General team info

[dublinirish]

kid did good things at ND

 

[Huntr]

 

[dublinirish]

 

[zelezo vlk]

I promise you I won't remember that in the fall.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Well, the Poetry of the thing works, but what an imprinted obstacle to overcome.

We shouldn't go into gripe mode about including our wonderful ladies in this, but I think the memory strength will be too tough to crack.

 

[IrishTusker]

A few thoughts:

1. I always assumed that they wouldn't change the lyrics, because any replacement would sound silly. It is clear that they don't mind about that. The cadence is off, and 'onward to victory' is now not going to be sung (except, I guess, in the full version, by the glee club). Wouldn't removing that bit reduce branding opportunities? That's the sort of thing the administration cares about, right?

2. I have been in the student section for a number of years and I have never heard anyone singing an alternative version. To the contrary, girls do a fist pump at "her" and boys at "sons." There was no discussion on campus about a change, nor was there any suggestion that a change was coming.

3. The ideology behind all of this consumes anything its path; it doesn't build but only destroys what others have built. For this reason asking "what's next?" is not unreasonable. This was set up as a fait accompli when everyone is out of town, and the people who run ND seem to have little respect for the traditions of the institution.

 

[domer13]

A few thoughts:

1. I always assumed that they wouldn't change the lyrics, because any replacement would sound silly. It is clear that they don't mind about that. The cadence is off, and 'onward to victory' is now not going to be sung (except, I guess, in the full version, by the glee club). Wouldn't removing that bit reduce branding opportunities? That's the sort of thing the administration cares about, right?

2. I have been in the student section for a number of years and I have never heard anyone singing an alternative version. To the contrary, girls do a fist pump at "her" and boys at "sons."

3. The ideology behind all of this consumes anything its path. Asking "what's next?" is not unreasonable. This was set up as a fait accompli when everyone is out of town. The people who run ND seem to have little respect for the traditions of the institution.

Not disagreeing with your overall point, but the bolded is somewhat ironic. This weekend is ND's Reunion Weekend. There will be thousands of alums on campus.

 

[ab2cmiller]

A few thoughts:

1. I always assumed that they wouldn't change the lyrics, because any replacement would sound silly. It is clear that they don't mind about that. The cadence is off, and 'onward to victory' is now not going to be sung (except, I guess, in the full version, by the glee club). Wouldn't removing that bit reduce branding opportunities? That's the sort of thing the administration cares about, right?

2. I have been in the student section for a number of years and I have never heard anyone singing an alternative version. To the contrary, girls do a fist pump at "her" and boys at "sons." There was no discussion on campus about a change, nor was there any suggestion that a change was coming.

3. The ideology behind all of this consumes anything its path; it doesn't build but only destroys what others have built. For this reason asking "what's next?" is not unreasonable. This was set up as a fait accompli when everyone is out of town, and the people who run ND seem to have little respect for the traditions of the institution.

Don't have any strong feelings one way or the other. Cadence isn't significantly different. I'm sure we will all adjust soon enough.

 

[DONTH8]

Don't have any strong feelings one way or the other. Cadence isn't significantly different. I'm sure we will all adjust soon enough.

If Buchner has a Heisman year, I'm sure we will have plenty of opportunities to sing and learn it this year alone.

 

[Old Man Mike]

The cadence is not off. The poetic inflections are just fine.

Arguments might be made on other grounds, but not that.

 

[IrishLion]

"March on to Victory" is not nearly as cool as "Onward to Victory"

I will note that I'm a subway Domer, not alumni, and never sang the fight song as a member of the student body or athletic team. So I may not have the vested interest that current students or alumni have...

But I'd be curious to know how the female athletes at the university feel about the change in a general sense. Are they happy to be represented in the fight song? Did they not care? Did they view it as small potatoes, and a simple, inoffensive carryover from the university's origins?

It does make some sort of sense to change it to represent the female population at the school, but you could also say that it probably should have been addressed when the university went co-ed.

I do think the "this is a slippery slope!" argument is kind of crazy, though. I can't imagine how changing the words of the fight song to represent the female populace represents an opening for gender-equality ideology to devour the rest of the university's sacred traditions and standing as an elite institution.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Yes. I as a graduate am really offended by the gender inequality in Notre DAME. (do I need italics?)
How about The University of Notre Dame and Jesus Guy? NOW I feel included.
People who fuss about this sort of thing (ON EITHER SIDE) need to get a life. THIS is what we should be worrying about in this world?

