Nov 2 | Navy

[GoldenIsThyFame]

What does everyone think the over/under on Carlisle getting more than 10 snaps a game is now?

Did he even get one offensive snap Saturday? I only recall him on the field once for the fake reverse on a kick return.

 

[tko]

Did he even get one offensive snap Saturday? I only recall him on the field once for the fake reverse on a kick return.

Carlisle has been fitted for the full length ND sideline coat for the remainder of the season. Thanks for coming son.

 

[PANDFAN]

Did he even get one offensive snap Saturday? I only recall him on the field once for the fake reverse on a kick return.

he got a screen pass that he dropped...it was thrown like a rocket at point blank range but according to ofd podcast he turned the wrong way in which it was thrown making it even harder

Carlisle has been fitted for the full length ND sideline coat for the remainder of the season. Thanks for coming son.

that my friend was funny

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Keep posting, I see the panda,





but it is in the shade!

 

[PANDFAN]

Keep posting, I see the panda,





but it is in the shade!

i stare at them...and try to see the panda and then i immediately focus back to them

 

[ndfi78]

i stare at them...and try to see the panda and then i immediately focus back to them

I just want to know who she is...

 

[PANDFAN]

 

[PANDFAN]

I just want to know who she is...

not sure...but check this link where i got it from....i can't even look at it because well.....oh just take a look Hot Sexy Girl With Tattoo Design (Pictures) Part 9 - Tattoos - Zimbio

 

[Buster Bluth]

I haven't really said my piece, so I thought I would point this out, since Lou Holtz left in 1996, the series hasn't been as filled with blowouts as one might think. Even less so when Paul Johnson got to Navy and installed the triple-option offense in 2002 (I assume that's when it started?):

1997: 21-17 ND
1998: 30-0 ND
1999: 28-24 ND
2000: 45-14 ND
2001: 34-16 ND
2002: 30-23 ND
2003: 27-24 ND
2004: 27-9 ND
2005: 42-21 ND
2006: 38-14 ND
2007: 46-44 Navy
2008: 27-21 ND
2009: 23-21 Navy
2010: 35-17 Navy
2011: 56-14 ND
2012: 50-10 ND
2013: 38-34 ND

Eight one-possession games in 17 years, six out of twelve since the triple-option was installed. Not only that, 6/9 home games for Notre Dame have been one-possession games. Is it because they normally play late in the year and the turf provides awful footing? It seems to be to be more than coincidence.

 

[ulukinatme]

My uncle, an OSU fan, was joking about the team celebrating after the Navy win last weekend. I think he forgets not that long ago the Buckeyes also struggled with the Midshipmen. In 2009 Navy was attempting to tie the game on a 2 point conversion with a minute to go in the 4th when the attempt was stopped. Navy isn't a team to be taken lightly. Their execution is usually superb, and their discipline is unmatched. As we saw Saturday, sometimes just a couple mistakes can easily cost you the game.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Well Ohio State can take its 88th-ranked schedule and shove it up Urban's ***.

 

[BGIF]

Well Ohio State can take its 88th-ranked schedule and shove it up Urban's ***.

I wish you would stop beating around the bush.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I'm (re)watching the game after not seeing it due to my brother's wedding and watching it at 8am the next day while being beyond hungover.

All I have to say is: 1) if there isn't artificial turf next year, we need a "Fire Swarbrick!" thread, 2) while Diaco and Co didn't do too well, can we give some credit to what Kelly and Martin have done with the offense the last month or so:

Arizona State: 424 yards
Southern Cal: on pace for ~450(?) before Rees went out
Air Force: 466 yards
Navy: 506 yards

 

[ulukinatme]

Arizona State: 424 yards
Southern Cal: on pace for ~450(?) before Rees went out
Air Force: 466 yards
Navy: 506 yards

Bench Reesus

 

[irishff1014]

I'm (re)watching the game after not seeing it due to my brother's wedding and watching it at 8am the next day while being beyond hungover.

