OL Needs Some Work

[ulukinatme]

Wanted to get everyone's thoughts on the OL up to this point. I've had a feeling for some time that our run blocking has been sliding the last few years. Tonight Purdue did a pretty good job of pushing us around, we weren't opening a lot of holes. EG was our leading rusher, and we certainly don't want him taking off 14 times a game for the rest of the season, that's a recipe for injury. You take away his 56 yards and we didn't even crack 90 yards between our other 3 backs. We certainly did a piss poor job of running the ball against Michigan too, only 56 yards on 30+ carries.

Don't give me some BS about teams loading the box. You can scheme around that with tosses, reverses, and stretching the field with passes. People load the box against Stanford frequently and they're still able to run the ball, and there are plenty of other teams that can make it happen. We're not doing a great job controlling the line of scrimmage though, and we're not opening holes like we should be with this line imo.

Why is this a concern? Good teams control the line of scrimmage, and if you want to win big bowls you should be able to run the ball. A strong running game would help us later in the season against USC too, BC was absolutely dominant against them running the ball.

 

[Cali_domer]

Most understated title ever lol

 

[Crazy Balki]

Against Michigan, it was understandable. Michigan, despite their flaws, has a really good front 7, so a stacked box for them, going up against any O-line is going to get good results. Against Purdue...no excuses. That was appalling to put it lightly. Honestly, put McGlinchey in at RT and move Elmer inside. He's just not getting it done at RT.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Against Michigan, it was understandable. Michigan, despite their flaws, has a really good front 7, so a stacked box for them, going up j any O-line is going to get good results. Against Purdue...no excuses. That was appalling to put it lightly. Honestly, put McGlinchey in at RT and move Elmer inside. He's just not getting it done at RT.

When you said that the left side of the line this year would be equal to or better than Watt and Martin were, this is why we laughed. Those two were beyond phenomenal together, and while Stanley has an incredibly bright future, it's gonna take awhile to get to that spot.

And Elmer is struggling, but there aren't a lot of options. McGlinchey (sp) looked awful at times in the practices I saw, and reporters have said he same. Tough spot for the coaches...

 

[GBdomer]

But I thought Heistand was the best O line coach in the country? No doubt he can recruit and get some nice pass protection but he can't get a running game going ever. Elmer needs to be moved back to guard, he is just struggling real hard. Move him back to where he is comfortable. I am a Heistand fan but I think he needs to work on those things. No coach is perfect

 

[NDhoosier]

So Heistand is either a godsend or needs to be fired. Just depends on the week I guess.

 

[NDdomer2]

But I thought Heistand was the best O line coach in the country? No doubt he can recruit and get some nice pass protection but he can't get a running game going ever. Elmer needs to be moved back to guard, he is just struggling real hard. Move him back to where he is comfortable. I am a Heistand fan but I think he needs to work on those things. No coach is perfect

We've agreed on this before. If he was everything he'd never left the league IMO. But as mentioned he has been great for our recruiting but run blocking just hasn't been there. Our pass pro has been phenomenal. Maybe recruiting pays off with some natural bulldozers, but his niche is def pass pro development.

By no means am I anti Harry and love what he's done for the programs future at OL. Just still in show me state for the run game.

 

[GBdomer]

We've agreed on this before. If he was everything he'd never left the league IMO. But as mentioned he has been great for our recruiting but run blocking just hasn't been there. Our pass pro has been phenomenal. Maybe recruiting pays off with some natural bulldozers, but his niche is def pass pro development.

By no means am I anti Harry and love what he's done for the programs future at OL. Just still in show me state for the run game.

So you like actually agree with me?

 

[NDdomer2]

So you like actually agree with me?

 

[ulukinatme]

But I thought Heistand was the best O line coach in the country? No doubt he can recruit and get some nice pass protection but he can't get a running game going ever. Elmer needs to be moved back to guard, he is just struggling real hard. Move him back to where he is comfortable. I am a Heistand fan but I think he needs to work on those things. No coach is perfect

I agree. I've been saying for awhile now that Heistand is pretty damn good when it comes to recruiting OL and pass blocking, but the fact is that our running game is getting stuffed against mediocre teams we should be beating at the line of scrimmage. You're right, no coach is perfect, and while Heistand is about as good as they come, I think we definitely need to look at why guys like Folston are getting taken down in the backfield. You can hate Warriner for being a poor recruiter, or being mediocre with pass blocking, or for bolting to OSU, but their run blocking has been pretty superb under him. We could have had two 1000 yard rushers in Warriner's last year with us, 2011, if Gray hadn't gotten hurt. I wouldn't trade Heistand of course, but we're sliding in the trenches when it comes to the run game.

