OL Needs Some Work

[dmort]

Kelly will need to adjust to the defense's goal of containing Golson.Purdue prevented Golson from getting to the outside which left him trying to be a pocket passer or running up the middle.Its scheme more than OL deficiencies.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It's been stated a few times but EG has to line up under center from time to time to give our backs a few steps and head-of-steam towards the LOS before getting the ball.

IIRC, we utilized a few pistol sets against Rice, which offers some advantages for the rushing attack without completely losing the benefits of the shotgun. I doubt we'll see Golson under center though. Kelly briefly tinkered with that last year, and our QB-C exchanges were a mess.

 

[Irish#1]

IIRC, we utilized a few pistol sets against Rice, which offers some advantages for the rushing attack without completely losing the benefits of the shotgun. I doubt we'll see Golson under center though. Kelly briefly tinkered with that last year, and our QB-C exchanges were a mess.

Bound to be if you don't practice it, but it can work.

 

[WestCoast]

IIRC, we utilized a few pistol sets against Rice, which offers some advantages for the rushing attack without completely losing the benefits of the shotgun. I doubt we'll see Golson under center though. Kelly briefly tinkered with that last year, and our QB-C exchanges were a mess.

Exactly. The one running play v. Rice where Golson hand off to air resulted in a TD. Maybe we need more of those. LOL

 

[Bogtrotter07]

See I respect anybody who’s making an honest argument, whether I think they’re wrong or right. The bullsh*tters are those who throw stuff out into a debate and don’t care if it’s wrong or right. I get annoyed by bullsh*tters in real life when I meet them in policy debates or when I have them in class, I usually don’t get annoyed when they’re on the internet. But I gotta say, on this board you’re just full of sh*t.

The full post that you wrote is #123 in the Rumored Violations thread, where you argued that everything’s fine, maybe better, without the suspended players.

When you write, above, that “This was when KVR was rumored to be returning to the team imminently”, you’re just lying. You’re full of sh*t. This was from 8/15, the first day when news broke out (in fact the first few hours after word broke out).

When you use the phrase above: "the part of my post you quoted" you are implying that I selectively quoted you to make a point. You’re full of sh*t. It is the entire quote, word for word.

You then try to misdirect by saying that you didn’t mention KVR in your post, so you must have thought he was coming back when you posted that. You’re full of sh*t. You wrote, word for word: “With Riggs and all the corner backs play this year we will be okay.”

No one is “spoiling for fracas”. It’s just hard to let some of your posts fly when they’re so full of sh*t. And then when you follow up by lying about your bullsh*t in ways that can be directly contradicted, it’s hard not to call you out.

You are right. I made a mistake. My exact correction was off. But you are still taking me out of context. You are right. It was very early on. The very first morning. Looked like a totally different situation than we have come to know.

So with my first comment that you want to drudge up, still very much out a context, another poster commented.

Originally Posted by NDWorld247 View Post
No way we are better without KVR...he was supposed to shut down a lineup of Biletnikoff award watch-listers for us. The other three are replaceable and the season is not lost....3pm can't come fast enough.

I agree with you. But do we really need to be that good, at one spot with three guys almost as good ready to step in, and a coaching staff that can make adjustments for that?

I agree looking back, that Kelly's press conference the other day, with the Golson news is more media management. It has all of the signs. Great news, ND qb announced, big media event. Look at rising underclassmen, especially at the same positions as some of these guys. Kelly was not happy with IWilliams. Kelly hasn't said boo about DD all camp. Made excuses for him not contributing. Of course, not a word about KMoore.

The outlier was that Kelly named KRussel and CRiggs starting cornerbacks!
__________________
"Your island?" “You mean Ireland?” ~ “Yeah. It's mine.” ~ “You're a madman.” ~ Stephen nods and starts laughing, “I've come to the right place, then.”

The point is with the fluid nature of things. I was making an assumption, which I have done upon occasion, that because Kelly named KVR a starter, and didn't seem to have a positive reaction about the others, where he in fact said Daniels hadn't done enough, and Williams was merely solid, where his successor, Rochell was, "a beast!", I figured that KVR would be able to play. And that is where I neglected mentioning him as being, "out."

