Foreign Policy

kmoose

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What makes someone an "expert" anyways? The guy's show, while using a satirical platform, has been a politically driven show since '99. He has done interviews with Pres. Obama, John McCain and a litany of other political figures. He's been on other "true" news shows as a guest and has gone toe to toe with guys like Tucker Carlson in political debate.

Don't take my word for it. From Stewart's own mouth, at just after the 4:00 mark: "If you want to compare your show to a comedy show........."

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/aFQFB5YpDZE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

he guy has two Peabody Awards and wrote a best selling book (America (The Book): A Citizen's Guide to Democracy Inaction) on the history of American politics.

His two Peabodys were for Indecision 2000 and Indecision 2004. Those two programs consisted of some interviews with candidates (who would let a monkey interview them if it got them free prime-time air time), and parodies of the election events. Peabodys for comedy don't qualify you as a serious journalist.

And he CO-authored a book.

Just because he uses satire as a method of delivery, doesn't mean that his views don't have merit. He is just as qualified as some of the weirdos other networks put on their "serious news" programs.

Right. His views have no more merit than mine, just because he has a worldwide TV audience to offer them to.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Don't take my word for it. From Stewart's own mouth, at just after the 4:00 mark: "If you want to compare yourself to a comedy show........."

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/aFQFB5YpDZE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

His two Peabodys were for Indecision 2000 and Indecision 2004. Those two programs consisted of some interviews with candidates (who would let a monkey interview them if it got them free prime-time air time), and parodies of the election events. Peabodys for comedy don't qualify you as a serious journalist.

And he CO-authored a book.

Right. His views have no more merit than mine, just because he has a worldwide TV audience to offer them to.

Christ let it go.

Even the video you posted is fantastic. It's my go-to Jon Stewart YouTube clip. His whole career he's done a pretty masterful job of ridiculing the awful state of cable news. Obviously he shouldn't be your news source (I personally would recommend PBS NewsHour), but he's absolutely a valuable part of the national discussion. A brilliant comedian pointing out the hypocrisy from the political asshats is going to be missed when he retires in August.
 

kmoose

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Christ let it go.

Even the video you posted is fantastic. It's my go-to Jon Stewart YouTube clip. His whole career he's done a pretty masterful job of ridiculing the awful state of cable news. Obviously he shouldn't be your news source (I personally would recommend PBS NewsHour), but he's absolutely a valuable part of the national discussion. A brilliant comedian pointing out the hypocrisy from the political asshats is going to be missed when he retires in August.

Christ man, let it go. You obviously think that someone who is funny and consistently attacks a side of the political spectrum that you don't like is brilliant. Obviously he is funny. But if you want funny political satire, listen to the Paul Harvey archives.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Christ man, let it go. You obviously think that someone who is funny and consistently attacks a side of the political spectrum that you don't like is brilliant. Obviously he is funny. But if you want funny political satire, listen to the Paul Harvey archives.

Clearly you don't watch his show or you'd know one of his biggest target is CNN's incompetence. When he goes after Fox News, it often has less to do with politics per se but instead their laughably hypocritical spin. The news networks are 24/7 spin machines and he goes after all of them.

Of course he goes after the GOP pretty hard. Can you blame him when they gave us the biggest foreign policy mistake in decades and are constantly kowtowing to a mythical Reagan worshiped by southern evangelical rednecks? Everyone who isn't in the bubble goes after them. They're the laughing stock of the developed world.

I think he's brilliant because of his ability to get up there and put new material out every show. The consistency is incredible, which is why he won an Emmy for like a decade in a row.
 
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kmoose

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Clearly you don't watch his show or you'd know one of his biggest target is CNN's incompetence. When he goes after Fox News, it often has less to do with politics per se but instead their laughably hypocritical spin. The news networks are 24/7 spin machines and he goes after all of them.

Of course he goes after the GOP pretty hard. Can you blame him when they gave us the biggest foreign policy mistake in decades and are constantly kowtowing to a mythical Reagan worshiped by southern evangelical rednecks? Everyone who isn't in the bubble goes after them. They're the laughing stock of the developed world.

I think he's brilliant because of his ability to get up there and put new material out every show. The consistency is incredible, which is why he won an Emmy for like a decade in a row.

He's obviously a better singer/songwriter than he is, a TV show host:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xVUtpUdY3Uo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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Buster Bluth

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He's obviously a better singer/songwriter than he is, a TV show host:

The Poor You Know & Did You Even Try to Research This? - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central

I don't know I thought this was pretty great, whereas that song sorta blew.

In this clip we see Stewart both tear apart Fox News' patented hypocrisy and rip into a liberal outlet's (MSNBC) pretty standard ineptitude. All in one segment. I had to go a whopping two episodes ago to find exactly what I said his show was: hilariously pointing out the pathetic state of cable news.
 

Woneone

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The Poor You Know & Did You Even Try to Research This? - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central

I don't know I thought this was pretty great, whereas that song sorta blew.

