Offensive Line Thread

[NDdomer2]

Kizer was a genius when he left early. He got paid before he was ruined here.

then got ruined elsewhere. if anything ND was the only one who maximized Kizer's talents.

 

[Domina Nostra]

then got ruined elsewhere. if anything ND was the only one who maximized Kizer's talents.

Also helps to have Fuller to throw to. Tua basically has 3 in Tuscaloosa.

 

[Irish YJ]

2019
Tyler Huntley, UTAH
Jack Coan, WISCONSIN

2018
D’Eriq King, HOUSTON

2017
McKenzie Milton, UCF
Trace McSorley, PSU

That’s the 3* QB’s in the top 10 of QBR. Obviously the most likely killer QB’s are 4-5*’s that don’t have the height or arm limitations but there are still some 3*’s that made the list. I would love it if ND would recruit all 4*-5* talent that’s 6’4” 230 and can sling the ball around the field but the simple fact is that ND hasn’t recruited too many of them. The bottom line is that ND continues to bring in 4* talent at the QB position and hopefully that turns into one star on the field at all times. Here’s a look at a few of the top QB rooms in college football...

Notre Dame
RS JR .8681 3* Ian Book
RS FR .9593 4* Phil Jurkovec
FR .8796 3* Brendon Clark
HS SR .9251 4* Drew Pyne
HS JR .9718 4* Tyler Buchner

Michigan
SR .9982 5* Shea Patterson
RS SO .9435 4* Dylan McCaffrey
RS FR .9202 4* Joe Milton
FR .9052 4* Cade McNamara
HS SR .8871 3* JD Johnson
HS JR .9895 4* JJ McCarthy

Clemson
RS SO .8818 3* Chase Brice
SO .9999 5* Trevor Lawrence
FR .9152 4* Taisun Phommachanh
HS SR .9985 5* DJ Uiagalelei

Alabama
JR .9841 5* Tua Tagovailoa
RS SO .8815 4* Mac Jones
FR .9269 4* Taulia Tagovailoa
FR .8972 4* Paul Tyson
HS SR .9901 5* Bryce Young
HS JR .9691 4* Drake Maye

Georgia
JR .9794 5* Jake Fromm
RS SO .8304 3* Stetson Bennett
FR .8992 4* D’Wan Mathis
HS SR .9366 4* Carson Beck

LSU
RS SR .9003 4* Joe Burrow
RS SO .9347 4* Myles Brennan
FR .8988 3* Peter Parrish
HS SR .9125 4* Max Johnson
HS SR .8858 4* TJ Finley

ND is up there with any team in the country in terms of talent in the pipeline and depth at the position. Now obviously what is important is to have one super talented dude and in that regard, Clemson has the top dude coming in next season to sit for a year and then start when Lawrence leaves but injuries happen and busts happen. If ND can follow up Buchner and Pyne with a 4* level QB then you’ve stacked 3 straight top QB’s together and you’ll see an Alabama level depth chart of QB’s of which I’m sure they’ll be able to find one star. Just keep stacking 4-5*’s at the QB position. That’s the name of the game.

Don't forget UGA let two 5 star guys transfer (Fields and Eason).

 

[ulukinatme]

#Quinning.

This actually really upsets me with Ian Book.

Guys, we're sacrificing having a great OL, a NFL WR, NFL TE, the best DEs and safeties we've had in 2 decades, and a world class defensive coordinator.... all on a QB regressing when we have 5-star-Phil in his 3rd year and healthy.

Baker Mayfield had to transfer to play. Jacob Easton had to get hurt to give Fromm a chance.... the coaches don't always know best.

This was our year to win it all with Clemson and Bama looking beatable, and we decided to play it safe rather than go for the kill with 5-star-Phil.

You think Clemson and Bama are any more beatable this season than they are any other season? What is your reasoning, because Clemson had a close game against UNC, and Bama only beat South Carolina by 24? I have news for you, this is nothing new. Last season it was a close game against Syracuse that could have doomed Clemson's chances. Alabama didn't really have any close one last season, but in previous seasons it was either Ole Miss that gave them a game, or in a few cases Tennessee or A&M. The point is both teams are just as good this season as they are any other season, they'll come out and play come playoff time.

