Game of Thrones

[IrishLion]

random question:

any chance the Nights King ends up being a "good guy" when all is said and done?

I would bet every vbuck I have that this is not the case.

I would also bet heavily that he's not a good guy...

BUT there are several theories out there that the White Walkers are using their "evil" powers to move south and eventually answer the threat that Dany's dragons present, because Dany's dragons have the potential to be the ultimate "evil". So while they aren't "good," there are some that believe they are acting to prevent an even greater evil, despite their seemingly bad intentions.

 

[Irish YJ]

I would also bet heavily that he's not a good guy...

BUT there are several theories out there that the White Walkers are using their "evil" powers to move south and eventually answer the threat that Dany's dragons present, because Dany's dragons have the potential to be the ultimate "evil". So while they aren't "good," there are some that believe they are acting to prevent an even greater evil, despite their seemingly bad intentions.

Would be a interesting twist to end on. Aside from the dragons are evil thing..., what good really have the humans done?

 

[GATTACA!]

I would also bet heavily that he's not a good guy...

BUT there are several theories out there that the White Walkers are using their "evil" powers to move south and eventually answer the threat that Dany's dragons present, because Dany's dragons have the potential to be the ultimate "evil". So while they aren't "good," there are some that believe they are acting to prevent an even greater evil, despite their seemingly bad intentions.

The counter point to this is if the nights king and the white walkers are so concerned about Daenerys and her Dragons why didn't they do anything during the dance of Dragons, or any other point in the history of westeros when there were tons of dragons wrecking shit.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

random question:

any chance the Nights King ends up being a "good guy" when all is said and done?

GRRM has stated many times that he dislikes one-dimensional bad guys--like Tolkein's orcs, the "dark-horned Lord", etc. And he loves subverting popular fantasy tropes. Thus, it seems extremely unlikely that Dany will ultimately ride to humanity's rescue from evil ice demons on the back of her dragons. By the same token, it's also unlikely that the Night's King is as cartoonishly evil as we're led to believe. GRRM prefers to paint in shades of gray.

 

[IrishLax]

In the other thread, I spent a bunch of posts on my theory that the White Walkers aren't "bad guys", the Wall wasn't built by humans, etc.

 

[greyhammer90]

Something I was thinking about. There are some posters on here that are much more trusting and have more positive feelings toward institutional religion than me. For those posters, how do you guys feel about the High Sparrow? Is he absolutely horrifying to you, or are your feelings on him more nuanced?

 

[irishroo]

GRRM has stated many times that he dislikes one-dimensional bad guys--like Tolkein's orcs, the "dark-horned Lord", etc. And he loves subverting popular fantasy tropes. Thus, it seems extremely unlikely that Dany will ultimately ride to humanity's rescue from evil ice demons on the back of her dragons. By the same token, it's also unlikely that the Night's King is as cartoonishly evil as we're led to believe. GRRM prefers to paint in shades of gray.

Is the Ramsay of the show significantly different than the Ramsay of the book? I pointed out earlier that he's really the only villain on the show with no redeeming qualities. He's essentially a caricature of a villain who combines all of the negative aspects of typical villains (sadism, complete lack of compassion, unchecked ambition, etc.) with no positive qualities to soften those terrible ones.

 

[IrishLion]

Is the Ramsay of the show significantly different than the Ramsay of the book? I pointed out earlier that he's really the only villain on the show with no redeeming qualities. He's essentially a caricature of a villain who combines all of the negative aspects of typical villains (sadism, complete lack of compassion, unchecked ambition, etc.) with no positive qualities to soften those terrible ones.

He's essentially the same, at least in my opinion. Whiskey and others may feel differently.

But, I think GRRM built the character to have no redeeming qualities on purpose... in a world full of guys that will stab innocent people in the heart for no reason, he had to create a character that could go even beyond that, which is where his "torture" comes in. It's not even the brutality that he exhibits in his murders/rapes/tortures, it's also the psychological warfare that he puts his victims through. That's where he really takes "villain" to the next level, which is really the only way to do it.

It also worth noting that the Boltons are made to appear much more barbaric/strange/sadistic as a group in the books than the show. In the show, you have a bunch of guys with a creepy sigil following orders from a traitor and backstabber. But in the books, it is explained in much more detail that the Boltons are always at odds with the Starks over their methods of torture and flaying their enemies, and Roose Bolton is characterized to be almost as psychologically unstable as his son. Ramsay was raised in this environment, became a psycho, and Roose never made an attempt to correct him and rein him in at all. This is explained better in the books.

It is also worth noting that Roose Bolton himself is characterized as psychologically unstable in the books to a greater degree, which further shows where Ramsay's antics get their foundation. This is evidenced by Arya being Roose's cupbearer in the books, where she sees some of his quirks. In the show, they changed it and made her Tywin's cupbearer, so you lose some of that characterization.

