Mike Gundy Wears an OAN Shirt

[Irish YJ]

Imagine that. Agree completely. I doubt Laura Ingram will ever be able to say that same. Lol. Salud!

Marx has undoubtedly influenced one of the world's greatest living philosophers in Alasdair MacIntyre, who just so happens to be a practicing Catholic and an emeritus professor/senior research fellow at...the University of Notre Dame. One can be vehemently opposed to communism while also still taking Marx's critiques of capital at face value.

Keep in mind that it was MacIntyre's study of Marxism that eventually led him to reject Marxism. Where MacIntyre started is not where he ended up.

 

[Irish YJ]

My point is that the above has basically been true in every society at any point in human history. The Loyalists probably weren't super pumped about being tarred, feathered, and ridden out of town on poles for not wanting to go at war with their own country, etc.

Yes, the mass publication of public faux pas often means someone's worst moment can live forever, but often the same effect occurred before modern times. If a blacksmith was disliked by his village, it wasn't like he could just load everything into his Chevy and move on easy peasy.

The point is, it's not "crazy overblown" as you described it. It's eggshells everywhere right now. And my buddy didn't have a faux pas. He simply complained about a 5 Guys getting destroyed...

 

[greyhammer90]

The point is, it's not "crazy overblown" as you described it. It's eggshells everywhere right now.

Your personal anecdote does not intrinsically reflect reality any more than mine does. I'm not experiencing eggshells. I work in a place where I saw two people mildly argue over the effectiveness of the protests, and nobody filed a complaint. Does that mean I get to ignore your posts?

Between your niece apparently being bullied by libs at her college, your buddy facing workplace consequences for complaining that he couldn't get his regular milkshake, your Marxist professor, and seemingly every experience you have with anyone under 40, I'd say you're either extremely unlucky or unconsciously seek these experiences out because they confirm your worldview and serve as a useful counter-point in arguments. Move to Tennessee, apparently we are a Garden of Eden because I don't run into these things at all.

 

[Irish YJ]

Your personal anecdote does not intrinsically reflect reality any more than mine does. I'm not experiencing eggshells. I work in a place where I saw two people mildly argue over the effectiveness of the protests, and nobody filed a complaint. Does that mean I get to ignore your posts?

Between your niece apparently being bullied by libs at her college, your buddy facing workplace consequences for complaining that he couldn't get his regular milkshake, your Marxist professor, and seemingly every experience you have with anyone under 40, I'd say you're either extremely unlucky or unconsciously seek these experiences out because they confirm your worldview and serve as a useful counter-point in arguments. Move to Tennessee, apparently we are a Garden of Eden because I don't run into these things at all.

Many on the board have shared "anecdotal" evidence of eggshells. I was born in the 70s, come from a very large family (100+ cousins on just one side), have managed large orgs in my day in over 20 countries, have lived and worked outside the US, and have a large circle of friends. I've been blessed with a lot of experiences, so don't need to seek them out. And as you know, I've been in TN plenty. Great place. That said, if you're simply dismissing the cancel culture as some type of conspiracy, you're ignoring what's been in plain site for quite a while now. Just because conservatives complain about, or comedians joke about, doesn't mean it's not real. You can see it everyday on SM, which is an extension of society itself. I'm not in an echo chamber, are you?

 

[fightingirish26]

how much longer does he last?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">To Oklahoma State University President: <a href="https://twitter.com/burnshargis?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@burnshargis</a> <br><br>In the Nov. 14, 1989, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Colorado football player Tim James said Mike Gundy called "several" Colorado players "niggers."<br><br>James: "I can't count the number of times he used that word."<br><br>cc: <a href="https://twitter.com/Hubbard_RMN?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Hubbard_RMN</a> <a href="https://t.co/5P071G2dL8">pic.twitter.com/5P071G2dL8</a></p>— SportsbyBrooks (@SportsbyBrooks) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsbyBrooks/status/1273390075112554505?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 17, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Bluto]

Keep in mind that it was MacIntyre's study of Marxism that eventually led him to reject Marxism. Where MacIntyre started is not where he ended up.