Thank you for holding me accountable for what I said, and I apologize about setting the wrong context, but this was before the press conference and suspensions had been announced, or the players actually identified. We were all going off guesses then. Not the thing this had become. And thank you for allowing me to correct the context, and set things straight. Further, thanks for wasting fifteen minutes of my life, trying to figure it all out. 15 minutes that I wouldn't have had to spend if the same intelligence or honesty had been put into what was clearly now your passive aggressive attack on me. Next time make sure.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Well, forget that. Next time you feel like attacking someone because you loathe them like this, don't bother. Recognize it for what it is, penis envy, and just let it all go, okay?

 

[autry_denson]

Well, forget that. Next time you feel like attacking someone because you loathe them like this, don't bother. Recognize it for what it is, penis envy, and just let it all go, okay?

don't loathe you, just loathe BS. this exchange began when you dismissed in condescending terms the discussion about OL concerns. you can argue whatever you want to, but I think it's important to be able to figure out when someone is trying to make an honest argument vs when someone is just throwing sh*t out there. You do a lot of the latter, in my opinion, and that's been reinforced by the subsequent posts where you throw out explanations for prior opinions that are, as we've documented, just untrue. Anyway, I do appreciate you owning up to being wrong about something, that rarely happens on here.

your advice to "let it all go" is good advice. I usually do, this time I didn't.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

don't loathe you, just loathe BS. this exchange began when you dismissed in condescending terms the discussion about OL concerns. you can argue whatever you want to, but I think it's important to be able to figure out when someone is trying to make an honest argument vs when someone is just throwing sh*t out there. You do a lot of the latter, in my opinion, and that's been reinforced by the subsequent posts where you throw out explanations for prior opinions that are, as we've documented, just untrue. Anyway, I do appreciate you owning up to being wrong about something, that rarely happens on here.

your advice to "let it all go" is good advice. I usually do, this time I didn't.

We've documented, huh? Interesting!

And as far as what you said started you off, I will admit that that I am aghast at the number of fans that are belittling these kids for being 3-0 with some of the best stats produced this year, or by an ND squad, in nearly forever. What do you, or they, if it isn't you want? So then I do not accept the supposition that a man makes a snide comment about me as vengeance for the fact that I jumped on a few posters shorts.

The two questions I repeated twice from Kelly's interview showed that the problem wasn't with our offensive tackles, (as many wanted to abuse.) And they were mindful those of you who love to claim Kelly is a liar and always is producing coach speak; where are you when Kelly is basically admitting out loud he has to rethink a part of his offensive strategy for this year? THAT COMMENT OF HIS WAS HUGE! When defenses counter your inside zone as every one has so far this year, you have to adjust somewhere. If you don't, your offense will go nowhere.

Whiskey had a nice article from Coach T on this, saying it better than I could. I repped Whiskey for the post, as I repped ITP for the article originally. I mention that it wasn't an issue of these kids level or technique of play, [Or at least it wasn't as easily fixable as 1) kicking someone's ass, 2) firing someone and replacing them, or 3) switching positions between members of the group. If you think I am condescending fine.

What I really am is tired of people with no clue making unfounded suggestions. Many of these people are members of the cult of the personality, that can count their affections toward football players by stars. It would be different (make all the difference in the world), if these people asked questions. As much as a grabastic motard as you think me to be, you will find me often asking questions when I don't know answers, or am unsure. Let alone staying away from certain conversations.

Not like I don't go through a day being more wrong than right. But your attack still smacks of passive-aggressive hostility, was taken out of context, no matter how hard you stiffen your lip, and shows nothing about me being full of shiit. Hell, if you want to know whether I am full of shiit, just ask! I will tell you; I AM, more than most. But I am not going to take backhanded innuendo, or consternation from someone that has to be as goaded as you did into to admitting your true agenda! More power to the Anti-Bogtrotter Illuminati and knob gobblers. Have fun with that goal of discrediting me! Hell, illegitimate as I am, I was discredited the day I was born! So much for clean linen and silver spoons!

Maybe that is who the "we've" is you are referring to, (if you didn't intend the royal we), those who are not intelligent enough to understand, or ask questions if they don't. That's all I got.

