ND Coaching Changes 2016

[koonja]

This is what it points out:

HH has been here since 2012. EVERY SINGLE YEAR up until 2016, we have been singing high praises of HH. He was never on the radar for negative comments. Now this year from what people are saying about his product on the field, you would think we are talking about Booker and that he will get canned this year.

Where in reality, in his five years of being here, 2 other years aside from 2016, they have been horrible - 2013/2014 if you say 2016 was horrible.

So what has changed that we are arguing about HH's ability to coach the OL now, that we haven't mentioned it in years past? Because ND was winning? Do you want him gone? You may not think stats can be relied on, but they play a part in if people still have a job or not.

They were not as abundant, but there were absolutely people complaining about HH last year, specifically after the bowl game when they played OSU's 2nd string DL and got dominated at the LOS.

 

[beryirish]

They were not as abundant, but there were absolutely people complaining about HH last year, specifically after the bowl game when they played OSU's 2nd string DL and got dominated at the LOS.

That's 2016

 

[koonja]

That's 2016

Lol touche, but you know what I mean.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Stats to look over:

Harry came to ND in 2012:

2008: ND 101st Rushing Offense (1426) Attempts: 436
2009: 84th (1539) Attempts: 401
2010: 92nd (1646) Attempts: 414
2011: 55th (2085) Attempts: 433
2012: 38th (2462) Attempts: 506
2013: 81st (1962) Attempts: 440
2014: 70th (2073) Attempts: 484
2015: 27th (2703) Attempts: 480
2016: 80th (1960) Attempts: 438

And for me - i'm all for HH.

There are a number of factors that could have impacted the line's play this year: CBK's scheme, losing Nick Martin and Ronnie Stanley, breaking in players to new positions, Longo being a terrible S&C coach, Harry not being a good OL coach, the players not being good enough, etc...

Maybe Harry had a down year coaching (I don't agree with this), but there sure seemed to be a lot of other factors at play as well which could be stronger contributors to poor play.

So if you want to go the stat route... So we average 60th in rushing offense over Harry's 5 years.

We recruit the OL at a top 5 level, and have sent MANY RBs to the league while BK has been here. Theo Riddick, Jonas Gray, CJ Proisise, and soon to be Folston and Josh Adams.

If you think 60th is cutting it with top 5 talent at OL, and top 15 talent at RB, we are not speaking the same language.

The stats show an improvement post 2012 with HH as the offensive line coach.

But not a major improvement. Why would there be one?

The offensive line coach teaches five kids to work together to block as a team with proper technique.

The offensive line coach doesn't coach the running backs, as to how or where to hit the hole, or when to block.
The offensive line coach doesn't coach the quarterback as to what protection to call, or how long to hold onto the ball.
The offensive line coach doesn't teach the wide receivers how to run routes, or how to block
The offensive line coach doesn't ever really teach the tight ends how to block.
The offensive line coach doesn't do the play calling.
The offensive line coach doesn't design the offense.
The offensive line coach doesn't select the blocking scheme. (ZBS)

I will say this one more time, when you select a zone blocking scheme for your offense, and all of the offensive players are not developed with that in mind, and play calls are made that are counterproductive to that blocking technique, you will never have a team that plays together and clicks. And a discofuckin'bobulated team like that will make the best offensive line look like shit!

Bogs

Football 201 : The Zone Blocking Scheme
SB NATION Steel34D May 2013

The Foot-Work
The ZBS scheme relies on angles to win not power. The footwork of the men in the trenches is vital to establishing these angles. When executed perfectly the ZBS scheme appears to be a synchronized dance. However you can't dance until you know the steps.
Step Chart

A: Drive Step- This is a 6 inch step into the opponent usually used for Base blocking. The playside foot always steps first.

B: Lead Step (Zone Step)- This is a six inch step at a 45 degree angle used mainly for the inside zone play. Designed help get in front of the defender when he is shaded towards the playside.
C: Slide Step- This is a six inch horizontal step towards the play side used for outside zone plays when the defender is head up to the blocker.
D: Drop Step- This is a six inch step backwards at a 45 degree angle. It is used on an outside zone play when the defender is on the outside shade.
E: Bucket Step - This is a six inch step backward where the lineman opens his hips. It is used for an outside zone play and or when the blocker is uncovered.

