Meltdown 2013

[wizards8507]

To be honest with you, it's probably harder to do so with playing a bunch of young guys who've never played before. I say this with zero experience in making defensive adjustments but maybe he tries to keep it as vanilla as he can. Even as great as Jaylon is, he's still a freshman and still learning the mental aspect of the game.

Then add in guys like Fox, Carlo, and Farley who just aren't very good and you're already playing behind. It's been stated several times that the losses of Kap, Te'o, and Motta are being underestimated and I believe that's because of the practices/sideline adjustments they can make on their own and voice to others. We just don't have that type in the LB corps or secondary.

This goes back to the lack of depth that ND had. Not only did we struggle to recruit defensively under Weis, the first year of BK was essentially a wash too because he was hired so late in the process. Then you have to go through that first year proving to the world that ND is on the right path.

It's one reason why rebuilding a program takes longer then 3-4 years.

The problem with this theory is that, if BK is so much better than Weis, depth and everything else should be improving year-by-year. It shouldn't be improvement, improvement, improvement, HUGE DROP OFF.

 

[PANDFAN]

If it's veterans that are still not getting it then I agree but if its guys who are seeing action for the first time then I would say that everybody learns differently and at different paces.

then we agree

 

[wizards8507]

BK was even one who mentioned following the game, that Jaylon was instructed to take x player as game planned and they made an adjustment following the 1st drive in which they were able to have him take the y player...he then said he was ahead of the learning curve...it's the fact that the other guys not getting it is what is worrisome

If it's veterans that are still not getting it then I agree but if its guys who are seeing action for the first time then I would say that everybody learns differently and at different paces.

It's not like we're the only team to ever play a true freshman. Heck, people made the same excuses when Golson started slow and he was a redshirt freshman. At some point the training wheels need to come off and guys need to stop being "young players" and just become "players."

 

[Grahambo]

The problem with this theory is that, if BK is so much better than Weis, depth and everything else should be improving year-by-year. It shouldn't be improvement, improvement, improvement, HUGE DROP OFF.

I would argue that BK has only had 2011, 2012, and this season to truly recruit. He was hired in December of 2009 and not only was fighting a NLI deadline of February, but had to spend a long time convincing people that he is the right man to lead ND and that others can trust him.

It's not like we're the only team to ever play a true freshman. Heck, people made the same excuses when Golson started slow and he was a redshirt freshman. At some point the training wheels need to come off and guys need to stop being "young players" and just become "players."

I promise you Wiz, I am one of the last people that will ever make an excuse. Through my years of training and experience with some heavy duty stuff, I just like to think I understand what's needed to get the job done. I am certainly more patient then the average fan too. That's not to say you or anybody else here aren't capable of finding solutions, I just only speak for myself.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

I personally feel that Diaco isn't getting it done...i think last year was a culmination of having a great line w/ great middle linebacker and an experienced safety....but i don't think he is a great or even good recruiter, scheme tends to suck, no creativity(i know injuries but so do every other team) in blitz packages..just overall i don't like the vanilla prevent defense

Agree with this. I know there is a huge gap between high school and high level college football. With that being sad, not knocking the intelligence players but if alabama can consistantly get freshman to play at a high level specifically in the defensive backfield, our scheme has to be WAY over the top. At the end of the day, we're playing defense, not building a space shuttle. Jaylon for example, great job this year, shaky early, but really putting it together now. Why couldn't Redfield do the same thing, fast, athletic, has to be pretty damn smart, what the hell exactly do our safteys have to do out there?

 

[Cackalacky]

Agree with this. I know there is a huge gap between high school and high level college football. With that being sad, not knocking the intelligence players but if alabama can consistantly get freshman to play at a high level specifically in the defensive backfield, our scheme has to be WAY over the top. At the end of the day, we're playing defense, not building a space shuttle. Jaylon for example, great job this year, shaky early, but really putting it together now. Why couldn't Redfield do the same thing, fast, athletic, has to be pretty damn smart, what the hell exactly do our safteys have to do out there?