 

[Irish#1]

See I respect anybody who’s making an honest argument, whether I think they’re wrong or right. The bullsh*tters are those who throw stuff out into a debate and don’t care if it’s wrong or right. I get annoyed by bullsh*tters in real life when I meet them in policy debates or when I have them in class, I usually don’t get annoyed when they’re on the internet. But I gotta say, on this board you’re just full of sh*t.

The full post that you wrote is #123 in the Rumored Violations thread, where you argued that everything’s fine, maybe better, without the suspended players.

When you write, above, that “This was when KVR was rumored to be returning to the team imminently”, you’re just lying. You’re full of sh*t. This was from 8/15, the first day when news broke out (in fact the first few hours after word broke out).

When you use the phrase above: "the part of my post you quoted" you are implying that I selectively quoted you to make a point. You’re full of sh*t. It is the entire quote, word for word.

You then try to misdirect by saying that you didn’t mention KVR in your post, so you must have thought he was coming back when you posted that. You’re full of sh*t. You wrote, word for word: “With Riggs and all the corner backs play this year we will be okay.”

No one is “spoiling for fracas”. It’s just hard to let some of your posts fly when they’re so full of sh*t. And then when you follow up by lying about your bullsh*t in ways that can be directly contradicted, it’s hard not to call you out.

Lighten up brother.

 

[D-BOE34]

So i'm just going to toss this in. I said before the season that I wasn't sold on our RB's yet. They had a high ceilings but I just had not seen enough to think they would be AA or anything close, yet. I think I should have said the OL and not the RB's.

Oops

 

[autry_denson]

We've documented, huh? Interesting!

And as far as what you said started you off, I will admit that that I am aghast at the number of fans that are belittling these kids for being 3-0 with some of the best stats produced this year, or by an ND squad, in nearly forever. What do you, or they, if it isn't you want? So then I do not accept the supposition that a man makes a snide comment about me as vengeance for the fact that I jumped on a few posters shorts.

The two questions I repeated twice from Kelly's interview showed that the problem wasn't with our offensive tackles, (as many wanted to abuse.) And they were mindful those of you who love to claim Kelly is a liar and always is producing coach speak; where are you when Kelly is basically admitting out loud he has to rethink a part of his offensive strategy for this year? THAT COMMENT OF HIS WAS HUGE! When defenses counter your inside zone as every one has so far this year, you have to adjust somewhere. If you don't, your offense will go nowhere.

Whiskey had a nice article from Coach T on this, saying it better than I could. I repped Whiskey for the post, as I repped ITP for the article originally. I mention that it wasn't an issue of these kids level or technique of play, [Or at least it wasn't as easily fixable as 1) kicking someone's ass, 2) firing someone and replacing them, or 3) switching positions between members of the group. If you think I am condescending fine.

What I really am is tired of people with no clue making unfounded suggestions. Many of these people are members of the cult of the personality, that can count their affections toward football players by stars. It would be different (make all the difference in the world), if these people asked questions. As much as a grabastic motard as you think me to be, you will find me often asking questions when I don't know answers, or am unsure. Let alone staying away from certain conversations.

Not like I don't go through a day being more wrong than right. But your attack still smacks of passive-aggressive hostility, was taken out of context, no matter how hard you stiffen your lip, and shows nothing about me being full of shiit. Hell, if you want to know whether I am full of shiit, just ask! I will tell you; I AM, more than most. But I am not going to take backhanded innuendo, or consternation from someone that has to be as goaded as you did into to admitting your true agenda! More power to the Anti-Bogtrotter Illuminati and knob gobblers. Have fun with that goal of discrediting me! Hell, illegitimate as I am, I was discredited the day I was born! So much for clean linen and silver spoons!

Maybe that is who the "we've" is you are referring to, (if you didn't intend the royal we), those who are not intelligent enough to understand, or ask questions if they don't. That's all I got.

I think I was being actively aggressive, not much passive there. I could probably use a little more passive approach, in fact. it's an internet message board - if I was not anonymous I would likely be embarrassed, so I pass along apologies for harsh language.

And the "we" to which I referred was you and I. I documented where your claims were visibly inaccurate, you acknowledged. There's no conspiracy against you as far as I know, or if there is I'm not part of it.

