ND Offers White Privilege Course

[Rhode Irish]

do I need to read thru this threadd?
what's the gist of this thing?
reps to the one who summarizes all this in one post, fewest words wins

White people offended that ND would teach a class about white privilege, which they don't believe exists because they had a relative once that was poor and worked their way to the top. Plus there is a black president and supreme court justice. Some of us disagree.

 

[GoldenDome]

White people offended that ND would teach a class about white privilege, which they don't believe exists because they had a relative once that was poor and worked their way to the top. Plus there is a black president and supreme court justice. Some of us disagree.

Wait, people actually don't believe this exists? Wow.

 

[Redbar]

Rhode Irish should win the internet for his contributions in this thread alone. Heavyweight y'all.

 

[kmoose]

White people offended that ND would teach a class about white privilege, which they don't believe exists because they had a relative once that was poor and worked their way to the top. Plus there is a black president and supreme court justice. Some of us disagree.

Racist!

Not all white people are offended that ND would teach a class about white privilege. In fact:

If it helps people more critically examine their own beliefs and/or preconceptions, then is it really a bad thing?

 

[Fbolt]

I don't need a class to understand injustices, just an open mind.

 

[GoldenDome]

Why was there media coverage for Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, and Eric Garner but not any white people who die in semi-controversial ways? Where is the media coverage for black on black homicide? You find one assault, which didn't garner that much media attention (certainly a drop in the bucket compared to Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, and Eric Garner) and now it means that only white deaths are newsworthy? Dude white people die every single day. White people have died under far shadier circumstances than Brown or Garner but where is the national media outrage? Where are the protests?

Where was the national media outrage when Officer Henwood was murdered in cold blood and then his memorial was desecrated by "protesters"?
https://imgur.com/gallery/5sFZG

Where are the "calls for justice" for Zemir Begic? The man who was brutally murdered by "protesters" in Ferguson?

Where is the motherf**king outrage over this:


Man killed in Arrowhead Stadium parking lot during Broncos-Chiefs game - Audibles - SI.com

I'm not going to hold my breath for any burned down buildings or "die-ins" over that man's untimely demise. What was his name huh? Since his death was clearly worthy of national outrage since he was white and all. He got one little news story and that's it.

Maybe if Whites banded together and demonstrated in the streets like other groups then perhaps it would get coverage. Why don't Whites show support for their own people as much as other groups? The whole point of protesting is to get media coverage and express your concern.

 

[IrishLax]

Here goes...

White Privilege Part 1: What is White Privilege, Why Does it Exist, and Why Does it Matter

White Privilege has already been rather accurately defined by Rhode Irish, BeauBenken, and others. The important thing to understand is that the concept of White Privilege has nothing to do conscious racism. It’s simply a social psychology principle at heart that societal norms and ideals reflect the value of the dominant group.

In the United States, the dominant group is “white people.” Hence, “white privilege.” It’s exists because it must exist, because humans are incapable of true objectivity. There is no such thing as “fair.” There is no such thing as “impartial.” It is proven that people, in general, are naturally inclined towards people that are similar, and against people that are dissimilar. So subconsciously people have inherent, ingrained biases that add up to a society that reflects the values of majority.

Why does this matter? Some would argue it really doesn’t, because it’s extremely difficult to effectively legislate against (unlike overt, conscious racism or discrimination). Others would argue that an ignorance of the principles of White Privilege means the system is more stacked against minorities than if everyone had a full appreciation of how biases currently affect them, and the only way to level the playing field as best as possible is to confront societal privileges head-on. There are many, many examples already discussed in this thread (e.g. see the entire judicial system) of how these biases manifest themselves. But it’s important to understand that getting pulled over by the cops for Driving While Black is not White Privilege… that’s just racism. White Privilege is when Bob Smith applies for a job with similar qualifications to Laquonda Johnson and the old white guy reviewing her application amongst dozens subconsciously doesn’t pay as close attention and give her a fair shake.