All I have to say is: 1) if there isn't artificial turf next year, we need a "Fire Swarbrick!" thread, 2) while Diaco and Co didn't do too well, can we give some credit to what Kelly and Martin have done with the offense the last month or so:

Arizona State: 424 yards
Southern Cal: on pace for ~450(?) before Rees went out
Air Force: 466 yards
Navy: 506 yards

Those numbers are not bad looking at all.

 

[TheSunIsRising]

Doesn't that defender lead with the helmet? To me, that play is 10X worse than what Farley was called for when the helmet contact was incidental.

 

[PANDFAN]

Doesn't that defender lead with the helmet? To me, that play is 10X worse than what Farley was called for when the helmet contact was incidental.

YES
if troy doesn't stop on a dime and whiff him....he is getting his bell rung because that helmet was on target to smash him in the side of the facemask

 

[Old Man Mike]

I have two unpopular things to offer:

A). I have no romanticism about the service academies; Navy is the dirtiest team in college football and I have no admiration about their ball at all;

B). In order to obliterate Navy, you must have a fast defense which is also powerful up the middle. Notre Dame has rarely been fast, so Navy can possess the ball a lot; thus close games. Last year we played fast, and we played Big Lou football in the Meathouse; therefore a romp.

.... and to go on to utter unpopularity: Diaco arrays his defense not to lose. He is Mr. Conservative, and relies on offensive errors to stop opponent drives [this includes penalties]. If teams have precision drives, they will score or at a minimum eat the clock. In my heretical opinion, Bobby D needs to grow a pair and give his DLinemen the green light to do more penetrating. Then he needs to get his speed on the field especially against "system" teams like USN --- even replacing more thuggish outside linebackers with converted safeties if necessary --- teams are doing this all over the country.

This extra speed does two things: it occasionally makes a big play for a loss or a turnover; and when one guy makes an error, three other speed guys get there anyway. I know we have injuries, but Bobby D was misusing Lou anyway [getting him off the center's head so it was easy to double and move him], and "solving" the giant loss of Grace by maxing out the reps of slow people rather than trying speed [now sadly it's too late for Councell too].

This whole season for me has been a defensive fiasco. Thank God for Kelly's offense and Tommy.

 

[ulukinatme]

I have two unpopular things to offer:

A). I have no romanticism about the service academies; Navy is the dirtiest team in college football and I have no admiration about their ball at all;

B). In order to obliterate Navy, you must have a fast defense which is also powerful up the middle. Notre Dame has rarely been fast, so Navy can possess the ball a lot; thus close games. Last year we played fast, and we played Big Lou football in the Meathouse; therefore a romp.

.... and to go on to utter unpopularity: Diaco arrays his defense not to lose. He is Mr. Conservative, and relies on offensive errors to stop opponent drives [this includes penalties]. If teams have precision drives, they will score or at a minimum eat the clock. In my heretical opinion, Bobby D needs to grow a pair and give his DLinemen the green light to do more penetrating. Then he needs to get his speed on the field especially against "system" teams like USN --- even replacing more thuggish outside linebackers with converted safeties if necessary --- teams are doing this all over the country.

This extra speed does two things: it occasionally makes a big play for a loss or a turnover; and when one guy makes an error, three other speed guys get there anyway. I know we have injuries, but Bobby D was misusing Lou anyway [getting him off the center's head so it was easy to double and move him], and "solving" the giant loss of Grace by maxing out the reps of slow people rather than trying speed [now sadly it's too late for Councell too].

This whole season for me has been a defensive fiasco. Thank God for Kelly's offense and Tommy.

I don't necessarily agree that Navy is the dirtiest team in college football, but I'm not a fan of cut blocking even if I had to use it myself back in the day to waylay larger linemen. It's a necessary evil for smaller teams that want to run the ball, otherwise they would probably have to adopt some form of Spread, pass first offense to try and stay competitive. I do find it a bit suspect that Navy committed no penalties in that game...because there was a late hit that followed the Farley one that was much more blatant and was never called.