That does not diminish the importance of Marx. His challenge of the primacy of capital is a critical point of consideration even if one “rejects” a purist form of “Marxism”. Keep pushing those rocks uphill dog.

 

[ulukinatme]

Your personal anecdote does not intrinsically reflect reality any more than mine does. I'm not experiencing eggshells. I work in a place where I saw two people mildly argue over the effectiveness of the protests, and nobody filed a complaint. Does that mean I get to ignore your posts?

Between your niece apparently being bullied by libs at her college, your buddy facing workplace consequences for complaining that he couldn't get his regular milkshake, your Marxist professor, and seemingly every experience you have with anyone under 40, I'd say you're either extremely unlucky or unconsciously seek these experiences out because they confirm your worldview and serve as a useful counter-point in arguments. Move to Tennessee, apparently we are a Garden of Eden because I don't run into these things at all.

Could be a southern thing. Up here we can't say shit. I've lived my whole life in Ohio, and while I understand that the Confederate/Battle Flag started out as a symbol of the Civil War, I also understand that much later it became a symbol of southern pride for some time. It was "taken back," so to speak (At least prior to the Charleston church shooting tragedy in 2015). It's been used in various forms of media over the years with no clear connections to slavery, shows and movies like the Dukes of Hazard, Days of Thunder, Smokey and the Bandit, and Thelma and Louise. That said, I saw this post that a family member shared earlier today:

It's quite a generalization to say the Civil War was just about slavery, that was just a part of it. There were differing opinions on state rights, westward expansion, economic and cultural differences, it can't be boiled down to just one aspect. Some people here will never see it as anything else though. Unfortunately, even if the Confederate Flag had become somewhat of a partially cleansed symbol in modern times, it once again became associated with complete filth after Charleston. As a result, the Confederate Flag's days were numbered once more.

Now again, I know I've never lived in the south and maybe I've interpreted it incorrectly, but prior to that shooting there were many that saw it as a positive symbol of southern pride I've been told. I recall seeing something like 43% in the north viewing it positively before the shooting, and as high as 70% in the south, although there's a much bigger divide between white and black southerners. I guess what I'm getting at is it just shows how culturally different even today the yanks are to southerners.

I wanted to make a reply to my family member's post above, adding the points I outlined here and more to support it, and to say that the Confederate Flag was more than slavery especially in the decades prior to 5 years ago, but again...I dare not say something as that's the kind of talk that gets you labeled the family racist and leads to awkward Thanksgivings. Again, I certainly can't condone flying the flag today after it's ties to the tragedy tarnished it once more, but I get why many viewed it differently and it evolved into something different at one point in time.

 

[NDRock]

Your personal anecdote does not intrinsically reflect reality any more than mine does. I'm not experiencing eggshells. I work in a place where I saw two people mildly argue over the effectiveness of the protests, and nobody filed a complaint. Does that mean I get to ignore your posts?

Between your niece apparently being bullied by libs at her college, your buddy facing workplace consequences for complaining that he couldn't get his regular milkshake, your Marxist professor, and seemingly every experience you have with anyone under 40, I'd say you're either extremely unlucky or unconsciously seek these experiences out because they confirm your worldview and serve as a useful counter-point in arguments. Move to Tennessee, apparently we are a Garden of Eden because I don't run into these things at all.

Must be Tennessee because my experience echos yours.