 

[IrishLax]

White Privilege Part 2: Why The Term White Privilege is Clumsy, Simplistic, and Generally Misunderstood

So if you accept the truth that there are societal biases that benefit the dominant majority, the question becomes why is it that there are such stark contrast between how these “privileges” affect the different minorities in this country?

Asians, by all statistics and measures, tend to outperform white people in the United States. Less incarceration, more affluence, more success, better education, etc. Hispanics/Latinos are the worst in terms of earnings, and blacks are substantially better off than them. Why do you never see Asians complaining about the scourge of White Privilege? Why have you seen dozens of heavily publicized national news stories of cops mistreating blacks but not Hispanics/Latinos?

The answer is that these biases are not an insurmountable roadblock, they are merely a hurdle. This country is designed such that anyone can overcome their start in life with intelligence and hard work… “white privilege” just makes it harder for those born in certain situations. Asians are categorized by some as a “model minority” … which does not mean that other minorities should “model” themselves after them, but is rather a term used in this kind of social science discussion for a minority group whose values align or “exceed” what the dominant majority considers the “model” (in this case, think WASP + educated + affluent + respectful + hard working + Euro-centric definitions of “beauty”).

All of this is a roundabout way of saying that the catchall term “white privilege” is bogus on some levels because it fails to be nuanced. It would better be defined similar to what I just said above… but “white-anglo-saxon-protestant-educated-clean-cut-etc.-etc.-privilege” is a lot harder to say than “white privilege.” White people who are considered “white trash” (i.e. have a “white trash” name, appearance, way of speech, etc.) face extremely similar hurdles to other minorities when it comes to the most commonly cited tangible effects of White Privilege (i.e. sentencing, etc.). An intelligent, clean cut Latino man with a name like “John” that wears expensive suits and talks without an accent has only few “privileges” that he doesn’t share with your average white person. This is not to say that he can’t still be the subject of racism, but that’s different than privilege.

 

[IrishLax]

White Privilege Part 3: Why White Privilege is Erroneously Used as a Crutch by People with a Victim Mentality

When people try to use “White Privilege” as a crutch for why their lot in life sucks, it’s generally because they don’t understand the term. White Privilege can make it harder for you to get a house, get a job, or get a fair shake in the legal system. These are all rather indisputable facts. But if Asians can drastically outperform whites then what stops any other minority from becoming a “model minority”? You really can’t say the system, because that same system applies to everyone. The truth is it simply boils down to actions. Latinos/Hispanics often don’t speak English, and their children learn English as a second language. A very high percentage of them are unskilled or uneducated workers when they come to the United States. Blacks have a much higher percentage of single parent homes, read to their children less, etc. These are much larger hurdles than the fact that if you’re selling crack you go away for longer than if you were selling cocaine… seriously, if you’re selling drugs in general, you’re already losing.

I can give an anecdote about how members of my Latino immigrant family literally scrubbed toilets before my dad was afforded the opportunity to go to college on account of his brain power (#GOIRISH), but anecdotes are rather worthless in discussions like this. There are plenty of other people who can give similar anecdotes, and there are MANY other people who can talk about a time when White Privilege set them back.

Suffice to say that in this country you have the freedom to make whatever out of your life that you want. The only thing White Privilege does it potentially make that road more difficult, and the screw ups a more detrimental to the pursuit of your goals. But this is a truth of every society on this planet. The only way to avoid the effects of privilege is to be one of the privileged group. You can dislike that truth, but it’s the way this species works, and it’s never going to change.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Good job, Lax. I agree with 90% of that. There are maybe a couple nitpicks I could raise, but I don't want to detract from the fact that overall I think that is a pretty fair, and pretty thoughtful, take.

 

[phgreek]

There is really an extensive amount of literature and research behind this, and your ignorance* of it does not mean that "racial activists" "just assumed" it to be unwarranted. A good example is the difference in mandatory punishment for crack (a stereotypically "black" drug) vs. cocaine (a stereotypically "white" drug). Despite the fact that whites use schedule II drugs at a rate at least proportional to blacks, blacks end up in prison for longer periods of time and in much higher numbers.

