Help with a Notre Dame hater

[Kaneyoufeelit]

There was a really good discussion the other day about how Notre Dame will consider students who fall below the GPA or SAT 'requirements' of purely academic students for a number of reasons.

Musicians, artists, athletes, differing backgrounds, etc., all add to a more diverse and interesting school.

I've heard Swarbrick make this exact argument. He is in favor of full scholarships for those other students, as well.

 

[connor_in]

Dude, just print out the entire IM thread!!!!!

 

[Bogtrotter07]

This conversation may not be about any data or fact.

Notre Dame is unique. It has its own classes of haters based upon some very specific primary beliefs.

Anti-Catholic. (Clan and Fundamental Christians.)
Pro-Catholic. (Some fundamental Catholics see the school as iconoclast.)
Pro-clan.
Anti-integration.
Anti-lace curtain Irish. (Some people even of strong Irish ancestry see this as a classist school.)
Pro-contrarians. (Some contrarians want to root for the underdog so badly that they transfer all of their hate to the over-dog. Not so much of late, but if college football had an alpha dog, he would have worn an interlocking ND.)

These are a lot of powerful reasons for someone to hate ND. I have found few exceptions to rule, once a hater, always a hater. It is in some ways worse than talking religion or politics. Good luck though. Remember me when you realize no amount of logic is going to help the situation, and crack a smile!

There's no need to play devil's advocate here. The guy ACamp needs to address is a salty UNC grad who thinks ND is involved in the same type of academic fraud that his alma mater recently got smacked for. That is definitely not the case.

In psychology and other disciplines this is called projection. It should be your first clue logic will not work.

 

[JughedJones]

I've heard Swarbrick make this exact argument. He is in favor of full scholarships for those other students, as well.

Word. On the other hand, I have a friend whose daughter just applied to Notre Dame asking for a academic schollie. 4.0 (higher when you include college level classes she's taken) GPA and through the roof SAT.

Denied, but Stanford is still considering her.

They're a funny bunch of birds.

 

[wizards8507]

I've heard Swarbrick make this exact argument. He is in favor of full scholarships for those other students, as well.

The counter argument there is that ND doesn't give "merit-based" scholarships, period. The logic being that you have to be "that good" just to get into ND in the first place. ND meets 100% of your demonstrated financial need. They could, theoretically, apply the same standard to athletes. We'd continue to get underprivleged kids because their "demonstrated need" is likely to be 100% of the cost of attendance anyways. The kids who benefit from athletic scholarships at ND are the ones who CAN afford it but don't have to.

 

[ACamp1900]

Dude, just print out the entire IM thread!!!!!

Ha, I actually offered he look into it... "one side case doesn't make a rule"...

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

The counter argument there is that ND doesn't give "merit-based" scholarships, period. The logic being that you have to be "that good" just to get into ND in the first place. ND meets 100% of your demonstrated financial need. They could, theoretically, apply the same standard to athletes. We'd continue to get underprivleged kids because their "demonstrated need" is likely to be 100% of the cost of attendance anyways. The kids who benefit from athletic scholarships at ND are the ones who CAN afford it but don't have to.

Right, and remember that Swarbrick doesn't control admissions. But, he is all about branding and he sees offering scholarships to highly talented individuals as a way to extend ND's reach and brand.

 

[NDBoiler]

Word. On the other hand, I have a friend whose daughter just applied to Notre Dame asking for a academic schollie. 4.0 (higher when you include college level classes she's taken) GPA and through the roof SAT.

Denied, but Stanford is still considering her.

They're a funny bunch of birds.

Please dont't take this the wrong way, but this actually makes me feel better! In high school I had a 3.5 GPA, 1250 SAT (old scoring style), had a sister currently attending ND (and then graduated), had a dad as an ND alumni, and still didn't get in. It sure as hell ain't easy to get in, and they are not the same as "everyone else".

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Word. On the other hand, I have a friend whose daughter just applied to Notre Dame asking for a academic schollie. 4.0 (higher when you include college level classes she's taken) GPA and through the roof SAT.

Denied, but Stanford is still considering her.

They're a funny bunch of birds.

Yeah, I know a bunch of people that had the horse power and have made good lives that wanted to go to ND, but were denied. Best example is my nieces husband, a famously successful orthopedic surgeon, with patents for devices to his name, who walked into a partnership at a large metro practice out of his fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic. His family still hates ND. They showed me the correspondence. I thought it a little off putting, but what do I know. (I think I should have added anti-Malloy sentiment to my original list.)

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

All fair points, but you can't make blanket statements. If you say "ND doesn't do it at all," you're going to lose the argument because it's just not true and the other guy can probably prove it's not true. If you say "ND does it, but not as bad," you're still going to lose the argument because a guy like this will refuse to accept a nuanced argument.

I want to see what you got on this.

 

[IrishLax]

All fair points, but you can't make blanket statements. If you say "ND doesn't do it at all," you're going to lose the argument because it's just not true and the other guy can probably prove it's not true. If you say "ND does it, but not as bad," you're still going to lose the argument because a guy like this will refuse to accept a nuanced argument.