 

[Blazers46]

Sort of a nothing burger for me.... unless they decide to make it a focal point and talk about it every game.

 

[IrishLion]

Yes. I as a graduate am really offended by the gender inequality in Notre DAME. (do I need italics?)
How about The University of Notre Dame and Jesus Guy? NOW I feel included.
People who fuss about this sort of thing (ON EITHER SIDE) need to get a life. THIS is what we should be worrying about in this world?

Absolutely not.

What we NEED to be worrying about is where 17-year-old kids are going to attend college with the intent to play football. The big picture stuff.

 

[IrishTusker]

I do think the "this is a slippery slope!" argument is kind of crazy, though. I can't imagine how changing the words of the fight song to represent the female populace represents an opening for gender-equality ideology to devour the rest of the university's sacred traditions and standing as an elite institution.

I'm an Indians fan. First, the old logo became the secondary logo. Then, it was banned. Then, the team name changed. If you give a moose a muffin...

I would say it's an open question how long single-sex dorms survive, for example.

 

[House16]

I'm an Indians fan. First, the old logo became the secondary logo. Then, it was banned. Then, the team name changed.

If you give a moose a muffin...

My hottest take: remove any PC or anti-PC feelings from the equation. Looking at it objectively, the nickname "Indians" sucks. Like, maybe the worst in all of American sports. No local ties or meaning, just a bland, generic name. On par with "wildcats" and "tigers", but weirder. Guardians, on the other hand, is objectively awesome. Named after giant statues on the famous bridge just outside the stadium depicting the modes of transportation that built the city. Clear nickname upgrade regardless of which side of the culture war you like to do battle on.

 

[IrishTusker]

My hottest take: remove any PC or anti-PC feelings from the equation. Looking at it objectively, the nickname "Indians" sucks. Like, maybe the worst in all of American sports. No local ties or meaning, just a bland, generic name. On par with "wildcats" and "tigers", but weirder. Guardians, on the other hand, is objectively awesome. Named after giant statues on the famous bridge just outside the stadium depicting the modes of transportation that built the city. Clear nickname upgrade regardless of which side of the culture war you like to do battle on.

Other bland/generic names unconnected to cities include Red Sox, White Sox, Cubs, Bears, Bulls, Dodgers, Reds, Tigers...shall I go on? And nobody in Cleveland knew that this "famous" bridge was called the "Guardians of Traffic" until they changed the team name.

The critical point is that there is never fan sentiment in support of these changes. Fans/alums/etc. simply do not count for these purposes.

 

[House16]

Other bland/generic names unconnected to cities include Red Sox, White Sox, Cubs, Bears, Bulls, Dodgers, Reds, Tigers...shall I go on? And nobody in Cleveland knew that this "famous" bridge was called the "Guardians of Traffic" until they changed the team name.

The critical point is that there is never fan sentiment in support of these changes. Fans/alums/etc. simply do not count for these purposes.

Agree that there are lots of bad names, but a few corrections: Bulls is an ode to Chicago's meatpacking history, Dodgers were named for Brooklyn's iconic trolleys, Bears were named as a takeoff of the Cubs, Tigers were named after a Detroit-based Civil War battalion, etc. The Reds and Indians are free to fight over which name is stupidest lol. And of course, the LA Lakers (from Minneapolis), Utah Jazz (from New Orleans), LA Dodgers (from Brooklyn) are all very dumb and should be renamed.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

"March on to Victory" is not nearly as cool as "Onward to Victory"

I will note that I'm a subway Domer, not alumni, and never sang the fight song as a member of the student body or athletic team. So I may not have the vested interest that current students or alumni have...

But I'd be curious to know how the female athletes at the university feel about the change in a general sense. Are they happy to be represented in the fight song? Did they not care? Did they view it as small potatoes, and a simple, inoffensive carryover from the university's origins?

It does make some sort of sense to change it to represent the female population at the school, but you could also say that it probably should have been addressed when the university went co-ed.