In this clip we see Stewart both tear apart Fox News' patented hypocrisy and rip into a liberal outlet's (MSNBC) pretty standard ineptitude. All in one segment. I had to go a whopping two episodes ago to find exactly what I said his show was: hilariously pointing out the pathetic state of cable news.

I think the video you posted illustrates kmoose's point.

It was 8 minutes of bashing Fox News. One minute the other way.

Jon Stewart is great, but let's not believe he's an unbiased spectator, or he doesn't have a distinct political lean. I watch his show, and I love it. Yet, on more than one occasion I've caught myself thinking about him taking things out of context, or using the "Well you guys did it, so it's ok for us to do it too" mantra. He just spins the same lines that you'd hear on the other stations in a much more entertaining fashion, blasting Fox News (most of the time) along the way.
 
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Buster Bluth

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I think the video you posted illustrates kmoose's point.

It was 8 minutes of bashing Fox News. One minute the other way.

Bashing Fox News' errors. It wasn't political at all (whereas kmoose said he attacks one side of the political spectrum, simply not true) and it's not like this wasn't an unwarranted attack. He destroyed them by simply showing their errors. MSNBC's role here is, of course, unequal.

Jon Stewart is great, but let's not believe he's an unbiased spectator, or he doesn't have a distinct political lean.

Never said he wasn't. He's a proud liberal. But that really doesn't matter.

I watch his show, and I love it. Yet, on more than one occasion I've caught myself thinking about him taking things out of context, or using the "Well you guys did it, so it's ok for us to do it too" mantra.

Oh certainly. No one bats a thousand.

He just spins the same lines that you'd hear on the other stations in a much more entertaining fashion, blasting Fox News (most of the time) along the way.

I don't agree with any of this. I doubt Fox News gets a majority of the attention. Certainly a plurality. There's just too much CNN hate and individual politicians for Fox News to get it most of the time. But they're certainly the biggest target, honestly though can you blame him when they're the worst large media outlet in the Western world? They're all bad, Fox News is simply terrible.
 
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Woneone

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Bashing Fox News' errors. It wasn't political at all (whereas kmoose said he attacks one side of the political spectrum, simply not true) and it's not like this wasn't an unwarranted attack. He destroyed them by simply showing their errors. MSNBC's role here is, of course, unequal.

It's not political. Ok.

Never said he wasn't. He's a proud liberal. But that really doesn't matter.

Oh, he's a proud liberal. But it's not political. Gotcha.

I'm pretty sure that matters quite a bit.


Oh certainly. No one bats a thousand.

Then he's different how than everyone else how? Because he bashes Fox News and he's funny, that's how.

Even Fox News gets it right once in a while. I've seen a few shows with commentators I've agreed with in some capacity or another.

Again, we forgive him because of his delivery. If there was a conservative equivalent, I'm sure most would feel the same way (maybe I'm wrong), it would just depend on what side of the political fence you are. We could say that it isn't politically charged, that funny is funny, but it's much easier to laugh at the other side.

I don't agree with any of this. I doubt Fox News gets a majority of the attention. Certainly a plurality. There's just too much CNN hate and individual politicians for Fox News to get it most of the time. But they're certainly the biggest target, honestly though can you blame him when they're the worst large media outlet in the Western world? They're all bad, Fox News is simply terrible.

So they don't get the majority of the attention, they're just the biggest target?

It's pretty apparent your mind is made up, that's fine. But his entire show is politically motivated satire. To think many of his segments aren't motivated, at least in part, by his political leaning is pretty hard to believe.

A few years ago he made a comparison/segment between a Sarah Palin campaign ad and a Herpes commercial. He said that there was no political motivation behind it.

Sure there wasn't.
 
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Buster Bluth

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It's not political. Ok.

Did I miss something in that clip that was political? There wasn't a shred of "this is bad policy" or ripping on particular politicians. He attacked a "news" organization (well, two actually) for being shitty.

Oh, he's a proud liberal. But it's not political. Gotcha.

I'm pretty sure that matters quite a bit.

I'm pretty sure you're missing the point.

Then he's different how than everyone else how? Because he bashes Fox News and he's funny, that's how.

Even Fox News gets it right once in a while. I've seen a few shows with commentators I've agreed with in some capacity or another.

Again, we forgive him because of his delivery. If there was a conservative equivalent, I'm sure most would feel the same way (maybe I'm wrong), it would just depend on what side of the political fence you are. We could say that it isn't politically charged, that funny is funny, but it's much easier to laugh at the other side.

Of course Fox News gets it right sometimes. Whole shows like Special Report with Bret Baier are solid. I used to looooove Red Eye.

So they don't get the majority of the attention, they're just the biggest target?

Yeah there's a difference man. I could be wrong, but a doubt 51%< of his opening segments are about Fox News. But I bet they beat out CNN, MSNBC, topical events, election coverage, etc.

It's pretty apparent your mind is made up, that's fine. But his entire show is politically motivated satire. To think many of his segments aren't motivated, at least in part, by his political leaning is pretty hard to believe.

A few years ago he made a comparison/segment between a Sarah Palin campaign ad and a Herpes commercial. He said that there was no political motivation behind it.