The Blocking Rules
An offensive lineman in the ZBS scheme has three questions to ask when at the line of scrimmage. Am I on the playside or backside? Am I covered or uncovered? Is the person on my inside covered or uncovered? Once he answers those questions he knows what is expected of him. The three basic rules are;

If the defender is covering on the outside shade of the lineman than that lineman will take that tackle 90% of the time. On rare occasions like stunts the inside lineman may have to take him
.

If the defender is head up the lineman than 50% of the time the lineman will take this defender. The other 50% time the inside lineman will take him. This usually depends on the angle the defensive lineman takes off the snap. Regardless the lineman who is covered will at least chip the defender to allow for the uncovered lineman to get to the block.

If the defender is on the inside shade of the lineman, the lineman on the inside will be responsible for him 90% of the time. Again the originally covered lineman will chip the defender to allow his teammate to get to the block.

Combination Blocks
In the ZBS how linemen work together is incredibly important. Communication and understanding of blocking roles can increase effectiveness. The following are generic calls that are made to help identify who is working in combination and who isn't at the line of scrimmage.

ACE
ACE is generally the call for a combination block between the guard and the center. It is usually dependent on the defensive lineman. Generally if the D-linemen step towards the center he is the center responsibility the guard will chip and go to the second level. If he steps into the guard the center will chip, go to the second level and let the guard take the lineman. The guard will make the call. LION is the call for a combination block with the left guard and RAM is the call for the combination block between the right guard and center the center will specify the side to let the other blocker know.

DEUCE
Deuce is generally the call for a combination of the playside tackle and guard. Once again it is dependent on the defensive lineman and the direction he goes. The tackle will make the call at the line but only if the playside guard is free with no one lined up in front of him.

TREY
Trey is a combination block between the playside tackle and TE. It is called by the TE but only against a seven technique. This block is rarely used since the defensive end is rarely in the seven technique on the strongside.

BASE
Base is the call made by any lineman that is covered and the teammate inside him is also covered. The blocker will take a zone step and turn his body parallel to the runners' path. This is the most common call on the inside zone play.

The Big Picture
Now that the basic individual ideas of the zone blocking have been covered it is time to look at how the entire offensive line plays together. The culmination of these steps, rules and blocking combinations is two major plays in the zone blocking scheme, the Inside Zone and the Outside Zone (or Zone Stretch) .

The Inside Zone
The inside zone is one of the main inside plays of the zone blocking scheme. This play is diagramed against the 3-4 front. The playside TE zone steps and kicks out the SOLB making sure his shoulders are parallel to the runner's original path. The playside tackle zone steps to the DE again kicking him sideways with his shoulders parallel to the runner's path. The playside guard bucket steps and aims back shoulder of the defender he chips the DE and continues at that angle looking inside for the Buck LB when at the second level he will wall of the Buck.

The center takes a slide step and walls off the NT. The backside guard bucket steps chips the NT and goes for the Mack. The backside tackle either walls off the DE or cut blocks him. The Will is left unblocked as he will likely not make the play. The runner reads helmets of the blocker and defender. If the LE's helmet is on the same side of the hole (in this case the inside) he must choose a different route as the probability of the linemen keeping the defender out of the hole is low.

He can choose to cut back behind the centers butt, if the NT is walled off, or cut to the back of the TE, if the SOLB is walled off. However he must wait until he is at the heels of the tackle before he makes his cut so that the linebackers can be effectively blocked.
The Outside Zone

The outside zone or also called the zone stretch is probably the most recognizable play in the zone blocking scheme. This play is diagramed against a 3-4 scheme. The key read is the TE block on the SOLB. The running back is reading the helmet of the defender. If the helmet is on the outside the running back will cut back on the backside of the guard.
If the DE helmet is on the outside of the guard the RB will cut to the backside of the center. If the defenders helmet is on the inside the running back will continue to the outside. The basic rules are observed. The two guards are uncovered and take a bucket step to get to the lineman covering the blocker on the playside of them. The center and tackle maintain their blocks until the guard forces them off and then they go to the second level. The design of this play is to get the RB 1-on-1 against a CB where they are expected to break a tackle.

