One Stop Rumors Thread?

[Ndaccountant]

So, I was curious on the Franklin wins versus BK wins question. Below are the records by year against teams finishing in the AP top 10. Summary....both have tough records.

Franklin combined - 2-11
BK - 1-10

Of Franklins 11 losses, 6 have come to Ohio State. Of BK's 10 losses, 3 are Clemson, 2 are UGA. Franklin sort of gets the nod, but I would probably call it equal. Either way, Franklin's NY6 wins are paper giants.



2020
Franklin 0-1, loss to OSU
BK - 1-2, loss to Clemson / Bama, win Clemson

2019
Franklin 0-2, losses to OSU and Minny
BK 0-1 loss to UGA

2018
Franklin - 0-1, loss to OSU
BK - 0-1, loss to Clemson

2017
Franklin 0-1, loss to OSU
BK 0-1, loss to UGA

2016
Franklin 2-2, wins versus OSU / Wisconsin, losses versus Michigan & USC
BK - 0-1, loss to USC

2015
Franklin - 0-2, losses to OSU and MSU
BK - 0-3, losses to OSU, Clemson, Stanford

2014
Franklin - 0-2, losses to OSU and MSU
BK - 0-1, loss to FSU

 

[NDRock]

So good recruiter, hires good coordinators, can sell the
program, has developed guys to the NFL, has won SOME big games but we’re calling that not part of being a good coach because of in game management? I mean I’ll take all of part A over part B any day of the week, especially when Franklin has zero play call control on either side.

Agree. I remember people discrediting Mack Brown in the middle of his Texas run because he was a “terrible coach”. The HC’s job is to win games. Just look at their record. How they get there is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Irish#1]

So, I was curious on the Franklin wins versus BK wins question. Below are the records by year against teams finishing in the AP top 10. Summary....both have tough records.

Franklin combined - 2-11
BK - 1-10

Of Franklins 11 losses, 6 have come to Ohio State. Of BK's 10 losses, 3 are Clemson, 2 are UGA. Franklin sort of gets the nod, but I would probably call it equal. Either way, Franklin's NY6 wins are paper giants.

Technically Franklin with one more win, but BK made the NCG in 2012 and the playoffs twice. Franklin hasn't even sniffed that air yet.

 

[mango4]

The fact that you have FSU/Miami in the same class as Florida is baffling. Those schools are a train wreck right now for a reason....the programs are losing the $$ arms race and there is no light at the end of the tunnel for those schools.

It's quite simple though, when you boil it down. The top destinations have the following four attributes, in order.
1) Recruiting / Facilities advantage
2) Money
3) Administrative support of the program / stability
4) Tradition / Branding

To be a T1, you must check the box on all four. Reason, to me, that ND is not a T1 job is because of administrative support. ND will always have the academics versus football factory battle. That is the one thing, in my opinion, that separates an OSU or UGA from ND.

At this point in time, with the way TV contracts are situated, if Florida / FSU / Miami came calling to me, I know exactly which school I am taking....Florida. If A&M / Wisconsin / Washington come calling to me, I know I am going to A&M. If my choice is between A&M / Tennessee / Michigan State, I take A&M every time.

Where it becomes less clear, is when you start comparing A&M to places like USC / Michigan / Penn State / Clemson. A&M would have 1 or 2 advantages compared to each school, while losing on others. But the fact that is close tells me A&M is a low end T2 school. The money / support / recruiting can set up any good coach there to make a run.

For me, there are only a handful of T1 jobs - Ohio State, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Texas
T2 jobs would be ND, Michigan, Penn State, A&M, USC, Oklahoma, Clemson, LSU
T3 - Tenn, Auburn, FSU, Miami, Wisconsin, Washington, UCLA, UNC, Sparty, Virginia Tech,

Why? What has A&M done on the field that makes them so much better than those schools? They haven't played in a conference title game ever. There last solo conference title was 1998, they haven't won a national title since 1939! All of those other schools have played in conference title games, Michigan State has even made the playoffs. I honestly don't get the love for A&M. They supposedly have all these traditions, but the biggest tradition of all for them is not winning when it matters.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Why? What has A&M done on the field that makes them so much better than those schools? They haven't played in a conference title game ever. There last solo conference title was 1998, they haven't won a national title since 1939! All of those other schools have played in conference title games, Michigan State has even made the playoffs. I honestly don't get the love for A&M. They supposedly have all these traditions, but the biggest tradition of all for them is not winning when it matters.

1 - location. The fight for talent in Texas for talent is fierce, no doubt. But there is no question that recruiting is easier at A&M than, say, MSU.