Sure there wasn't.

I really think you're missing the difference between his criticisms of news organizations being atrocious journalism and politics. Hell the man calls MSNBC unwatchable and remarks about how painfully smug all of their anchors are. And he's right, that network is full of douches. So he makes jokes about it. He makes jokes about CNN being basically TMZ, how a once-great news organizations succumbed to ratings chasing. And of course, Fox News' general awfulness.

It's not political when he's attacking shitty journalism. Get it? Does he get political too? Of fucking course. But to say as kmoose said that he only attacks one side is just silly.

Maybe I've gotten sloppy on the keyboard and that'd be my bad but I see The Daily Show as political satire leaning left but certainly willing to target Democrats too (one of my faves), and more than anything about how awful journalism is in this country.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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AmCon's Scott McConnell just published an article titled "How the Iran Deal Serves America":

If Iran’s nuclear program were the primary concern of those lamenting the deal that John Kerry and representatives of five major countries concluded with Iran last Tuesday, they would be relatively pleased. Under the agreement, Iran will be stripped of 98 percent of its enriched uranium, all of its plutonium producing capacity, and 2/3 of its centrifuges, and will be placed under the most rigorous inspection regime in the history of nuclear proliferation negotiations. The cartoon image of Iran racing toward the bomb—presented last year by Prime Minister Netanyahu at the United Nations—may not have been reality-based, but if that’s what Israel is worried about, it can relax. Iran will not be racing toward the bomb.

But of course Israel is not pleased at all, and many of its volunteer spokesmen and politicians in the United States are railing against the deal as virtually the worst thing to happen in history. Netanyahu has let no one outdo him in hysteria. Iran is seeking to “take over the world,” he told an Israeli audience last week. (As the leaders of Russia, China, France, Germany, and Britain signed onto the agreement, one wonders how they all managed to miss the world takeover threat Netanyahu sees so clearly.)

Netanyahu’s followers in the United States, AIPAC, the Republicans in Congress, and the Iraq War neocons will dutifully suit up and mount a serious effort to scuttle the deal. (AIPAC has ordered staffers to cancel their summer vacations.) But something far different from Iranian centrifuges is at stake. It has never been clear to the U.S. intelligence community (or for that matter to the Israeli one) that Iran wanted a nuclear weapon to begin with, and it is far from obvious what advantages, if any, Iran would accrue if it managed to cobble together one or two nuclear weapons. There really isn’t any evidence that Iran’s leaders want the destruction of their 5,000 year-old Persian civilization, which would be the inevitable consequence of using the supposed bombs that Iran’s leaders have always denied any interest in seeking.

But the deal means something far more than outside supervision of Iran’s reactors. President Obama and his foreign-policy establishment want, I believe, at least to explore the possibility that Iran can fit into the roster of American diplomatic options in the region, where reliance on our traditional allies has run into a dead end. The obvious comparison is to Nixon’s trip to China, which turned out to be an effective way of mitigating the disaster of the Vietnam War and actually ensured that the aftermath of that war was far from unfortunate for the United States. The chaos which has been ignited in the Sunni world in great part by George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq and the aftereffects of a losing war in Afghanistan might be partially offset in Iran.

The turn to Iran was foreshadowed in the immediate aftermath of 9/11—when Tehran was the only city in the Muslim world in which there were public and spontaneous displays of sympathy for the United States, and shortly thereafter there was some considerable on-the-ground cooperation in Afghanistan with Iranian intelligence on the overthrow of the Taliban. Of course this cooperation was short-circuited by the neoconservatives in the Bush administration, who persuaded the President to include Iran in the “axis of evil.”

One doesn’t want to overestimate the possibilities for such cooperation, which may turn up empty. But it is obvious that Iran is much more than the “world’s number one sponsor of terrorism,” the agitprop phrase which Israel has sought to wrap it in. Iran is—in distinct contrast to every other Muslim country in the region—a large state with a partially democratic political system (no one at this point would deny that Iranian popular elections really matter), a very young and well-educated population, a middle class, a film industry, a fashion industry, a real cuisine, and a large number of young people who want to at least partially identify with the West. To compare and contrast the cultural compatibility of Iran and Saudi Arabia with the United States is a kind of joke.

Saudi Arabia has never been more an ally than an oil spigot: most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, and the U.S. government is still coy about the extent of Saudi government financing of the 9/11 attacks. Most recently, Saudi Arabia has been cooperating with al-Qaeda of the Arabian Peninsula, which would seem to make it a “state sponsor of terror” if one is counting. It is sufficient, one would think, to take with a grain of salt the argument that the Iran negotiation is a betrayal of our “traditional allies” in the region.

Of course, the other main opponent of the Iran deal is Israel, and Israel’s American spokespeople make frequent references to Saudi Arabia’s hurt feelings only as a way to portray their opposition as being grounded in something broader than Israel’s wishes alone. And it may turn out that a United States with more normal relations with Iran would be slightly less deferential to our “only democratic ally” in the Mideast. Sophisticated observers figured this out early on, long before before there were any details about centrifuges and inspections to speak about. Daniel Levy, the Israeli analyst and former peace negotiator, wrote this back in September 2013, when John Kerry and Javad Zarif had done little more than pass notes in the UN corridor:

If Iran is willing to cut a deal that effectively provides a guarantee against a weaponization of its nuclear program, and that deal is acceptable to the president of the United States of America, why would Netanyahu not take yes for an answer?