 

[Irish YJ]

Something I was thinking about. There are some posters on here that are much more trusting and have more positive feelings toward institutional religion than me. For those posters, how do you guys feel about the High Sparrow? Is he absolutely horrifying to you, or are your feelings on him more nuanced?

Horrifying if I was rich and sinning (or liberal lol). Heroic if I'm the god fearing type, or poor and downtrodden.

To Whiskey's point (kinda)... two sides to this coin.

 

[johnnycando]

Something I was thinking about. There are some posters on here that are much more trusting and have more positive feelings toward institutional religion than me. For those posters, how do you guys feel about the High Sparrow? Is he absolutely horrifying to you, or are your feelings on him more nuanced?

It certainly has some allegorical context.

I can respect and also have much dislike for him.

He'll be offed soon enough.

 

[greyhammer90]

It certainly has some allegorical context.

I can respect and also have much dislike for him.

He'll be offed soon enough.

He makes me intensely uncomfortable. Probably more than any other villain(?). The lack of ability to reason or discuss is very troubling to me on a basic level. I think he's very interesting though, but yeah, I think he's f*cking terrifying.

 

[Son of Kenmare]

I thought it was a good setup episode, but what I think frustrated a lot of people (and literally everyone at my premiere party) was that the episode felt like it needs 20 more minutes. It was too short. But beyond that, it actually resolved a lot of plot lines from the past season AND verified a couple popular theories book readers have had for awhile:
1. That Mel is much older than she physically appears.
2. That Dany was going to get hauled off to Vaes Dothrak.

The plot lines it advanced that I found intriguing were:
1. Sansa + Brienne team, which will be interesting to follow.
2. Dorne wants war, which is where the book was heading before Doran snuffed it out (but secretly actually wanted it). It was kind of inevitable that the Seven Kingdoms would be thrust into another large military conflict around this time... in the books the first straw is the Golden Company landing.

What I thought was a bit disappointing:
1. Dany going to spend the entire fucking season doing nothing AGAIN while Jorah and Daario go on a rescue mission (where Jorah ultimately sacrifices himself, I'm sure).
2. Jon Snow still unresolved.
3. Cersei/Jaime dynamic... yo, FUCK Cersei. Why is the show trying to make her sympathetic?

I know I'm late on this but this has bothered the hell out of me for the last 2 weeks, I rewatched the Brienne rescue of Sansa again to make sure I just didn't miss something but:
4. Where the hell did the hounds go when Brienne rescued Sansa. Seriously, did they just vanish? One second they were completely in Sansa's face, the next they were gone completely.

 

[Henges24]

I know I'm late on this but this has bothered the hell out of me for the last 2 weeks, I rewatched the Brienne rescue of Sansa again to make sure I just didn't miss something but:
4. Where the hell did the hounds go when Brienne rescued Sansa. Seriously, did they just vanish? One second they were completely in Sansa's face, the next they were gone completely.

Yup, thought about this one during the sword fight. I was waiting for the dogs to attack Brienne or Podrick and by the end of the fight they were no where to be found.

I suppose they ran off? But those dogs sure as hell didn't seem to be afraid of anything while chewing up the baby and Walda last episode.

 

[GATTACA!]

Yup, thought about this one during the sword fight. I was waiting for the dogs to attack Brienne or Podrick and by the end of the fight they were no where to be found.

I suppose they ran off? But those dogs sure as hell didn't seem to be afraid of anything while chewing up the baby and Walda last episode.

IRL I'm sure there was a shot of the dogs running off and Sansa walking out from under the brush and it just got left on the cutting room floor.

 

[phork]

https://endgameofthrones.com/about/

Some interesting theories floated out there. Particularly about an ice dragon called Winter. Winter is Coming...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Something I was thinking about. There are some posters on here that are much more trusting and have more positive feelings toward institutional religion than me. For those posters, how do you guys feel about the High Sparrow? Is he absolutely horrifying to you, or are your feelings on him more nuanced?

Martin is at his best when he draws on his deep knowledge of history to ground his fantasy epic in gritty Medieval realism. But he's at his worst when he tries to write about religion, for reasons well-articulated here. And the show has taken those weaknesses to a fedora-tipping extreme.

That said, by the end of ADwD, the Faith is just about the only organization left that is feeding and defending the common folk. But given Martin's views on religion and D&D's treatment on HBO, I don't expect the High Septon to turn out to be anything but another power-hungry hypocrite.

Is the Ramsay of the show significantly different than the Ramsay of the book? I pointed out earlier that he's really the only villain on the show with no redeeming qualities. He's essentially a caricature of a villain who combines all of the negative aspects of typical villains (sadism, complete lack of compassion, unchecked ambition, etc.) with no positive qualities to soften those terrible ones.