 

[NDRock]

Could be a southern thing. Up here we can't say shit. I've lived my whole life in Ohio, and while I understand that the Confederate/Battle Flag started out as a symbol of the Civil War, I also understand that much later it became a symbol of southern pride for some time. It was "taken back," so to speak (At least prior to the Charleston church shooting tragedy in 2015). It's been used in various forms of media over the years with no clear connections to slavery, shows and movies like the Dukes of Hazard, Days of Thunder, Smokey and the Bandit, and Thelma and Louise. That said, I saw this post that a family member shared earlier today:

I've lived in the south my whole life. Love history, read a lot about the civil war and always end up "rooting" for the South (although I know the ending). Personally, I think it's obvious the Confederacy was formed because of slavery. You can read their own words in the Declaration of Causes, speeches at the time, newspapers articles. There is a reason the Confederate Constitution mandated all current and future states must be slave owning. I've heard others try to make it all about tariffs and westward expansion or something else. You could argue the war wasn't about slavery as that wasn't the North's main reason. They always seemed like a jealous husband who wouldn't let their wife get a divorce.

As far as the flag, I never understand the draw in celebrating that time in history. Yes, the War is very interesting but taking pride in it seems strange to me. It was a Revolution based on the institution of slavery and the South was utterly defeated. Not sure it's something great to celebrate. The only people who really fly the flag around here are poor, white folk. You see it on older trucks, houses, or trailers. You never see some very nice house or new car with the Confederate flag flying (I'm sure it's out there).

Where I'm at in east Tennessee, the sentiment at the time was very pro Union (almost 3 to 1). Most here don't even realize that. There was talk at the time of breaking away and joining the Union.

 

[Irish#1]

Could be a southern thing. Up here we can't say shit. I've lived my whole life in Ohio, and while I understand that the Confederate/Battle Flag started out as a symbol of the Civil War, I also understand that much later it became a symbol of southern pride for some time. It was "taken back," so to speak (At least prior to the Charleston church shooting tragedy in 2015). It's been used in various forms of media over the years with no clear connections to slavery, shows and movies like the Dukes of Hazard, Days of Thunder, Smokey and the Bandit, and Thelma and Louise. That said, I saw this post that a family member shared earlier today:

It's quite a generalization to say the Civil War was just about slavery, that was just a part of it. There were differing opinions on state rights, westward expansion, economic and cultural differences, it can't be boiled down to just one aspect. Some people here will never see it as anything else though. Unfortunately, even if the Confederate Flag had become somewhat of a partially cleansed symbol in modern times, it once again became associated with complete filth after Charleston. As a result, the Confederate Flag's days were numbered once more.

Now again, I know I've never lived in the south and maybe I've interpreted it incorrectly, but prior to that shooting there were many that saw it as a positive symbol of southern pride I've been told. I recall seeing something like 43% in the north viewing it positively before the shooting, and as high as 70% in the south, although there's a much bigger divide between white and black southerners. I guess what I'm getting at is it just shows how culturally different even today the yanks are to southerners.

I wanted to make a reply to my family member's post above, adding the points I outlined here and more to support it, and to say that the Confederate Flag was more than slavery especially in the decades prior to 5 years ago, but again...I dare not say something as that's the kind of talk that gets you labeled the family racist and leads to awkward Thanksgivings. Again, I certainly can't condone flying the flag today after it's ties to the tragedy tarnished it once more, but I get why many viewed it differently and it evolved into something different at one point in time.

On a side note, the flags in that pic are not the Confederate flag, but actually the battle flag of the Army of Virginia that Lee flew. The actual flag that represented the southern states is this.

 

[Irish#1]

That's the price of freedom of speech. "Marketplace of ideas" and all that. You have to be willing to stick your nuts out there and get swatted. Lots of people weren't appreciated for sharing their perspectives in the past but did it anyway, on both the left and the right, at great personal cost. Fuckin MLK was getting death threats directly from the FBI. That's censorship through force.

I'm not going to lose sleep over the fact that a football coach feels pressured to capitulate to the subset of the population that he is paid a literal fortune to identify with. I could do that, and I could do it without being total agreement with them on every point and without looking like a slime ball. Probably couldn't grow the mullet though.

Part of the problem as I see it, are those that don't like something or disagree don't want to have that uncomfortable discussion. They want to immediately condemn the other(s) without understanding why that person said what they said or wore a particular piece of clothing. It's a two way street that many think is a one way street.

