FCC Passes Net Neutrality

greyhammer90

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That's not the spirit of net-neutrality. Net-neutrality is old media versus new media, and new media is winning.

The most basic example is to consider Netflix versus Comcast. Netflix accounts for 35% of the internet traffic in terms of total bandwidth. They're using Comcast's "pipes" to deliver a product that, essentially, screws Comcast's business model in terms of selling cable packages and on-demand content. Comcast, as the owner of the pipes, would like to charge Netflix a premium for this privilege. The FCC is essentially telling Comcast (and the like) that they must let "New Media" use their pipes to destroy them and they're not allowed to get paid for it.


This isn't a judgment against the "fascist corporate state," it's simply naming Netflix and Google our new corporate overlords instead of Comcast and Time Warner.

The difference is that Netflix and Google are accountable to their customers in a way that Comcast (and the like) aren't because they aren't part of a government protected oligopoly. If Netflix or Google treat their customers poorly, there are (and will be much much more soon) other places for citizens to take their money.
 

JD Irish

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This made for an exciting class in my Administrative Law course today.
 

DonnieNarco

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I've been reading about this all day and I don't know why there is even an argument really. It's better for start-ups and regular people. It seems like it's only bad for those who want to control the content on the Internet.
 

woolybug25

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What are you talking about? The vote was 3 to 2 and was not voted on in Congress. See OP of thread

My bad, I fully realize Congress didn't vote on it, just mispoke and said Congress instead of FCC in my comment. I was talking about the fact that they don't need Congress' approval for this decision. They shouldn't have to change the mandated process for this in Congress by forcing them to make a decision that isn't theirs to make. Why should they have to present to Congress, the document that has been available to them since May of last year, so they can have a soapbox debate about the topic? I don't get the point of it.To make people feel better about it? The only reason I brought up Congress was because you said it should have been brought to them, which it shouldn't have.

What does the vote of 3-2 have to do with it? If you have followed the debate or read the proposal, you would never have assumed that Pai and O’Rielly would have voted any other way.
 
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Irish YJ

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If only Rush and Obama could take a long trip on the same sinking ship together.
 

RallySonsOfND

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Yet government deregulation led to the financial crash of 2008 where financial institutions ran red light after red light because there was no regulation. Free market economics is all fine and dandy if they are ran by ethical people. People don't realize that if it weren't for the FDA big corporations would probably feed us dog shit and get away with it.

lol if you think the government is really looking out for you.

The beauty of a REAL free market system is COMPETITION. If one firm screws you, you have the ability to change who you do business with. They screw enough people, or develop a reputation for feeding you dog shit, they go out of business. Real watchdog groups who actually have a reputation themselves to uphold (or risk going out of business) would give businesses a reputation incentive.

And that crash you mentioned, happened under a government watchdog's nose.
 

GoldenDome

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lol if you think the government is really looking out for you.

The beauty of a REAL free market system is COMPETITION. If one firm screws you, you have the ability to change who you do business with. They screw enough people, or develop a reputation for feeding you dog shit, they go out of business. Real watchdog groups who actually have a reputation themselves to uphold (or risk going out of business) would give businesses a reputation incentive.

And that crash you mentioned, happened under a government watchdog's nose.

So when you get laid off, where do you go? You don't like FDIC? I like the fact I can put my money in the bank and it is insured. Probably one of the best government regulations to date that protects the people. FMLA?

Or do you just take these regulations for granted?
 

RallySonsOfND

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So when you get laid off, where do you go? You don't like FDIC? I like the fact I can put my money in the bank and it is insured. Probably one of the best government regulations to date that protects the people. FMLA?

Or do you just take these regulations for granted?

I go out and get another job!

If I have so much distrust in my bank and I want to insure my money the market would fill the void. Kind of the same way you have options in home, auto, life, etc.

The market can pretty much always do things better than the government.
 

Irish YJ

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So when you get laid off, where do you go? You don't like FDIC? I like the fact I can put my money in the bank and it is insured. Probably one of the best government regulations to date that protects the people. FMLA?

Or do you just take these regulations for granted?

FMLA,,,,. Sure it's good for some people that really need it, but there is widespread abuse. Managing several union labor forces prior to my current career, I have seen first hand how it is manipulated. Funny that large majority of people using it, take exactly their limit every year. Cost is significant to employers, and puts a huge burden on management, not to mention the folks that don't abuse it.
 