I do agree with the premise that Diaco is Mr. Conservative and plays not to lose. The Navy game is a perfect example. While we were hurting big time with injuries, Diaco on more than one occasion this year has schemed to force opposing offenses to make mistakes, and at times they've executed flawlessly to thwart him. When Navy is executing well, they're better than just about any team in college football because they're disciplined and trust each other, and as a result we struggled to get stops. Michigan executed very well offensively in their night game. We focused on taking away the run mostly and forced Gardner to pass the ball which ended up being very bad for us. I remember Kelly mentioning after the Temple game I think that he was content being hands off until later in the game when he asked Bobby to dial up some pressure to stymie Temple's QB. For the first half Temple was executing pretty well, we weren't really generating a lot of stops. The list goes on. I thought we turned a corner defensively after the ASU/USC games, but we seem to have fallen back into our old ways against Navy.

 

[Redbar]

I have two unpopular things to offer:

A). I have no romanticism about the service academies; Navy is the dirtiest team in college football and I have no admiration about their ball at all;

B). In order to obliterate Navy, you must have a fast defense which is also powerful up the middle. Notre Dame has rarely been fast, so Navy can possess the ball a lot; thus close games. Last year we played fast, and we played Big Lou football in the Meathouse; therefore a romp.

.... and to go on to utter unpopularity: Diaco arrays his defense not to lose. He is Mr. Conservative, and relies on offensive errors to stop opponent drives [this includes penalties]. If teams have precision drives, they will score or at a minimum eat the clock. In my heretical opinion, Bobby D needs to grow a pair and give his DLinemen the green light to do more penetrating. Then he needs to get his speed on the field especially against "system" teams like USN --- even replacing more thuggish outside linebackers with converted safeties if necessary --- teams are doing this all over the country.

This extra speed does two things: it occasionally makes a big play for a loss or a turnover; and when one guy makes an error, three other speed guys get there anyway. I know we have injuries, but Bobby D was misusing Lou anyway [getting him off the center's head so it was easy to double and move him], and "solving" the giant loss of Grace by maxing out the reps of slow people rather than trying speed [now sadly it's too late for Councell too].

This whole season for me has been a defensive fiasco. Thank God for Kelly's offense and Tommy.

I agree that Coach Diaco tends to play things conservatively, now I will say an unpopular thing, I think that is basically the right mindset for a defensive coordinator. Against most teams you will not be able to stop every possibility they can throw at you. So keeping things in front of you and not giving up big plays is smart. Force them to play flawless football every possession to get down the field on you. Once you get on a short field or in the red zone, it gets a lot easier to defend the field. Most teams will not beat us kicking field goals all day. Conceptually bend but don't break is smart for a defensive coach. I think defensive coaches tend to focus more on bottom line stats, execution and winning where at times offensive coaches get more caught up in other statistics and scheme. I am speaking generally, but I find a defensive minded coach will try to out execute you where offensive coaches may try to outsmart you. Personally, I have more faith in the defensive mindset, "lets just win this one and look great next game."

 

[arndtjc]

Okay, so I've been busy since I got home from this game, so here are my thoughts, and highlights of my game day experience...

We left Chicago about 8 AM, rolling into SB about 10:30. The first stop, for the first time being 21 at ND, a liquor store of course. A twenty four pack and a pint of fireball, a bag of ice, and a couple plastic sacks for a redneck cooler, and we head towards campus where I got to show my buddy around on his first time to ND.

We killed the 24 pack and pint of fireball, and headed into gate E. We proceeded to our seats in the corner, six rows behind the student section. It gets more and more amazing every time you step in that building. The blue angel flyover got my blood flowing, and I was PUMPED (and a little drunk).

The game was what a typical ND vs. Navy game when Navy isn't terrible. Reading through the posts from when the game was going on were embarrassing. The majority of these posters were counting this team out, and once again ND pulls out a close one. If this was a Weis coached team, ND loses this game, no doubt about it. I was nervous the whole time, and was amazed by the beauty of the triple option being executed PERFECTLY, but extremely frustrated watching the 2 star Navy offense gash the 4 and 5 star ND defense. If you can bring up a more perfectly played game than what Navy did last Saturday, I sure would like to see it.

The call on Farley was just terrible, and was dumbfounded they didn't pick up the flag. Had he not hit him, he goes for 25+.