The reason lies in Netanyahu’s broader view of Israel’s place in the region: the Israeli premier simply does not want an Islamic Republic of Iran that is a relatively independent and powerful actor. Israel has gotten used to a degree of regional hegemony and freedom of action—notably military action—that is almost unparalleled globally, especially for what is, after all, a rather small power. Israelis are understandably reluctant to give up any of that.

Israel’s leadership seeks to maintain the convenient reality of a neighboring region populated by only two types of regimes. The first type is regimes with a degree of dependence on the United States, which necessitates severe limitations on challenging Israel (including diplomatically). The second type is regimes that are considered beyond the pale by the United States and as many other global actors as possible, and therefore unable to do serious damage to Israeli interests.

Israel’s leadership would consider the emergence of a third type of regional actor—one that is not overly deferential to Washington but also is not boycotted, and that even boasts a degree of economic, political, and military weight—a deeply undesirable development.

The fact is that Israel has used this regional military hegemony, and the political inability of any American president to oppose it, in ways that cannot help but generate hostility to the United States on the part of virtually all Muslims in the region, no matter where they fall on the Sunni-Shi’ite divide. When Israel assaults a more-or-less defenseless Gazan population and kills 500 Palestinian children, using a high-tech military provided entirely by the United States, Americans pay a price, though those ignorant of the region do not recognize this.

The United States of course will always be allied with Israel, and this alliance would go more easily if Israel made peace with the Palestinians. But it’s hard to imagine that any American president would not welcome more diplomatic options in the region than those provided by Israel and Saudi Arabia. Perhaps this explains why Jeb Bush seemed over the weekend to cast a glance towards the exit door of the Republican crazy train, proclaiming that he would not necessarily abrogate an Iran agreement on “Day One” of his presidency.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Week's Brendan Michael Dougherty just published an article titled "Vladimir Putin is now leading the fight against ISIS":

The strategic divide between Russia and the United States when it comes to Islamic terrorism and the Middle East has been on stark display this week. But the truth is that it has been there ever since the Sept. 11 attacks, showing the remarkable consistency of the Russian position.

Two years ago, Vladimir Putin piped up to defend Bashar al-Assad just as the wrath of the U.S. was at its peak. He did so in an editorial in The New York Times. Joining the vast majority of the American public, Putin argued against direct U.S. intervention in Syria's civil war. As American hawks talked up the possibility of "moderate rebels" ruling from Damascus, Putin offered a prescient caution:

Syria is not witnessing a battle for democracy, but an armed conflict between government and opposition in a multireligious country. There are few champions of democracy in Syria. But there are more than enough Qaeda fighters and extremists of all stripes battling the government. The United States State Department has designated Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, fighting with the opposition, as terrorist organizations.[The New York Times]

Now Russia intercedes again, this time with arms for Assad and an intelligence-sharing agreement between Russia, Iraq, Iran, and Assad to combat ISIS. But Putin is still equipped with the convincing argument. At the United Nations on Monday, President Obama and Putin offered dueling visions for the region. Obama's vision hinged on the idea that order isn't enough:

We see an erosion of the democratic principles and human rights that are fundamental to this institution's mission. Information is strictly controlled, the space for civil society restricted. We are told that such retrenchment is required to beat back disorder, that is the only way to step out terrorism, or prevent foreign meddling. In accordance with this logic, we should support tyrants like Bashar al-Assad, who drops barrel bombs on innocent children, because the alternative is surely worse. [via Vox]

Putin responded pragmatically, saying that utopian ideals of democratic revolution were responsible for the violence in the first place:

"Instead of the triumph of democracy and progress, we got violence, poverty and social disaster — and nobody cares a bit about human rights, including the right to life," Putin said through a translator. "I cannot help asking those who have forced that situation: 'Do you realize what you have done?'"[CNBC]

Putin wins this exchange by TKO. The truth is that the liberal and conservative hawks in America's elite policymaking circles have a problem: In Syria they have three enemies (ISIS, Assad, and Al Nusra), no friends, and no plausible end-state. The most detailed plans for such an end-state practically announce themselves as Rube Goldberg machines. Fifteen extremely improbable things have to go exactly right to win this three-sided civil war, and then you still have to find a new leadership class in Syria that didn't have its "moderate" label permanently worn off under years of combat stress.

Even the accusatory tone at the end is appropriate. There is a moral hazard when the United States holds out the possibility of air support and arms. Rebel groups try to become "too democratic to fail," and hope for Uncle Sam's backstop, whatever damage America wrecks on their countries.

Russia's thinking on Syria has the luxury of simplicity. Support Assad and be done with it. Beat the rebels, beat ISIS and Al Nusra, and in exchange for help, make Assad eat some concessions. The costs of the Syrian civil war are no longer just being paid in blood by countless Syrians. The refugee crisis now threatens Europe's reigning political parties and even the very political arrangements that define the European project.

