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Yeah, that's why he's in the top 10 on all NFL draft big boards. Because he's "average".
Manti vs Manziel
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Yeah, that's why he's in the top 10 on all NFL draft big boards. Because he's "average".
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Bogtrotter07
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The reason that Manti isn't the unanimous Heisman award winner is that many voters have slanted perspectives like yours.
Dat was great; but look at the defense he played with. See every other intelligent discussion of defensive statistics around here.
Bringing up Rudy shows your true colors. If we treated you like you treated Manti in this post we would call you a Catholic hating, bigot, redneck from Texas. Sorry I forgot ignorant. And inbred. Aren't you glad we aren't like you?
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Emcee77
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That's sort of a mischaracterization. "The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity. Winners epitomize great ability combined with diligence, perseverance, and hard work."
Heisman Trust Mission Statement
The Heisman is not meant to go to the best player in college football in a particular year. The Maxwell and Walter Camp awards go to the best player. The Heisman goes to an outstanding player whose performance exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity. This is why it often goes to a player whose team has had a great season ... team success is one way of "standing out." As for the part about the player "whose performance exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity" ... are you kidding me? Manti is the definition of excellence with integrity. His hard work and perseverance over the last four years are a huge part of why we are in the national championship game. You are wrong to say that the Heisman is not meant to recognize that.
You can argue that he is "an average LB" if you want, but the argument is ludicrous ... several of our opponents have said that they specifically gameplanned to minimize his effect on the game. Manti is a dominant player on the best team in the country. He exemplifies diligence, leadership and integrity. Winners epitomize great ability combined with diligence, perseverance, and hard work. If Manti doesn't win the Heisman, then the Heisman should update its criteria, because it will be clear that the criteria are merely nominal.
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IrishKel93
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ulukinatme
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Looking like a foregone conclusion. Stiffarmtrophy.com is showing a considerable lead for Manziel at this point with 20% of the votes accounted for. They're calling it at this point. I'm sure there will be some hold outs that will say "20% and they say it's over?" but it looks like any ground that Manti made up seems to have been squelched. Also, it's hard to argue that the site has been 10/10 on past predictions and they take into account regional bias on many of the uncounted votes, which helps solidify their position.
It doesn't really change anything for me personally, I feel the same way about the award that I did 4 weeks ago. This reinforces that the Heisman has become garbage, with a trend of being awarded to the most talked about offensive players in the 2nd half of the season. The integrity line is forgotten, they might as well stricken it from the description. If it's between Manziel and Manti, I think it still should have gone to Manti. If you're talking strickly the most outstanding player this year I think Lee, Barner, or a number of other players were more impressive. Manti is still the most decorated player in college football history and will be playing for the crystal ball, doesn't really get better than that.
It doesn't really change anything for me personally, I feel the same way about the award that I did 4 weeks ago. This reinforces that the Heisman has become garbage, with a trend of being awarded to the most talked about offensive players in the 2nd half of the season. The integrity line is forgotten, they might as well stricken it from the description. If it's between Manziel and Manti, I think it still should have gone to Manti. If you're talking strickly the most outstanding player this year I think Lee, Barner, or a number of other players were more impressive. Manti is still the most decorated player in college football history and will be playing for the crystal ball, doesn't really get better than that.
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Bogtrotter07
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Glad the Irish don't regard Stiffarm, or any other such source; otherwise this teams record would reflect either of the past admins average record, and we wouldn't even be having these conversation.
Kingbish01
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Why did 9 LB's go before him in the '99 draft??
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You're spot on. Desmond Howard (seriously) brought this up on the radio yesterday that WAY too many people have Heisman votes... and accordingly, it's become a popularity award where the most recent guy to have a big performance wins.
Players who start off as front runners almost always get unduly criticized for mistakes. Players who don't almost always have their bad moments glossed over. The regionality of the voting lends to a crazy amount of bias within given regions for specific candidates... so multiple candidates from the same team/region have far less of a shot than candidates who are the only guy from their part of the country.
I promise you Manziel carried his region + the southeast with darn near 100% of the first place votes... and I also promise you Manti was left completely off of most of their ballots. Manziel was always going to win and it was never going to be close.
It's a pretty great year though when your biggest complaint is that your LINEBACKER is going to finish second in Heisman voting.
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Bogtrotter07
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Why compare a linebacker from '98 to present. Dude that was like fourteen years ago!
UHCoogs
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There is no point in arguing with Aggie they are a delusional fan base. They ridiculed Sumlin when he coached at UH that this offense would never work in a "real" conference. Now He is the second coming.
Manziel is getting all the attention because He plays in the over hyped SEC. As stated above when he played LSU and Florida He was shut down in the second half.
I still don't think He is the best offensive player in the country. The QB, RB at Oregon were just as good and Marquis Lee USC and Austin WV were just as good if not better.