Plays from the 2 TE Set
The two TE set is preferred by some zone blocking coaches because there are multiple plays that can be run out of it and the plays can be run to either side, Note the similarity in ever play and that is the lineman from the inside shade of the backside guard to the lineman on the outside shade of the tackle will always be double teamed to start the play. Remember zone scheme don't want to allow and penetration across the line.

As you can see the zone blocking scheme requires offensive linemen who have quick feet and can get their body in between the defender and the running back. The ZBS also requires smart offensive linemen. The blocking rules allow the linemen to figure out who they are blocking quickly which is a major advantage, however the linemen have to be aware enough to know if they are the ones who peel off from the initial double team or if their teammate should.

Most importantly the offensive line has to work in unison. Each player has to know what the man next to them is thinking and there needs to be little to no hesitation. A perfectly executed zone play is like a well-choreographed dance . . .

. . . the running backs . . . need a player with quick feet and good vision. They need someone who is comfortable reading the helmets of the defender and understanding when and where he should direct his run . . .

A running back that has this vision and quick feet, not necessarily speed, will succeed in the zone blocking scheme.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Bogs preaching truth

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

There are a number of factors that could have impacted the line's play this year: CBK's scheme, losing Nick Martin and Ronnie Stanley, breaking in players to new positions, Longo being a terrible S&C coach, Harry not being a good OL coach, the players not being good enough, etc...

Maybe Harry had a down year coaching (I don't agree with this), but there sure seemed to be a lot of other factors at play as well which could be stronger contributors to poor play.

Zone blocking blows.

 

[Wingman Ray]

The stats show an improvement post 2012 with HH as the offensive line coach.

But not a major improvement. Why would there be one?

The offensive line coach teaches five kids to work together to block as a team with proper technique.

The offensive line coach doesn't coach the running backs, as to how or where to hit the hole, or when to block.
The offensive line coach doesn't coach the quarterback as to what protection to call, or how long to hold onto the ball.
The offensive line coach doesn't teach the wide receivers how to run routes, or how to block
The offensive line coach doesn't ever really teach the tight ends how to block.
The offensive line coach doesn't do the play calling.
The offensive line coach doesn't design the offense.
The offensive line coach doesn't select the blocking scheme. (ZBS)
Bogs[/SIZE]

Yet it is pretty common knowledge in CFB that a great OL can make an average RB look like a Heisman trophy candidate while a great RB cant do jack if the OL cant open holes.

There is/was no excuse for NDs line to be stuffed by Navys DL. NONE WHATSOEVER. HH and the entire OL should have hung their heads and cried to mama on that. That was pathetic. In fact, pathetic is an understatement.

If your S&C is so bad that you cant handle guys 50 lbs under you, then anyone should be able to see physically that the guys arent there and make changes. Yet another screw you BK for hanging on to your good ole boy friend all those years.

HS OL play is pretty simple. You have 3-4 block types and that is it. It is mostly centered around paving the road. Remember all the oohs and ahhs we would give about a recruit and the run pancaking in their highlight film? Did they just forget to do this when they put on the ND uniform?

 

[IrishLax]

So if you want to go the stat route... So we average 60th in rushing offense over Harry's 5 years.

We recruit the OL at a top 5 level, and have sent MANY RBs to the league while BK has been here. Theo Riddick, Jonas Gray, CJ Proisise, and soon to be Folston and Josh Adams.

If you think 60th is cutting it with top 5 talent at OL, and top 15 talent at RB, we are not speaking the same language.

God you are insufferably stupid sometimes. Go compare the YPC of Prosise and Adams last war to that of the Heisman finalists and Fournette. Then please shut up.

 

[koonja]

God you are insufferably stupid sometimes. Go compare the YPC of Prosise and Adams last war to that of the Heisman finalists and Fournette. Then please shut up.