In any case, it is striking how Obama and Putin in 2015 merely magnify differences that were present in the days and weeks just after 9/11. Yes, Putin reached out to George W. Bush in the immediate aftermath. At the time, Michael McFaul, who would later become ambassador to Russia under Obama, called Putin's welcoming of troops in Central Asia "the boldest decision of his short tenure," which represented a "risky Westward turn." Putin actually referred to the 9/11 attacks as a "global Chechnya."

But you could also see the divergence. For Bush, the war on terrorism was a conflict with between "good and evil," or between democracy and the authoritarianism that engendered terrorism. Putin and his foreign ministers repeatedly framed the conflict with Islamic terrorism as one between the civilized world and barbarians. In other words, between order and criminality.

Russia's devotion to international order can be just as self-serving and hypocritical as our own professed fealty to democracy. Russia allows its friends in Eastern Ukraine to create disorder, and we have no problem with the theocratic government of Saudi Arabia pillaging and destroying its neighbor in Yemen.

But still, it does seem like a missed opportunity. The U.S. could adopt Russia's general framework for dealing with international terrorist groups and instability in the Middle East: a strong preference for order, first. Experience has taught us who comes to fill in the void produced by chaos.

Putin may be a hypocrite and a dictator. But he's not wrong.
 

IrishinSyria

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I'm actually more optimistic about the recent news from Russia than I have been about Syria for years (as you can guess from my user name, the topic is personal for me). I've always thought we were stuck in a catch-22 where our moral posture prevented us from supporting the party most capable of advancing our national interest.

Russia, and Putin's lack of fracks given for moral legitimacy, nicely resolves that problem.
 

IrishLax

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ayatollah?src=hash">#Ayatollah</a> Movahedi Kermani in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Friday?src=hash">#Friday</a> sermon:Americans are thieves and murderers, we shouldn't shake their hands, hating US part of Islam.</p>— Amir Taheri (@AmirTaheri4) <a href="https://twitter.com/AmirTaheri4/status/649889400386678784">October 2, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm honestly wondering why our approach is diplomacy versus war with Iran. Any country that calls us the "Great Satan" and preaches this kind of rhetoric from its highest leaders cannot and should not be trusted.

Can you imagine if Jayron Kearse was President? Already would've nuked 'em....
 

pkt77242

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ayatollah?src=hash">#Ayatollah</a> Movahedi Kermani in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Friday?src=hash">#Friday</a> sermon:Americans are thieves and murderers, we shouldn't shake their hands, hating US part of Islam.</p>— Amir Taheri (@AmirTaheri4) <a href="https://twitter.com/AmirTaheri4/status/649889400386678784">October 2, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm honestly wondering why our approach is diplomacy versus war with Iran. Any country that calls us the "Great Satan" and preaches this kind of rhetoric from its highest leaders cannot and should not be trusted.

Can you imagine if Jayron Kearse was President? Already would've nuked 'em....

Doesn't this go both ways? Bush labeled them as part of the axis of Evil. Ted Cruz talks about killing the Ayatollah, and some Republicans running for President have talked about going to war with them. Do you really expect them to say nice things about us?

I think that he is being a politician. He can't be seen as soft by the hard liners in his country so he says outrageous things. Destruction of the U.S. does not seem to be their goal (I would say that they want to become a regional power or the regional power).

What would going to war with Iran solve? What would be the benefit for the U.S.?

ETA: Having said that if they get close to getting a nuclear weapon, we should bomb their facilities.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ayatollah?src=hash">#Ayatollah</a> Movahedi Kermani in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Friday?src=hash">#Friday</a> sermon:Americans are thieves and murderers, we shouldn't shake their hands, hating US part of Islam.</p>— Amir Taheri (@AmirTaheri4) <a href="https://twitter.com/AmirTaheri4/status/649889400386678784">October 2, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm honestly wondering why our approach is diplomacy versus war with Iran. Any country that calls us the "Great Satan" and preaches this kind of rhetoric from its highest leaders cannot and should not be trusted.

Can you imagine if Jayron Kearse was President? Already would've nuked 'em....

"Trust" has nothing to do with it. The Iran deal makes sense for both sides because they get sanctions relief (which was really only pinching Iran's pro-Western middle class) and we get to advance the cause of nuclear non-proliferation in the region. Maintaining the sanctions wasn't really an option anyway, since Russia and Europe weren't on-board for continuing them; so we didn't really give up anything of value.

There's often a wide disparity between political rhetoric and national self-interest. Fortunately, international relations are based on the latter and not the former. If we took everything the North Korean regime says at face value, we would have gone to war with them long ago.
 

IrishLax

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Doesn't this go both ways? Bush labeled them as part of the axis of Evil. Ted Cruz talks about killing the Ayatollah, and some Republicans running for President have talked about going to war with them. Do you really expect them to say nice things about us?