2 - Money. A&M brought in the second most revenue for an athletic department nationally in FY 2019 (last before Covid). Football revenues since joining the SEC have been consistently near top of the charts.

3 - Support - The institution is willing to do whatever it takes to win. It just means more.

When you combine those three things to the scale to which A&M has it, the job/school is the proverbial "sleeping giant". The success they had, or didn't have really, is not really the point. The branding and tradition is what keeps your school top of mind and raking in the money. Well, A&M already has the money and in Texas, you can sure as hell believe they are top of mind. Personally, I think you are over-valuing tradition. It's certainly an asset. But it's not the end all be all.

 

[mango4]

1 - location. The fight for talent in Texas for talent is fierce, no doubt. But there is no question that recruiting is easier at A&M than, say, MSU.

2 - Money. A&M brought in the second most revenue for an athletic department nationally in FY 2019 (last before Covid). Football revenues since joining the SEC have been consistently near top of the charts.

3 - Support - The institution is willing to do whatever it takes to win. It just means more.

When you combine those three things to the scale to which A&M has it, the job/school is the proverbial "sleeping giant". The success they had, or didn't have really, is not really the point. The branding and tradition is what keeps your school top of mind and raking in the money. Well, A&M already has the money and in Texas, you can sure as hell believe they are top of mind. Personally, I think you are over-valuing tradition. It's certainly an asset. But it's not the end all be all.

They've always had those three things though and it really hasn't done anything for them. They've been a "sleeping giant" for almost 100 years now.

 

[irishff1014]

So, I was curious on the Franklin wins versus BK wins question. Below are the records by year against teams finishing in the AP top 10. Summary....both have tough records.

Franklin combined - 2-11
BK - 1-10

Of Franklins 11 losses, 6 have come to Ohio State. Of BK's 10 losses, 3 are Clemson, 2 are UGA. Franklin sort of gets the nod, but I would probably call it equal. Either way, Franklin's NY6 wins are paper giants.



2020
Franklin 0-1, loss to OSU
BK - 1-2, loss to Clemson / Bama, win Clemson

2019
Franklin 0-2, losses to OSU and Minny
BK 0-1 loss to UGA

2018
Franklin - 0-1, loss to OSU
BK - 0-1, loss to Clemson

2017
Franklin 0-1, loss to OSU
BK 0-1, loss to UGA

2016
Franklin 2-2, wins versus OSU / Wisconsin, losses versus Michigan & USC
BK - 0-1, loss to USC

2015
Franklin - 0-2, losses to OSU and MSU
BK - 0-3, losses to OSU, Clemson, Stanford

2014
Franklin - 0-2, losses to OSU and MSU
BK - 0-1, loss to FSU

Recruting is in our favor since 14.
14 ND-11 PS-24
15 ND-13 PS-14
16 ND-15 PS-20
17 ND-10 PS-15
18 PS-6 ND-10
19 PS-12 ND-15
20 PS-15 ND-18
21 ND-9 PS-21
22 PS-2 ND-6 SO FAR

 

[IrishLion]

The fact that you have FSU/Miami in the same class as Florida is baffling. Those schools are a train wreck right now for a reason....the programs are losing the $$ arms race and there is no light at the end of the tunnel for those schools.

It's quite simple though, when you boil it down. The top destinations have the following four attributes, in order.
1) Recruiting / Facilities advantage
2) Money
3) Administrative support of the program / stability
4) Tradition / Branding

To be a T1, you must check the box on all four. Reason, to me, that ND is not a T1 job is because of administrative support. ND will always have the academics versus football factory battle. That is the one thing, in my opinion, that separates an OSU or UGA from ND.

At this point in time, with the way TV contracts are situated, if Florida / FSU / Miami came calling to me, I know exactly which school I am taking....Florida. If A&M / Wisconsin / Washington come calling to me, I know I am going to A&M. If my choice is between A&M / Tennessee / Michigan State, I take A&M every time.

Where it becomes less clear, is when you start comparing A&M to places like USC / Michigan / Penn State / Clemson. A&M would have 1 or 2 advantages compared to each school, while losing on others. But the fact that is close tells me A&M is a low end T2 school. The money / support / recruiting can set up any good coach there to make a run.

For me, there are only a handful of T1 jobs - Ohio State, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Texas
T2 jobs would be ND, Michigan, Penn State, A&M, USC, Oklahoma, Clemson, LSU
T3 - Tenn, Auburn, FSU, Miami, Wisconsin, Washington, UCLA, UNC, Sparty, Virginia Tech,

I agree with you, but I would flip-flop the items that keep ND from being T1.