That's hurtful.

I said to me it's not about stats, it's subjective and relative (how well do you recruit OL? How good are the teams you're facing? Are you able to get 3 yards when it's pay dirt time, etc).

But I said if you feel you MUST entertain stats, don't look at individual stats, look at the TOTAL TEAM (see above) YPC/rushing stats.

So your comment is disregarding my point, and therefore unworthy of addressing, since I don't buy stats for OL success 1, and 2, if I did, I'd look at total team rushing, not individuals. So to again put it in terms you can understand, I don't give a rats about one individual's rushing stats, it's about the team rushing if you insist on using stats to judge your OL.

But I'm the stupid one, lol.:jawdrop:

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

If y'all want to use stats, at least use something adjusted for context.

It makes no sense to lump all FBS schools together without adjusting for opponents given that most teams do not play power 5-quality schools on the regular.

 

[koonja]

If y'all want to use stats, at least use something adjusted for context.

It makes no sense to lump all FBS schools together without adjusting for opponents given that most teams do not play power 5-quality schools on the regular.

Here, here. And individual stats don't tell shit about OL play, you look at the team as a whole. Just a silly argument from the hurtful one above.

 

[IrishLax]

Here, here. And individual stats don't tell shit about OL play, you look at the team as a whole. Just a silly argument from the hurtful one above.

As already discussed in multiple threads, football outsiders has advanced stats on rushing and OL play. They prove everything you are saying is woefully incorrect and ignorant. I can't make you stop being wrong, but I can ask you to stop clogging up a coaching change thresd with your crap.

 

[koonja]

As already discussed in multiple threads, football outsiders has advanced stats on rushing and OL play. They prove everything you are saying is woefully incorrect and ignorant. I can't make you stop being wrong, but I can ask you to stop clogging up a coaching change thresd with your crap.

You only told me to look at Fornette's YPC and compare it to Procise's. I don't understand what that has to do with proving our OL is relatively good at rushing, or even with the advanced stats that you're now alluding to. Fournette carried the ball more against WAY better defenses. YPC is going to be skewed if that's a measuring stick, OL performance be damned.

I full expect Procise to have a better YPC than Fournette (I'm assuming that's your point?). Who cares? That doesn't tell me Procise was running behind a better OL. It's the smallest piece of the puzzle and almost meaningless to look at individual YPC's.

 

[koonja]

If y'all want to use stats, at least use something adjusted for context.

It makes no sense to lump all FBS schools together without adjusting for opponents given that most teams do not play power 5-quality schools on the regular.

Thanks for posting. I do not know how they calculate this, but I'll assume it's the best adjusted statistic to roll with.

So based on stats, our OL ranked 26th. When we recruit OL at a top 5 rate, 26th is understandable, but it's certainly not good.

Based on observation, such as can you get 3 yards when you need to against Duke, our rushing OL under performed significantly IMO.

 

[Downinthebend]

I'd say anyone who thinks our OL's run blocking this year makes any questions about it untouchable doesn't know a damn thing about football.

Take out runs over 20+ yards from the equation. Did you see how many times Duke/Navy/a shitty MSU/shitty Stanford team absolutely stoned us at the LOS? Or do we not pay attention to things that are observable but unquantifiable (aka, stats)?

I don't have data for Stanford/Duke, but we had one 20+ yard run between Navy/MSU.


for a box differential of 0 for navy/msu (even numbers) we had 5 yards per carry
for a box differential of 1 for navy/msy (one more defender) we had 10.6 yards per carry.

So... I don't have data for the other games (yet tm) but two of the games its not really true at all.

 

[Downinthebend]

Thats not true considering Brian Kelly and this offense is pass happy. Looking at our total rushing yards to see how good our o-line is isn't fair. Looking at the total amount of sacks given up is a better stat to look at.

But if we are looking at rushing stats, Josh Adams averaged 5.9 yards per rush in 2016. How is that not a sign of a good o-line? Dexter Williams averaged 5.1 ypc and Folston averaged 4.3 ypc, also.