Second, people need to forget about recruiting stars once a player hits college. For one, players quite often fail to live up to their billing, and other players will rise above their perceived status. You can't base a depth chart on the perceptions of talent scouts. If Phil has failed to unseat a "3 star" recruit in Book by now, there's probably a good reason. Kelly has shown in the past he has no problems benching a QB that fails at his job, and more often than not the coaches know better than the armchair QBs do. There are exceptions, like when Crist started in place of Rees in 2011...that was a disaster waiting to happen, and another example where recruiting stars meant absolutely nothing. If Book is truly regressing, and Phil is proving himself, he'll get his opportunity.

Kizer was a genius when he left early. He got paid before he was ruined here.

Are you sure? We went 9-3 in the regular season with Wimbush the year after Kizer left. Kizer likely would have helped us to 11-1 (I don't think he could have salvaged that Miami debacle) had he stayed and it probably would have further enhanced his draft stock. What if Kizer winds up somewhere else other than Cleveland and is given time to grow rather than being thrust into the starting role? Not only would he have made more money getting drafted as a 1st rounder, but he wouldn't have had he rocky start to his career. I'm not saying he could have been the next Tom Brady, but by coming out early he probably took a lower paycheck going in the 2nd round and if he doesn't make it past his rookie contract (He's already been traded from one team and released from the next) he will have lost possibly millions of dollars.

 

[condoms SUCk]

Phil should have played 3 quarters against BG and NM instead of Book padding his normally terrible stats. I can understand not against GA or USC but against those cupcakes, there was no reason to have Book in that late in the game.

Yup, Book was in those games b/c the staff knew he's was/been struggling and he needed the reps which leads me to my prediction/hope.........

After the UM game, we'll see more and more PJ in games (meaningful reps too, not just mop up duty)
This staff has to know that our chances of making the playoff's this year are slim (some really weird shit would have to happen) and the way our bowl picture is shaping up we could be getting a shitty #2 ACC match up.
Ergo, play PJ more on the backside of the schedule and start making that transition for next year. We return the whole o-line and skilled, TE's and WR's, let Phil build some in live action chemistry with those guys.

Not sure how the D is going to look next year so IMO we're gonna have to score and score a lot, like average 40+ points. Can't afford another blah offensive year and make the playoffs with that schedule, no way in he!!.

Unless they're going to write off 2020 and shoot for 2021.

 

[condoms SUCk]

You think Clemson and Bama are any more beatable this season than they are any other season? What is your reasoning, because Clemson had a close game against UNC, and Bama only beat South Carolina by 24? I have news for you, this is nothing new. Last season it was a close game against Syracuse that could have doomed Clemson's chances. Alabama didn't really have any close one last season, but in previous seasons it was either Ole Miss that gave them a game, or in a few cases Tennessee or A&M. The point is both teams are just as good this season as they are any other season, they'll come out and play come playoff time.

Second, people need to forget about recruiting stars once a player hits college. For one, players quite often fail to live up to their billing, and other players will rise above their perceived status. You can't base a depth chart on the perceptions of talent scouts. If Phil has failed to unseat a "3 star" recruit in Book by now, there's probably a good reason. Kelly has shown in the past he has no problems benching a QB that fails at his job, and more often than not the coaches know better than the armchair QBs do. There are exceptions, like when Crist started in place of Rees in 2011...that was a disaster waiting to happen, and another example where recruiting stars meant absolutely nothing. If Book is truly regressing, and Phil is proving himself, he'll get his opportunity.

Hence why Kelly is gun shy about having a QB as a captain.

 

[koonja]

Hence why Kelly is gun shy about having a QB as a captain.

This is actually a really good observation and point.

 

[Irish#1]

Second, people need to forget about recruiting stars once a player hits college. For one, players quite often fail to live up to their billing, and other players will rise above their perceived status. You can't base a depth chart on the perceptions of talent scouts. If Phil has failed to unseat a "3 star" recruit in Book by now, there's probably a good reason. Kelly has shown in the past he has no problems benching a QB that fails at his job, and more often than not the coaches know better than the armchair QBs do. There are exceptions, like when Crist started in place of Rees in 2011...that was a disaster waiting to happen, and another example where recruiting stars meant absolutely nothing. If Book is truly regressing, and Phil is proving himself, he'll get his opportunity.