You mention administrative support, which I think was true early in BK's tenure, but Jack has helped eliminate those hurdles for the most part. They're never going to get the academic exceptions that allow them to keep up with the SEC in recruiting, and they won't get the money to upgrade the football facility every five years for whatever the new trends are, but the admin isn't holding the program back in a general fashion the way it used to (at least from my very limited outside perspective, obviously).

My thing keeping ND out of T1 is the 'Recruiting Advantage' tier. BK and co. are doing a much better job of identifying highly-rated guys that are cultural fits, as well as identifying lower-rated guys that will actually have a chance to develop into good players, rather than just serving as warm bodies on the depth chart. However, with the way the top dogs are currently recruiting on a yearly basis, ND will never be able to reach T1 in that regard. Too many obstacles from various angles.

 

[Irish#1]

1 - location. The fight for talent in Texas for talent is fierce, no doubt. But there is no question that recruiting is easier at A&M than, say, MSU.

2 - Money. A&M brought in the second most revenue for an athletic department nationally in FY 2019 (last before Covid). Football revenues since joining the SEC have been consistently near top of the charts.

3 - Support - The institution is willing to do whatever it takes to win. It just means more.

When you combine those three things to the scale to which A&M has it, the job/school is the proverbial "sleeping giant". The success they had, or didn't have really, is not really the point. The branding and tradition is what keeps your school top of mind and raking in the money. Well, A&M already has the money and in Texas, you can sure as hell believe they are top of mind. Personally, I think you are over-valuing tradition. It's certainly an asset. But it's not the end all be all.

So when do they wake up?

IMO A&M must have a great marketing department. A&M has been riding the coattails of one good season with Manziel when they upset Bama. Plus, they have to be good because they're now in the SEC and everyone knows that if you're in the SEC you must good.

 

[Ndaccountant]

They've always had those three things though and it really hasn't done anything for them. They've been a "sleeping giant" for almost 100 years now.

The SWC and it's history is downright amazing. The dirtiness, the politics, the cheating, it was on another level for it's time. A&M won 17 SWC titles, second most to Texas 27. RC Slocum was a fantastic coach and had A&M humming in the 90's and brought us Boob Davie (not a typo). Yea, they made some really bad hires after Slocum, no doubt. But the power of the school made Kevin Sumlin look decent for awhile.

Money....not like they have it now. Money like they have it today and how programs spend money is way different today than pre conference TV deals 30 years ago.

The college football game is no longer played just between the lines. It's played in bank accounts, recruiting budgets, facilities, etc. The world is different and A&M has advantages.

 

[Ndaccountant]

So when do they wake up?

IMO A&M must have a great marketing department. A&M has been riding the coattails of one good season with Manziel when they upset Bama. Plus, they have to be good because they're now in the SEC and everyone knows that if you're in the SEC you must good.

They finished in the top 5 just last year and this year they beat Bama. They will probably finish with 9 or 10 wins this year in a down year. I wouldn't call that sleeping.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I agree with you, but I would flip-flop the items that keep ND from being T1.

You mention administrative support, which I think was true early in BK's tenure, but Jack has helped eliminate those hurdles for the most part. They're never going to get the academic exceptions that allow them to keep up with the SEC in recruiting, and they won't get the money to upgrade the football facility every five years for whatever the new trends are, but the admin isn't holding the program back in a general fashion the way it used to (at least from my very limited outside perspective, obviously).

My thing keeping ND out of T1 is the 'Recruiting Advantage' tier. BK and co. are doing a much better job of identifying highly-rated guys that are cultural fits, as well as identifying lower-rated guys that will actually have a chance to develop into good players, rather than just serving as warm bodies on the depth chart. However, with the way the top dogs are currently recruiting on a yearly basis, ND will never be able to reach T1 in that regard. Too many obstacles from various angles.

Agree, I was putting the academics with the support of the administration. Could fall in either category.

 

[Irishize]

The SWC and it's history is downright amazing. The dirtiness, the politics, the cheating, it was on another level for it's time. A&M won 17 SWC titles, second most to Texas 27. RC Slocum was a fantastic coach and had A&M humming in the 90's and brought us Boob Davie (not a typo). Yea, they made some really bad hires after Slocum, no doubt. But the power of the school made Kevin Sumlin look decent for awhile.

Money....not like they have it now. Money like they have it today and how programs spend money is way different today than pre conference TV deals 30 years ago.

The college football game is no longer played just between the lines. It's played in bank accounts, recruiting budgets, facilities, etc. The world is different and A&M has advantages.