Can you tell me where the impetus for legislation as pointed as this comes from? Does it come from cries from within communities to put a stop to it?...Maybe?

I'm not dismissing the white privilege discussion here...but I think this specific example did not come to be because white people thought crack was a black mans drug, or even worse than coke...I believe the communities where crack was prevalent, and its apparent impact drove urgency and thus the disparate punishment...

Which is not to say that drug use is ok, or that because drug penalties are unevenly applied, all blacks are doomed. But it does say something about the way our society is structured, which leads to your next point. Single parent households are a problem. But is that really surprising when 5% of your adult male population is incarcerated? There's a pretty serious feedback loop in effect, which makes it difficult to sort out the self inflicted damage with the damage inflicted by the underlying structure of the system.

I think liberals, in general, focus too much on the systemic harm while conservatives focus on the self-inflicted side. The reality is that if America is going to reach its true potential as a nation, both sides of the balance need correcting.

As a white male, I view it as my responsibility to focus on the systemic side of the equation. There are plenty of black advocates out there who are fighting to focus on education, family values, staying out of jail, etc... They don't need my voice telling them how to fix their problems. And I think that's what people like NoJusticeNoPeace found so disturbing about a lot of the comments being made by (white, males) on IE. There is something stunningly condescending about telling someone that their race should just go fix itself. On the other hand, systemic change is something we all have a stake in. We might not all agree on the best rules out there, but I think we can agree that our system should treat everybody equally, regardless of skin color. To the extent that it doesn't, that is a problem for all of us: white, black, yellow, brown, and everything in between.



*just to be clear, I am not calling you ignorant. I think you're a wonderful poster who adds a lot of value to IE and I'm mildly upset that you stopped doing your post-game recaps over the last few games of the season. I use the word "ignorance" here in a very narrow context- based on your comments, it appears to me that you have not read any of the academic studies on systemic racial inequality.

.

 

[phgreek]

White Privilege Part 3: Why White Privilege is Erroneously Used as a Crutch by People with a Victim Mentality

When people try to use “White Privilege” as a crutch for why their lot in life sucks, it’s generally because they don’t understand the term. White Privilege can make it harder for you to get a house, get a job, or get a fair shake in the legal system. These are all rather indisputable facts. But if Asians can drastically outperform whites then what stops any other minority from becoming a “model minority”? You really can’t say the system, because that same system applies to everyone. The truth is it simply boils down to actions. Latinos/Hispanics often don’t speak English, and their children learn English as a second language. A very high percentage of them are unskilled or uneducated workers when they come to the United States. Blacks have a much higher percentage of single parent homes, read to their children less, etc. These are much larger hurdles than the fact that if you’re selling crack you go away for longer than if you were selling cocaine… seriously, if you’re selling drugs in general, you’re already losing.

I can give an anecdote about how members of my Latino immigrant family literally scrubbed toilets before my dad was afforded the opportunity to go to college on account of his brain power (#GOIRISH), but anecdotes are rather worthless in discussions like this. There are plenty of other people who can give similar anecdotes, and there are MANY other people who can talk about a time when White Privilege set them back.

Suffice to say that in this country you have the freedom to make whatever out of your life that you want. The only thing White Privilege does it potentially make that road more difficult, and the screw ups a more detrimental to the pursuit of your goals. But this is a truth of every society on this planet. The only way to avoid the effects of privilege is to be one of the privileged group. You can dislike that truth, but it’s the way this species works, and it’s never going to change.

I'm good with your view. I think it makes perfect sense. So will you be leading the discussion at ND?

I'll wait and see how the reviews come out...but I have my doubts regarding how ND's version of this "discussion" will go...hope there is room for views this balanced...

 

[SaltyND24]

That's all warm and fuzzy. Christians everywhere teach caring for the poor and giving to the needy. If you disagree with someone about the root causes of poverty and/ or the solutions, that does not equal hate or not caring. It's a philosophical difference.

No one preaches more hate and racism on this board, still, than you.