This drives me crazy. Alabama has 7,....SEVEN..... 5th year seniors contributing this season. Their freshmen who are contributing don't get a lot of touches each game (except in blowouts), or unless your name is Drake who dominated on the scout team against the 1st team Defense. He moved up the depth chart (due to PRACTICES) over other highly rated RBs. I dont think Tenpenny has even seen the field this year.

We are not seeing that kind of movement from our freshmen... wait we are
Jaylon ( necessity)
Butler
Luke
Hunter
Robinson
Folston
Elmer....

 

[IrishLion]

This drives me crazy. Alabama has 7,....SEVEN..... 5th year seniors contributing this season. Their freshmen who are contributing don't get a lot of touches each game (except in blowouts), or unless your name is Drake who dominated on the scout team against the 1st team Defense. He moved up the depth chart (due to PRACTICES) over other highly rated RBs. I dont think Tenpenny has even seen the field this year.

We are not seeing that kind of movement from our freshmen... wait we are
Jaylon ( necessity)
Butler
Luke
Hunter ?
Robinson
Folston
Elmer....

Fuller (maybe who you meant above)
Rochelle

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

This drives me crazy. Alabama has 7,....SEVEN..... 5th year seniors contributing this season. Their freshmen who are contributing don't get a lot of touches each game (except in blowouts), or unless your name is Drake who dominated on the scout team against the 1st team Defense. He moved up the depth chart (due to PRACTICES) over other highly rated RBs. I dont think Tenpenny has even seen the field this year.

We are not seeing that kind of movement from our freshmen... wait we are
Jaylon ( necessity)
Butler
Luke
Hunter
Robinson
Folston
Elmer....

Poor job of expressing what I was wanting to get across. My point was basically about Redfield, what is so complex that puts him so far behind Farley? everything that I have personally read is, the scheme is to this the scheme is to that for Max right now, what the hell does he have to do? Farley can Line us correctly but whiff on tackles? thats exceptable? The defense looks like hell if you ask me, looks pretty simple to me, bend, bend, bend, oh shucks! they scored. Folston, if im Folston im really sratching my head " so I blow up navy and don't get any love against Pitt?" what the hell is that?

 

[phork]

I think the disappoint stems from that one sentence:

Where does that leave us? Pretty much where most of us initially thought we’d be.

Special teams should be working right now. The defense, despite injuries is regressing, the offense is a hot mess. Despite the "athletes" on the team the next man in seems to be a farce. The very fact that if Rees goes down ND will lose every remaining game. The same Rees that everyone chastises. The same Rees thats been here for 4 years and has been solidly consistent. Consistent with turn overs, consistent with poor clock management.

So whos fault is it? I keep hearing the same things over and over that there is nothing to see here. The program is in great shape.

But here we are again, setting our expectations at 8-4 or worse. There is no meltdown. Just more of the same. Yah we've upgraded from Weis, thats not saying much.

 

[ickythump1225]

No, it ain't easy to be Bama. Or other teams consistantly at the top.

We haven't won jack and the rest of the country no longer respects us. It's getting EASIER to be us. Nobody cares anymore about classroom performance. Haven't won a decent bowl game since 1993!!

ND is the LEAST of other teams worries.


Finally, a board where I can be angry in peace.

I'm so glad your dreams are coming true...

 

[Cackalacky]

Poor job of expressing what I was wanting to get across. My point was basically about Redfield, what is so complex that puts him so far behind Farley? everything that I have personally read is, the scheme is to this the scheme is to that for Max right now, what the hell does he have to do? Farley can Line us correctly but whiff on tackles? thats exceptable? The defense looks like hell if you ask me, looks pretty simple to me, bend, bend, bend, oh shucks! they scored. Folston, if im Folston im really sratching my head " so I blow up navy and don't get any love against Pitt?" what the hell is that?

And this has been mucked over ad nauseum by a few other posters and it is annoying. And then to try and take that and extrapolate it to Alabama is absurd.