Exactly & most fans today can’t fathom what was done behind the scenes when the SWC was vibrant. I believe every member of the conference with the exception of 3 (Arkansas, Baylor & Rice) was on probation at one time or another for recruiting violations. And it wasn’t the petty crap that ND gets hammered for. It was legit paying players &/or admitting kids academically that had no business being enrolled in college.

 

[Rogue219]

They finished in the top 5 just last year and this year they beat Bama. They will probably finish with 9 or 10 wins this year in a down year. I wouldn't call that sleeping.

2020 was the Covid Ball season, though. They've also lost to Arkansas and Mississippi State this year. The teeth of their schedule is coming. Minus the Prairie View clash at home before they play LSU.

 

[Irish#1]

They finished in the top 5 just last year and this year they beat Bama. They will probably finish with 9 or 10 wins this year in a down year. I wouldn't call that sleeping.

Slocum was arguably their best coach, but his greatest success was 91-94 when he put together four years of double digit wins. He only had one more in 98.

Where's the consistency? Don't grab a big win every now and then. You want to be put in a category of the top programs? IMO show some consistency over a period of time. Put together a string of double digit win seasons. I get they have money, support, a great stadium and a rabid fanbase, but it's the wins everyone gets measured by. JMO.

 

[Rogue219]

Haven't we heard about Oregon being "new money" for a while now? They've had two bites at the apple in 2010 and 2014.

TAMU had Sumlin's first year with Manziel. They finished 5th in the AP and won the Cotton Bowl.

IDK. Tough gig. Saban, Lester and Coach O all won titles at LSU this millennium. LSU is the better gig.

 

[Ndaccountant]

2020 was the Covid Ball season, though. They've also lost to Arkansas and Mississippi State this year. The teeth of their schedule is coming. Minus the Prairie View clash at home before they play LSU.

So does ND making the playoff last year get discounted because it was Covid? Personally, I don't think so, but that means we can't really discount others success as well.

 

[irishtrooper]

So good recruiter, hires good coordinators, can sell the
program, has developed guys to the NFL, has won SOME big games but we’re calling that not part of being a good coach because of in game management? I mean I’ll take all of part A over part B any day of the week, especially when Franklin has zero play call control on either side.

Yes. I mean I suppose I’ll defer the expertise to those who follow every facet of the program rather than a bunch of ND fans. I think we can have an opinion certainly, but Coach O lucked into an amazing QB and LSU always has talent. Franklin took the baton from what OBrien started and has recruited well. With Moorehead and a supreme talent in Barkley he had a very nice run. Let’s see how it goes now without those guys…… So far, not awesome. I know I’m pushing back against the wrong guy because it seems like you are super well-informed. I’m just giving my simple-minded opinion. Perhaps my PSU fan people are crazy too

 

[NDRock]

Yes. I mean I suppose I’ll defer the expertise to those who follow every facet of the program rather than a bunch of ND fans. I think we can have an opinion certainly, but Coach O lucked into an amazing QB and LSU always has talent. Franklin took the baton from what OBrien started and has recruited well. With Moorehead and a supreme talent in Barkley he had a very nice run. Let’s see how it goes now without those guys…… So far, not awesome. I know I’m pushing back against the wrong guy because it seems like you are super well-informed. I’m just giving my simple-minded opinion. Perhaps my PSU fan people are crazy too

There's probably 3 fanbases who are happy with their coach and don't complain about them. I'm sure you can find some Clemson fans who want Dabo gone after losing 2 games.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Slocum was arguably their best coach, but his greatest success was 91-94 when he put together four years of double digit wins. He only had one more in 98.

Where's the consistency? Don't grab a big win every now and then. You want to be put in a category of the top programs? IMO show some consistency over a period of time. Put together a string of double digit win seasons. I get they have money, support, a great stadium and a rabid fanbase, but it's the wins everyone gets measured by. JMO.

I am not arguing Texas A&M is a top program. I am arguing that if I was a head coach, I would put that job in the lower end of tier 2. The resources/local talent that would be available to me as a recruiter, the facilities the school would provide, the money available to me to secure my staff, how the school would work with me, etc is what I am looking for. A&M has it. Just because they have hired bad coaches since Slocum doesn't change the fact that it's a good HC position.

 

[Dale]

Yes. I mean I suppose I’ll defer the expertise to those who follow every facet of the program rather than a bunch of ND fans. I think we can have an opinion certainly, but Coach O lucked into an amazing QB and LSU always has talent. Franklin took the baton from what OBrien started and has recruited well. With Moorehead and a supreme talent in Barkley he had a very nice run. Let’s see how it goes now without those guys…… So far, not awesome. I know I’m pushing back against the wrong guy because it seems like you are super well-informed. I’m just giving my simple-minded opinion. Perhaps my PSU fan people are crazy too

Not disputing any PSU fans that have some gripes I just think he at least gets “good coach” checked off. I also at the same time would not be shocked if Franklin left PSU would be upgrading.