You keep honing in on one tiny part of the dude's diatribe. Literally every school makes exceptions, including Stanford, Harvard, etc. when it comes to athletes. So you don't even put this on the table. You're right, to what levels exceptions are made at each place is all nuanced and pretty useless to debate.

What everyone is contesting is the don't go to class/can't read or write/dumb as rocks/do no work/etc. bullshit. The Adam Sargent article I linked from SI probably does the best job of any in showing how much emphasis is actually placed on athletes going through the full rigors of ND, which is in stark contrast to UNC where the admin and professors work to commit academic fraud on behalf of athletes to keep them eligible.

 

[wizards8507]

You keep honing in on one tiny part of the dude's diatribe. Literally every school makes exceptions, including Stanford, Harvard, etc. when it comes to athletes. So you don't even put this on the table. You're right, to what levels exceptions are made at each place is all nuanced and pretty useless to debate.

I think that's all I was trying to say. I'm not saying ND is Alabama or worse than LSU or any of that. I'm saying for the purposes of arguing with the hater, i.e. what this thread was about in the first place, the argument can't be won. He's determined to hate ND and the only way to sway him would be if ND did literally NONE of that kind of stuff, which is not true.

What everyone is contesting is the don't go to class/can't read or write/dumb as rocks/do no work/etc. bullshit. The Adam Sargent article I linked from SI probably does the best job of any in showing how much emphasis is actually placed on athletes going through the full rigors of ND, which is in stark contrast to UNC where the admin and professors work to commit academic fraud on behalf of athletes to keep them eligible.

Okay I've already gotten plenty of flak from this but I can't be the only alum who wants to be honest with himself and admit that things like "football classes" exist. Or that "tutoring" might not always be quite as simple as "tutoring."

I am not saying that ND has illiterate kids or no-show classes or institutional fraud. I AM saying that ND students and ND student-athletes operate under a different set of rules.

 

[Irish#1]

tried, I seriously tried to 'talk' to this guy for an hour... I'm at the point where I'm a liar, making it all up, or "you are so ND centric you don't even realize the truth of the mattter"

Got me pretty upset, I would love to give him a shit burger to eat at this point... but 'saying it' won't do anything.

I only read the first handful of posts, but there is no way you will ever convince this guy regardless of the number articles you show him. I would simply ignore the guy.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

All fair points, but you can't make blanket statements. If you say "ND doesn't do it at all," you're going to lose the argument because it's just not true and the other guy can probably prove it's not true. If you say "ND does it, but not as bad," you're still going to lose the argument because a guy like this will refuse to accept a nuanced argument.

You obviously can't say "ND doesn't do it at all" without defining what "it" is. If we're talking about accepting students with exceptional extra-curricular skills that couldn't get in on academic merit alone, then he's right-- everyone really does do "it", including Stanford, ND and the entire Ivy League.

But if we're talking about UNC-level academic fraud-- that assertion is pretty easy to falsify. Start with a data set that he'll agree is objective-- like the GSR figures-- and argue from there. If everyone is doing it, how are schools like ND, Stanford and Duke-- institutions that not coincidentally have excellent academic reputations-- graduating so many more football players than OU, FSU and SCar? Do they just not care? Surely they must realize that the academic angle is potent recruiting tool.

And how do we explain schools like UNC, Cal, and USC? Independent of football, those are all very high quality academic institutions, yet their football players graduate at a far lower rate than the student body generally. Are they simply less competent cheaters than Stanford, ND and Duke?

The most reasonable inference from the GSR data set is that there are serious differences in practice among Division I schools, and not, as he asserts, that they all utilize the same practices with varying degrees of competence and luck. Extrapolating further from that inference, it's pretty clear that (1) graduating a strong % of football players requires a set of conditions that puts a program at a competitive disadvantage, and that (2) most programs aren't willing to incur that disadvantage.

Then there's all the ND-specific examples-- no JuCos, foreign language requirement, a long list of highly rated recruits who couldn't make it past admissions, Golson's suspension (which probably cost us a BCS-game this season), etc.

But as others have mentioned, no argument is likely to sway this tool, because he's not arguing rationally; "my school lacks integrity; therefore, all schools must lack integrity". He's turning the shame he ought to be feeling about his alma mater outward, and projecting it onto others who seem to be doing things the right way. That's a juvenile and irrational reaction, but all too common among sports fans.

 

[NDBoiler]

You obviously can't say "ND doesn't do it at all" without defining what "it" is. If we're talking about accepting students with exceptional extra-curricular skills that couldn't get in on academic merit alone, then he's right-- everyone really does do "it", including Stanford, ND and the entire Ivy League.

But if we're talking about UNC-level academic fraud-- that assertion is pretty easy to falsify. Start with a data set that he'll agree is objective-- like the GSR figures-- and argue from there. If everyone is doing it, how are schools like ND, Stanford and Duke-- institutions that not coincidentally have excellent academic reputations-- graduating so many more football players than OU, FSU and SCar? Do they just not care? Surely they must realize that the academic angle is potent recruiting tool.