GoldenDome

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I go out and get another job!

If I have so much distrust in my bank and I want to insure my money the market would fill the void. Kind of the same way you have options in home, auto, life, etc.

The market can pretty much always do things better than the government.

Of course, there are laws that prevent collusion and price fixing. I suppose you hate Sarbox too.
 

GoldenDome

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FMLA,,,,. Sure it's good for some people that really need it, but there is widespread abuse. Managing several union labor forces prior to my current career, I have seen first hand how it is manipulated. Funny that large majority of people using it, take exactly their limit every year. Cost is significant to employers, and puts a huge burden on management, not to mention the folks that don't abuse it.

I would love to see research on your claim wrt the majority of people using exactly their limit every year. Care to share you claim? I highly doubt this is the case at Zappos but you never know. Is this just your personal experience? Curious to know how you can make such a bold claim?

Anti trust laws, anti collusion laws, anti pricing fixing, anti discrimination yada yada yada are good so long as it is there but not too intrusive.
 

Irish YJ

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I would love to see research on your claim wrt the majority of people using exactly their limit every year. Care to share you claim? I highly doubt this is the case at Zappos but you never know. Is this just your personal experience? Curious to know how you can make such a bold claim?

Anti trust laws, anti collusion laws, anti pricing fixing, anti discrimination yada yada yada are good so long as it is there but not too intrusive.

It's been 10 years, but here's what I can share. Currently a Fortune 100 (top 20 now, pretty sure top 50 then) company. It was a union call center type setting spanning ~6 locations nationally. On average, 60+% of those that filed FMLA paperwork, used their limit, exactly. The numbers were higher in the South (Atlanta), and West (Cali). The number was much lower in the MW. There was no "research" or "study". It was simple HR data that was tracked on a weekly, monthly, yearly basis. The biggest issue was intermittent use. I directly witnessed "coaching" as to how to "get over" by union stewards and personnel in the ATL location. Pretty disgusting behavior.

A simple google on FMLA abuse will yield plenty to read. There are things you can do to try and curb the abuse, but overall, employers are helpless.
 

wizards8507

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The difference is that Netflix and Google are accountable to their customers in a way that Comcast (and the like) aren't because they aren't part of a government protected oligopoly. If Netflix or Google treat their customers poorly, there are (and will be much much more soon) other places for citizens to take their money.
True but it doesn't have to be that way. Net neutrality is treating the symptom. I'd rather treat the cause so that Comcast (and the like) aren't government protected oligopolies.
 

Woneone

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So, can someone explain what happens now? I've read various places that some more what I'd call administrative tasks need to happen for this to be "official"? Something about it getting published? Anyone know a time-table?
 

woolybug25

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True but it doesn't have to be that way. Net neutrality is treating the symptom. I'd rather treat the cause so that Comcast (and the like) aren't government protected oligopolies.

stop%20talking.gif


Comcast isn't protected a bit in net neutrality, they want the government to allow them special privileged by not putting net neutrality in place. Literally every comment you make is dumber than the last.
 
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ND NYC

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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/26/t...on&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

The Push for Net Neutrality Arose From Lack of Choice


By STEVE LOHRFEB. 25, 2015

The case for strong government rules to protect an open Internet rests in large part on a perceived market failure — the lack of competition for high-speed Internet service into American homes.

The Federal Communications Commission is expected to adopt on Thursday utility-style rules to ensure so-called net neutrality, prohibiting practices like offering pay-to-play fast lanes on the Internet. A legislative response by Republicans on Capitol Hill has stalled out.

The F.C.C.’s approach makes sense, proponents say, because for genuine high-speed Internet service most American households now have only one choice, and most often it is a cable company.

“For the moment, cable has won the high-speed Internet market,” said Susan Crawford, co-director of the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard Law School, and a former adviser to the Obama administration.

Senator John Thune, Republican of South Dakota, said that Democrats were lining up with President Obama in favor of the F.C.C. position on net neutrality.

The new rules will not ensure competition from new entrants, ranging from next-generation wireless technology to ultrahigh-speed networks built by municipalities. Instead, strong regulation is intended to prevent the dominant broadband suppliers from abusing their market power.

The Faster the Internet, The Fewer the Choices

Three-quarters of households have the choice of only one broadband provider while only a quarter have at least two to choose from.