I like to think of it in terms of UGA or LSUs defense. Both are young and highly inexperienced. They are so bad they make BIg 12 defense look stout. . But they have excellent offenses to lean on. What happened when UGA lost Gurshal and their WR core? Losses. What happened when Alabama broke LSU and lost their offensive capabilities? Losses. So we don't have that offense to lean on and can afford to have our Defensive QBs making freshmen mistakes. That's not me that's BK and Diaco saying that.

 

[ickythump1225]

But...they climb out of it. We seem to be stuck in a lull.

If this is the premier university and program...why the hell can't we climb out of mediocrity?

Bama is a perfect example...a few bad years, now won 3 out of the last 4 and probably gonna win their 4th (un-fvcking-believable, BTW)

Well then make peace with reality or go cheer for 'Bama. I mean my god sometimes I think you actually enjoy us losing because then you can seem like some sort of prophet or something. I personally don't believe we can ever go on a run like Alabama and maybe not even Florida when they won 2 out of 3 because we don't do a lot of things those universities do (which involves a lot of...ehm "creativity" with the rules) but sitting around always whining and complaining isn't going to do anything. Despite your claims to the otherwise I believe deep down in my heart that even if we were in Alabama's position you'd still be on here with your overly pessimistic "the sky is falling" routine.

It's bad enough to lose to a scrub team like Pitt but to have to come on here and read all of the garbage from doomsday prophets on here is like salt in the wounds. I have to consciously avoid this place after losses or wins that weren't by a large enough margin to satiate the bloodlust of some on here because it's like a collection of bedwetters on here fretting about everything and making ridiculous threads that scapegoat the Strength and Conditioning Coach (!).

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

And this has been mucked over ad nasea by a few other posters and it is annoying. And then to try and take that and extrapolate it to Alabama is absurd.

I like to think of it in terms of UGA or LSUs defense. Both are young and highly inexperienced. They are so bad they make BIg 12 defense look stout. . But they have excellent offenses to lean on. What happened when UGA lost Gurshal and their WR core? Losses. What happened when Alabama broke LSU lost their offensive capabilities? Losses. So we don't have that offense to lean on and can affix to have our Defensive QBs making freshmen mistakes. That's not me that's BK and Diaco saying that.

so in your opinion, just roll with what we've got and wait for next year? do you have any concerns? Not arguing, those are sincere questions.

 

[Cackalacky]

so in your opinion, just roll with what we've got and wait for next year? do you have any concerns? Not arguing, those are sincere questions.

What I think has no bearing on who plays.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

The perceived fan "meltdown" is between two minority, although nauseating and vocal parties right now:

A) fans who want to trash the team, players and coaches in an unprofessional manner after losses or close wins

VS

B) fans who want to powder the teams butt and scream "LEAVE ND ALONE!" anytime the program is brought into question after a loss or close win

 

[palinurus]

I HATE to say it because I really like Rees, but I agree. Some games, like ASU or MSU or Purdue, Tommy will be the guy who does what it takes to win, even against a good team. Other games, like in all of our 3 losses, especially OU and Pitt (scUM was partially on Tommy but more on the defense), he will beat himself with turnovers. That's just Tommy. I really hoped he would be better than that this year, but he is what he is.

True, but he's not just inconsistent from game to game; he's inconsistent from play to play. He had some beauties the other night; but he had more real beauties. Blame the coaches for putting too much on him, instead of making him an accent piece. They try to make him a college version of Philip Rivers when he's really a college version of (last year's) Joe Flacco. Rough analogy, but you get the point.

 

[palinurus]

I wish Hansen and others would actually ASK the "unanswered questions" he puts in the article. Those guys (the journalists) lose their cajones when they're actually in the ROOM with BK, which is why a lot of the questions will stay unanswered.

This is a great point; most sportswriters -- and ND guys are better than many -- are in fear of asking real questions.

A guy actually asked Kelly in last week's mid-week conference (in approximate words) why ND struggles to beat the Navys of the world by more than the Las Vegas line.

To his credit, Kelly didn't get all sanctimonious on him. He said, sort of smiling, "so you're upset that we don't beat the spread?"

Then he went on to give his "it's tough to win college games" answer that I find silly.