And how do we explain schools like UNC, Cal, and USC? Independent of football, those are all very high quality academic institutions, yet their football players graduate at a far lower rate than the student body generally. Are they simply less competent cheaters than Stanford, ND and Duke?

The most reasonable inference from the GSR data set is that there are serious differences in practice among Division I schools, and not, as he asserts, that they all utilize the same practices with varying degrees of competence and luck. Extrapolating further from that inference, it's pretty clear that (1) graduating a strong % of football players requires a set of conditions that put a program at a competitive disadvantage, and that (2) most programs aren't willing to incur that disadvantage.

But as others have mentioned, no argument is likely to sway this tool, because he's not arguing from rationality. My school lacks integrity; therefore, all schools must lack integrity. He's turning the shame he ought to be feeling about his alma mater outward, and projecting it onto others who seem to be doing things the right way. That's a juvenile and irrational reaction, but all too common among sports fans.

Game, blouses.

 

[ACamp1900]

Between what's been dropped and this : Notre Dame Admissions: Myth vs. reality - South Bend Tribune

I think I got some goods, I'm going after this bastard one more time. Let you all know.

(I did learn one thing through all this, ND does not have a set bare minimum GPA/test score for admissions, I just always assumed they did, every school I've attended or worked for does)

 

[Big23Head]

I didn't have a chance to read these 100% but they give you some background info possibly to "argue" with him.

iSteve: Steve Sailer Notre Dame vs. Alabama

Notre Dame's Football Challenge: Overcoming Disparities in Adherence to High Academic Standards

Notre Dame won't compromise values for wins: Pat Forde

 

[NDPhilly]

Piss on his rug

 

[pkt77242]

Piss on his rug

 

[IrishLax]

Okay I've already gotten plenty of flak from this but I can't be the only alum who wants to be honest with himself and admit that things like "football classes" exist.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Yes, Intro to Jazz exists. And so does McKenna's amazing (and athlete heavy) Ethology class. And so on and so forth. At every school there are some "easy" free electives. Every single one of those classes is open to all students. That athletes, like many students, elect to take them because they are easy or awesome or GPA boosters in free elective slots is not anything to write home about. They still have to take all the core courses for their major like any other student. And every major they take is a real major available to all students. To graduate with an engineering degree I had to take the same calculus, physics, mechanics, etc. as every other student. To graduate as a biology major, they have to take the same core courses as every other major. To graduate as a FTT major... yeah you get the idea.

Please let me know if you meant something else by "football class"... as in classes only football players can take.

Or that "tutoring" might not always be quite as simple as "tutoring."

I am not saying that ND has illiterate kids or no-show classes or institutional fraud. I AM saying that ND students and ND student-athletes operate under a different set of rules.

There is no doubt that they get TONS of help from tutoring. This is mainly to offset the fact that they have 20-50 hours a week typically dedicated to a sport whereas a regular student has those same 20-50 to study or do what they want. Football players have mandatory study hall where they are forced to do as much work as possible in a concentrated period of time. They have individual tutoring because instead of having those 20-50 hours to go to office hours or TA sessions or do work in a group of their classmates... they're stuck trying to do it all in condensed odd hours of time.

Do they play by "a different set of rules" in the sense that no other students have access to these tutors? Yes. Do they still have to do all of the same work in all of the same classes as any other student? Yes. Never with my own eyes have I ever seen a tutor write a paper for a player, do an assignment for a player, or directly give answers to a player. I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what goes on.

 

[BeauBenken]

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

― Mark Twain

This is honestly the best idea. Just drop it. This guy will live to try and haunt and torment you. That's what haters and idiots do.

 

[ACamp1900]

He caved over the articles and admitted he probably needs to do more research on Notre Dame...


this is me spiking the football... reps to all that dropped articles.

 

[ACamp1900]

Funny/sad part: I work in higher education, and rather than do my job I argued over what schools take education seriously...



...

freaking cfb.

 

[irishog77]

Now go over to his house and give him an Upper Decker.

 

[eNDzone]

Now have him watch a game with you and convert him 100%

 

[dre1919]

Have you thought about hitting him with a roll of nickels in your fist? Oh, wait...that's what U$C would do.

 

[Cackalacky]

Make him watch Rudy

 

[Catholics_Rule]

I always say Notre Dame is a university with football program, unlike the SEC that is a football program that happens to have a school there.

 

[PerthDomer]

The best way to explain it is that in accepting kids ND pretty much goes to the NCAA minimum. Admissions would laugh at every ND player's application minus one dude every other year or so. However, once in kids take the same classes (generally in easier majors) and are not tracked to athlete only majors like almost every other school in the country. If the players fail they don't play.

 

[PerthDomer]

the highest I've heard of a schollie player hitting on his ACT is a 29 (one of our olinemen). That gets you auto rejected from ND unless you're a minority. Hell Hendrix was one of our best academic fball players and I don't think he had a 3.5 in HS. That won't get you a sniff from ND either.