Technology, of course, can change quickly and unpredictably. So, analysts say, it is impossible to predict what the competitive landscape might look like in several years, or a decade from now.

“But we are very unlikely to see any kind of broad-scale, national competitor to the incumbents in the near future,” said Kevin Werbach, a former F.C.C. counsel and an associate professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania.

Tom Wheeler, chairman of the commission, described the challenge in a speech last year. “The underpinning of broadband policy today is that competition is the most effective tool for driving innovation, investment and consumer and economic benefits,” he said. “Unfortunately, the reality we face today is that as broadband increases, competitive choice decreases.”

When judging from lower-speed services and mobile access, there is ample competition. But Mr. Wheeler’s analysis leans on the definition of high-speed service at download speeds of 25 megabits per second or higher. He terms the 25-megabit threshold “ ‘table stakes’ in 21st-century communications,” when households are increasingly using online connections to download movies and music. At that level, 55 percent of consumers have only one choice of provider, according to the F.C.C.

Last month, the commission redefined basic broadband service, adopting the 25-megabit standard, up from four megabits. The move was opposed by the two Republican commissioners, including Ajit Pai, who says there is a “very competitive marketplace.”

With or without the new net neutrality rules, cable broadband faces numerous competitors. They include upgraded versions of the DSL, or digital subscriber line, technology offered by most telephone companies; next-generation wireless service; Internet access from low-orbit satellites; and very-high-speed fiber optic connections to homes.

Each has promise, analysts say, but also limitations. The telecommunications companies have employed a variety of techniques to increase the performance of DSL and have made progress. But cable remains a more capable technology, and keeps advancing.

“The gap between cable and DSL is getting larger,” said Craig Moffett, a senior analyst at MoffettNathanson Research.

Mobile wireless services are improving rapidly. But even if high speeds and steady transmission could be achieved, analysts say, the cost to consumers on metered data plans would make them inordinately expensive for households streaming movies on Netflix, for example. Mobile wireless is for data sipping, not gulping.

The future of protecting an open Internet has been the subject of fierce debate, and potential changes to the rules by the Federal Communications Commission could affect your online experience. Low-orbit satellite service, they say, is mainly suited to rural areas and developing countries.

Dozens of cities across the country are working to set up their own municipal broadband networks. The goal is typically to own or subsidize construction of broadband networks with fiber directly to the home, at speeds of up to a gigabit per second, or 1,000 megabits. To further these projects, resource sharing and education organizations have been established, like Next Century Cities.

Google is helping to provide an alternative, with Google Fiber. It is building out gigabit networks in Austin, Tex.; Kansas City, Mo., and Kansas City, Kan.; and recently moved into Provo, Utah. Other cities will be added, Google says.

Opponents of Mr. Wheeler’s plan, which would place Internet service under a pared-down version of Title II, a regulatory regime devised for common carrier phone companies, point to Google Fiber as a success story of regulatory restraint.

Cities have lured Google Fiber with promises of minimal regulation and ample subsidies as incentives to invest.

“The broadband market isn’t perfect, but it’s working pretty well,” said Larry Irving, a former Commerce Department official in the Clinton administration, who helped shape Internet policy in the 1990s.

“I think the key is to give people incentives to compete rather than trying to create competition through regulation,” said Mr.
Irving, co-chairman of the Internet Innovation Alliance, a nonprofit group whose supporters include telecommunications companies and community organizations.

The city-by-city broadband initiatives, analysts say, are encouraging, but it is not clear how far such programs might spread. Local budgets are tight, and the experience so far is mixed.

“Municipal is the only way you’re going to get competition, but it’s not going to be as much as many people think,” said David J. Farber, a professor of computer science and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University, and a former chief technologist at the F.C.C.

“I wouldn’t sell my stock in Comcast,” Mr. Farber said, “if I had any, which I don’t.”
 
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Whiskeyjack

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True but it doesn't have to be that way. Net neutrality is treating the symptom. I'd rather treat the cause so that Comcast (and the like) aren't government protected oligopolies.

