[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[connor_in]

I don't think that it mattered to who won, but I have a bit of physics in my background too and was wondering what you and your physics friends thought of the fact that physics only seemed to effect 11 of the 12 Pats balls

 

[tko]

SIAP

Brad Johnson paid $7500 to have footballs altered in Super Bowl XXXVII - SBNation.com

 

[gkIrish]

That's kind of my point. Tom Brady has played in 28 playoff games and however many November/December regular season games and this has never come up before. Why did he need some magical advantage on January 18, 2015 that he's never needed in the past, especially considering that it was relatively mild that night?

Was it relatively mild or was it so cold that the balls deflated due to the outside temperature? Pick one. The Patriots saved a Julian Edelman pass for 3 years to use against the Ravens. They use a bullshit (although legal) loophole against the Ravens too. Tom Brady had played 20 or so playoff games before Spygate, too. Why did they need the advantage then? To me all that just shows they don't think they can beat teams between the sidelines.

 

[pkt77242]

Yeah except

1. There's no evidence the Colts' balls were similarly deflated.
2. This is magically the first time anyone has ever noticed the balls deflated despite there being hundreds, if not thousands of games being played under similar temperatures?
3. One of the balls magically defied the laws of physics?
4. It's not like the balls are 40 degrees. They are constantly wiped down and kept in a bag with the other balls. Which means they are almost certainly a lot warmer than the outside temperature.

Just to be fair there isn't any evidence that weren't deflated either. The Colts balls never got tested from what I have read.

 

[gkIrish]

I never claimed to be directly quoting him. Why else would the referees deflate Packer footballs (and Rodgers be pissed about it) other than the Packers intentionally inflate the balls above the allowable range?

If the Packers inflate the balls to the max before inspection and the referees fail to do anything about it, that's not on the Packers. And I don't believe that's what Rodgers is even saying they do.

 

[gkIrish]

Just to be fair there isn't any evidence that weren't deflated either. The Colts balls never got tested from what I have read.

Link?

Even if they didn't, if the Patriot apologist's best argument is that we don't know anything about the Colts' balls then that' says a lot.

 

[pkt77242]

Link?

Even if they didn't, if the Patriot apologist's best argument is that we don't know anything about the Colts' balls then that' says a lot.

Where is your link saying they tested the Colts balls? You are the one who made the original statement of why didn't the Colts balls change as well.

I have read about 10 articles on it so far and none have mentioned the Colts balls. Don't you think that that would be a central part of the argument. Hey look the Colts balls didn't change PSI but the Patriots balls did.

Oddly I am not a Patriots apologist (I was actually rooting for the Colts) but I think that there should be proof of cheating for punishment and just under-inflated balls (especially if they didn't test the Colts balls) is not proof, just suspicious.

 

[gkIrish]

Where is your link saying they tested the Colts balls? You are the one who made the original statement of why didn't the Colts balls change as well.

I have read about 10 articles on it so far and none have mentioned the Colts balls. Don't you think that that would be a central part of the argument. Hey look the Colts balls didn't change PSI but the Patriots balls did.

Oddly I am not a Patriots apologist (I was actually rooting for the Colts) but I think that there should be proof of cheating for punishment and just under-inflated balls (especially if they didn't test the Colts balls) is not proof, just suspicious.

The logical assumption is that the NFL tested all the balls. I'm going to believe they did until I see otherwise. And like I said, it doesn't matter that they weren't tested. If it was a weather issue this wouldn't be the first time this has ever come up, especially considering there have been much colder games.

 

[pkt77242]

The logical assumption is that the NFL tested all the balls. I'm going to believe they did until I see otherwise. And like I said, it doesn't matter that they weren't tested. If it was a weather issue this wouldn't be the first time this has ever come up, especially considering there have been much colder games.

According to a National Football League letter about the investigation into the controversy that was shared with the Globe, the Patriots were informed that the league’s initial findings indicated that the game balls did not meet specifications. The league inspected each of the Patriots’ 12 game balls twice at halftime, using different pressure gauges, and found footballs that were not properly inflated.

Again no mention of the Colts balls being tested. That should be a central part of the argument.

NFL says Patriots used 11 under-inflated footballs - Sports - The Boston Globe

 

[IrishLion]

It's amazing that people still try to defend all of the shady things the Patriots get involved in.

What's that old saying? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[connor_in]

Again no mention of the Colts balls being tested. That should be a central part of the argument.

NFL says Patriots used 11 under-inflated footballs - Sports - The Boston Globe

Quick question...if it isn't their main argument, what does it say about the Pats? and the 11/12 thing doesn't seem weird to you?