Your points on the OL may be reasonable ,not sure. But it's perfectly reasonable for people to be worried about aspects of the team even when they're 3-0. In my mind, they've beaten 3 bad teams. There were extended stretches of saturday's game where Purdue looked like the better team. They could have easily been down double digits in the first half - again, to Purdue. It's not a crisis that the OL looked very vulnerable against Purdue, but it's worrisome. To those of us who entered the year worrying aloud about the loss of Martin and Watt, it's even more troubling.

By contrast, I read many of your posts as reflecting blind optimism, combined with mocking indignation directed toward anyone who would dare suggest that there may be weak spots on the team. That's what I reacted against. Having made the point and apologized for the harshness of my words, I consider it done.

 

[Black Irish]

I think I was being actively aggressive, not much passive there. I could probably use a little more passive approach, in fact. it's an internet message board - if I was not anonymous I would likely be embarrassed, so I pass along apologies for harsh language.

And the "we" to which I referred was you and I. I documented where your claims were visibly inaccurate, you acknowledged. There's no conspiracy against you as far as I know, or if there is I'm not part of it.

Your points on the OL may be reasonable ,not sure. But it's perfectly reasonable for people to be worried about aspects of the team even when they're 3-0. In my mind, they've beaten 3 bad teams. There were extended stretches of saturday's game where Purdue looked like the better team. They could have easily been down double digits in the first half - again, to Purdue. It's not a crisis that the OL looked very vulnerable against Purdue, but it's worrisome. To those of us who entered the year worrying aloud about the loss of Martin and Watt, it's even more troubling.

By contrast, I read many of your posts as reflecting blind optimism, combined with mocking indignation directed toward anyone who would dare suggest that there may be weak spots on the team. That's what I reacted against. Having made the point and apologized for the harshness of my words, I consider it done.

How big of you. You start an unnecessary dust up with Bogtrotter over a point he made in a different thread that is only marginally related to this one. Then you accept his apologies, which you do not deserve, and graciously offer up your own over a fight that you started for no good reason. You've really got being an obnoxious troll down pat.

 

[Wingman Ray]

Do you think partially the woes of the run blocking can attribute to our starting TE who isn't a very physical nor capable of blocking more than a DB on a good day? Last year with Troy, we had a physical stud who could more than go toe to toe with DEs or LBs. Koyack has arms like spaghetti noodles and in all the years I have watched him blocking, whether as TE or H back, I don't think I really recall ever seeing a successful or impressive block executed by him. Usually Im sitting there watching him go through the motions and wondering why the heck he is on the field.

What I cant understand is why we don't spread it out more in the runs if Koyack is going to be in the game? Leaving him close to the OT just brings more men into the box and face it, a DE or LB vs Koyack is a win for the D.

Now I haven't reviewed run plays more than what I see live game time so maybe someone can enlighten me here. Is it that our 4 star OL is just physically being beaten by 2 and 3 star players or is it that the D is getting outside help because our WRs and TE cant hold their blocks for more than a second?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Do you think partially the woes of the run blocking can attribute to our starting TE who isn't a very physical nor capable of blocking more than a DB on a good day? Last year with Troy, we had a physical stud who could more than go toe to toe with DEs or LBs. Koyack has arms like spaghetti noodles and in all the years I have watched him blocking, whether as TE or H back, I don't think I really recall ever seeing a successful or impressive block executed by him. Usually Im sitting there watching him go through the motions and wondering why the heck he is on the field.

What I cant understand is why we don't spread it out more in the runs if Koyack is going to be in the game? Leaving him close to the OT just brings more men into the box and face it, a DE or LB vs Koyack is a win for the D.

Now I haven't reviewed run plays more than what I see live game time so maybe someone can enlighten me here. Is it that our 4 star OL is just physically being beaten by 2 and 3 star players or is it that the D is getting outside help because our WRs and TE cant hold their blocks for more than a second?

Good questions! I will add my opinion for someone who really knows what they are talking about to expand upon.

Troy was a stud, but I think he struggled with the inline aspect of blocking a bit. But what your question sparked for me was a thought about how we have moved away from a two tight end set. This may be a significant change that the line needs to get used to, and more importantly the ends and backs need to adjust for.