I think that he is being a politician. He can't be seen as soft by the hard liners in his country so he says outrageous things. Destruction of the U.S. does not seem to be their goal (I would say that they want to become a regional power or the regional power).

What would going to war with Iran solve? What would be the benefit for the U.S.?

ETA: Having said that if they get close to getting a nuclear weapon, we should bomb their facilities.

Well, I don't think saying "these dudes are bad" is really the same as saying "hating the US is part of Islam"... I mean this is the equivalent of the Pope or something saying that it is your religious duty to hate something.

I agree with what you're saying, with Iraq destabilized I think they see opportunity to become a regional power. I don't think this is good for Israel, and I don't think this is good for the US who has a better relationship with the power brokers of most of the other countries.

I'm not necessarily saying we "should" go to war, I'm just wondering what happens if they get a nuke. Does Israel attack? Do we attack? Does nobody attack because now we're afraid of them? Do they get to build themselves up into a super power that threatens global stability?
 

Whiskeyjack

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I'm not necessarily saying we "should" go to war, I'm just wondering what happens if they get a nuke. Does Israel attack? Do we attack? Does nobody attack because now we're afraid of them? Do they get to build themselves up into a super power that threatens global stability?

What happened when Israel got a nuke? Or Pakistan? Or North Korea?

Nothing. Because despite heated rhetoric, every regime is interested first and foremost in its own preservation. Initiating a nuclear attack would be suicidal, so such weapons are pursued solely for their deterrent effect.
 
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pkt77242

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Well, I don't think saying "these dudes are bad" is really the same as saying "hating the US is part of Islam"... I mean this is the equivalent of the Pope or something saying that it is your religious duty to hate something.

I agree with what you're saying, with Iraq destabilized I think they see opportunity to become a regional power. I don't think this is good for Israel, and I don't think this is good for the US who has a better relationship with the power brokers of most of the other countries.

I'm not necessarily saying we "should" go to war, I'm just wondering what happens if they get a nuke. Does Israel attack? Do we attack? Does nobody attack because now we're afraid of them? Do they get to build themselves up into a super power that threatens global stability?

Israel and the U.S. will bomb them before they get a nuke. I think that Israel wants to see who the next President is, and if one of the Republicans win, I wouldn't be surprised if they went ahead and launched a preemptive strike. If Iran gets a nuclear weapon, there will be a lot of saber rattling and no one will do anything (after they have it) as no one wants to start WW3.
 
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IrishLax

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What happened when Israel got a nuke? Or Pakistan? Or North Korea?

Nothing. Because despite heated rhetoric, every regime is interested first and foremost in its own preservation. Initiating a nuclear attack would be suicidal, so such weapons are pursued solely for their deterrent effect.

Completely and utterly different.

1. Israel is an ally, and already smacked down the entire region without nukes. None of those countries is willing to mess with a country that has the US's direct backing.
2. Pakistan and India were both given* nukes to make sure they settled down over their borderline-perpetual state of war.
3. North Korea is kept in check by China AND South Korea (who, like Israel, has US backing).

If Iran gets a nuclear arsenal and then decides they want to invade a neighboring country... do we stop them? Does anybody stop them?
 

GoldenToTheGrave

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ayatollah?src=hash">#Ayatollah</a> Movahedi Kermani in <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Friday?src=hash">#Friday</a> sermon:Americans are thieves and murderers, we shouldn't shake their hands, hating US part of Islam.</p>— Amir Taheri (@AmirTaheri4) <a href="https://twitter.com/AmirTaheri4/status/649889400386678784">October 2, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm honestly wondering why our approach is diplomacy versus war with Iran. Any country that calls us the "Great Satan" and preaches this kind of rhetoric from its highest leaders cannot and should not be trusted.

Can you imagine if Jayron Kearse was President? Already would've nuked 'em....

Guy is like the Iranian Donald Trump.
 

GoldenToTheGrave

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Well, I don't think saying "these dudes are bad" is really the same as saying "hating the US is part of Islam"... I mean this is the equivalent of the Pope or something saying that it is your religious duty to hate something.

I agree with what you're saying, with Iraq destabilized I think they see opportunity to become a regional power. I don't think this is good for Israel, and I don't think this is good for the US who has a better relationship with the power brokers of most of the other countries.

I'm not necessarily saying we "should" go to war, I'm just wondering what happens if they get a nuke. Does Israel attack? Do we attack? Does nobody attack because now we're afraid of them? Do they get to build themselves up into a super power that threatens global stability?

Meanwhile our president called Iran part of the "Axis of evil", even though they actively assisted us with counter terrorism ops after 9/11. They're doing more than just about any country right now fighting ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Meanwhile our supposed Sunni allies in the Gulf are actively supporting ISIS and Nusra (Literally Al-Qaeda), not to mention Jihadists in Libya.

The only reason why we have such an overtly hostile stance particularly toward Iran is because Israel sees them as the only true existential threat (neighboring Sunni countries are too weak/bought off by US aid) and the fact that our Sunni "allies" are rivals, so we can't look to favor them.
 

TomHaverford

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What happened when Israel got a nuke? Or Pakistan? Or North Korea?