Tarean Folston and Jaylon Smith are going to be Notre Dame legends, along with the man himself, Brian Kelly, who has led ND to ten straight wins in games decided by a touchdown or less tying him with this other former ND coach who had a decent career, with the name of Knute Rockne.

There isn't anything quite like game day at Notre Dame, and I can't wait til I can afford to be at every home game!

 

[Old Man Mike]

Redbar: I always like your posts, and you're one of a handful.

I agree with your sentiments. But the bottom line for me is: is it working for the benefit of the team we have? In my opinion, last year, because of personnel not enabled for this year [Te'o, KLM, Motta, Spond, an injured Day, a nicked Tuitt, a recently nicked Nix, Springmann ....] we could play mighty-in-the-middle and speed &/or instinct running the lanes, and not only thrash the "Navy's" of the world, but get the ball back "early" once in a while.

This year we're not obviously doing any of that. Our entire linebacking play [since Grace went down] is occasionally flashy but generally odoriferous. So is our safety play. It is obvious that we need significant change and it is my poor opinion that those changes should, sooner or later, emphasize speed and aggression.

I understand the Fear Factor of the Bomb, but the best teams don't seem to be trembling in their cleats about it. Defense is a statistical game, admitting that an opposing play will work now and then, but angling for a run of three successful defensive plays [not just offensive errors] in a sequence to stop drives. Great teams in other words MAKE PLAYS, they don't just wait for opponents' to screw them up. {Think about the Alabama game for a moment. Against Saban you could wait all year for that team to mess its OWN plays up three times in a row}. { and think of Prince Shembo: here's a playmaker who, with the exception of one game, makes no plays this year --- never has a potential All-American become so anonymous.}

I'll agree we can disagree about philosophy. I am pretty sure that the one we're using is playing a very dangerous game. Our strength has turned out to be Coach's offense, and this current philosophy takes the ball out of Kelly's hands WAY too much.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It's a necessary evil for smaller teams that want to run the ball...

It's not a "necessary evil" if there are plausible alternatives that don't result in a rash of knee and ankle injuries for their opponents.

[O]therwise they would probably have to adopt some form of Spread, pass first offense to try and stay competitive.

What's wrong with that? The academies would be a lot more fun to watch if they ran a wide open spread.

When Navy is executing well, they're better than just about any team in college football because they're disciplined and trust each other, and as a result we struggled to get stops.

Don't really agree with that. Navy's scheme gives them a puncher's chance against more talented programs that play sloppy or aren't sufficiently prepared to stop their scheme. But if their opponent is prepared, or the superior talent comes out and just physically mauls the Middies, they're sunk.

I agree that Coach Diaco tends to play things conservatively, now I will say an unpopular thing, I think that is basically the right mindset for a defensive coordinator. Against most teams you will not be able to stop every possibility they can throw at you. So keeping things in front of you and not giving up big plays is smart. Force them to play flawless football every possession to get down the field on you.

That's generally true for underdogs, but not for teams that field the kind of defensive talent ND has. If the scheme is ultra conservative, you don't get stops until your opponent makes a mistake. When they don't make mistakes (see: UM, OU, Navy), you're in trouble. Going to a simpler, more aggressive defense in the future will allow us to take advantage of our superior athleticism against most of the teams on our schedule.

 

[NDBoiler]

It's not a "necessary evil" if there are plausible alternatives that don't result in rash of knee and ankle injuries for the opponent.



What's wrong with that? The academies would be a lot more fun to watch if they ran a wide open spread.



Don't really agree with that. Navy's scheme gives them a puncher's chance against more talented programs that play sloppy or aren't sufficiently prepared to stop their scheme. But if their opponent is prepared, or their superior talent comes out and just physically mauls the Middies, they're sunk.



That's generally true for underdogs, but not for teams that field the kind of defensive talent ND has. If the scheme is ultra conservative, you don't get stops until your opponent makes a mistake. When they don't make mistakes (see: UM, OU, Navy), you're in trouble. Going to a simpler, more aggressive defense in the future will allow us to take advantage of our superior athleticism against most of the teams on our schedule.

Well played sir, well played.