He is the most purely malevolent character in the books, but in that setting he's part of a much larger cast, and his importance has (thus far) been limited to breaking Theon. Since D&D had to drastically condense Martin's story, Ramsay took on way more significance in the show, and I don't think the character is up for such heavy lifting (as the complaints about his implausible feats, cartoonish violence, and plot armor can attest).

He's essentially the same, at least in my opinion. Whiskey and others may feel differently.

But, I think GRRM built the character to have no redeeming qualities on purpose... in a world full of guys that will stab innocent people in the heart for no reason, he had to create a character that could go even beyond that, which is where his "torture" comes in. It's not even the brutality that he exhibits in his murders/rapes/tortures, it's also the psychological warfare that he puts his victims through. That's where he really takes "villain" to the next level, which is really the only way to do it.

It also worth noting that the Boltons are made to appear much more barbaric/strange/sadistic as a group in the books than the show. In the show, you have a bunch of guys with a creepy sigil following orders from a traitor and backstabber. But in the books, it is explained in much more detail that the Boltons are always at odds with the Starks over their methods of torture and flaying their enemies, and Roose Bolton is characterized to be almost as psychologically unstable as his son. Ramsay was raised in this environment, became a psycho, and Roose never made an attempt to correct him and rein him in at all. This is explained better in the books.

It is also worth noting that Roose Bolton himself is characterized as psychologically unstable in the books to a greater degree, which further shows where Ramsay's antics get their foundation. This is evidenced by Arya being Roose's cupbearer in the books, where she sees some of his quirks. In the show, they changed it and made her Tywin's cupbearer, so you lose some of that characterization.

Why would you say Roose is "mentally unstable"? He's definitely creepy and amoral, to the point that many fans have speculated about whether he's a vampire or not, but he's also a brilliant strategist, which is why he's able to help engineer the Starks' downfall and become the Warden of the North.

 

[IrishLion]

Why would you say Roose is "mentally unstable"? He's definitely creepy and amoral, to the point that many fans have speculated about whether he's a vampire or not, but he's also a brilliant strategist, which is why he's able to help engineer the Starks' downfall and become the Warden of the North.

I would have to read the books again, but I seem to remember that Roose's "quirks" are written in certain ways to hint at the fact that he is/might be unstable, and that he is moments from putting Arya in a very bad place.

Also, I say that he's "almost" as unstable as Ramsay because he's the one letting Ramsay run wild with little to no repercussions. He knows his name is being tarnished by his bastard son, but he doesn't care, because he's a sadistic guy himself. I would combine his creepy vibes and his Ramsay-enabling to support my conclusion that he is pretty unstable himself.

You don't have to be completely sane to be a brilliant strategist.

EDIT: As an aside, I tried to explain to my wife and my friend while watching the episode on Sunday night that there are theories with "decent" evidence that the Boltons are a clan of Vampires. They did not get as much entertainment out of it as I thought they would

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I would have to read the books again, but I seem to remember that Roose's "quirks" are written in certain ways to hint at the fact that he is/might be unstable, and that he is moments from putting Arya in a very bad place.

Also, I say that he's "almost" as unstable as Ramsay because he's the one letting Ramsay run wild with little to no repercussions. He knows his name is being tarnished by his bastard son, but he doesn't care, because he's a sadistic guy himself. I would combine his creepy vibes and his Ramsay-enabling to support my conclusion that he is pretty unstable himself.

You don't have to be completely sane to be a brilliant strategist.

EDIT: As an aside, I tried to explain to my wife and my friend while watching the episode on Sunday night that there are theories with "decent" evidence that the Boltons are a clan of Vampires. They did not get as much entertainment out of it as I thought they would

When Arya is his cup-bearer at Harrenhal, we learn that Roose regularly leeches himself as a medical treatment. And given the history of House Bolton, it should come as no surprise that Roose himself is a brutal opportunist. But we're not ever given reason to doubt his mental stability. Cersei is "mentally unstable". Roose is just a cold calculating killer.

 

[gkIrish]

So I just sent a Ramsay Bolton gif by accident to a girl on a dating app. That shouldn't scare her away right??

 

[IrishLion]

When Arya is his cup-bearer at Harrenhal, we learn that Roose regularly leeches himself as a medical treatment. And given the history of House Bolton, it should come as no surprise that Roose himself is a brutal opportunist. But we're not ever given reason to doubt his mental stability. Cersei is "mentally unstable". Roose is just a cold calculating killer.

Letting Ramsay run around to torment and torture people is a sign that Roose approves of the actions, if for no other reason than to plant fear in everyone's minds. That type of psychological warfare, and the fact that he supports and allows his bastard son to do the same, is a sign of a guy that's not completely right in the head.