Yep, they find out everybody is good at this level and some start feeling the pressure or questioning themselves once the competition gets ramped up considerably.

Coaches know better than us? Child, puleeze.

Are you sure? We went 9-3 in the regular season with Wimbush the year after Kizer left. Kizer likely would have helped us to 11-1 (I don't think he could have salvaged that Miami debacle) had he stayed and it probably would have further enhanced his draft stock. What if Kizer winds up somewhere else other than Cleveland and is given time to grow rather than being thrust into the starting role? Not only would he have made more money getting drafted as a 1st rounder, but he wouldn't have had he rocky start to his career. I'm not saying he could have been the next Tom Brady, but by coming out early he probably took a lower paycheck going in the 2nd round and if he doesn't make it past his rookie contract (He's already been traded from one team and released from the next) he will have lost possibly millions of dollars.

Maybe not. Wimbush was a deer in the headlights. Kizer never showed that insecurity.

 

[snoopdog]

Also helps to have Fuller to throw to. Tua basically has 3 in Tuscaloosa.

He has Claypool, who has caught everything that has been catchable this season. He just doesn't throw to him.

I can't understand it. Claypool is a vacuum. It doesn't matter how close the coverage is, Claypool is basically open. Throw him the damn ball.

 

[condoms SUCk]

He has Claypool, who has caught everything that has been catchable this season. He just doesn't throw to him.

I can't understand it. Claypool is a vacuum. It doesn't matter how close the coverage is, Claypool is basically open. Throw him the damn ball.

He can't, he's too busy running for his life behind a terrible o-line.

 

[Irishize]

To play devil's advocate...
This is what Wimbush supporters said (including myself), he was winning after all...

And Wimbush possessed the same advantages over Book that Phil does: Strong arm that can push the ball downfield & better runner than Book. But Phil reportedly struggles w/ short-to-intermediate passes...just like Brandon.

 

[BobbyMac]

And Wimbush possessed the same advantages over Book that Phil does: Strong arm that can push the ball downfield & better runner than Book. But Phil reportedly struggles w/ short-to-intermediate passes...just like Brandon.

When was the last time you heard Phil was having problems on short/intermediate passes? Which site?

 

[arndtjc]

I am so sorry for throwing this one off the rails ya’ll

 

[ThePiombino]

And Wimbush possessed the same advantages over Book that Phil does: Strong arm that can push the ball downfield & better runner than Book. But Phil reportedly struggles w/ short-to-intermediate passes...just like Brandon.

First I'm hearing that Phil struggles with short-to-intermediate passes.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Irish YJ]

First I'm hearing that Phil struggles with short-to-intermediate passes.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

reported up through spring practice this year. not sure how he looked in fall practice.

 

[ThePiombino]

reported up through spring practice this year. not sure how he looked in fall practice.

Heard mostly positive stuff during fall practice.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[NDinL.A.]

First I'm hearing that Phil struggles with short-to-intermediate passes.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

I went to about 5 spring practices. He got progressively worse throughout the spring, and yes, anything other than a bomb was a struggle.

I also saw several fall practices as well, and PJ got progressively better, to his credit.

But every practice I attended, Book was better. More accurate, less INTs and he moved the offense much better. Most of Kyle Hamilton’s picks that I saw were coming against PJ.

Book absolutely needs to improve, but inputting 5* before Phil’s name as some posters love to do as a reason to replace Book is disingenuous at best, bc Phil has yet to perform like a 5 star. He might do it, but for some fans, there’s a total expectation that he’ll be some superstar and he’ll take us to a title, when nothing I’ve personally seen from him suggests that. I wouldn’t replace Book with him yet, that’s for sure. It could happen someday, but I wouldn’t do it yet, personally.

 

[Irish YJ]

I went to about 5 spring practices. He got progressively worse throughout the spring, and yes, anything other than a bomb was a struggle.