 

[ulukinatme]

Western Michigan and Central Michigan both ran the ball better against Purdue. Even if Purdue was loading the box at times against us, that's kind of sad our talent couldn't at least match the directional school production.

 

[Crazy Balki]

We've agreed on this before. If he was everything he'd never left the league IMO. But as mentioned he has been great for our recruiting but run blocking just hasn't been there. Our pass pro has been phenomenal. Maybe recruiting pays off with some natural bulldozers, but his niche is def pass pro development.

By no means am I anti Harry and love what he's done for the programs future at OL. Just still in show me state for the run game.

I find it hard to believe that a former Bears OL coach's specialty is PASS protection...

 

[arndtjc]

Everyone will stack the box against us, and make Golson beat them in the air since they know we'd dominate on the ground

 

[irishfan]

I'd love to get a real RB rotation going. No more of this having one guy play one drive. No one can get in any rhythm when they play one series and then sit out the next two.

Cam should only be in there on 3rd down. Rotate the other two on other downs.

 

[NDRock]

I'm more afraid that teams can do to us what they did to the Weis/Clausen teams, drop eight into coverage and still stop the run.

 

[greyhammer90]

So Heistand is either a godsend or needs to be fired. Just depends on the week I guess.

Nice strawman. Who said he should be fired?

As I said in the game thread, run blocking is really the one area of Harry's that I'm concerned about. Our pass protection is routinely excellent and we recruit with the best in the country. I also feel like at least part of it may be scheme. Our running backs often have more success when they get to run hard downhill but our option read-style run game often has them standing still with the ball a full half second after the snap, four yards behind the LOS, with zero momentum and not many places to go. Basically I think it's a damn shame that backs like Folston and Bryant need to routinely break a tackle in the backfield to simply gain five yards.

 

[wizards8507]

In fairness to the offensive line, our running game play calling absolutely sucks. All this talk about the read option and I haven't seen it even attempted. We've run some play action out of a read option look, but if there was more of a threat of Golson tucking around the outside, the defense's contain man wouldn't be able to crash on our tailback like they're doing. BC beat an athletically superior team into the ground last night and we've never even tried to do what they did. I still don't buy Everett as a credible threat to run the ball on designed plays, not because he can't, but because we don't call those plays. You need WAY more than two designed QB runs if you're going to be in single back shotgun/pistol sets all game.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

 

[WestCoast]

From Irish Central:

Harry Hiestand’s offensive line needs to take the bye week and figure some things out.

Sure, we understood why Notre Dame’s running game against Michigan looked inept. But schematic excuses aside, there are big problems with Notre Dame’s offensive line play. Notre Dame’s front five was beaten early and often by Purdue’s defensive line, causing problems for both the run and the pass game.

With Matt Hegarty playing in place of an injured Christian Lombard at right guard, the starting five gained only 139 yards on the ground, plodding along to a very pedestrian 3.7 yards per carry. Purdue also managed to get four sacks on Golson, hitting him a handful of other times as well.

After spending time during fall camp trying to decide on a starting five, the group looked as out of sync as it has all season.

“Maybe it’s just the continuity took us a little bit longer,” Kelly said, when talking about his offensive line. “It’s nothing big, but it’s everything. We’re going to get better. We’re not where we need to be.”

It’s clear that for as good as Steve Elmer might one day be, he’s struggling on the edge at right tackle. And while Kelly expects Ronnie Stanley to be an elite left tackle in the future, he had his hands full as well. Both Elmer and Stanley struggled with the pass rush, forcing Golson to work his way out of a few certain sacks. But even the quarterbacks’ heroics weren’t enough to keep the heat off of him.

We’ll see if Mike McGlinchey has earned himself a look at tackle. Or if Elmer slides inside to work in at left guard if Lombard’s ready to play after the off week. But the bye comes at a perfect time for the Irish offensive line, a group that isn’t playing with a lot of confidence.

I don't know whether the arguments offered last week (Michigan stacked the box) or this week (out of sync) are valid, but I don't understand why lack of a consistent running game is a recurring problem. This isn't the first season where the lack of running lanes, opening holes or getting at least one blocker to the next level has been a problem.