How would you treat the cause instead? ISPs are natural monopolies because the infrastructure required to deliver the service is very expensive to build and maintain. So the only options are:

  • To nationalize the infrastructure and force carriers to compete on service alone (as most of Europe has done); or
  • To regulate them as public utilities so they can't abuse their status as natural monopolies.
The FCC opted for the latter, which I'm sure you'd agree is preferable to the former. So unless you have a plausible 3rd option here, I'm not sure why you're unhappy with this decision.

As an aside... no one brings the board together like you, wizards.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Yet government deregulation led to the financial crash of 2008 where financial institutions ran red light after red light because there was no regulation. Free market economics is all fine and dandy if they are ran by ethical people. People don't realize that if it weren't for the FDA big corporations would probably feed us dog shit and get away with it.

Not only would my father agree with this sentiment, he did! As early as the 1970's wage and price regulations.

There were many items that he read about and had a quirky ironic way to expose. The first banking scandal of the 1980's, favoritism cloaking as deregulation.

The regular changing of the method used for calculation of inflation throught the 1980's; when homes first started to be all that stood between the average citizen and those politicians robbing the poor to feed the rich, laced with subsidised housing, and catagorizing a home as an investment, to take advantage of the climbing value of the market, to ofset the tremendous inflation Americans experienced.

AND. Once those that pushed American opinion forced most Americans to invest in pensions and homes, relieving them of their wealth, by devaluing the assets, which in many cases involved theft as well as fraud.

I can just see him now laughing, "How does this net neutrality help our government keep operational costs down? Since they are collecting vast amounts of metadata anyway, this must be the best way to keep the rates down, so we can provide cheaper and better security by lowering the cost of spying on ourselves, and keeping America safe!"
 

Irish#1

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How would you treat the cause instead? ISPs are natural monopolies because the infrastructure required to deliver the service is very expensive to build and maintain. So the only options are:

  • To nationalize the infrastructure and force carriers to compete on service alone (as most of Europe has done); or
  • To regulate them as public utilities so they can't abuse their status as natural monopolies.
The FCC opted for the latter, which I'm sure you'd agree is preferable to the former. So unless you have a plausible 3rd option here, I'm not sure why you're unhappy with this decision.

As an aside... no one brings the board together like you, wizards.


I've refrained from saying anything since several of you are doing a more than adequate job. Keep up the good work gentlemen.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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You know one thing that was interesting in the argument in this thread is the whole analogy of traffic on a highway, and how it was related to tolls, showing the poor rich once again paying more than their fair share.

How come nobody drew the true analogy? In many places trucks are slowed five to fifteen miles per hour slower that auto traffic; why? Safety.

Safety is a much better example of how to treat the big guys that tariffs. Because that just degenerates to the same old economic argument that never changes. Boat safety between lake freighters and small sailboats, air trafic safety, and highway safety are all better examples, because it shows with years of data a model that works between big guys and little guys.

In essence this conversation isn't about money, it is about freedom. A lot of people can't tell the difference.
 

Circa

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True but it doesn't have to be that way. Net neutrality is treating the symptom. I'd rather treat the cause so that Comcast (and the like) aren't government protected oligopolies.

I can agree. I just can't bend over yet. I'm right with you on government control of many things but this is either being dealt to us differently and you are 'inside' or I'm missing something.. Rush Limbaugh aside, where are you getting this cantor?
 

GoldenDome

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FYI it is the Internet, not the internet. I couldn't help myself after rereading this thread. Sorry, carry on.
 

Rizzophil

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Why hasn't the entire 'Obamanet' been revealed yet?

If Fox News is running 2nd in cable rankin and MSNBC is running 25th....well that's not fair. Now that we have the government in control we can make sure that everyone is equal and their aren't any favorites on the Net. Sounds like a receipe for disaster.
 

woolybug25

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Why hasn't the entire 'Obamanet' been revealed yet?

If Fox News is running 2nd in cable rankin and MSNBC is running 25th....well that's not fair. Now that we have the government in control we can make sure that everyone is equal and their aren't any favorites on the Net. Sounds like a receipe for disaster.

What in the hell are you talking about?
 

wizards8507

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All that is fine and dandy when it comes to streaming your Netflix, but it completely ignores everything else on the Internet OTHER THAN Netflix. Now that Netflix has a free pass to "clog the pipes," and as web-based video content continues to grow, every single other thing you do on the internet BESIDES Netflix will be slowed down. Net neutrality prevents Comcast from screwing Netflix by ensuring that Netflix has the ability to screw everyone else.
 
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