Matt Campbell
Luke Fickell
Jeff Hafley
Brent Pry
Mike Elko

That’s off the top of the head. They do not lack very obvious replacements

 

[Irish#1]

I am not arguing Texas A&M is a top program. I am arguing that if I was a head coach, I would put that job in the lower end of tier 2. The resources/local talent that would be available to me as a recruiter, the facilities the school would provide, the money available to me to secure my staff, how the school would work with me, etc is what I am looking for. A&M has it. Just because they have hired bad coaches since Slocum doesn't change the fact that it's a good HC position.

I would agree with that, but wasn’t the original statement by someone that it was a better position than LSU? Then we went down the rabbit hole.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I would agree with that, but wasn’t the original statement by someone that it was a better position than LSU? Then we went down the rabbit hole.

I would say LSU's ranking as a HC position is above A&M, but I am not sure I would leave A&M to go to LSU. While it may have a greater historical foundation to build off of and no major school in-state to battle for recruiting, it does seem like LSU's administration / athletic department / interaction with state politics is comparatively disjointed. Plus, the fans will expect NC or bust. Not sure it's worth the hassle compared to A&M, especially if the pay is similar.

 

[Irish#1]

Less pressure and headaches, probably, but how much less? A&M keeps dumping money into the program, expectations are going to grow and the pressure will grow, right? LSU definitely has to get their house in order, but in terms of winning a NC and recruiting top talent LSU will almost always be the better job IMO.

 

[ACamp1900]

Less pressure and headaches, probably, but how much less? A&M keeps dumping money into the program, expectations are going to grow and the pressure will grow, right? LSU definitely has to get their house in order, but in terms of winning a NC and recruiting top talent LSU will almost always be the better job IMO.

Agreed

 

[Reaper97]

Did anyone see the Franklin post game excuses after losing to Illinois at home?
There are clips out from PSU media laughing at him. He literally said PSU lost because, “we had too many players not practice this week…”
He then went on to say (paraphrasing) that you can’t win games with important players not getting a full week of practice.
So, his two deep is infinitely better than Illinois’, Illinois also, like every team in the country at this point, is banged up too, yet he couldn’t win at home against a horrible team because not all his guys got a full week of practice?
Dude always is full of excuses…

 

[NorthDakota]

Did anyone see the Franklin post game excuses after losing to Illinois at home?
There are clips out from PSU media laughing at him. He literally said PSU lost because, “we had too many players not practice this week…”
He then went on to say (paraphrasing) that you can’t win games with important players not getting a full week of practice.
So, his two deep is infinitely better than Illinois’, Illinois also, like every team in the country at this point, is banged up too, yet he couldn’t win at home against a horrible team because not all his guys got a full week of practice?
Dude always is full of excuses…

I hope he goes to usc lol

 

[Rogue219]

So does ND making the playoff last year get discounted because it was Covid? Personally, I don't think so, but that means we can't really discount others success as well.

TAMU played 10 games in 2020 and won 9 during a global pandemic. So while I won't "discount" their top five finish, I'm going to put it into that context and recall it as such. It wasn't a normal season by any means.

Notre Dame joined a conference and played 12 games in 2020. They, like TAMU, got rolled by Bama.

 

[Rogue219]

Did anyone see the Franklin post game excuses after losing to Illinois at home?
There are clips out from PSU media laughing at him. He literally said PSU lost because, “we had too many players not practice this week…”
He then went on to say (paraphrasing) that you can’t win games with important players not getting a full week of practice.
So, his two deep is infinitely better than Illinois’, Illinois also, like every team in the country at this point, is banged up too, yet he couldn’t win at home against a horrible team because not all his guys got a full week of practice?
Dude always is full of excuses…

James Franklin is a tremendous example of how much emphasis and hype has been placed into recruiting in the last 20 years. His best accomplishment as far as I can tell is actually being a person who was able to win at Vanderbilt.

I honestly have no idea what he's really done other than put together some good recruiting classes. He's this generation's Ron Zook.

 

[GowerND11]

James Franklin is a tremendous example of how much emphasis and hype has been placed into recruiting in the last 20 years. His best accomplishment as far as I can tell is actually being a person who was able to win at Vanderbilt.

I honestly have no idea what he's really done other than put together some good recruiting classes. He's this generation's Ron Zook.

Beat Memphis in the Cotton Bowl, because they actually got the favorable matchup in the NY6 that year...