 

[ARALOU]

The sad thing about me is, I dont scour the internet looking for news sources. I could not have told you what his shirt meant one way or another. I suffer from lack of knowledge about certain things. Maybe it keeps me from serious stress. Which right now, I dont need.

 

[NDohio]

Could be a southern thing. Up here we can't say shit. I've lived my whole life in Ohio, and while I understand that the Confederate/Battle Flag started out as a symbol of the Civil War, I also understand that much later it became a symbol of southern pride for some time. It was "taken back," so to speak (At least prior to the Charleston church shooting tragedy in 2015). It's been used in various forms of media over the years with no clear connections to slavery, shows and movies like the Dukes of Hazard, Days of Thunder, Smokey and the Bandit, and Thelma and Louise. That said, I saw this post that a family member shared earlier today:

It's quite a generalization to say the Civil War was just about slavery, that was just a part of it. There were differing opinions on state rights, westward expansion, economic and cultural differences, it can't be boiled down to just one aspect. Some people here will never see it as anything else though. Unfortunately, even if the Confederate Flag had become somewhat of a partially cleansed symbol in modern times, it once again became associated with complete filth after Charleston. As a result, the Confederate Flag's days were numbered once more.

Now again, I know I've never lived in the south and maybe I've interpreted it incorrectly, but prior to that shooting there were many that saw it as a positive symbol of southern pride I've been told. I recall seeing something like 43% in the north viewing it positively before the shooting, and as high as 70% in the south, although there's a much bigger divide between white and black southerners. I guess what I'm getting at is it just shows how culturally different even today the yanks are to southerners.

I wanted to make a reply to my family member's post above, adding the points I outlined here and more to support it, and to say that the Confederate Flag was more than slavery especially in the decades prior to 5 years ago, but again...I dare not say something as that's the kind of talk that gets you labeled the family racist and leads to awkward Thanksgivings. Again, I certainly can't condone flying the flag today after it's ties to the tragedy tarnished it once more, but I get why many viewed it differently and it evolved into something different at one point in time.

I grew up in the same part of OH where you live. In 2012 I moved my family to a small town in South Carolina. It was such a quintessential, small southern town - the kind of charming place you see on TV/movies. I will never be able to explain it to people that haven't experienced the differences in the culture from the north to being in that particular southern environment. The racial tension is constant, the tension between us (damn yankees - not kidding) and the locals was constant.

My wife taught HS while we lived there. It was so bizarre for her to have kids sitting in her classroom with the same last name - one being a rich white kid living in the "uptown" area in a big beautiful antebellum home, the other being a poor black kid. They both know the history of their last names - the white kid's family owned the black kid's family.

We took in a black girl that had a pretty rough family life. She unofficially became a part of our family and that act basically drove us out of that town. You truly have no idea.

I can tell you that from my experience in small town South Carolina that flag stands for one thing and one thing only. The buzz word of "Heritage" means the heritage of keeping the black man down. Now, is it possible that people that aren't steeped in the true south see the flag as some sort of representation of southern lifestyle? That could be true, but overall that flag does represent something that shouldn't be celebrated.

Oh, and yeah, that war was about slavery...

 

[IrishLion]

Many on the board have shared "anecdotal" evidence of eggshells. I was born in the 70s, come from a very large family (100+ cousins on just one side), have managed large orgs in my day in over 20 countries, have lived and worked outside the US, and have a large circle of friends. I've been blessed with a lot of experiences, so don't need to seek them out. And as you know, I've been in TN plenty. Great place. That said, if you're simply dismissing the cancel culture as some type of conspiracy, you're ignoring what's been in plain site for quite a while now. Just because conservatives complain about, or comedians joke about, doesn't mean it's not real. You can see it everyday on SM, which is an extension of society itself. I'm not in an echo chamber, are you?