Nothing. Because despite heated rhetoric, every regime is interested first and foremost in its own preservation. Initiating a nuclear attack would be suicidal, so such weapons are pursued solely for their deterrent effect.

preach.

DoD declassified report about the military strength of Iran goes over this in detail. US gov't admits in report that they have no concrete evidence that Iran is actually building a bomb, just that Iran could potentially build one some day, and that at the least Iran is keeping the option open to build one. The report also went on to say that the primary incentive for Iran to acquire the bomb is to be used as a deterrent to foreign intervention from Israel or the US. I forget every little thing in the report, I read it like 4 or 5 years ago.

People have to remember, that lying scumbags like Netanyahu and Cheney have been saying for 20+ years that Iran is a year or two away from a nuke. Twenty. Fucking. Years. Iran still has no nuke. You cannot believe people who make a living off of war-mongering and lying. I see no reason why to believe either of those despicable ass fucks now.

People also need to realize that the Ayatollah of Iran engages in propaganda against the US to drum up support in his country. If he can unify the people he oppresses against the Americans, well that takes away focus from him and puts it on to something else. Let's not kid ourselves either, the US gov't helps out tremendously in this department, especially when you have people with actual power- senators and congressmen- in this country getting on tv screaming we need to bomb Iran we need to bomb Iran for the last 5+ years.

American people might forget what our government has done to Iran, but the Iranians don't forget. Leveling sanctions against Iran for decades, supporting Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war- even supplying him with chemical weapons agents which he used during that war- a war in which at least 400,000 Iranians died, the MI6/CIA coup which over-threw the democratically elected government in Iran in 1953 and installing a murderous, torturous puppet of the US in the Shah, a man who for 26 years ruled that country with an iron fist and tortured and stole from the people and murdered and suppressed the population of Iran. Yeah, they don't forget that shit. We do. It might be inconvenient for us to ever talk about that, and we might want to forget about that, but they don't. I'd guess 95% of Americans have no idea that their government did any of that shit.

People in this country should be FAR MORE worried about Pakistan. A country that is supported by the west to the tune of billions of dollars a year in aid and that actually has a huge stockpile of nukes, and oh yes by the way there is also a radical Islamic development permeating through that culture that is threatening the break-up of that country. If one of these radical Islamic groups which there have been GENERALS and OFFICERS of the Pakistani military and intelligence agencies with ties to can acquire a bomb, it's game over.
 

TomHaverford

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Completely and utterly different.

1. Israel is an ally, and already smacked down the entire region without nukes. None of those countries is willing to mess with a country that has the US's direct backing.
2. Pakistan and India were both given* nukes to make sure they settled down over their borderline-perpetual state of war.
3. North Korea is kept in check by China AND South Korea (who, like Israel, has US backing).

If Iran gets a nuclear arsenal and then decides they want to invade a neighboring country... do we stop them? Does anybody stop them?

Iran's military is 3rd rate. 4th rate. They aren't invading anybody.

When is the last time Iran invaded ANYBODY? You have to literally go back centuries.

This is kind of funny you'd bring up invasions, considering the US invaded and occupied countries for over a decade on either side of Iran in Afghanistan and Iraq. For fuck sake we're still in Afghanistan.
 

TomHaverford

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Interestingly enough, aside from Israel, Iran is the only country in the region with a cosmopolitan, well-educated middle class that is sympathetic toward the West. The average American would feel much more comfortable in Tehran than in Riyahd.



Every case is unique. But the fact remains that the US is the only nation to have ever used a nuclear weapon offensively. There's no reason to believe that Iran would act any differently than previous countries who have attained the bomb over the last several decades.



Not directly. Just as we didn't go to war with Russia when it invaded Ukraine, and no one would stop us if we decided to invade Mexico. Israel and our Sunni "allies" are more than capable of maintaining the balance of power in the region (usually through proxies) on their own.



Iran is a much more natural ally against the Sunni Islamists we've been struggling against since 9/11 than our current "allies", none of whom have lifted a finger to stop the spread of ISIS.

Wow, agree 110%.

Funny how nobody ever talks about our "closest ally" the Saudi's and their state-sponsored funding and spreading of Wahhabism.
 

Bluto

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preach.

DoD declassified report about the military strength of Iran goes over this in detail. US gov't admits in report that they have no concrete evidence that Iran is actually building a bomb, just that Iran could potentially build one some day, and that at the least Iran is keeping the option open to build one. The report also went on to say that the primary incentive for Iran to acquire the bomb is to be used as a deterrent to foreign intervention from Israel or the US. I forget every little thing in the report, I read it like 4 or 5 years ago.

People have to remember, that lying scumbags like Netanyahu and Cheney have been saying for 20+ years that Iran is a year or two away from a nuke. Twenty. Fucking. Years. Iran still has no nuke. You cannot believe people who make a living off of war-mongering and lying. I see no reason why to believe either of those despicable ass fucks now.