USC is starting two true freshman and consistently opened running lanes against Stanford last week, often for very big gains. I don't believe the rest of their line is 5-star seniors, considering the hit they've taken in recruiting.

Even with Lombard (5th year) out, ND is starting a three seniors, a junior and a soph, all of whom played last year. The three seniors are in the interior line, which is where all the runs seem to go. Yet the running back runs straight into a wall (sometimes consisting of the backs of the OL) on most of the plays. If the problem was stacking the box, you'd think they'd still be getting 2-3 yards on most plays.

Don't get it. But I'm not buying the sync or stacking the box argument any more.

 

[Grahambo]

In fairness to the offensive line, our running game play calling absolutely sucks. All this talk about the read option and I haven't seen it even attempted. We've run some play action out of a read option look, but if there was more of a threat of Golson tucking around the outside, the defense's contain man wouldn't be able to crash on our tailback like they're doing. BC beat an athletically superior team into the ground last night and we've never even tried to do what they did. I still don't buy Everett as a credible threat to run the ball on designed plays, not because he can't, but because we don't call those plays. You need WAY more than two designed QB runs if you're going to be in single back shotgun/pistol sets all game.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

My opinion is EG is just too fragile to be taking too many designed runs. Tebow and Cam Newton can handle it because they're huge but they still get banged up.

I may be in the minority but I'm not liking the 3-headed RB rotation. It doesn't give any of the RBs a true feel for the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wizards8507]

My opinion is EG is just too fragile to be taking too many designed runs. Tebow and Cam Newton can handle it because they're huge but they still get banged up.

I may be in the minority but I'm not liking the 3-headed RB rotation. It doesn't give any of the RBs a true feel for the game.

You might be right about Everett, but if that's the case I'd like to see two backs on the field at the same time. We're running single back sets on the premise that our quarterback can run but then not running him.

 

[Grahambo]

You might be right about Everett, but if that's the case I'd like to see two backs on the field at the same time. We're running single back sets on the premise that our quarterback can run but then not running him.

Honest question, when was the last time he took a snap from under center? I know spread offense it's not gonna happen but general curiosity.

The thing with EG is that he is not a running QB. He's a QB with mobility. I think people (not you) mistakenly assume he's a running QB. He looks to throw and will go through his progressions and before he bolts he will still scramble looking to throw before running.

I would definitely like to see TF and GB together on the field maybe toss Cam in the slot for different looks. Would like Smythe to get some burn along with Luatua. Mostly to give different looks. I've noticed more stacking of the box.

Now, that could be on purpose with Stanford and FSU in the next month but variety is healthy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wizards8507]

The thing with EG is that he is not a running QB. He's a QB with mobility. I think people (not you) mistakenly assume he's a running QB. He looks to throw and will go through his progressions and before he bolts he will still scramble looking to throw before running.

That's exactly the problem. If we're not designing runs for him, there's nothing to keep opposing DEs honest. They'll crash all day long. We need QB sweeps, read option, jet motion, a fullback, counters, ANYTHING other than zone left, zone right, zone dive.

 

[IrishLax]

Holy shit Purdue had 4 sacks!?!? That's the worst job of pass protection we've done in at least 2 years (Stanford 2012?) on paper. How is that even possible with how bad Purdue is?

I, and many others, thought the OL would not be good this year at least early on. You're talking about a massive downgrade from a 4 year starter top NFL draft pick left tackle to Stanley who has great potential but isn't a refined and consistent product yet.

Elmer is/was clearly better suited for guard until he learns how to play either the pass or run from RT. Lombard is just simply not that good, and it seems like Hegarty isn't that great either. Nick Martin is loved by many but I've never been super sold on him (people who know more think I'm wrong on this though). Hanratty has always impressed me in the run game.

I want to see what happened, but on paper and looking at the first two games this bye week should be a time to get auditions from the other guys (Bars/Nelson/McGlinchey at tackle and Bivin/McGovern/Montelus inside) as much as it is about getting the guys currently out there to play well.

 

[wizards8507]

Lombard didn't play.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

 

[Buster Bluth]

USC is starting two true freshman and consistently opened running lanes against Stanford last week, often for very big gains. I don't believe the rest of their line is 5-star seniors, considering the hit they've taken in recruiting.

And yet they only rushed for 20 yards against Boston College.

 

[IrishLax]

Lombard didn't play.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

Yeah exactly... hence what I said about Hegarty.

