Orlando attack - terrorism suspected

[Irish#1]

Obama doesn't use the term "radical islamic terrorism" like the republicans like to point out because it legitimizes groups like ISIS and validates their narrative. This directly results in American military and civilian deaths. He chooses to value the lives of Americans over placating grandstanding republicans.

Obama can refuse to use whatever term he wants and it doesn't matter, because he's narrow minded if he thinks it doesn't legitimize ISIS/ISIL.

Those are legitimate weapons they are using to kill legitimate people and those are legitimate soldiers and weapons we are using trying to stop them. Pretty sure those are also legitimate tears shed by the victims relatives.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't care about how much it costs you to buy a gun.

Tell me how you'd feel about a $500 fee for all photo IDs in order to vote. It's the exact same thing. Making something prohibitively expensive is no different than banning it entirely, and the right to keep and bear arms is arguable more fundamental than the right to vote.

I care about the victims and their families. Truly.

I understand that. But noble motivations don't justify poor policies.

I don't have a problem with guns. I have a problem with how easily people who shouldn't have guns, get them.

None of the things you're suggesting would have prevented this shooting. The FBI dropped this guy from their watch list. So he would have successfully passed every background check and psych evaluation. Best case scenario is that he waits the four weeks you propose and we have a mass shooting at an Orlando club in July instead of June.

 

[Irish#1]

I'm not laying it at the feet of Trump. I'm saying that when people are more openly bigoted, anger is going to increase, and so are the instances in which people act on that anger. Its not Trump's fault. It's the fault of the people committing the crimes, but why push people to their boiling point? It makes no sense. Several posters in the political threads have talked about how they are encountering ignorant, racist people openly saying racist things to minorities is happening more frequently than they can remember it happening in the past.

That's how more than one of us read that.

 

[BobbyMac]

Sometimes I read your posts and believe that you have never met a black person, certainly not one who grew up in the inner city, or an American Muslim. Your view of how things are in this country is clearly a sheltered one.

Well GoIrish, I was born in Gary, IN, played basketball all through college, 2/3 of my FB friends are black, half my friends even in lily white Scottsdale AZ are black and at @ 50 yrs of age I'll be the first to tell you...

Wiz is right.

But that's just the opinion of a Classical Liberal who grew up living it, not watching it on TV from the burbs.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

GoIrish41 gave a personal example of someone he feels is a high risk individual who should not own a gun, yet does. I can relate and take that story a step further...

I know someone who is a substance abuser (Rx meds and alcohol). Been semi-arrested (too drunk to jail, taken straight to hospital) and in-and-out of hospitals and clinics for years. I was with him one day and on a whim, he decided he wanted (another) handgun. We walked into Bass Pro and literally 15 minutes later, he had his new gun and a box of ammo. A year later, he got so messed up on pills and booze that he accidentally fired his gun in his apartment almost killing himself and his best friend who was asleep in the next room (the bullet lodged in the wall next to the head of his bed). THIS is the type of unstable person who should not own a gun. A basic psych eval and in-depth background check would have revealed his extreme depression and bipolar disorder. It would've revealed his Rx med addiction and alcohol addiction. Hell, I pulled this off the Indiana gun law website:

The purchasing of firearms is granted to those over the age of eighteen. The only exception instituted is if a minor with the proper consent by a parent or guardian wishes to purchase a firearm. It is illegal under Indiana law to allow for the selling or purchasing of a firearm to a convicted felon, or an individual that is deemed to be addicted to drugs or alcohol. Those that are not mentally proficient to handle a firearm are also prohibited from purchasing firearms.

Can someone explain to me how he still got that gun?! This is the problem I'm talking about. This is the problem I would like Congress to address.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Tell me how you'd feel about a $500 fee for all photo IDs in order to vote. It's the exact same thing. Making something prohibitively expensive is no different than banning it entirely, and the right to keep and bear arms is arguable more fundamental than the right to vote.


I understand that. But noble motivations don't justify poor policies.


None of the things you're suggesting would have prevented this shooting. The FBI dropped this guy from their watch list. So he would have successfully passed every background check and psych evaluation. Best case scenario is that he waits the four weeks you propose and we have a mass shooting at an Orlando club in July instead of June.

Substance abuse (steroids) and history of domestic violence (didn't he beat his wife and she filed a police report?)...both of those are red flags and would prevent a gun sale in other countries with stricter laws. That's not to say to say he couldn't have still got a gun illegally or made a bomb, etc. But we're talking about legal purchases in this case.

See my recent post about my substance abusing friend who still got a gun eventhough it's written into Indiana law that he shouldn't have been able to buy one.

 

[wizards8507]

GoIrish41 gave a personal example of someone he feels is a high risk individual who should not own a gun, yet does. I can relate and take that story a step further...