People also need to realize that the Ayatollah of Iran engages in propaganda against the US to drum up support in his country. If he can unify the people he oppresses against the Americans, well that takes away focus from him and puts it on to something else. Let's not kid ourselves either, the US gov't helps out tremendously in this department, especially when you have people with actual power- senators and congressmen- in this country getting on tv screaming we need to bomb Iran we need to bomb Iran for the last 5+ years.

American people might forget what our government has done to Iran, but the Iranians don't forget. Leveling sanctions against Iran for decades, supporting Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war- even supplying him with chemical weapons agents which he used during that war- a war in which at least 400,000 Iranians died, the MI6/CIA coup which over-threw the democratically elected government in Iran in 1953 and installing a murderous, torturous puppet of the US in the Shah, a man who for 26 years ruled that country with an iron fist and tortured and stole from the people and murdered and suppressed the population of Iran. Yeah, they don't forget that shit. We do. It might be inconvenient for us to ever talk about that, and we might want to forget about that, but they don't. I'd guess 95% of Americans have no idea that their government did any of that shit.

People in this country should be FAR MORE worried about Pakistan. A country that is supported by the west to the tune of billions of dollars a year in aid and that actually has a huge stockpile of nukes, and oh yes by the way there is also a radical Islamic development permeating through that culture that is threatening the break-up of that country. If one of these radical Islamic groups which there have been GENERALS and OFFICERS of the Pakistani military and intelligence agencies with ties to can acquire a bomb, it's game over.

Really good summary and agree 100%.
 

Wild Bill

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You don't have to go back 4,000 years to understand why they hate America.

Just going back 65-70 years will do.

It cuts both ways.

If they had our economic and military capacity we'd be dead or praying five times a day. Let's not kid ourselves.
 

IrishLax

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preach.

DoD declassified report about the military strength of Iran goes over this in detail. US gov't admits in report that they have no concrete evidence that Iran is actually building a bomb, just that Iran could potentially build one some day, and that at the least Iran is keeping the option open to build one. The report also went on to say that the primary incentive for Iran to acquire the bomb is to be used as a deterrent to foreign intervention from Israel or the US. I forget every little thing in the report, I read it like 4 or 5 years ago.

People have to remember, that lying scumbags like Netanyahu and Cheney have been saying for 20+ years that Iran is a year or two away from a nuke. Twenty. Fucking. Years. Iran still has no nuke. You cannot believe people who make a living off of war-mongering and lying. I see no reason why to believe either of those despicable ass fucks now.

People also need to realize that the Ayatollah of Iran engages in propaganda against the US to drum up support in his country. If he can unify the people he oppresses against the Americans, well that takes away focus from him and puts it on to something else. Let's not kid ourselves either, the US gov't helps out tremendously in this department, especially when you have people with actual power- senators and congressmen- in this country getting on tv screaming we need to bomb Iran we need to bomb Iran for the last 5+ years.

American people might forget what our government has done to Iran, but the Iranians don't forget. Leveling sanctions against Iran for decades, supporting Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war- even supplying him with chemical weapons agents which he used during that war- a war in which at least 400,000 Iranians died, the MI6/CIA coup which over-threw the democratically elected government in Iran in 1953 and installing a murderous, torturous puppet of the US in the Shah, a man who for 26 years ruled that country with an iron fist and tortured and stole from the people and murdered and suppressed the population of Iran. Yeah, they don't forget that shit. We do. It might be inconvenient for us to ever talk about that, and we might want to forget about that, but they don't. I'd guess 95% of Americans have no idea that their government did any of that shit.

People in this country should be FAR MORE worried about Pakistan. A country that is supported by the west to the tune of billions of dollars a year in aid and that actually has a huge stockpile of nukes, and oh yes by the way there is also a radical Islamic development permeating through that culture that is threatening the break-up of that country. If one of these radical Islamic groups which there have been GENERALS and OFFICERS of the Pakistani military and intelligence agencies with ties to can acquire a bomb, it's game over.

Is your contention that they are better off now? I have 4 or 5 co-workers that would strongly disagree with you. Much like the Saudis who are "bad" people propped up by the United States, there are an awful lot of people who were MUCH better off under the Shah.

It's convenient in the post-apology tour United States to pretend like all of the ills of the world are because of Western colonial assholes fucking up other countries for their gain. That's like 60% true. The other 40% is that 1) authoritarian, puppet governments are much more effective than democracy in stabilizing these countries 2) when a power vacuum is created, crazy shit happens.

The idea that "well, Iran isn't a threat now... and if we just stop meddling everything will be fine" flies in direct contrast to history which shows that when we pull out of an area the situation deteriorates rapidly.
 

Redbar

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It cuts both ways.

If they had our economic and military capacity we'd be dead or praying five times a day. Let's not kid ourselves.

You base this on what? Because they have preyed on whom? What weak neighbor or strategic interest have they pursued in a hostile or militaristic manner? As people have said Americans would feel more welcome and at home in Tehran than most places in that region. Rhetoric from a few "Trump types" aside, the average Iranian does not hate the U.S. or the west in general.

But if we keep financing and executing Israel's foreign policy agenda in that region, that could change in a hurry I am sure. So yeah, keep listening to neocons.
 
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