Manziel is getting all the attention because He plays in the over hyped SEC. As stated above when he played LSU and Florida He was shut down in the second half.
I still don't think He is the best offensive player in the country. The QB, RB at Oregon were just as good and Marquis Lee USC and Austin WV were just as good if not better.
Kingbish01
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I agree why compare LB's from 15 years apart. Getme posted Dat's stats compared to Manti. If he was so great why did nine LB's go before him in the draft?? I don't think 9 players go before Manti.
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HMMM...
A&M also had 3 losses that year, and gave up 50% more points per game than this Notre Dame team... OMG LOOK AT TEH STATZ THO!!! You're probably still one of those people that believes in RBIs...
I'm sure I can find you a bunch of linebackers on crappy teams with "stats"... you have to be an absolute fool to think that stats are any indicator of how "outstanding" a college football player is. The proof is in the pudding... Manti won the DPOY award with near 80% of the vote.. one of the largest margins of victories ever. He's in the projected top 10 for NFL draft.
All arguments that Manti is "average" are simply ridiculous. It's funny because real stats indicate that Manziel isn't even the best FRESHMAN QB much less one of the top 10 overall in the country.... much less the most outstanding player in all of CFB.
ulukinatme
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I understand that, but it's hard to argue a 10/10 prediction history. Granted, they're calling it earlier than some of the previous votes, but they said this one isn't as close as the '09 lineup either. I'm putting a fork in it at this point, very proud of how Manti has carried himself and our team. If something crazy were to happen where he came back to win it, I would be surprised and it would change my opinion on everything, but at this point I just have to shrug and say "The Heisman is who we thought they were!"
Kind of funny...I think back in mid October or earlier I had a feeling that if ND somehow found it's way to go undefeated, 12-0, there would be too much noise for Te'o not to win. Out of no where A&M knocks off Alabama, Manziel gets jumped to the top of the list and he never played a meaningful team with a pulse again after that. Heres hoping the Heisman slump hits him hard when they face Oklahoma, those guys deserve the win.
phgreek
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good on ya...was just about to respond
comparisons need to a) be apples to apples (scheme wise); b) within the same decade; c) done by someone who knows football
its funny how ND gets tarred with the "living in the past" deal...I mean geez, 1998. in terms of football generations, thats almost 3...that alone screams invalid!
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johnnykillz
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There's always an outlier.
GoldenIsThyFame
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PraetorianND
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Who is that kid on the right?
Irish Houstonian
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Have to agree. I tended to like A&M b/c of the way they stuck it to UTexas by leaving the Big12, and since they're so close to Houston. And, when A&M sucked their fans seemed pretty reasonable.
But something about this year has stirred up some homerism around here, the likes of which I've never seen before...Not quite "Lets-Claim-50-Nat'l Champs-and-Tea-Bag-Some-LSU Fans", but pretty darn close.
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Grahambo
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Sigh..here we go again..two can play the compare game.
2011 - Case Keenum (Coach Kevin Sumlin) Team record: 13-1 Won Cotton Bowl
428 - 603 5,631 yards 48 TDs 5 INT Pass Rating: 174.0
57 rush attempts 35 yards 3 Rush TDs
Total yardage: 5,666 yards 51 Total TDs
2012 Johnny Manziel (Coach Kevin Sumlin) Team Record: 10-2 Cotton Bowl - TBD
273 - 400 3419 yards 24 TDs Passer rating: 155.9
184 rush attempts 1181 yards 19 TDs
Total yardage: 4600 yards 43 TDs
1 arrest
Also, Jordan Lynch had a better statistical season then Johnny Football.
Read what the Heisman Trophy says and then if you truly and unbiasedly can state that JFF is deserving to win it, then you really don't understand statistical breakdowns nor understand what integrity means.
For sh!ts and giggles:
Johnny Manziel when the final score was between 0 - 7 (just so we are clear 0 means you lost...twice):
117 - 183 1288 63.9 6 TDs 6 Ints Sacked: 15 times Passer Rating: 127.3
91 rushes 489 yards 5 TDs
Oh, and still 1 arrest.
Many on here have accepted the fact that JFF will win the Heisman but we also accept the fact that it is purely an offensive award with an attached popularity contest. Johnny Football will not become some great phenom as A&M fans believe. He is Denard Robinson 2.0 not Cam Newton.
2011 - Case Keenum (Coach Kevin Sumlin) Team record: 13-1 Won Cotton Bowl
428 - 603 5,631 yards 48 TDs 5 INT Pass Rating: 174.0
57 rush attempts 35 yards 3 Rush TDs
Total yardage: 5,666 yards 51 Total TDs
2012 Johnny Manziel (Coach Kevin Sumlin) Team Record: 10-2 Cotton Bowl - TBD
273 - 400 3419 yards 24 TDs Passer rating: 155.9
184 rush attempts 1181 yards 19 TDs
Total yardage: 4600 yards 43 TDs
1 arrest
Also, Jordan Lynch had a better statistical season then Johnny Football.