By spread it out more on the runs, do you mean outside versus inside? I think that is a question. Last year with Tommy, if they took away the inside, we would bounce outside, or throw to various routes behind the linebackers and in front of the db's, (if I have that right.) This year we don't seem to be bouncing outside, or sweeping, it is either run inside, set up play action or use Golson's arm in another way.

What appears to be happening is that other teams anticipate this and they are moving a couple of big uglies inside and jamming things up. If an inside zone team doesn't have room for all the big linemen to move around, sometimes parallel to the line of scrimmage, the play is counterfeit from the get go. (Someone correct me if I misstated any of this.)

Against Rice our line was dominating, after watching it several times. Rice's defensive line was fast, but didn't have the power to go toe to toe with our offensive line. Against Michigan it seemed that our offensive line beat their defensive line handily. More so before Christian Lombard hurt his ankle. But what started to happen against Michigan is Greg Mattison loaded the inside, putting seven players on our five, and then blitzing from the inside as well. Several times I think I saw four players blitzing between our consecutive linemen. Darrell Hazell and his defensive coordinator Greg Hudson are geniuses. Their defensive planning was superb. It was helped by the fact that Purdue got two starting defensive backs back for the ND game off suspension, with fresh legs. This allowed Purdue to match up the most experienced, physical defensive backfield (in my opinion) of the year against ND. Remember Michigan was down two or three starters against us for most of the game.

They continued to hide pressure from the inside and really confused ND at the beginning of the game. I believe this was phenomenal coaching, not a fluke, because they did the same sort of thing against our defensive line. Our defensive line was better, quicker, and more physical, but they held Sheldon Day to neutral most of the game. He finished with three tackles and a fumble recovery, which was a win for Purdue's strategy, because he regularly beat the lineman he was over in a one on one matchup.

Back to our offensive line, Purdue sent their defensive ends out in a exaggerated motion to defeat zone blocking and keep Everett in the pocket. Our tackles did so well taking them out once we made adjustments that Everett had room to run outside, even with extra pressure coming from that gap inside the defensive ends. They had to abandon that part of their game plan.

I am hoping that there are two differences with the Purdue game this year. We won handily for once, and Purdue goes on to start to beat some bigot teams this year! Stranger things have happened. But I am going to root for Purdue throughout their entire schedule this year! Go Boilers! Fuck Michigan!

 

[PANDFAN]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Excited to see what ND OL looks like after position changes. Hearing Elmer-Lombard swap almost certain, Martin-Hegarty swap likely. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/goirish?src=hash">#goirish</a></p>— Tom Mendoza (@TomMendozaTalks) <a href="https://twitter.com/TomMendozaTalks/status/512534619124928512">September 18, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[IrishLion]

I hope he proves me wrong.... but I won't be excited to see Lombard at tackle if Mendoza is right. He will be almost no different from Elmer IMO. Both have issues with establishing their drop step in pass pro, and both have issues with moving their feet consistently during the play.

 

[NDdomer2]

I hope he proves me wrong.... but I won't be excited to see Lombard at tackle if Mendoza is right. He will be almost no different from Elmer IMO. Both have issues with establishing their drop step in pass pro, and both have issues with moving their feet consistently during the play.

So if Elmer is an upgrade at guard and Lombard is equal to Elmer at tackle, then isn't our line still going to be better?

Martin at guard and Hegarty at center? Didn't see that coming.

 

[PANDFAN]

If Martin moves, that's got to be a first for a captain

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

If Martin moves, that's got to be a first for a captain

So I would assume the staff would move Martin because they feel they can leverage him more at guard than at center?

 

[IrishLion]

So if Elmer is an upgrade at guard and Lombard is equal to Elmer at tackle, then isn't our line still going to be better?

I'd like to see if Elmer can be pushed to iron his issues out at tackle since he's got plenty of time, rather than watching a 5th year senior continue to struggle with his footwork in pass pro at the same spot.

I guess it depends on how the staff feels about the future as well; if the plan is to have Nelson/Bars/McGlinchey step up eventually, moving Elmer to guard may simply be a "speeding up the process" type of deal.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I'd like to see if Elmer can be pushed to iron his issues out at tackle since he's got plenty of time, rather than watching a 5th year senior continue to struggle with his footwork in pass pro at the same spot.