Social media IS NOT reflective of society, though.

It's reflective of your family or social circle, or of the viewpoints you select... but ultimately, the entirety of social media is an echo chamber for the extremes on both sides, and doesn't reflect the reasonable nature of most humans.

If SM was a true extension of society, Trump wouldn't be president.

I don't always agree with Clay Travis (he's a shock-jock that claims to be a democrat but somehow never criticizes Trump for anything, ever, while lamenting snowflake culture any time a leftist opens their mouth about anything; hates Notre Dame when it's necessary but sings their praises when he knows it will rile up the SEC base; etc.), but one thing he's always been on the money about is that Twitter, Facebook, etc. don't prove anything about the actual real world.

You have a racist uncle that is always saying dumb shit on Facebook... that doesn't mean every older white guy out there is racist.

You know a college student on Twitter that is trying to cancel everyone they don't agree with, at all times... that doesn't mean every college student is a snowflake.

Treating social media as an extension of reasonable society, or basing an argument in that belief, is not a good starting place IMO.

 

[greyhammer90]

Oh, and yeah, that war was about slavery...

My favorite Civil War exchange:

"The Civil War wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights!"
"States' rights to do what?"
"..."

 

[BeauBenken]

My favorite Civil War exchange:



"The Civil War wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights!"

"States' rights to do what?"

"..."

One read over South Carolina's declaration of secession usually makes this pretty clear.

Don't buy into what the slaveholders and southern elites were trying to convince the general southern population of -- that it was just "state rights" and freedoms and that the north was intentionally damaging the economy of the South. South Carolina was the leader in the secession movement and made it clear that they didn't like that the North and Abraham Lincoln threatened the institution of slavery. That was the focus.



Sent from my SM-J337U using Tapatalk

 

[NDohio]

My favorite Civil War exchange:

"The Civil War wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights!"
"States' rights to do what?"
"..."

LOL - I've had this conversation many, many times.

 

[IrishLion]

RE: Heritage, not hate

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"iT's oUr HeRitAgE" <br>Pokemon Go has lasted longer than the confederacy did and with three times the Americans behind it, you're lucky they only took the statues down instead of replacing them with Pikachus</p>— Audrey (@lifeasasleeper) <a href="https://twitter.com/lifeasasleeper/status/1271283975999324160?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 12, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Irishize]

The sad thing about me is, I dont scour the internet looking for news sources. I could not have told you what his shirt meant one way or another. I suffer from lack of knowledge about certain things. Maybe it keeps me from serious stress. Which right now, I dont need.

You’re better off. We can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube but do the benefits truly outweigh the lack of civility anymore?

 

[Irishize]

Well I think the whole "you can't say anything anymore" thing is crazy overblown. There are extreme examples where someone got worse than what was coming to them, but it feels like there are three types of people that I hear this from more than anyone:

1) Conservative political commentators who make insane amounts of money talking about how you couldn't possibly make money by having their opinions,

2) Comedians who make massive amounts of money making jokes about how "nobody lets us joke about that anymore"

3) People who listen to the two above and nod their heads aggressively

Shapiro/Peterson/Dave Rubin/Charlie Kirk all seem to make great money talking about things "THEY aren't letting me say." Their entire platforms/celebrity are built around it. I like occasionally listening to some of those guys, but I'm not going to just sweep it under the rug that they often act persecuted for an identity that they have carefully manufactured to be appealing to their own base and obnoxious to anyone else.

Then you have comedians, who make it sound like we live in Nazi Germany while having more freedom to mock than ever. Sure Chappelle gets unfavorable ratings from some critics, but he's being paid millions to make fun of trans people and even the libs at reddit thought it was hilarious. Bill Burr's entire act is about saying something that makes an audience uncomfortable and then mugging for the camera and saying "That's what's wrong with this country!" Rogan frequently talks about soft the entire country is and how you can't disagree with anyone, as his numbers continue to grow and he brings on conservative political pundits to talk about the absurdity of identity politics. Again to pluck from the annals of history, this isn't exactly George Carlin being arrested for swearing.