I dont really agree that we have a pass happy offense, we more have an offense dictated by the numbers of the box, when we have fair numbers we're basically exactly balanced.

And thats not even counting screens as not being true passes

 

[Downinthebend]

The stats show an improvement post 2012 with HH as the offensive line coach.

But not a major improvement. Why would there be one?

The offensive line coach teaches five kids to work together to block as a team with proper technique.

The offensive line coach doesn't coach the running backs, as to how or where to hit the hole, or when to block.
The offensive line coach doesn't coach the quarterback as to what protection to call, or how long to hold onto the ball.
The offensive line coach doesn't teach the wide receivers how to run routes, or how to block
The offensive line coach doesn't ever really teach the tight ends how to block.
The offensive line coach doesn't do the play calling.
The offensive line coach doesn't design the offense.
The offensive line coach doesn't select the blocking scheme. (ZBS)

I will say this one more time, when you select a zone blocking scheme for your offense, and all of the offensive players are not developed with that in mind, and play calls are made that are counterproductive to that blocking technique, you will never have a team that plays together and clicks. And a discofuckin'bobulated team like that will make the best offensive line look like shit!

Bogs

My only gripe with this is we're not a full zone team, we're roughly 25% gap blocking

 

[kmoose]

My only gripe with this is we're not a full zone team, we're roughly 25% gap blocking

My gripe is that the OL are all 4 and 5 star guys. Are we saying that 4 and 5 * guys should not be able to block guys 50-60 lbs lighter than them, no matter what technique is asked of them? Shouldn't that be one of the qualifications for a 4th or 5th star; the ability to effectively employ more than one blocking technique?

 

[koonja]

My gripe is that the OL are all 4 and 5 star guys. Are we saying that 4 and 5 * guys should not be able to block guys 50-60 lbs lighter than them, no matter what technique is asked of them? Shouldn't that be one of the qualifications for a 4th or 5th star; the ability to effectively employ more than one blocking technique?

Yeah but you're not using stats bro so you can't possibly say the OL is under performing. Context and relativity is for the birds.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

My gripe is that the OL are all 4 and 5 star guys. Are we saying that 4 and 5 * guys should not be able to block guys 50-60 lbs lighter than them, no matter what technique is asked of them? Shouldn't that be one of the qualifications for a 4th or 5th star; the ability to effectively employ more than one blocking technique?

Way to much thinking going on with zone blocking. What we should do is identify the mike, let the center make the call and roll. instead its essentially a guessing game on who blocks who.

 

[MNIrishman]

Yeah but you're not using stats bro so you can't possibly say the OL is under performing. Context and relativity is for the birds.

Relativity is for the physicists. I think you mean relativism.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

My only gripe with this is we're not a full zone team, we're roughly 25% gap blocking

Your comments here are among the most intelligent I have seen.

I know there is a big distinction between Zone and Gap as concept, but they come out for all intent and purpose with gap being a subset of Zone, don't they?

Because anytime you run backside, or against your power, your zone turns automatically to gap, because everything becomes a reach block, except at the point of attack. Did I say that right, because my head is aching.

Yes ND uses gap blocking within a zone scheme.

We can talk nuances, and I will inevitably falter. But the key point is that Kelly plans to use angle of attack, instead of brute strength.

With the blocking that ND uses, you will rarely if ever see a pancake, because once your man is out of the play, you are releasing to the next level to find a target.

This is the great point of it; you don't have to be the biggest and strongest, you just have to have the best footwork and be the smartest. (Read in offensive linemen can get slowed down by too much decision making, just like linebackers on defense.)

Now for the bad part. With true zone and gap combined, a lineman's first step cuts what the defender has to do to stop the play significantly, and by the second, if properly diagnosed by a defender, there is nothing the lineman can do to win the battle. It is done after less than a second, if the defender diagnoses and defends correctly.

Sounds risky, what's the reward. If an offense mixes it up, a defender can't count on predicting what is going on. That is my problem with Kelly's offense; it is entirely too predictable.

And of course my problem with fans that don't know their asses from a hole in the ground is that they waste my time, making themselves looking foolish, calling people that work hard and do great things names. Just because it makes them feel more secure about their own narrative.