 

[Crazy Balki]

When you said that the left side of the line this year would be equal to or better than Watt and Martin were, this is why we laughed. Those two were beyond phenomenal together, and while Stanley has an incredibly bright future, it's gonna take awhile to get to that spot.

And Elmer is struggling, but there aren't a lot of options. McGlinchey (sp) looked awful at times in the practices I saw, and reporters have said he same. Tough spot for the coaches...

Normally I'd have to eat crow for that, but I don't have to since my projected left side was Stanley and Elmer, not Stanley and Hanratty. Elmer at RT is just not working out. Moving him back to guard would be ideal, because he was thriving at that position. He just doesn't have the footwork down. It's confusing, because size-wise, he's most definitely a tackle, but he plays like a guard. So far the line has been disappointing.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Holy shit Purdue had 4 sacks!?!? That's the worst job of pass protection we've done in at least 2 years (Stanford 2012?) on paper. How is that even possible with how bad Purdue is?

I, and many others, thought the OL would not be good this year at least early on. You're talking about a massive downgrade from a 4 year starter top NFL draft pick left tackle to Stanley who has great potential but isn't a refined and consistent product yet.

Elmer is/was clearly better suited for guard until he learns how to play either the pass or run from RT. Lombard is just simply not that good, and it seems like Hegarty isn't that great either. Nick Martin is loved by many but I've never been super sold on him (people who know more think I'm wrong on this though). Hanratty has always impressed me in the run game.

I want to see what happened, but on paper and looking at the first two games this bye week should be a time to get auditions from the other guys (Bars/Nelson/McGlinchey at tackle and Bivin/McGovern/Montelus inside) as much as it is about getting the guys currently out there to play well.

I would atleast two of those sacks were coverage sacks. Golson hung on to the ball way to long IMO. The without Amir and DD in the game Golson was t comfortable. Fuller had a few more drops. Brow is non existent. I don't blaime the line for all those sacks.


Sent via tapatalk

 

[autry_denson]

When you said that the left side of the line this year would be equal to or better than Watt and Martin were, this is why we laughed. Those two were beyond phenomenal together, and while Stanley has an incredibly bright future, it's gonna take awhile to get to that spot.

And Elmer is struggling, but there aren't a lot of options. McGlinchey (sp) looked awful at times in the practices I saw, and reporters have said he same. Tough spot for the coaches...

Whole lot of people on here, including some great posters like OMM, seemed to think that the OL would be perfectly fine after losing those two stalwarts on the left side. I don't think the OL problems have much at all to do with Hiestand, I think it's what happens when young, inexperienced players (even w lots of talent) replace the likes of Watt and Martin.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Funny thread.

The starting five for Purdue was not close to the anticipated starting five for the season.

Lombard was an animal against Rice, and did well against U of M until he hurt his ankle. That alone is enough to throw the continuity of a starting line off. That way you have two unanticipated starters at the guard position.

And anyone I heard that talked about this years line, compared this years line at the end of this season to the line of years past. That is implicit that this years line needed lots of experience and time to play together. Please don't forget that when you want to start an argument, er, a, engage in a conversation.

The defensive ends for Purdue were fast like Rice and big like Michigan. Both tackles were in battles. People may complain about Elmer, but the fact is his man had to leave the field twice due to injury.

Stanly held their best defensive linemen at bay. And in the second half they continually took the de's around and too deep to be part of the play. So there was a huge open gap between the guards and tackles. It gave someone spying Golson plenty of room to attack as there were few blockers available running the number of open sets that ND showed.

Last weeks stacking the inside gaps comment was about defeating an inside zone running game. I do not like an inside zone running game. And that is why. Last year when teams beat it (as they often did) ND bounced outside with TR at the helm. This year with EG we don't have to bounce it outside. Yesterday, the staff put the team on EG's back. That was the worst thing in my opinion. What if Golson had gotten hurt?

Some of the most egregious errors in blocking were against backs, ends, and wide receivers. In fact, Purdue's defensive backfield was by far the best that we have seen this year. Coincidentally, two of the players in the back four, didn't play their first action of the season until last night. Kind of sucks for scouting, doesn't it? And they were key to blitzes, or backs playing up that stuck it to the running game.

How many players were we down by at the end of the game? 14 or more? And people are bitching about coming out with a victory. Remember, this is the Baby Irish. They are already an inexperienced team. With many starters gone. And now they (particularly the offensive and defensive line has had to shift players around) which really makes continuity hard to achieve.