I'll just say this. Some people who claim to be good Christians, don't practice what they preach and that is true across color lines. I don't understand why it is so bad for kids at an institution of higher learning to be exposed to a different way of thinking. Keep an open mind, hear people out, and then come to your own conclusion. Overall, my experience at ND was one where people, whom I was friends with, had very limited interactions with people of different races. It has a potential to open minds and spark serious discussions of the biases and prejudices that we all hold as humans. It can have the potential to be a very good thing if done the right way. I mean, when I was there (C/O 2010), there were still people that thought it was cool and acceptable to put chicken and watermelon in the BCAC mailbox. People need to wake up and realize that this is still a relevant issue that should be addressed.

 

[Redbar]

Good job, Lax. I agree with 90% of that. There are maybe a couple nitpicks I could raise, but I don't want to detract from the fact that overall I think that is a pretty fair, and pretty thoughtful, take.

This is where I am also, I think LAX makes a lot of excellent points. I will only add one nuance and that is that when looking at "minority", "immigrant", populations empirically, blacks are different than asians or latinos or any other demographic in one important way. Blacks had to graduate up to being poor. For the majority of the time blacks have been in this country they were property. That is a very different circumstance than being "poor". The system that had to be put in place to do that and rationalize it as OK, has presented unique hurdles for both the black family (generally) and the majority psyche (generally).

 

[Bubbles]

I'll just say this. Some people who claim to be good Christians, don't practice what they preach and that is true across color lines. I don't understand why it is so bad for kids at an institution of higher learning to be exposed to a different way of thinking. Keep an open mind, hear people out, and then come to your own conclusion. Overall, my experience at ND was one where people, whom I was friends with, had very limited interactions with people of different races. It has a potential to open minds and spark serious discussions of the biases and prejudices that we all hold as humans. It can have the potential to be a very good thing if done the right way. I mean, when I was there (C/O 2010), there were still people that thought it was cool and acceptable to put chicken and watermelon in the BCAC mailbox. People need to wake up and realize that this is still a relevant issue that should be addressed.

Wow....mine was the EXACT opposite.....I guess, like many experiences, you get out of it what you put in?

 

[IrishLax]

This is where I am also, I think LAX makes a lot of excellent points. I will only add one nuance and that is that when looking at "minority", "immigrant", populations empirically, blacks are different than asians or latinos or any other demographic in one important way. Blacks had to graduate up to being poor. For the majority of the time blacks have been in this country they were property. That is a very different circumstance than being "poor". The system that had to be put in place to do that and rationalize it as OK, has presented unique hurdles for both the black family (generally) and the majority psyche (generally).

Much of what I posted is really debatable. Social sciences are tough, and I'm not an expert at all. You want to talk about making buildings stand up, then I'm your guy lol... but I'm sure there is a lot in what I posted people could disagree with.

I think it's almost impossible to have a fruitful discussion on topics like this on the Internet, but we can try.

The problem with White Privilege is that, by definition, it's about the white people. It's an affirmative towards the dominant majority about their privileges. It's something that every white person enjoys and experiences automatically - a white person cannot elect to not have white privilege just because they don't like the inherent systematic advantages.

So then you can also look at disadvantages or additional privilege that certain sub-groups and minorities have, but that's independent of the privilege enjoyed by white people. For example, you can list the disadvantages and hurdles and racism that black people face in the south that are tied back to the eras of slavery and Jim Crow and the like... that's a completely different experience than what an Asian faces in San Francisco... but it's not necessarily related to White Privilege.

 

[wizards8507]

Blacks had to graduate up to being poor. For the majority of the time blacks have been in this country they were property. That is a very different circumstance than being "poor".

Maybe I'm missing your point, but it sounds like you're looking at people strictly in terms of racial identification while ignoring individual and temporal circumstances. A black man who was a slave in 1798 has nothing to do with a black man in 2014 who has never been the "property" of another as you put it. My Portuguese ancestors were probably fisherman in the 1790s and that has literally nothing to do with my personal situation in life at age 25 in the year 2014.