Read what the Heisman Trophy says and then if you truly and unbiasedly can state that JFF is deserving to win it, then you really don't understand statistical breakdowns nor understand what integrity means.
For sh!ts and giggles:
Johnny Manziel when the final score was between 0 - 7 (just so we are clear 0 means you lost...twice):
117 - 183 1288 63.9 6 TDs 6 Ints Sacked: 15 times Passer Rating: 127.3
91 rushes 489 yards 5 TDs
Oh, and still 1 arrest.
Many on here have accepted the fact that JFF will win the Heisman but we also accept the fact that it is purely an offensive award with an attached popularity contest. Johnny Football will not become some great phenom as A&M fans believe. He is Denard Robinson 2.0 not Cam Newton.
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UHCoogs
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Don't know how long you have been around them but believe me they are not that reasonable. They are about the same claiming titles etc.
See how there title claims changed after joining SEC.
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PraetorianND
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Ya I agree. I always used to root for A&M to beat Texas on Thanksgiving every year. Now, I will never root for A&M to win another game. I'm actually astonished by their fan base. It's one thing to support your candidate and another to say another candidate should basically still be back playing pee wee football somewhere. it's just madness. No respect.
The funny thing is we have a thread Manti v. Manziel where we talk about the differences, pluses, and minuses of each candidate. They have threads that completely degrade every single thing Manti has done and are completely unable to acknowledge his talent and accomplishments.
I would feel like an idiot saying Manziel isn't one of the top 10 QBs in the country because it's blatantly not true. I would love an A&M fan to come in here and give me a list of the 10 linebackers that are better than Manti right now.
Winning a few games, moving to the SEC, and having a Heisman candidate has made A&M fans insufferable.
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Grahambo
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Don't know how long you have been around them but believe me they are not that reasonable. They are about the same claiming titles etc.
See how there title claims changed after joining SEC.
Texas A&M's claims it has won two more football national titles
"In 1919, Harvard and Illinois were regarded as the national champions among the various rankings. However, the Aggies, who finished 10-0 that season, are making their claim based on the National Championship Foundation, which was formed in 1980 and voted on past champions. The group awarded A&M a share of the title in a three-way tie with Notre Dame and Harvard.
Seem silly? The same National Championship Foundation awarded four schools a national title in 1993 and five schools in 1991.
In 1927, the Aggies went 8-0-1, and Notre Dame and Pittsburgh were regarded as splitting the national championship. However, the Aggies were retroactively crowned No. 1 by a mathematical ranking system developed in 1935 that ran the results from the 1929 season.
Claiming a title before the emergence of the AP poll in 1936 and the coaches poll in 1950 has become a cottage industry. There are numerous cases of schools "winning" a title based on retroactive voting or some mathematical formula developed long after the games were played.
That creates confusion among what is believed by schools and what is regarding by historians of college football.
For example, Alabama has won nine national titles since 1961 by either finishing first in one of the polls or winning the BCS title game. However, the school also is claiming five championships prior to that time. In one of those years, 1941, Alabama finished the regular season 8-2 and No. 20 in the AP poll before beating Texas A&M in the Cotton Bowl."
Irish Houstonian
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Don't know how long you have been around them but believe me they are not that reasonable. They are about the same claiming titles etc.
See how there title claims changed after joining SEC.
I don't think there's any fanbase you can paint as entirely and patently "unreasonable". There are a few Aggies that are ok -- I swear, I've met them.
UHCoogs
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Also in a majority of those games Keenum was out by the start of the 3rd quarter.
UHCoogs
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I guess there are a few
grin:
DSully1995
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the thing with Manziel is he has a definite Heisman Moment, but does the rest of his season stack up to it? Notably in the other big games?
FightingIrishLover7
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Apparently the only things from Texas are steers and irrational fans..
Looks like Texas A & M fans are butthurt and feeling the effects of being Teowned this morning.
You're not the only ones. Look on the bright spot. At least you didn't have to play him and got dominated physically. Of course then then they wouldn't be so ignorant about him.
You're not the only ones. Look on the bright spot. At least you didn't have to play him and got dominated physically. Of course then then they wouldn't be so ignorant about him.
woolybug25
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Here is a graph from ESPN that tracked each player through the year and where they stood in the Heisman consideration. It's a good illustration to show that Manziel wouldn't even be in the race if it werent for the one game against Bama. He didn't enter into the conversation until week 7, and made 90% of his move in week 11 (against Bama).
It's a sham...
It's a sham...