I know someone who is a substance abuser (Rx meds and alcohol). Been semi-arrested (too drunk to jail, taken straight to hospital) and in-and-out of hospitals and clinics for years. I was with him one day and on a whim, he decided he wanted (another) handgun. We walked into Bass Pro and literally 15 minutes later, he had his new gun and a box of ammo. A year later, he got so messed up on pills and booze that he accidentally fired his gun in his apartment almost killing himself and his best friend who was asleep in the next room (the bullet lodged in the wall next to the head of his bed). THIS is the type of unstable person who should not own a gun. A basic psych eval and in-depth background check would have revealed his extreme depression and bipolar disorder. It would've revealed his Rx med addiction and alcohol addiction. Hell, I pulled this off the Indiana gun law website:

Can someone explain to me how he still got that gun?! This is the problem I'm talking about. This is the problem I would like Congress to address.

How on earth would the state of Indiana know if he was addicted to drugs or alcohol? There's literally no way for them to know that short of hiring a private investigator to follow every potential gun-buyer around for a month.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

How on earth would the state of Indiana know if he was addicted to drugs or alcohol? There's literally no way for them to know that short of hiring a private investigator to follow every potential gun-buyer around for a month.

Ugh...you exhaust me.

Someone who has on their record a drunk-driving accident with a 0.38 BAC, hospital record of detox, psychiatrist record, and AA attendance record does not require a PI to figure this shit out.

 

[BobbyMac]

Can someone explain to me how he still got that gun?! This is the problem I'm talking about. This is the problem I would like Congress to address.

So you want Congress to pass new legislation that gives the Feds power over who gets a gun by enabling them to do in depth interviewing of the gun candidate?

Kinda like how the FBI interviewed the Orlando shooter 3 times to figure him out...

Good luck.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Obama can refuse to use whatever term he wants and it doesn't matter, because he's narrow minded if he thinks it doesn't legitimize ISIS/ISIL.

Those are legitimate weapons they are using to kill legitimate people and those are legitimate soldiers and weapons we are using trying to stop them. Pretty sure those are also legitimate tears shed by the victims relatives.

Messaging DOES matter, especially if you're an American president. Talk among US political and religious leaders about a de facto "war against Islam" alienates our allies in the region and is used as fodder for propaganda by all kinds of terrorist groups.

All of Trump's bluster and refusal to be "politically correct" is just another way of saying he has virtually no diplomatic skills with culturally sensitive issues and will almost certainly get Americans killed if elected.

 

[NorthDakota]

Ugh...you exhaust me.

Someone who has on their record a drunk-driving accident with a 0.38 BAC, hospital record of detox, psychiatrist record, and AA attendance record does not require a PI to figure this shit out.

Alcoholics Anonymous.....

So now drunk drivers can't own guns? Well...looks like North Dakota(the state, not myself) will be seizing about 50% of the guns here.

 

[gkIrish]

The easier way to stop people from buying guns is to make it illegal to use deadly force in self defense...

Natural deterrent. 60% serious.

 

[wizards8507]

Ugh...you exhaust me.

Someone who has on their record a drunk-driving accident with a 0.38 BAC, hospital record of detox, psychiatrist record, and AA attendance record does not require a PI to figure this shit out.

Except that 1) a DUI doesn't make you an alcoholic, 2) your hospital, medical, psychiatric, and AA records are no business of the government's.

 

[NorthDakota]

Messaging DOES matter, especially if you're an American president. Talk among US political and religious leaders about a de facto "war against Islam" alienates our allies in the region and is used as fodder for propaganda by all kinds of terrorist groups.

All of Trump's bluster and refusal to be "politically correct" is just another way of saying he has virtually no diplomatic skills with culturally sensitive issues and will almost certainly get Americans killed if elected.

war against radical muslim terrorists does not equal against Islam as a whole.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

So you want Congress to pass new legislation that gives the Feds power over who gets a gun by enabling them to do in depth interviewing of the gun candidate?

Kinda like how the FBI interviewed the Orlando shooter 3 times to figure him out...

Good luck.

Investigated on the basis of ISIS connection, which was dropped.

Not investigated per domestic violence, substance abuse, etc., which in other countries will prohibit a gun sale.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Except that 1) a DUI doesn't make you an alcoholic, 2) your hospital, medical, psychiatric, and AA records are no business of the government's.

1) Multiple offenses argue otherwise
2) That's your opinion.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Alcoholics Anonymous.....

So now drunk drivers can't own guns? Well...looks like North Dakota(the state, not myself) will be seizing about 50% of the guns here.

You picked out literally one part of that story to use as an argument instead of seeing the big picture of a diagnosed (and treated) bipolar, severe depression, addict with a history of manic highs and lows....yea, it's a great idea to give someone like that a gun.

 

[BobbyMac]

Investigated on the basis of ISIS connection, which was dropped.

Thank you for backing up my point. If the FBI who are the nations premier profiling organization can't identify a guy who later kills 49 people then how do you expect a local social worker to determine who gets a gun and who doesn't? What could go wrong?

 

[Monk]

Except that 1) a DUI doesn't make you an alcoholic, 2) your hospital, medical, psychiatric, and AA records are no business of the government's.

Maybe they should be if you would like to purchase a firearm.

 

[wizards8507]

Except that 1) a DUI doesn't make you an alcoholic, 2) your hospital, medical, psychiatric, and AA records are no business of the government's.