But these guys should press him, not be jerks but be tough. And they don't. Of course, they aren't the lap dogs they have in Columbus and Tuscaloosa.

 

[philipm31]

The same Bama that spent '97-'06 getting hammered by everyone, firing coaches, embarrassing scandals, NCAA violations and a 38-48 record over that decade? Is that the type of consistency you are talking about on top?

Some of you dudes have a warped view of how college football has actually worked over history. The "teams on top" are never there forever. We went through a major slump and now have a great trajectory. We will be a damn good team next year, but this year we were riddled with injuries, defections and bad luck. No reason to step out onto a ledge.

That was a ten year stretch for Bama. ND has not won a title in 25 years and counting, had not played for a SHOT at the MNC in 20, and has not had back to back double digit win seasons since Weis' second year.

Just saying that Pat may be a little more on the ball in this line of thinking.

 

[philipm31]

Ton of injuries , loss of a once in generation player , A system quarterback that's in the wrong system and some head scratching play calling on both sides of ball . Other than the play calling I think we performed like I expected us too .

I love EG but he is NOT a once in a generation talent. Someone like Rocket Ismail is a once in a generation type of talent...at the college level, at least.

He was the most unstoppable player ND has had, probably ever.

 

[philipm31]

I wish Hansen and others would actually ASK the "unanswered questions" he puts in the article. Those guys (the journalists) lose their cajones when they're actually in the ROOM with BK, which is why a lot of the questions will stay unanswered.



I think that's part of the problem. I don't want a Notre Dame team where we have to accept a maybe-barely top-25 finish just because our QB1 got suspended. "Next man in," right? Tommy is our best option right now, and that's a big problem. Also, Tommy Rees didn't give up 41 to Michigan, 24 to Purdue, 34 to ASU, 34 to Navy (!), and 28 to Pitt (!), our defense did.

With Everett Golson, we only managed to score more than 30 points three times last season, so this notion (not necessarily from you, but others) that he would have been able to run up the score like the 2007 Patriots baffles me.



Using that theory, we all might as well quit talking about sports all together. LeBron James is a hell of a lot better at basketball than me, but I'm still going to say "LeBron sucked last night" if he shoots 2-of-15 for 5 points. Most baseball fans could never in a million years get a base hit in the Major Leagues, but Pete Kozma stinks and they'll continue to say so. Just because the coaches are generally smarter or better at coaching than the average fan, doesn't mean the fan can't discuss and disagree with what they're doing. That's the whole point of sites like IE.

Don't bash Kozma!! That is for the Cardinals fans to do....and yes, he DOES suck as a hitter.

 

[philipm31]

I wish Hansen and others would actually ASK the "unanswered questions" he puts in the article. Those guys (the journalists) lose their cajones when they're actually in the ROOM with BK, which is why a lot of the questions will stay unanswered.



I think that's part of the problem. I don't want a Notre Dame team where we have to accept a maybe-barely top-25 finish just because our QB1 got suspended. "Next man in," right? Tommy is our best option right now, and that's a big problem. Also, Tommy Rees didn't give up 41 to Michigan, 24 to Purdue, 34 to ASU, 34 to Navy (!), and 28 to Pitt (!), our defense did.

With Everett Golson, we only managed to score more than 30 points three times last season, so this notion (not necessarily from you, but others) that he would have been able to run up the score like the 2007 Patriots baffles me.



Using that theory, we all might as well quit talking about sports all together. LeBron James is a hell of a lot better at basketball than me, but I'm still going to say "LeBron sucked last night" if he shoots 2-of-15 for 5 points. Most baseball fans could never in a million years get a base hit in the Major Leagues, but Pete Kozma stinks and they'll continue to say so. Just because the coaches are generally smarter or better at coaching than the average fan, doesn't mean the fan can't discuss and disagree with what they're doing. That's the whole point of sites like IE.

I agree that most journalists do not want to ask the hard questions, but they are still closer to the situation than we all are...and I was just pointing out that the lack of consistency is what is the most worrisome for ND fans.