They should read your post instead. I wonder how, five and ten yards a carry stack up against Navy in past games? Thanks for the light, bro! Got a Bud Lite?

 

[Rocket89]

I have some questions about it. I sat at the 50 yard line and watched the OL struggle to open holes against NAVY. And it wasn't because smaller, quicker guys were shooting gaps on them; smaller guys were standing our players up and holding their ground against them. It was ridiculous. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say that Heistand is, or isn't, doing his job............ but I know a fair amount about football, and I have some questions about the OL.

My gripe is that the OL are all 4 and 5 star guys. Are we saying that 4 and 5 * guys should not be able to block guys 50-60 lbs lighter than them, no matter what technique is asked of them? Shouldn't that be one of the qualifications for a 4th or 5th star; the ability to effectively employ more than one blocking technique?

1) Navy as this small team is a myth. It's not 1997 anymore. Their defense is roughly the size of a middle-of-the-pack Power 5 team. Their offense essentially equal to most Power 5 linemen. They have 13 players 300+ pounds on their roster. 32 players who are 280+ pounds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/sports/ncaafootball/navy-midshipmen-army-football.html?_r=1

2) Where did this myth that we faltered so much against Navy come from? We rushed for 147 yards at 5.07 per carry in a ridiculously shortened game. Our run success rate was 53.5% not great but plenty fine. We ran the ball on third and short four times and picked up first downs every time.

Aren't we past the point where we expect to rush for 10 yards on every carry against Navy, or pretend that we should dominate them like they're a high school team?

 

[IrishLion]

1) Navy as this small team is a myth. It's not 1997 anymore. Their defense is roughly the size of a middle-of-the-pack Power 5 team. Their offense essentially equal to most Power 5 linemen. They have 13 players 300+ pounds on their roster. 32 players who are 280+ pounds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/sports/ncaafootball/navy-midshipmen-army-football.html?_r=1

2) Where did this myth that we faltered so much against Navy come from? We rushed for 147 yards at 5.07 per carry in a ridiculously shortened game. Our run success rate was 53.5% not great but plenty fine. We ran the ball on third and short four times and picked up first downs every time.

Aren't we past the point where we expect to rush for 10 yards on every carry against Navy, or pretend that we should dominate them like they're a high school team?

Point 1 is why their cut-blocking scheme is so irritating these days.

It's dangerous, and their program no longer has the limitations that make it necessary

 

[Meatloaf]

Per wndu, Gilmour is out.

 

[koonja]

Per wndu, Gilmour is out.

BK is killing it right now.

 

[koonja]

I would like to gnaw on some crow.

I said absolutely necessary: Longo has to be fired.
Really good situation: Longo plus 1 of Booker/Gilmore gets fired.
Grand slam situation: Longo, Booker, and Gilmore get fired.

I had every bit out doubt BK would go beyond 1 of these moves, and he hit a grand slam with fires.

 

[IrishFanJMercy]

Why such the hate for Gilmore? He killed it at UNC? He was only here two years and Romeo turned it on last year?! I know he wasn't killing it here but he also hasn't had much to work with recruiting wise?!

 

[gkIrish]

I would like to gnaw on some crow.

I said absolutely necessary: Longo has to be fired.
Really good situation: Longo plus 1 of Booker/Gilmore gets fired.
Grand slam situation: Longo, Booker, and Gilmore get fired.

I had every bit out doubt BK would go beyond 1 of these moves, and he hit a grand slam with fires.

Assuming it was his decision to make, yes great job.

 

[koonja]

Why such the hate for Gilmore? He killed it at UNC? He was only here two years and Romeo turned it on last year?! I know he wasn't killing it here but he also hasn't had much to work with recruiting wise?!

Assuming it was his decision to make, yes great job.

He did? Didn't they routinely give up like 40? And Romeo was unnoteceable last year and got single teamed and stood up on the reg. He had the most gifted sacks in NCAA history, with others pushing the QB into him. I've never seen anything like it, no opponent was afraid of Romeo last year.

That's a fair caveat.