I guess it depends on how the staff feels about the future as well; if the plan is to have Nelson/Bars/McGlinchey step up eventually, moving Elmer to guard may simply be a "speeding up the process" type of deal.

This isnt exactly the schedule to let them gel at their own pace. Kelly needs an OL right now. I agree with you about McGlinchey/Nelson/Bars, so it looks like Elmer's home will be at OG anyway. Whatever works right now I guess. I don't think Lombard can be worse than Elmer at blocking DEs in pass pro. Elmer looks like trash out there to be honest, just really really lost with his footwork.

 

[Wild Bill]

I'd like to see if Elmer can be pushed to iron his issues out at tackle since he's got plenty of time, rather than watching a 5th year senior continue to struggle with his footwork in pass pro at the same spot.

I guess it depends on how the staff feels about the future as well; if the plan is to have Nelson/Bars/McGlinchey step up eventually, moving Elmer to guard may simply be a "speeding up the process" type of deal.

Lombard didn't blow my hair back at tackle but he was more than serviceable. I think it's safe to assume he'll step in and be better than he was two years ago. That gives us a RT tackle who is average at worst and above average at best. Instant upgrade, IMO.

This isnt exactly the schedule to let them gel at their own pace. Kelly needs an OL right now. I agree with you about McGlinchey/Nelson/Bars, so it looks like Elmer's home will be at OG anyway. Whatever works right now I guess. I don't think Lombard can be worse than Elmer at blocking DEs in pass pro. Elmer looks like trash out there to be honest, just really really lost with his footwork.

Exactly. I'm not convinced Elmer can't develop into a tackle but we don't have the luxury of time to find out. If he's set on playing tackle, let him work his technique in spring ball and make a come back next season.

 

[irishfan]

Lombard was fine at RT in 2012. He was certainly better than what we've seen out of Elmer so far this year.

Elmer IMO is a better Guard than Lombard. I think this is a good move for now. I think we'd be looking at a slight upgrade at both spots with this move. Elmer has a very high ceiling, but its not at the Tackle spot...at least not this season. I don't think this O-Line will be dominant, but we just need it to be solid if we're going to make any sort of run at 11-1.

Martin was a backup LG in 2012 right? I think I remember he and Zack playing next to each other one game. Maybe the change of scenery will help both he and Hegarty.

 

[Axl Rose]

SO the line will be Stanely-Martin-Hegarty-Elmer-Lombard?

 

[Wild Bill]

SO the line will be Stanely-Martin-Hegarty-Elmer-Lombard?

Or Stanley - Hanratty - Hegarty - Martin - Lombard

 

[wizards8507]

Or Stanley - Hanratty - Hegarty - Martin - Lombard

No way they take Elmer out entirely.

 

[Wild Bill]

No way they take Elmer out entirely.

Why would you rule it out? Kelly has always maintained the best five will play. He's clearly the weakest starter right now.

 

[wizards8507]

Why would you rule it out? Kelly has always maintained the best five will play. He's clearly the weakest starter right now.

He's out of position. Everett Golson would be the "weakest starter" if they lined him up at Mike linebacker. That doesn't mean he shouldn't start, it just means put him in the position to be successful.

 

[pkt77242]

He's out of position. Everett Golson would be the "weakest starter" if they lined him up at Mike linebacker. That doesn't mean he shouldn't start, it just means put him in the position to be successful.

Yep. Elmer is going to start.

I will say that I think our coaches sometimes don't adjust very well though. When Kelly saw that Elmer was getting beat on the outside, why didn't he have a RB chip before going out into a pattern. It would have slowed down the outside pass rusher on that play plus if you did it often enough the pass rusher would start to work more inside knowing that the outside pass rush was being taken away which would have played more to Elmer's strength.

 

[koonja]

He's out of position. Everett Golson would be the "weakest starter" if they lined him up at Mike linebacker. That doesn't mean he shouldn't start, it just means put him in the position to be successful.

Since Golson is about the size of our Mike LB, your point was not received, lol.