If you have something intelligent to say, and say it in an intelligent way (or in Jordan Peterson's case, a way that seems intelligent), or have something funny to say, and say it in a funny way, you will not only not be cancelled but will be listened to by tons of people. If cancel culture was as pervasive and effective as everyone seems to think, we wouldn't have Trump as president.*

*Proving you don't even need to say it in a way that seems intelligent.

I understand you point about Rubin/Peterson/Shapiro etc b/c so many folks ONLY listen to one or two voices and take everything they say as “Gospel”. Here’s what I do appreciate about Peterson, Rubin, Shapiro, Rogan....they can have CIVIL debate with folks like Bret & Eric Weinstein, Sam Harris, Bill Maher, Christina Sommers, Dr. Deborah Soh and remain friends & colleagues.

If you haven’t I encourage everyone to broaden their scope of who they listen to in a free form podcast that hasn’t been edited for memes or political gain. I can disagree w/ every aforementioned name but I can also find agreement on some things or simply respect our differences and agree to disagree. Again, these people aren’t perfect or flawless to the point where you can’t find nits to pick but damn it’s a lot more refreshing listening to civil debate vs what most social media has devolved into.

SIDE NOTE: Don’t know how much you listen to Rogan but he doesn’t not just have on conservative folks. He is a proud liberal and associates far more w/ the Left than the Right. Now the cancel culture & the PC overkill has pissed him off but that doesn’t mean he’s suddenly right of Attila the Hun. I take him for what he is....a dude who likes to talk to folks to learn, so he started his own podcast and it grew organically to astronomical heights. He’ll be the first to admit he says stupid stuff sometimes or has to walk stuff back. I respect that vs being a stubborn Lemming.

 

[greyhammer90]

Don’t know how much you listen to Rogan but he doesn’t not just have on conservative folks. He is a proud liberal and associates far more w/ the Left than the Right. Now the cancel culture & the PC overkill has pissed him off but that doesn’t mean he’s suddenly right of Attila the Hun.

To be clear, that's why I put him in the comedian category. He's not "right wing" just like Chappelle isn't "right wing", my point was that he says things and frequently comes down on the "other side" of topics that are supposedly oppressed by the all powerful twitter machine.

 

[Irishize]

To be clear, that's why I put him in the comedian category. He's not "right wing" just like Chappelle isn't "right wing", my point was that he says things and frequently comes down on the "other side" of topics that are supposedly oppressed by the all powerful twitter machine.

Gotcha. And we see that from comics as much, if not more; than any other group of entertainers IMO. That’s why it’s refreshing to hear a comic like Daniel Tosh. He doesn’t get too involved on Twitter and stays in his lane b/c he knows one day he’ll say the wrong thing & his career will be over...but he’ll still have a hilarious joke about it.

 

[Irishize]

The dude may be a dumbass, but at least he’s acknowledging as much. I wish the rest of the nation’s public figures would do the same & move on.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Oklahoma State coach Mike Gundy calls himself a 'dumbass' for wearing OAN T-shirt<a href="https://t.co/6pbQx0Se07">https://t.co/6pbQx0Se07</a></p>— Barrett Sallee (@BarrettSallee) <a href="https://twitter.com/BarrettSallee/status/1273628258056179717?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[NDdomer2]

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29328113/oklahoma-state-mike-gundy-accused-using-racial-slur-1989-game

 

[Irish#1]

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29328113/oklahoma-state-mike-gundy-accused-using-racial-slur-1989-game

Let me make this perfectly clear. I do not condone using that word. Wanting an apology 30 years later? Let's pile on gundy while we can. IMO Gundy will be gone within the week.