1) Multiple offenses argue otherwise
2) That's your opinion.

Maybe they should be if you would like to purchase a firearm.

Holy shit, that's terrifying. This is 1984.

 

[ACamp1900]

Holy shit, that's terrifying. This is 1984.

You're lucky the government even lets you see your medical records brah.

 

[Irish#1]

Messaging DOES matter, especially if you're an American president. Talk among US political and religious leaders about a de facto "war against Islam" alienates our allies in the region and is used as fodder for propaganda by all kinds of terrorist groups.

All of Trump's bluster and refusal to be "politically correct" is just another way of saying he has virtually no diplomatic skills with culturally sensitive issues and will almost certainly get Americans killed if elected.

But it's not a war against Islam. It's a war against a radical group that likes to use Islam as it crutch to validate what they are doing. Everyone Obama, allies, world leaders, media, citizens know this is. Using a particular term isn't going to automatically give them reign over a country or a seat at the U.N.

 

[NorthDakota]

Holy shit, that's terrifying. This is 1984.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Throw a little Ben Franklin paraphrasing at them. Liberty > Security

 

[Ndaccountant]

The easier way to stop people from buying guns is to make it illegal to use deadly force in self defense...

Natural deterrent. 60% serious.

In case you missed this before

BTW, here is a direct quote from Jefferson's Common Place Book:

The laws of this nature, are those which forbid to wear arms, disarming those only who are not disposed to commit the crime which the laws mean to prevent. Can it be supposed, that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, and the most important of the code, will respect the less considerable and arbitrary injunctions, the violation of which is so easy, and of so little comparative importance? Does not the execution of this law deprive the subject of that personal liberty, so dear to mankind and to the wise legislator; and does it not subject the innocent to all the disagreeable circumstances that should only fall on the guilty? It certainly makes the situation of the assaulted worse, and of the assailants better, and rather encourages than prevents murder, as it requires less courage to attack armed than unarmed persons.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Thank you for backing up my point. If the FBI who are the nations premier profiling organization can't identify a guy who later kills 49 people then how do you expect a local social worker to determine who gets a gun and who doesn't? What could go wrong?

Understood. I'm not suggesting your point is invalid. I'm just saying that the other red flags that would have shown up during a pysch eval/background check would have prevented the gun sale in other countries with stricter gun laws.

 

[GoIrish41]

Well GoIrish, I was born in Gary, IN, played basketball all through college, 2/3 of my FB friends are black, half my friends even in lily white Scottsdale AZ are black and at @ 50 yrs of age I'll be the first to tell you...

Wiz is right.

But that's just the opinion of a Classical Liberal who grew up living it, not watching it on TV from the burbs.

Not sure what you are insinuating. I grew up poor, living in a predominantly black neighborhood and witnessed first hand how black people were treated differently. It was hard for me to reverse my fortunes in life. Many of my friends when I was a kid had it much tougher because they are black. A few of them are dead now, others are in prison. Those who are left are living in the same depressed neighborhood we grew up in. Trapped in poverty is not an after school special. It's a way of life for far too many people.

 

[wizards8507]

Not sure what you are insinuating. I grew up poor, living in a predominantly black neighborhood and witnessed first hand how black people were treated differently. It was hard for me to reverse my fortunes in life. Many of my friends when I was a kid had it much tougher because they are black. A few of them are dead now, others are in prison. Those who are left are living in the same depressed neighborhood we grew up in. Trapped in poverty is not an after school special. It's a way of life for far too many people.

With all due respect to your experience, it's not 1975 anymore.

 

[Monk]

Holy shit, that's terrifying. This is 1984.

Do you believe that a person with any level of mental health issues, from intellectual disabiliy to schizophrenia should be able to own a firearm? If you don't how do you find out if a person has such mental illness?

 

[wizards8507]

Do you believe that a person with any level of mental health issues, from intellectually disabiliy to schizophrenia should be able to own a firearm? If you don't how do you find out if a person has such mental illness?

If you've been adjudicated to be mentally deficient in a court of law, then you've gone through due process. That's different than a witch hunt for a nebulously-defined "mental illness." What if a woman suffers from post-partum depression? How about a college wrestler with an eating disorder? Someone who believes that the government was complicit in 9/11? Individuals suffering from gender dysphoria?

 

[Monk]

If you've been adjudicated to be mentally deficient in a court of law, then you've gone through due process. That's different than a witch hunt for a nebulously-defined "mental illness." What if a woman suffers from post-partum depression? How about a college wrestler with an eating disorder? Someone who believes that the government was complicit in 9/11? Individuals suffering from gender dysphoria?

My point is, if you are the seller of a firearm, how do you find out if the buyer has been adjudicated to be mentally deficient if the government/background check cannot look at the health records of the purchaser. I agree not all mental health illness necessarily means you cannot purchase a firearm. The term is to broad. I think we can agree though that there are types of mental health illnesses that should eliminate a person from owning a firearm. How do we allow the owner to be aware of the mental health of a purchaser?