It's brilliant in terms of creating the influence he desires. But it is my opinion that the fact that he wants that type of influence/fear to get out is where his sanity can be questioned.

 

[wizards8507]

Letting Ramsay run around to torment and torture people is a sign that Roose approves of the actions, if for no other reason than to plant fear in everyone's minds. That type of psychological warfare, and the fact that he supports and allows his bastard son to do the same, is a sign of a guy that's not completely right in the head.

It's brilliant in terms of creating the influence he desires. But it is my opinion that the fact that he wants that type of influence/fear to get out is where his sanity can be questioned.

I don't see it as any different than Tywin allowing Gregor to run around slaughtering people or Grand Moff Tarkin blowing up Alderaan to extort from Leia the location of the rebel base. I don't think either one is indicative of mental instability, it's just plain evil.

 

[IrishLax]

So I just sent a Ramsay Bolton gif by accident to a girl on a dating app. That shouldn't scare her away right??

Hope it was the one of him and the sausage lol

 

[GoIrish41]

So I just sent a Ramsay Bolton gif by accident to a girl on a dating app. That shouldn't scare her away right??

lol. Yeah, she ain't going out with you, my friend.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

lol. Yeah, she ain't going out with you, my friend.

Plot twist: if she agrees to go out with gk, what is he getting into?

 

[gkIrish]

lol. Yeah, she ain't going out with you, my friend.

Hope it was the one of him and the sausage lol

Ha luckily it was just one where he looks up and smiles so it could have been worse.

I'm not sure why Bumble even has a Ramsay gif as an option.

 

[gkIrish]

Plot twist: if she agrees to go out with gk, what is he getting into?

 

[greyhammer90]

Martin is at his best when he draws on his deep knowledge of history to ground his fantasy epic in gritty Medieval realism. But he's at his worst when he tries to write about religion, for reasons well-articulated here. And the show has taken those weaknesses to a fedora-tipping extreme.

That said, by the end of ADwD, the Faith is just about the only organization left that is feeding and defending the common folk. But given Martin's views on religion and D&D's treatment on HBO, I don't expect the High Septon to turn out to be anything but another power-hungry hypocrite.

I partially agree and partially disagree with that author's point. I agree that every religious institution is portrayed as power hungry (except maybe the old gods?). I agree that there are very few religious people that are not also power hungry. But I disagree with the idea that this is any special negative attention or that religion is treated worse than other institutions.

In Martin's writing, nearly everything is viewed pessimistically. Westeros is a shithole. Science is dangerous and mostly used for war or unholy purposes. Politicians hate the people they are meant to lead and care only about themselves. The wealthy are vain. The "masses" are ignorant and violent. And everyone of every class is obsessed with obtaining power, with few exceptions. It makes sense that religion would be viewed through the same lens.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I partially agree and partially disagree with that author's point. I agree that every religious institution is portrayed as power hungry (except maybe the old gods?). I agree that there are very few religious people that are not also power hungry. But I disagree with the idea that this is any special negative attention or that religion is treated worse than other institutions.

In Martin's writing, nearly everything is viewed pessimistically. Westeros is a shithole. Science is dangerous and mostly used for war or unholy purposes. Politicians hate the people they are meant to lead and care only about themselves. The wealthy are vain. The "masses" are ignorant and violent. And everyone of every class is obsessed with obtaining power, with few exceptions. It makes sense that religion would be viewed through the same lens.

That's fair. Martin's worldview--that power is wherever men believe it to be-- is nihilistic, but he ultimately applies it consistently. As I mentioned above, his portrayal of the Faith Militant in the books has been, thus far, much more positive than most other institutions.

I think the author's point about unfairness to religion revolves around Martin's decision to spin off academia from the Faith and hand it to the Maesters of the Citadel. For a series that prides itself on its historical depth and gritty Medieval realism, that's an obvious bit of secular ret-conning of the Middle Ages, but that's a minor quibble.

 

[gkIrish]

Random thought....is Ramsay a foil for Jon Snow?

-Ramsay is "pure evil" while Jon is "pure good" or at least as close as we can get to that in this show.
-Both were born bastards and both eventually were legitimized or will be legitimized (if R+L=J).

Maybe some not so obvious stuff?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Random thought....is Ramsay a foil for Jon Snow?

-Ramsay is "pure evil" while Jon is "pure good" or at least as close as we can get to that in this show.
-Both were born bastards and both eventually were legitimized or will be legitimized (if R+L=J).

Maybe some not so obvious stuff?

Jon is the closest thing ASOIAF has to a Lawful Good character, which makes me think that GRRM will likely make him much more morally gray when he returns.