I do think the "this is a slippery slope!" argument is kind of crazy, though. I can't imagine how changing the words of the fight song to represent the female populace represents an opening for gender-equality ideology to devour the rest of the university's sacred traditions and standing as an elite institution.

I have seen others say there was an attempt to change it when we had our first female athletes, but I guess it didn't stick. There have been grads from various years checking in saying they have or have not used this phrasing when they were at school, so it seems like one of those things that has kind of ebbed and flowed in use over the last 50 years.

Also, for anyone arguing this is the start of a slippery slope, there is a reason the slippery slope argument is considered a logical fallacy.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Yes. I as a graduate am really offended by the gender inequality in Notre DAME. (do I need italics?)
How about The University of Notre Dame and Jesus Guy? NOW I feel included.
People who fuss about this sort of thing (ON EITHER SIDE) need to get a life. THIS is what we should be worrying about in this world?

I think that cuts much more strongly against those who made this change than those who may be upset by it, Mike.

The Victory March is the most iconic college fight song (114 years old this December) in the world, and they just changed its most iconic line because... reasons? I know a lot of alumnae, and this was not on any of their radars as an "issue in need of addressing." That our female undergrads would fist pump on "her" while the males followed suit on "sons" was the sort of organic, incremental change that a healthy living tradition incorporates. This is the opposite sort of change.

That it was done at all indicates that there are a lot of people in leadership at the University that are seriously deficient in the virtue of piety, which should be immediately disqualifying at a place like ND. Allowing people who either don't understand or actively hate core aspects of your institution's identity into leadership is how schools like ND turn into irrelevant shells of their former selves (see Georgetown).

I'm not particularly exercised about this in itself, but it's further evidence that there are many on our BoT and BoF that don't belong there.

 

[ulukinatme]

Couldn't they change it to
"While her loyal ones are marching
Onward to Victory."

Or maybe
"With her loyal children marching
Onward to Victory."

Both are inclusive and don't change the last line.

 

[Old Man Mike]

That second choice makes me cringe a bit.
I'd sing "With her sons and daughters marching onward to victory" though.

 

[Blazers46]

Can't we just call it an optional remix?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This is going to be needlessly divisive. A lot of fans are going to continue singing the original version simply out of habit (114 years of momentum is hard to stop), others will do so intentionally (presumably misogynists!) and some will make a big show of emphasizing the changed lyrics as a way of advertising their feminist bonafides. No one wins here, other than those whose loyalties lie first and foremost with ideological projects at odds with the University.

 

[Irish#1]

My hottest take: remove any PC or anti-PC feelings from the equation. Looking at it objectively, the nickname "Indians" sucks. Like, maybe the worst in all of American sports. No local ties or meaning, just a bland, generic name. On par with "wildcats" and "tigers", but weirder. Guardians, on the other hand, is objectively awesome. Named after giant statues on the famous bridge just outside the stadium depicting the modes of transportation that built the city. Clear nickname upgrade regardless of which side of the culture war you like to do battle on.

The movie Guardians of the Galaxy is what comes to mind when I hear that. Outside of those around Cleveland, I bet no one knows the significance.

 

[Irish#1]

That second choice makes me cringe a bit.
I'd sing "With her sons and daughters marching onward to victory" though.

I'm running this through my head and the timing is off a little. Ulukinatme nailed it with "loyal ones". Cadence remains the same and everyone is included. so we all feel loved.

 

[Old Man Mike]

The poetic cadence is exactly the same (if you want it to be --- you can always mess any cadence up) but who the he!l really cares?

I was just trying to make peace and not bad poetry.

 

[ulukinatme]

This is going to be needlessly divisive. A lot of fans are going to continue singing the original version simply out of habit (114 years of momentum is hard to stop), others will do so intentionally (presumably misogynists!) and some will make a big show of emphasizing the changed lyrics as a way of advertising their feminist bonafides. No one wins here, other than those whose loyalties lie first and foremost with ideological projects at odds with the University.

Yup, gonna be hard to flip the switch. It's been 15-17 years since the church made the change, but I still find myself slipping into the original Nicene Creed...and Catholics have to say that far more often than an ND fan is going to say the words to the Fight Song.

 

[chisea03]

👀. Aneyas Williams 👀

 

[ND87]

I've been singing "...and daughters" since '84...