I also saw several fall practices as well, and PJ got progressively better, to his credit.

But every practice I attended, Book was better. More accurate, less INTs and he moved the offense much better. Most of Kyle Hamilton’s picks that I saw were coming against PJ.

Book absolutely needs to improve, but inputting 5* before Phil’s name as some posters love to do as a reason to replace Book is disingenuous at best, bc Phil has yet to perform like a 5 star. He might do it, but for some fans, there’s a total expectation that he’ll be some superstar and he’ll take us to a title, when nothing I’ve personally seen from him suggests that. I wouldn’t replace Book with him yet, that’s for sure. It could happen someday, but I wouldn’t do it yet, personally.

Thank LA. Can you share specific areas he struggled in during the fall, and also the areas he improved most in. Also, does Rees/Long/BK still appear to be trying to change his mechanics.

 

[beryirish]

I went to about 5 spring practices. He got progressively worse throughout the spring, and yes, anything other than a bomb was a struggle.

I also saw several fall practices as well, and PJ got progressively better, to his credit.

But every practice I attended, Book was better. More accurate, less INTs and he moved the offense much better. Most of Kyle Hamilton’s picks that I saw were coming against PJ.

Book absolutely needs to improve, but inputting 5* before Phil’s name as some posters love to do as a reason to replace Book is disingenuous at best, bc Phil has yet to perform like a 5 star. He might do it, but for some fans, there’s a total expectation that he’ll be some superstar and he’ll take us to a title, when nothing I’ve personally seen from him suggests that. I wouldn’t replace Book with him yet, that’s for sure. It could happen someday, but I wouldn’t do it yet, personally.

Good to see you back mate.

 

[BobbyMac]

A word from the originator of 5*Phil:

There is nothing "disingenuous" about my use of the name 5*Phil.

PJ was a 5* on Friday nights in HS. He had a 5* HS career.

The reason he wasn't named a 5* by a bunch of wanna be journalists that were walk on golfers at D3 schools was because basketball got in the way.

Back to the O line talk.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Thank LA. Can you share specific areas he struggled in during the fall, and also the areas he improved most in. Also, does Rees/Long/BK still appear to be trying to change his mechanics.

His throwing motion looks a lot cleaner now than it did when he arrived. I think the struggles in the Spring were due to them trying to adjust it. Would love to hear more on this.

 

[Irish YJ]

His throwing motion looks a lot cleaner now than it did when he arrived. I think the struggles in the Spring were due to them trying to adjust it. Would love to hear more on this.

Anytime I hear about mechanics or throwing motion adjustments, i automatically assume 2 year project.... Accurate or not, I didn't think we'd see PJ till 20 at the earliest if not 21. I'd love to be wrong though.

I really want to see him play a bunch against VT.

A word from the originator of 5*Phil:

There is nothing "disingenuous" about my use of the name 5*Phil.

PJ was a 5* on Friday nights in HS. He had a 5* HS career.

The reason he wasn't named a 5* by a bunch of wanna be journalists that were walk on golfers at D3 schools was because basketball got in the way.

Back to the O line talk.

Crus, what the hell is up with 10 star Trevor?

 

[Luckylucci]

Re-watch. First drive killer was a hold on Kraemer and a bad throw by Book. Didn’t realize previously that Finke has at least a step for that first down. What a bad throw with a perfect pocket.

 

[NDMontana]

Just for some perspective when was the last time ND had a great college QB—aside from Matt Lovecchio—who threw his teams on his back? I am 39 so Montana and Theisman predate me: my memory starts with the Holtz era, which was not particularly QB dependent. There was Powlus, who was very good but when did he ever have to pack the team ala Tebow or Vince Young? He made some plays but...I don’t think he was great.

I won’t bother with the Davie nor Willingham errors...er...eras. Weis: Quinn was really good as a junior but, again, not great and then as a senior he was slightly better than average as I recall. Then came Clausen, Crist, Golson, Zaire, Kizer, Wimbush....not one of these guys lived up to our expectations. Maybe it was coaching, perhaps they were not as talented as we supposed. Who knows?