 

[ulukinatme]

I grew up in the same part of OH where you live. In 2012 I moved my family to a small town in South Carolina. It was such a quintessential, small southern town - the kind of charming place you see on TV/movies. I will never be able to explain it to people that haven't experienced the differences in the culture from the north to being in that particular southern environment. The racial tension is constant, the tension between us (damn yankees - not kidding) and the locals was constant.

My wife taught HS while we lived there. It was so bizarre for her to have kids sitting in her classroom with the same last name - one being a rich white kid living in the "uptown" area in a big beautiful antebellum home, the other being a poor black kid. They both know the history of their last names - the white kid's family owned the black kid's family.

We took in a black girl that had a pretty rough family life. She unofficially became a part of our family and that act basically drove us out of that town. You truly have no idea.

I can tell you that from my experience in small town South Carolina that flag stands for one thing and one thing only. The buzz word of "Heritage" means the heritage of keeping the black man down. Now, is it possible that people that aren't steeped in the true south see the flag as some sort of representation of southern lifestyle? That could be true, but overall that flag does represent something that shouldn't be celebrated.

Oh, and yeah, that war was about slavery...

Well, I'll say this hit me pretty good. I grew up in a rural part of northern Ohio. I lived more in the suburbs, but there was a lot of farm boys too. You would see Confederate Flags often, and it was seen as a kind of redneck/southern pride thing. I'd be lying if I said the town wasn't almost exclusively white, but some of the African American kids did play football with us and we all got along, there was no tension between the farm boys and them. This was mid 90s, so obviously prior to the more recent developments. In any case, I heard similar statements from friends that moved to North Carolina. They would see Confederate Flags lined on the side of the road and they understood it to be more of a tradition or pride thing. They only lived there a few years though before moving back.

I've never lived in the south though, I've only had the interpretation of others to go on. I believe what you say as you've lived it probably as close as any "yank" can. Sorry to hear about the trouble you went through just trying to help that poor girl out. Thanks for opening my eyes to another perspective. While I'm sure for some people it was a symbol of southern pride, it should be considered that people's motivations may not all be pure.

Just for reference, I couldn't find the original article that discussed the support of the flag in the south as an image of pride, but I did find another article that referenced the same poll I believe:

https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/public-opinion-confederate-flag-and-civil-war

A CNN/ORC poll conducted after the June 17, 2015 shooting deaths of nine black Americans in Charleston found that national perceptions of the meaning of the Confederate flag had not changed since the question was last asked in 2000. Fifty-seven percent of the country saw the flag as a symbol of Southern pride, including 66% of all whites and 75% of Southern whites. But 72% of blacks saw a symbol of racism. Blacks and whites also disagreed on the actions that should be taken regarding the Confederate flag and other monuments to the Confederacy.

If those poll numbers are true then it does further encapsulate the divide between whites and blacks on the status of the flag as I previously mentioned, but it's possible the poll is all a sham if white people in the south are voting positively to hide their bigotry. In any case, thanks again for providing another perspective and giving me first hand experience, you've changed my perception.

 

[Irish YJ]

That does not diminish the importance of Marx. His challenge of the primacy of capital is a critical point of consideration even if one “rejects” a purist form of “Marxism”. Keep pushing those rocks uphill dog.

LOL, It looked like you were happy that MacIntyre was influenced, but was unaware he later rejected all things Marx. Not uphill, it's like kicking a can off a cliff dog.

Like I said, "great thinkers" can also be wrong, or just have bad ideas. Marx is one of those guys. His prediction of capitalism giving way to communism didn't happen. In fact, just the opposite. USSR went the other way as many others did. Cuba is a failed state. North Korea is a mess. China has relied on external capitalism to fund it's Marxist state. Marx who was disgusted by child labor would be sick seeing labor realities in China. Vietnam is another that failed and had been shifting back since the 80s.

His thoughts on authoritarian pitfalls being a stage, or temporary, were wrong. He underestimated the proletariat's desire to be free and self determine. The elements of socialism in our country, and most others, aren't really core Marxist. Outside of academia and political extremes, many associate him with negative realities which goes back to original comparison between a Marx and OAN t-shirt. People see what they want to see. Some will see a Marx shirt as a sign of oppression, just like an OAN shirt.