 

[irishog77]

I think Redbar brings up a valid point about defense and defensive calls. But like Whiskey said, if you're the superior team and/or posses the superior players, then you need to dictate terms to the offense.

And I think what OMM was kind of getting at is that the style of play Diaco seems to be employing is playing not to lose, as opposed to playing to win. Seeing Jeff Fisher roam the sideline for years for the Titans was like kissing your sister. Sure, he's a decent coach and can usually win more games than he loses, but he has always called and employed a conservative, play-not-to-lose scheme. That's great for eking out wins here and there, but to win a championship, a team has to find ways to win when turnovers, bad officiating, fluke plays, injuries, weather, etc, (in other words, "adversity") rear their ugly head. Playing not to lose usually means a reliance on a strict adherence to the game plan and near-perfect conditions. Unleashing the beast, so to speak, is sometimes necessary to pull out wins when things aren't going your way. Is Diaco able or willing to do that? I think he may...but so far his history says no.

 

[ulukinatme]

Don't really agree with that. Navy's scheme gives them a puncher's chance against more talented programs that play sloppy or aren't sufficiently prepared to stop their scheme. But if their opponent is prepared, or the superior talent comes out and just physically mauls the Middies, they're sunk.

I guess I shouldn't say that Navy is better than any team in college football when they're executing well. I mean, they're probably not going to beat 'Bama or Oregon on a good day, but they're still tough. Time and time again they give good teams a run for their money, I guess thats what I'm getting at. It all goes back to their discipline, which is usually second to none, and they trust each other. That fact that they run the Triple Option means that the other team has to also be disciplined and play assignment football. On the plus side, if you get up early you can force the team out of the comfort zone, but that wasn't possible for us last Saturday.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I agree that Coach Diaco tends to play things conservatively, now I will say an unpopular thing, I think that is basically the right mindset for a defensive coordinator. Against most teams you will not be able to stop every possibility they can throw at you. So keeping things in front of you and not giving up big plays is smart. Force them to play flawless football every possession to get down the field on you. Once you get on a short field or in the red zone, it gets a lot easier to defend the field. Most teams will not beat us kicking field goals all day. Conceptually bend but don't break is smart for a defensive coach. I think defensive coaches tend to focus more on bottom line stats, execution and winning where at times offensive coaches get more caught up in other statistics and scheme. I am speaking generally, but I find a defensive minded coach will try to out execute you where offensive coaches may try to outsmart you. Personally, I have more faith in the defensive mindset, "lets just win this one and look great next game."

Yo my boy-o, too, Red; but here is the rub ; Navy, and the elite teams will play flawlessly. And then when they are in the Red zone, they will take that grass and shove it . . .

After careful analysis of the defensive game against Navy, check out Sean Mele's defensive chalk talk at ISD, or anyone of a number of other such presentation. The ND defense wasn't consistent with any aspect, from player position, throughout the day. Except when the defensive line stood to handle the option, and then Navy audibled into a gap blocking scheme, and drove us about ten yards off of the ball. SOME OFFENSES REQUIRE AGRESSIVE DEFENSIVE SOLUTIONS. Bend but don't break is great against everything else.

At the top level of college football bend but don't break will never work.

Bend but don't break against certain offenses results in terrible leg injuries. Especially when players act like they don't expect chop blocks.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Yeh, Bogs just reminded me of something. When our DLine moved one way or the other to "confuse" USN {Har Har}, Navy immediately shifted the call to run their option to the weakness. I was "predicting" their play pre-snap all night --- as any observant monkey could. THAT'S BAD COACHING!! I couldn't believe it. Can Bobby D NOT figure it out that his guys need to phony-shift and counterpunch the opponent re-call, slant it opposite at the last moment, what-the-he!l!!!

Drove me nuts......he has no sense of timing nor dramatics at all.