Point being that as of now, Kelly has proven himself to be a very good coach and our clamoring for the highly recruited back-up to see the field never works out. So we might as well put a sock in it and realize that PJ might not be what we all hoped. Or maybe he needs more work. Who knows?

One thing has emerged about Brian Kelly that is true of almost everybody aside from neurotics: he wants predictability. Given the choice between:
A. A QB who has potential to play like a top five QB or like D3 QB with no level of consistency, perhaps even varying from drive to drive; or

B. A QB who at his best will play like a top 30 QB and at his worst like a MAC level QB but consistently plays somewhere close to an upper echelon ACC or Big Ten QB

He is going to take B. And I would, too. No matter what we may think, as human beings we want consistency and predictability. Really, I would rather work for somebody who is a jerk every day than somebody who is a roller coaster from day to day. Can’t imagine coaching is different: you want to know both what kind of game plan you can draw up and that odds are good that you can stick with it. Book gives Kelly that. Rees gave Kelly that. Kizer kind of gave him that. Golson, Zaire, Wimbush and perhaps, though it is yet to be seen, Jurkovic obviously did not or, in PJ’s case, does not give him that.

Book it is then. And a reminder to be careful what you wish for.

 

[ulukinatme]

Odd that you would use Matt Lovecchio there. He came in for Arnaz Battle once he was injured, and he played a lot of average to bad teams in 2000 before getting blown out by Oregon State and then the next year he was quickly replaced by Carlisle Holiday and then transferred out. Are you pulling my leg? I'm 95% sure you are, but some people get really attached to some backups.

The last QB that I think could really put the team on his back and find a way to win was Quinn. I'm not saying the other QBs haven't stepped up in some big games....I think about Rees' TD run against Michigan in 2012, or Kizer leaping for extra yards against Temple and getting hit in the air when we desperately needed a first down and momentum. I think each of our QBs has put themselves on the line at some point for a win, but with Quinn I always felt like in a one score game, if he's got the ball in his hands we had a shot. He proved that against USC in 2005, calling his own number to get us a TD and go up...only to have the defense and the PAC-12 refs blow it at the end. He orchestrated that awesome drive against UCLA in 2006, and he battled back against tOSU in the Fiesta bowl until the defense blew that one too. He's not my favorite QB to play in my lifetime, but he was fun watch.

I get what you're saying about predictability though, and I totally agree. Book is my QB, until someone else on the roster proves they can take care of the football and consistently move the ball. PJ may be able to launch the ball, but if you can't make the easy throws you're going to sit on the bench. That's just the way it is. Recruiting stars mean very little once you actually get to college, it's time to suit up and show what you can do. A Scout's analysis does not get you on the depth chart.

 

[Irishize]

When was the last time you heard Phil was having problems on short/intermediate passes? Which site?

Sorry, just saw this. I heard this on one of the podcasts. It was either II or ISD.

 

[NDMontana]

Odd that you would use Matt Lovecchio there. He came in for Arnaz Battle once he was injured, and he played a lot of average to bad teams in 2000 before getting blown out by Oregon State and then the next year he was quickly replaced by Carlisle Holiday and then transferring out. Are you pulling my leg? I'm 95% sure you are, but some people get really attached to some backups.

The last QB that I think could really put the team on his back and find a way to win was Quinn. I'm not saying the other QBs haven't stepped up in some big games....I think about Rees' TD run against Michigan in 2012, or Kizer leaping for extra yards against Temple and getting hit in the air when we desperately needed a first down and momentum. I think each of our QBs has put themselves on the line at some point for a win, but with Quinn I always felt like in a one score game, if he's got the ball in his hands we had a shot. He proved that against USC in 2005, calling his own number to get us a TD and go up...only to have the defense and the PAC-12 refs blow it at the end. He orchestrated that awesome drive against UCLA in 2006, and he battled back against tOSU in the Fiesta bowl until the defense blew that one too. He's not my favorite QB to play in my lifetime, but he was fun watch.