 

[Black Irish]

It seems that White Privilege is too broad of a term. Maybe "WASP Privilege" is better?

 

[Wild Bill]

White privilege conference. Looks fun.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/DJpvFnL6dOk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/OCRxkgq2CFU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/0tlltSlGItY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/zAG2NQ0X7qs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[GoIrish41]

Maybe I'm missing your point, but it sounds like you're looking at people strictly in terms of racial identification while ignoring individual and temporal circumstances. A black man who was a slave in 1798 has nothing to do with a black man in 2014 who has never been the "property" of another as you put it. My Portuguese ancestors were probably fisherman in the 1790s and that has literally nothing to do with my personal situation in life at age 25 in the year 2014.

.

 

[IrishLax]

It seems that White Privilege is too broad of a term. Maybe "WASP Privilege" is better?

It is. It's a clumsy catchall. There are certain privileges that everyone with light skin is going to enjoy, but when talking about things commonly associated with White Privilege you can't say that a Portugese immigrant with a "weird sounding" name who doesn't speak English, is transgender, atheist, has face tattoos and piercings, is uneducated, and is poor has the same privileges as your "average" WASP male.

White Privilege is often treated as binary: you either have it or you don't. I've never felt that is accurate, and there are many scholars who have a similar contention. In my opinion, there is a big pie of "privileges" that someone who fits the "model" enjoys in their entirety, and others enjoy to varying degrees depending on how closely they fit the "model."

But it's also worth appreciating that while my hypothetical person forfeits a lot of the privileges through a series of happenstance and choices... just by being born with a different skin color minorities automatically lose out on most if not all of those same privileges without any exceptional circumstances, and there is only so much they can physically do to "conform" and mitigate the effects of privilege.

It also begs the question of should minorities have to "conform" to the majority? I'd argue the answer is no, and it's a bit messed up that the only way to mitigate privilege is adopt principles inline with the dominant majority.

 

[woolybug25]

Interesting fact... In the book, "Rita Heyworth and The Shawshank Redemption", the character of Red was a middle aged Irishman.

When casting the role of Red for the movie rendition, "Shawshank Redemption", they initially wanted Harrison Ford to play the part, but decided they couldn't pass up Morgan Freeman. As Red's character would narrate the film, and Freeman's voice could not be passed up. Hence the joke in the film when Red is asked about why he is called "Red", and he answers, "maybe because i'm Irish". An obvious play on the character for those that read the book.

 

[IrishinSyria]

It is. It's a clumsy catchall. There are certain privileges that everyone with light skin is going to enjoy, but when talking about things commonly associated with White Privilege you can't say that a Portugese immigrant with a "weird sounding" name who doesn't speak English, is transgender, atheist, has face tattoos and piercings, is uneducated, and is poor has the same privileges as your "average" WASP male.

White Privilege is often treated as binary: you either have it or you don't. I've never felt that is accurate, and there are many scholars who have a similar contention. In my opinion, there is a big pie of "privileges" that someone who fits the "model" enjoys in their entirety, and others enjoy to varying degrees depending on how closely they fit the "model."

But it's also worth appreciating that while my hypothetical person forfeits a lot of the privileges through a series of happenstance and choices... just by being born with a different skin color minorities automatically lose out on most if not all of those same privileges without any exceptional circumstances, and there is only so much they can physically do to "conform" and mitigate the effects of privilege.

It also begs the question of should minorities have to "conform" to the majority? I'd argue the answer is no, and it's a bit messed up that the only way to mitigate privilege is adopt principles inline with the dominant majority.

really good post/series of posts

 

[ickythump1225]

Maybe if Whites banded together and demonstrated in the streets like other groups then perhaps it would get coverage. Why don't Whites show support for their own people as much as other groups? The whole point of protesting is to get media coverage and express your concern.