 

[Irish YJ]

Social media IS NOT reflective of society, though.

It's reflective of your family or social circle, or of the viewpoints you select... but ultimately, the entirety of social media is an echo chamber for the extremes on both sides, and doesn't reflect the reasonable nature of most humans.

If SM was a true extension of society, Trump wouldn't be president.

I don't always agree with Clay Travis (he's a shock-jock that claims to be a democrat but somehow never criticizes Trump for anything, ever, while lamenting snowflake culture any time a leftist opens their mouth about anything; hates Notre Dame when it's necessary but sings their praises when he knows it will rile up the SEC base; etc.), but one thing he's always been on the money about is that Twitter, Facebook, etc. don't prove anything about the actual real world.

You have a racist uncle that is always saying dumb shit on Facebook... that doesn't mean every older white guy out there is racist.

You know a college student on Twitter that is trying to cancel everyone they don't agree with, at all times... that doesn't mean every college student is a snowflake.

Treating social media as an extension of reasonable society, or basing an argument in that belief, is not a good starting place IMO.

I don't really use SM like you I guess. I don't have FB at all. I have Twitter, but primarily use it to follow recruiting and sports (I don't follow any friends or family). My opinions of SM are based on studies, what I see "trending", etc., and certainly not a product of my family and friends.

I do agree it's not a full representation, but it is an extension. I see a lot of the same things in the real world, and all you have to do is flip on the news (of all political sides) to see it as well. News is not a full representation either obviously, but it to is an extension. And the impact of SM and news on the masses is something you simply can't ignore.

 

[Bluto]

LOL, It looked like you were happy that MacIntyre was influenced, but was unaware he later rejected all things Marx. Not uphill, it's like kicking a can off a cliff dog.

Like I said, "great thinkers" can also be wrong, or just have bad ideas. Marx is one of those guys. His prediction of capitalism giving way to communism didn't happen. In fact, just the opposite. USSR went the other way as many others did. Cuba is a failed state. North Korea is a mess. China has relied on external capitalism to fund it's Marxist state. Marx who was disgusted by child labor would be sick seeing labor realities in China. Vietnam is another that failed and had been shifting back since the 80s.

His thoughts on authoritarian pitfalls being a stage, or temporary, were wrong. He underestimated the proletariat's desire to be free and self determine. The elements of socialism in our country, and most others, aren't really core Marxist. Outside of academia and political extremes, many associate him with negative realities which goes back to original comparison between a Marx and OAN t-shirt. People see what they want to see. Some will see a Marx shirt as a sign of oppression, just like an OAN shirt.

Not really. The fact that Macintyre even had to consider and understand on a deep level the works of Marx to ultimately build an argument against any of his ideas simply demonstrates Marx’s impact on philosophy, politics, sociology and economics. Great thinkers can be wrong sure however, equating one of the greatest “thinkers” in human history to the Op Ed idiots at Fox much less OAN is just fucking dumb.

Ironically, one could argue that the hysteria over Marx, Socialism and Communism was the source of the original PC police in this country.

 

[Circa]

You guys really think this is about a t-shirt? You don't think this is a build up of Gundy being an idiot?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Oklahoma State football players voiced support for their teammate, Chuba Hubbard.<br><br>More ➡️ <a href="https://t.co/IGn7vdIpQP">https://t.co/IGn7vdIpQP</a> <a href="https://t.co/mCAUsvPHj5">pic.twitter.com/mCAUsvPHj5</a></p>— ESPN College Football (@ESPNCFB) <a href="https://twitter.com/ESPNCFB/status/1272688447187189760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 16, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He must be apart of the Antifa.
Why else would he do that?
Attention seeking,... little kids/grown ass idiots, will always make a mockery of civilized behavior.

I