I get what you're saying about predictability though, and I totally agree. Book is my QB, until someone else on the roster proves they can take care of the football and consistently move the ball. PJ may be able to launch the ball, but if you can't make the easy throws you're going to sit on the bench. That's just the way it is. Recruiting stars mean very little once you actually get to college, it's time to suit up and show what you can do. A Scout's analysis does not get you on the depth chart.

Totally joking about Lovecchio.

 

[IrishFaninTX]

Just for some perspective when was the last time ND had a great college QB—aside from Matt Lovecchio—who threw his teams on his back? I am 39 so Montana and Theisman predate me: my memory starts with the Holtz era, which was not particularly QB dependent. There was Powlus, who was very good but when did he ever have to pack the team ala Tebow or Vince Young? He made some plays but...I don’t think he was great.

I won’t bother with the Davie nor Willingham errors...er...eras. Weis: Quinn was really good as a junior but, again, not great and then as a senior he was slightly better than average as I recall. Then came Clausen, Crist, Golson, Zaire, Kizer, Wimbush....not one of these guys lived up to our expectations. Maybe it was coaching, perhaps they were not as talented as we supposed. Who knows?

Point being that as of now, Kelly has proven himself to be a very good coach and our clamoring for the highly recruited back-up to see the field never works out. So we might as well put a sock in it and realize that PJ might not be what we all hoped. Or maybe he needs more work. Who knows?

One thing has emerged about Brian Kelly that is true of almost everybody aside from neurotics: he wants predictability. Given the choice between:
A. A QB who has potential to play like a top five QB or like D3 QB with no level of consistency, perhaps even varying from drive to drive; or

B. A QB who at his best will play like a top 30 QB and at his worst like a MAC level QB but consistently plays somewhere close to an upper echelon ACC or Big Ten QB

He is going to take B. And I would, too. No matter what we may think, as human beings we want consistency and predictability. Really, I would rather work for somebody who is a jerk every day than somebody who is a roller coaster from day to day. Can’t imagine coaching is different: you want to know both what kind of game plan you can draw up and that odds are good that you can stick with it. Book gives Kelly that. Rees gave Kelly that. Kizer kind of gave him that. Golson, Zaire, Wimbush and perhaps, though it is yet to be seen, Jurkovic obviously did not or, in PJ’s case, does not give him that.

Book it is then. And a reminder to be careful what you wish for.

I feel if we didn't have possibly the worst defense ND has ever fielded in 2009 (2007 might have been worse), Jimmy Clausen would have won the Heisman. He was pinpoint accurate and I believe only had 4 picks to like 40 TD passes. He was a statue, no mobility at all, but he was a fantastic pocket QB. The defense consistently gave up late scores after he battled back to take the lead late. Every game was a shootout. He scored in most possessions but so did the opposing teams. Every loss was by a TD or less. So yeah he didn't live up to the hype of winning multiple championships, or even 1, but that's why offense puts fans in the seats and defense wins championships.

 

[EddytoNow]

I feel if we didn't have possibly the worst defense ND has ever fielded in 2009 (2007 might have been worse), Jimmy Clausen would have won the Heisman. He was pinpoint accurate and I believe only had 4 picks to like 40 TD passes. He was a statue, no mobility at all, but he was a fantastic pocket QB. The defense consistently gave up late scores after he battled back to take the lead late. Every game was a shootout. He scored in most possessions but so did the opposing teams. Every loss was by a TD or less. So yeah he didn't live up to the hype of winning multiple championships, or even 1, but that's why offense puts fans in the seats and defense wins championships.

I agree that Clausen put the offense on his back and carried them to a number of late game scores. He benefited from two outstanding receivers (Tate and Floyd), but his offensive line was porous and ineffective. And he played nearly a full season with turf toe. Unfortunately, the defense was awful and lost multiple leads and a number of games we should have won. The defensive failures (and the resulting losses) prevented Clausen from being credited with all the comebacks he engineered.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Now that the regular season is over, let's take a look at how the OL performed: the usual borderline elite stats in pass protection (15th in unadjusted sack rate), but a middling 56th in ALY.

Even with the injuries, it still feels like we're significantly underperforming our talent level. My skepticism of Quinn as Hiestand's successor hasn't changed.