 

[Irish Insanity]

Also wondering with all the games played, some in colder weather this is the first incident of any kind. I mean if the weather caused it how has it not been brought up where the weather was colder and the fluctuation would have been greater.

 

[bkess8]

I wonder if they had this problem during the ice bowl?

Game-time temperature at Lambeau Field was about −15 °F with an average wind chill around −48 °F.

The balls had to be flat then right?

 

[NDWorld247]

It's amazing that people still try to defend all of the shady things the Patriots get involved in.

What's that old saying? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Do tell of "all of the shady things the Patriots get involved in" besides Spygate.

Quick question...if it isn't their main argument, what does it say about the Pats? and the 11/12 thing doesn't seem weird to you?

Very weird. A Belichick trained ball boy wouldn't make a mistake like this. The kid had one job and that was to deflate 12 footballs, not 11. DO YOUR JOB ball boy!

 

[Irish Insanity]

Also reports the Ravens complained the week prior of improper inflated kicking balls and that it had affected their kicking.

 

[pkt77242]

Also reports the Ravens complained the week prior of improper inflated kicking balls and that it had affected their kicking.

That doesn't make sense though, as both teams use the same balls for kicking so it would hamper the Patriots just as much as the Ravens. Here is a good article on it.

Report: Ravens had concerns about kicking balls at New England | ProFootballTalk

 

[connor_in]

Do tell of "all of the shady things the Patriots get involved in" besides Spygate.



Very weird. A Belichick trained ball boy wouldn't make a mistake like this. The kid had one job and that was to deflate 12 footballs, not 11. DO YOUR JOB ball boy!

Not weird if #12 is the kicking footbal, yes?

My wife made a comment to me when they delayed the game for a minute or so and then the announcers said something to the effect that they forgot to change out the kicking ball for the scrimmage ball and my wife said, they have different ones? Then the announcer said the kicking balls aren't rubbed up as much as the scrimmage ones

 

[NDWorld247]

Also reports the Ravens complained the week prior of improper inflated kicking balls and that it had affected their kicking.

Right, except the teams don't handle the kicking balls.

There also is a second set of six footballs, used specifically for the kicking game, that are marked appropriately and remain in the possession of officials at all times

Next we are going to hear Belichick paid the officials to deflate kicking balls for the Ravens. How deep does this scandal go? I'll be tuned into TMZ tonight that's for sure.

 

[NDWorld247]

Not weird if #12 is the kicking footbal, yes?

My wife made a comment to me when they delayed the game for a minute or so and then the announcers said something to the effect that they forgot to change out the kicking ball for the scrimmage ball and my wife said, they have different ones? Then the announcer said the kicking balls aren't rubbed up as much as the scrimmage ones

See post above. Kicking balls are different than the 12 balls each team uses on offense.

And, IIRC, the delay in game to switch out balls happened after a kickoff. Perfectly reasonable explanation for why they held the game up. The refs were doing their job!

 

[SoDakDomer]

How should any punishment on this compare to Bountygate?

I think it should be right on par. Bountygate was an issue of player safety, but didn't effect the actual competition of the game in a way that gave anyone an advantage.
Inflategate was obviously an attempt at a true competitive advantage. I think the punishments from Bountygate could be imposed here, and that would seem about fair.

Tell that to viking fans and brett farve's ankle.

 

[wizards8507]

Was it relatively mild or was it so cold that the balls deflated due to the outside temperature? Pick one.

Do I seriously need to illustrate this nuance to you? It was "mild" for January in Massachusetts, as in "Brady has played in much worse." That has nothing to do with whether it was cold enough to deflate the balls. A "mild" August day in Orlando is still going to make you sweat your ass off.

Again, why is everyone flat-out ignoring SCIENTIFIC FACT? A drop from 70F to 40F results in a drop of 2 PSI. P1/P2 = T1/T2 and all that crap.

 

[NDWorld247]

This is awesome!

 

[NDWorld247]

Do I seriously need to illustrate this nuance to you? It was "mild" for January in Massachusetts, as in "Brady has played in much worse." That has nothing to do with whether it was cold enough to deflate the balls. A "mild" August day in Orlando is still going to make you sweat your ass off.

Again, why is everyone flat-out ignoring SCIENTIFIC FACT? A drop from 70F to 40F results in a drop of 2 PSI. P1/P2 = T1/T2 and all that crap.

I heard on 98.5 (Boston sports radio station) this morning that it was 52 degrees at kickoff and 40 degrees by the end of the game. The balls were checked and properly inflated at halftime (temp unknown, but based on the conditions probably closer to 40 than 52). Just throwing some facts into the discussion.