And if I remember correctly, many ppl on here were lauding Tommy's 18 starts and 14-4 record, propping up the idea that ND would nary skip a beat with such an experienced QB at the helm..... #JustSaying

 

[Grahambo]

That was a ten year stretch for Bama. ND has not won a title in 25 years and counting, had not played for a SHOT at the MNC in 20, and has not had back to back double digit win seasons since Weis' second year.

Just saying that Pat may be a little more on the ball in this line of thinking.

And until '09, Alabama didn't win a title since '92. They're also doing all of this under easier circumstances compared to ND. 'Bama has also had several NCAA violations and quite a few wins vacated due to this violations.

As for irishpat and the rest on this site: There are two sides to a story and then there's the truth.

 

[ickythump1225]

The perceived fan "meltdown" is between two minority, although nauseating and vocal parties right now:

A) fans who want to trash the team, players and coaches in an unprofessional manner after losses or close wins

VS

B) fans who want to powder the teams butt and scream "LEAVE ND ALONE!" anytime the program is brought into question after a loss or close win

Does every lose warrant this overreactionary "soul searching" that seems to go on every time we either lose or win by less than two touchdowns? I'm not saying you do that or anything but man it seems like anytime there's a close game some variant of "Is BK overrated?" "Fire Longo." "Diaco sucks." "Is ND in a death spiral?" etc. thread gets created. I just feel like we overreact to everything. Not everything deserves this panic mode. Obviously at 7-3 ND is not perfect but I feel like certain posters on here lack perspective or the ability to make calm, rational, measured posts. Honestly I read a lot of posts on here in the voice of a dramatic Emo kid ready to slit their wrists because that is how they come across.

On a side note no other program, other than Alabama or Oregon, has a better record than ND over the last 31 or 32 games. So there is some cause for optimism through the "dark abyss." It's not all about being sunshine and rainbows, it's about admitting there are some positive things going on for the program right now but some are too stubborn to see that.

 

[ickythump1225]

I love EG but he is NOT a once in a generation talent. Someone like Rocket Ismail is a once in a generation type of talent...at the college level, at least.

He was the most unstoppable player ND has had, probably ever.

Don't think he's talking about EG...I'm pretty sure he's talking about Manti Te'o.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

What I think has no bearing on who plays.

So...I'm absurd and you're not willing to give your opinion? Awesome. Got it.

 

[Cackalacky]

So...I'm absurd and you're not willing to give your opinion? Awesome. Got it.

My opinion is well documented and I am not wasting time giving it again.

 

[Booslum31]

How about Florida State from 2001-2009, with all of their advantages and sub-division wins?

7-6 records in 06, 07, and 09. Sustained winning is hard.

Look at Miami last year verses this year...turnarounds can be quick.

My major disappointments:

1. The defense not playing inspired football
2. Not being able to pound the ball on third and 1 or 2 yards
3. Special teams.
4. Losing to a bunch of 2 and 3 stars...Pitt
5. "Coaching up"...not really seeing it
6. Why the F can't we keep five stars?
7. All the Man crushes on Diaco puzzels me
8. Just noticed this year how dull our televised games are in comparison to ESPN
9. How slow we have been to play talent ahead of experience
10. I bet my entire bank that we would beat Pitt....%$@&!

 

[PANDFAN]

My opinion is well documented and I am not wasting time giving it again.

but what if he is asking about the slacky discount

 

[scUM Hater]

I love EG but he is NOT a once in a generation talent. Someone like Rocket Ismail is a once in a generation type of talent...at the college level, at least.

He was the most unstoppable player ND has had, probably ever.

"Touchdown" Timmy Brown was pretty damn good himself.

 

[ulukinatme]

Look at Miami last year verses this year...turnarounds can be quick.

To be fair, Miami isn't really turned around quite yet. People got excited when they started fast out of the gate, but the real Miami is showing it's true form late in the season. Yeah, Duke got hurt, but Miami didn't play ANYBODY until their last two back to back losses. The toughest team they played was a Florida team that was ranked #12 at the time, but has fallen to 4-5 on the season.