Way to move the goalposts buddy. Why didn't Mexicans organize and protest the death of "one of their own" when the guy who spurred this whole conversation between the two of us died? You've taken the onus of coverage from the media to private people now that I have shown examples that blow your little narrative up. Why don't you hold the same standard in each situation?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Bought Philly Soft Pretzels for the office today. A girl I work with and I had a funny exchange. She is black. I am white.

Her: Are pretzels bad for you?
Me: Nah, just wash it down with coffee.
Her: Oh OK, my Mom told me to stay away from anything white.
Me: Eyes pop out of head, jaw drops (jokingly)
Her: I meant food! I meant food! Like white bread!

We laughed, we hugged, and we both knew what she said came out the wrong way. I've known her for all of two months.

I am not reporting it to HR, I'm not going to call her racist, and I'm not going to take it seriously. I am, however, getting her a delicious fresh loaf of white bread as a Christmas present. And we'll laugh.

 

[wizards8507]

Bought Philly Soft Pretzels for the office today. A girl I work with and I had a funny exchange. She is black. I am white.

Her: Are pretzels bad for you?
Me: Nah, just wash it down with coffee.
Her: Oh OK, my Mom told me to stay away from anything white.
Me: Eyes pop out of head, jaw drops (jokingly)
Her: I meant food! I meant food! Like white bread!

We laughed, we hugged, and we both knew what she said came out the wrong way. I've known her for all of two months.

I am not reporting it to HR, I'm not going to call her racist, and I'm not going to take it seriously. I am, however, getting her a delicious fresh loaf of white bread as a Christmas present. And we'll laugh.

Just ask her out bro.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Just ask her out bro.

She's married. Am I racist if I don't ask her out?

 

[GoldenDome]

Way to move the goalposts buddy. Why didn't Mexicans organize and protest the death of "one of their own" when the guy who spurred this whole conversation between the two of us died? You've taken the onus of coverage from the media to private people now that I have shown examples that blow your little narrative up. Why don't you hold the same standard in each situation?

Why do Meixcans have to protest to get a large movement yet Bryan Stow did not? Isn't that the essence of the argument?

You have yet to answer the question as to why one had a huge following and one did not. You keep skating from the question and deflecting.

These two cases have very close parallels and very similar situations. There could be other situational factors that should be examined by why was there such a huge discrepancy? Social support, media coverage, systemic thinking? I think a little of everything is the cause but you cannot simply deny the fact that one was hugely popular and got worldwide support while he other was swept underneath the rug.

But keep deflecting and skating your way past this issue by bringing up other examples with very little parallels and totally different sitational context. The variable was race. Population, demographics, environment, events were almost identical. Could background information be the cause of this discrepancy? mostly likely it was a factor. How significant, who knows?

 

[Wild Bill]

She's married. Am I racist if I don't ask her out?

Every time you're hitting on a girl and she assumes you have a giant schlong, that's Black Privilege.

Don't waste your time, Leppy.

 

[ickythump1225]

Why do Meixcans have to protest to get a large movement yet Bryan Stow did not? Isn't that the essence of the argument?

Why should white people have to organize a protest to get a large movement yet Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown did not. The only reason anyone protested either case is because the media was already fanning the flames. The media coverage in the Bryan Stow case was not nearly as big as you are making it out to be, it certainly pales in comparison to the non-stop media coverage of the Martin and Brown cases.

I'm not "skating and deflecting" I'm showing examples where white victims do not get even 0.0000001% of the coverage as "minority" victims do. I also did bring up a case where a white fan was murdered at a sporting event yet your response was "..........". I'm starting to believe you don't really want to discuss anything. You just throw up these strawman arguments, I show they are wrong or show counter examples, and then you just move the goalposts of the debate.

Your arguments are hyperbolic, "oh the media doesn't find the deaths of Mexicans newsworthy" or "everyone just assumes when a Mexican dies that they were in a gang." That's just so absurd and irrational it doesn't really warrant the serious discussion I've attempted to have with you.

Mexico’s missing students: A gruesome mass murder | The Economist
Texas mother wants justice for three children murdered in Mexico

Mexicans murdered IN Mexico get news headlines over here. Americans care about other people.