 

[Irish Fam]

That's kind of my point. Tom Brady has played in 28 playoff games and however many November/December regular season games and this has never come up before. Why did he need some magical advantage on January 18, 2015 that he's never needed in the past, especially considering that it was relatively mild that night?

I think that the bolded part really shows that you are missing the entire problem here.

EDIT: I removed the rest of your post... it made for too long of a post.

First of all, he is saying that there have been thousands of footballs used in very similar conditions to Sunday night and nobody has complained about poorly inflated balls. If, as you have stated, balls casually deflate over the course of a game during cold weather, why has this not come up in the past?

And the problem isn't that Brady needed or didn't need the advantage of a deflated ball. It is that there are rules in place to level the playing field and the Patriots possibly purposely ignored those rules - they cheated.

 

[connor_in]

See post above. Kicking balls are different than the 12 balls each team uses on offense.

And, IIRC, the delay in game to switch out balls happened after a kickoff. Perfectly reasonable explanation for why they held the game up. The refs were doing their job!

yes it was right after a kickoff, but I was unaware there were special kicking balls and scrimmage balls


and wiz...ahhh...never mind, smh

 

[NDWorld247]

And the problem isn't that Brady needed or didn't need the advantage of a deflated ball. It is that there are rules in place to level the playing field and IF the Patriots possibly purposely ignored those rules - they cheated.

FIFY

 

[Irish#1]

Interesting story from Bob Kravitz. Several NE fans commented at the bottom and believe BB should be gone.

Kravitz: Pats, NFL need to come down hard on Belichick for Defla - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

So the Pats get caught for SpyGate and now are under investigation for this. I would find it hard to believe that the Pats only cheated twice and got caught both times. The bottom line is 11 of 12 balls were 2lbs. under and it wasn't the weather that effected them, otherwise all 12 would be.

Wiz, I'm a Colts fan and the Pats would have beat the Colts if the balls were at 5lb or 15lb. That's not the issue. The integrity of the game is (read article) the issue. BB got caught with his hand in the cookie jar again. You won't have to worry about this being an issue for the SB because the NFL will be checking those balls very carefully and it wouldn't surprise me if they do during the course of the game.

 

[wizards8507]

First of all, he is saying that there have been thousands of footballs used in very similar conditions to Sunday night and nobody has complained about poorly inflated balls. If, as you have stated, balls casually deflate over the course of a game during cold weather, why has this not come up in the past?

A couple of possible reasons:

1. The Colts are butthurt whiny bitches who didn't like getting their asses handed to them. Just because no one has complained about weather deflating balls before doesn't mean that weather has never deflated a ball.

2. Teams are allowed to reinflate the balls over the course of the game. Example: if a QB likes his ball at 13.0 PSI and it deflates to 12.2 as the game progresses, they can add air to bring it back to 13.0. If Brady likes a softer ball, they'd just let the decline in pressure happen naturally and not pump it back up. They're under no obligation to continually check the ball over the course of play.

3. Amontons' Law of Pressure-Temperature is REAL. Again, why oh why do people keep ignoring this scientifically factual component of this whole thing?

And the problem isn't that Brady needed or didn't need the advantage of a deflated ball. It is that there are rules in place to level the playing field and the Patriots possibly purposely ignored those rules - they cheated.

I'm not saying "Brady did it but who cares because he doesn't need an advantage." I'm saying, Brady has whooped on people in much worse and DIDN'T cheat, so why would he risk it this time.

 

[irishfan]

So multiple kickers have come out saying that the balls get deflated in the cold. That seems to be verified via science. If kickers know this, you can bet your ass that Belichick knows this.

The Patriots balls were measured 2:15 prior to kickoff in what I'm assuming was roughly 70 degree temperature indoors. They were re-measured at halftime, roughly 4 hours later.

I am curious what happens to those balls during the 2:15 prior to kickoff. I know the Pats ballboy had them. Are they supposed to stay indoors? Can they go outdoors prior to warmups? If they can go outside, is it scientifcally possible that they balls deflated by 2 PSI in the 4 hours that they were outside?

The strangest part about the story is the fact that none of the refs picked up on it despite touching the ball every single play.

In defense of the Pats, there are 3 explanations:
--a) the refs didn't properly check pre-game
--b) this isn't a heavily enforced issue, so refs didn't care/notice a deflated ball (lot of stories on this)
--c) the balls were pumped to 12.5 and naturally delfated 2 PSI in the cold

Maybe none seem very likely, but I don't think any are far-fetched either. It is also equally likely that BB ordered the balls to be deflated prior to kickoff. Who knows? I'm looking forward to the report.

 

[wizards8507]

*snip*

Agree and just to add: it is not "maybe" the case that pressure falls with the temperature. It is factually true that that is what happens.