama golfer and Bama gymnast.

Despite the perception or stereotype, we aren't some football factory for dumb jocks either. Our players graduate at a level well above the national average, and our team's APR and gpa are also very good. At any given time, roughly 25% of all our players already have their degree and are in grad school. We've produced more 1st Team Academic All-Americans over the past 5 years than the the next two football teams combined, and had a Rhodes finalist and a Campbell winner. That's nothing to sneeze at. Is our team as a whole as talented in the classroom as ND's or Stanford's? Probably not, but it's also not nearly as far behind as some would like to believe.

Every school can't be Notre Dame. It's not a perfect world. Not every school can be held to that same standard of only admitting the elite of the elite. There aren't enough elite to go around for all 120 D1 schools. There's a need for places where the rest can get an opportunity to get a good education. There's a need for places where the player who hasn't had a great HS education or parents who pushed them to excel academically but is willing to work hard, can catch up to the rest of us and have a chance to enjoy all the world has to offer. Not every school can be ND and not everyone is able or at least ready to meet ND's standards, but would you want to shut down those schools and the opportunities they provide or tell those other kids they shouldn't play football at any place less than ND?

So to answer your question, yes there is a difference in the moral or ethical standards. There's also a difference in the missions and goals. Do I admire what ND is doing? Sure. Do I wish every school could do the same? Of course, but they can't. You chose this course. There's something very noble and admirable about it, and that's part of what makes you who you are, but be understanding of the fact that there isn't room for 120 ND's and not every school can follow that same exact formula and still accomplish their goals. Many of the rest of us are working with a different set of circumstances and trying to meet the needs of a different set of students.



Best part of the post was your pro ND sentiment! Also, enjoy the discussion/banter Bishop. I think we're on the same page for the most part; or we will be when we nail down what "sufficient effort" is. As a lawyer I can't bash SEC schools for how they use their scholarships because it is within NCAA and SEC rules. However, doesn't mean I have to like it. Letter vs. Spirit. I do want the chance to beat Bama in the NCG again though.


Part about kids' home lives hit home with this post in Foster's thread.
http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/2013-recruiting-profiles/60725-13-ga-lb-reuben-foster-alabama-verbal-3.html#post907812
 
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palinurus

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Wow, lot of stuff here, and I don't want to retread these paths but a couple of unaddressed things --

First, I've got way too much venom to dump on Ohio State, So Cal and Mich to hate on Bama too much. Second I don't care to get personal or take offense unless that's the mindset of the other guy and I need to defend something or someone I care about. Invincibly ignorant bigots or meanspirited a holes, sure, you crap on, but not most people.

A couple of points --

I think Bishop is downplaying too much the medical scholarship point. Leave Bama out of it. Assuming the numbers are true, if one school has almost half (12) of a conferences total medical schollies (25), that is a striking statistical disparity. That is not just, well, maybe a little high, let's dismiss it, doesn't prove anything, let's move along. You can say it's circumstantial, and it is, by itself, but people go to jail on circumstantial evidence all the time. So perhaps this is one nut of disagreement. Again, leaving Bama out, because I don't hate Bama, but 12 of 25 is more than just a little smoke -- such a school either has lousy medical care or something stinks somewhere.

Second, and this goes back to last night, but also it has come up today, and again, I don't know the numbers or particulars, so this isn't anti-Bama, just a principle we're talking about: I think Bishop and I, at least, strongly disagree about the nature of a scholarship and what it means. This is a second nut of disagreement. I think if you give a guy a scholly, you give him a scholly. You are committing, short of real medical issues or behavior issues (this doesn't include, "sheesh, kid's not as good as I thought two years ago!"), to a four year gig. Bishop, as I understood him last night, seemed to think insufficient performance was a legitimate reason to push a kid out, or at least, that while he may not like it, it’s not against the rules. (Not trying to mis-state it, so would stand correction.) I think this is fuzzy thinking; if you don’t like it, then you agree with me. If you accept it, then you don’t. Saying I don’t like, but it’s legal, so Saban or whoever isn’t culpable really is a dodge. Because the question for me isn’t, is Saban or such a coach breaking NCAA law?; the question is, is Saban or such a coach a sleazy piece of cr@p by doing unethical things that should be counter to the idea of college football.

Also, my problem, and what makes it smell of unethical behavior to me a little is exactly the thing that allows Bishop to say, "well, prove it." These issues are hard to prove. Why aren't there more kids screaming about it? The culture of football, generally, and particularly in the South -- guy doesn't want to appear to complain (btw, I think this is an admirable instinct; I'm not criticizing the disinclination to bitch at all; I admire it) and he certainly doesn't want a maelstrom that would be centered on a notable coach telling him he isn't a very good player. Better to go quietly. So again, I wouldn't put too much weight on the lack of outcry.

By the same token, I am not saying "conspiracy." Sometimes I laugh at all the conspiracies floating out there: you can tell they are conspiracies by the complete lack of evidence establishing them. I am just saying the lack of a smoking gun doesn’t prove he’s clean. Granted, he doesn’t have to prove he’s clean, but again, the issue isn’t whether the NCAA can slam him; it’s whether he can avoid looking like a sleaze, and in such cases, sometimes you do have to put down some evidence that you are clean. We saw this with Te’o.

But in this case, you have bits and pieces of things, and they all should go into the wall of evidence of whether there is wrong doing or not.

Eg --

1. What are the numbers, really? Can the disparity be explained (early draft, graduation) or are they nebulous (medical, quality departures, etc.)?

2. How do the numbers stack up against other programs?

3. What's the standard of proof the NCAA uses to look at these things? I don't know that you can conclude that the lack of NCAA action is tantamount to Bama or any school "doing things by the letter of the law." It depends on how easy it is to get evidence of compliance with the letter of the law. If the details are shrouded in "Well, the coach didn't exactly say I had to leave the team" type statements, that may not be enough for the NCAA to move, but it doesn't mean the fair-minded person has to say, "well, they are complying with the letter of the law." It may just be that the letter of the law is a tough standard to figure out.

Finally, I don't think it is fair to ascribe bad motives to Bishop; he’s defending his team in a hostile arena and he isn’t a foul-mouth or a mean-spirited guy. But nor do I think he can logically assume that, or logically attribute, complaints by Irish fans about unethical behavior to sour grapes. That's as much a possibility, logically, as that Bishop is defending Bama because he feels guilty about the wildly disproportionate number of medical scholarships and the ease with which Saban cuts throats. My point is, there are reasons besides shady motives, why people would be on both sides of this, and without more evidence, neither side can ascribe motives.
 
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palinurus

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Appropo of Nothing?

From Irish Illustrated

Ominous stats from National Signing Day: The SEC landed 118 four-star prospects. The Pac 12, ACC and Big 12 combined for 120.
 

STLDomer

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a6asyde2.jpg
 

Bishop2b5

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How are we at 87?

Most of those numbers seem a bit too high. Technically correct, perhaps, but not taking into account that most of those schools already have a few 5th year seniors who'll almost certainly be moving on, players known to be planning to transfer or give up playing due to injuries, etc.
 
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