 

[Redbar]

Guys, as the son of an old Defensive Coordinator this subject is near and dear to my heart. I certainly understand people's frustration with Coach Diaco's playcalling and I am certainly not saying he is doing everything exactly right. What I am saying is I believe in the "bend but don't break" approach to defense. I will try to expand a little on my first post, and hopefully Bogs and OMM will not think me just totally enamored by Coach's perfectly coiffed locks.
Defense is by it's nature aggressive and should always be played that way, however, no matter the physical advantage a team might have, their is inherently a schematic advantage to the offense because they are running the play and because eleven men on eleven men are not enough to account for everything the offense can do in all parts of the field. I think playing tough defensive football and also maintaining gap responsibility and keeping everything in front of you will afford you plenty of opportunities to get off the field in a hurry especially when you have a physical advantage and especially when you can count on most teams to not execute perfectly, be it penalty, turnover, or missed kick. Once you get in the red zone, the field becomes easier to defend and then the defensive coordinator can become more aggressive and should change the script somewhat. This formula worked extremely well for us last year. Now I totally understand OMM's opinion that this team is missing some of the components that made last years defense successful, and this team should maybe try a speed approach rather than the power approach we had when we had Manti in the middle. I am not arguing that there shouldn't be adjustments made, I am not arguing that defenses shouldn't be disruptive, get sacks, flip field position, force turnovers, and all the other sexy stuff defenses can do. What I am saying is all of that stuff is lagniappe, the defense's primary responsibility is to keep the other team from scoring. When measured with the right amount of risk/reward, "bend but don't break" is a good way to keep the scoring down although it may not hit all those other markers I listed that we all love when our defense can hit them. After saying all of this I will concede that I think coach Diaco is slow with his adjustments at times and is not smooth in transitioning between when to throttle up and down and consequently hasn't been effective at keeping the scoring down. However, I don't take issue with the principle, more with the application of it.

P.S. I will also concede to the Bog R. Trotter that there are some teams and times that this will not work well. If you are facing the equivalent of a Peyton Manning, or a behemoth like Alabama (Navy??), you cannot allow them to find rhythm or wait for a mistake, you may have to gamble a bit more than normal.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Yeh, Bogs just reminded me of something. When our DLine moved one way or the other to "confuse" USN {Har Har}, Navy immediately shifted the call to run their option to the weakness. I was "predicting" their play pre-snap all night --- as any observant monkey could. THAT'S BAD COACHING!! I couldn't believe it. Can Bobby D NOT figure it out that his guys need to phony-shift and counterpunch the opponent re-call, slant it opposite at the last moment, what-the-he!l!!!

Drove me nuts......he has no sense of timing nor dramatics at all.

Mike, a chara,

They weren't just running the option to the weakness.

Navy was:

Changing the blocking scheme to gap, or straight ahead punch 'em in the mouth blocking, designed to drive the defender back. This is significant because with an option blocking scheme they block at angles, leaving the option key unblocked, creating advantages for every other blocking assignment. The thrust is not forward but down the line, away from the hole. Saturday, as soon as the defenders stood up, (a really smart defensive move, right?) the Navy offense shifted to a scheme where they blocked straight ahead as hard as they could. This is a big part of why we sustained so many injuries. Play football and tell me that when a guy with all the momentum collides with a guy with little or none, the guy with the lesser momentum doesn't sustain the injury!

As far as the play it wasn't an option, it was a predetermined run. That hits much faster because there is no read. This also hurts a defense back on its heels more.

Third, where the play was going was to the bubble. A bubble is the spot between down linemen where a linebacker is found, like this:

...........^

......N.........E........

G....C....G....T...........

I know that we didn't run a standard three man front but a few times but there were places where a linebacker had a gap and there was no down lineman. Added to them picking the soft spot on a predetermined run, with an almost guaranteed win over the defensive lineman, our inside linebackers often shot the B gap on the other side, where the true triple option may have gone, had it been run?!?

But at any rate, our inside linebackers often took themselves out of the play, especially Carlo, who shot a gap away from the fullback over 50% of the time. (At least knock the fullback's head off on every play!) This is exactly what happened on that touchdown in, (I believe the north end zone), where they had a first and ten at the eleven and took it in on one play. The one where it looked like Navy could have walked in. Looked like all the players fault, but it wasn't!

It was an abhorrent scheme, based upon an inadequate understanding of option football at Navy.

Beir bua agus beannacht,

Bogs