Education

GowerND11

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So then what does that have to do with succeding in life? We should just be honest with kids and point them in the right direction.

Some people are meant for sweeping floors, so are meant to walk on said floors in expensive shoes.

Because all people in the country should be able to read and write, or, at least, have the opportunity, the right really, to have the chance to. All students should have a basis on how the country works so they can make knowledgeable decisions. This includes providing career education classes for some (Vo Tech schools and classes, personal finance, etc) as well as some floor level of math and reading as I stated. We educate students in this country on the premise they should become productive citizens. That should still be the goal, but I agree with you that there is too much of an emphasis on college and four year degrees.
 

irishpat183

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I didn't take the SAT/ACT in high school and honestly crapped the bed with grades because I was lazy and didn't care. I then realized I needed to care but it was too late as it was senior year and I wasted high school. So, I did the next best thing and joined the military where they taught me my job and allowed me to get a 'college degree' from a paper mill online school. And believe me, I have a solid job/career and it can get even more solid if I choose.

The problem I see with my absolute limited knowledge of education is that there is too much emphasis on going to college and getting a degree. Much of what you can use to succeed at a job is given to you by that job. Most jobs have the degree requirement which is why people feel the need to go.

And I bet you learned discipline?

I was a solid "B-C" student my whole life. Was average on tests, and didn't really care about that extra effort in school. Got my degree in college...but I'm in a field that has nothing to do with what I studied. But instead of sitting around bitching, I adapted and realized that if I wanted to make money I NEEDED TO CHANGE. Not the system. I'm now making more money than people with twice the education and have no regrets.

Education, while important, is not the only way to "make it". Desire to succeed, and will to work, are going to take you a lot further. I'm 31 yrs old and if I didn't have a wife and kids, could retire at 40. Seriously. But it's because I wanted it THAT BAD.

You cannot "teach" that. And that is what we need to admit to ourselves.
 

Grahambo

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And I bet you learned discipline?

I was a solid "B-C" student my whole life. Was average on tests, and didn't really care about that extra effort in school. Got my degree in college...but I'm in a field that has nothing to do with what I studied. But instead of sitting around bitching, I adapted and realized that if I wanted to make money I NEEDED TO CHANGE. Not the system. I'm now making more money than people with twice the education and have no regrets.

Education, while important, is not the only way to "make it". Desire to succeed, and will to work, are going to take you a lot further. I'm 31 yrs old and if I didn't have a wife and kids, could retire at 40. Seriously. But it's because I wanted it THAT BAD.

You cannot "teach" that. And that is what we need to admit to ourselves.

My dad taught me that with his belt. lol

Seriously though, yeah, it did. It also gave me the job skills I needed so that when I broke into the civilian world, I was already prepared. The job itself taught me what I needed to do for that particular job but they already knew I was trained quite well.

Kids are lazy these days because social networking, video games etc. BUT there are solid careers in those exact fields, kids just don't realize it.

Regardless, you gotta get it done yourself or else you'll never make it.

We're self made millionaire's Pat!
 

EddytoNow

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Awesome. It proves that "just throw more money at it, and it will get better" is horseshit.

Hello war on drugs!


Another big issue? We're allowing the wrong people to teach. Teachers not only have some of the worst ACT/SAT scores, but often are some of lowest in their college graduating classes.

Again, not ALL, but there is a large portion. THese people should not be teaching.


And parents need to get more involved in their child's education.

So let's lower their salaries, take away their health care, and reduce their pensions. That will attract the academic elite to the profession.

Why don't we pay and treat them as professionals and be more selective in who can become teachers instead of treating them all like **** because some of them are incompetent?
 
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irishpat183

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So let's lower their salaries, take away their health care, and reduce their pensions. That will attract the academic elite to the profession.

For the ones that don't measure up? Sure.

But you want to keep throwing money at the losers.


Get rid of the trash, and the profession will command more money.

(and please explain to me why a teacher, that doesn't work year round, needs a ****ing pension?)
 

irishpat183

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My dad taught me that with his belt. lol

Seriously though, yeah, it did. It also gave me the job skills I needed so that when I broke into the civilian world, I was already prepared. The job itself taught me what I needed to do for that particular job but they already knew I was trained quite well.

Kids are lazy these days because social networking, video games etc. BUT there are solid careers in those exact fields, kids just don't realize it.

Regardless, you gotta get it done yourself or else you'll never make it.

We're self made millionaire's Pat!

"but...but....but...Dad! I want to be an artist. And the world owes me a decent living wage because I"m here"



I'd rep you but I can't.
 

GowerND11

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For the ones that don't measure up? Sure.

But you want to keep throwing money at the losers.


Get rid of the trash, and the profession will command more money.

(and please explain to me why a teacher, that doesn't work year round, needs a ****ing pension?)

They do. Just because school isn't in session doesn't mean the teacher isn't: writing lesson plans, going to workshops, taking graduate classes, coaching, volunteering with an extracurricular program, doing summer camps, etc. Let's not forget the many teachers that take up a second job because they can't afford to live. And then there is during the school year off the clock: lesson plans, after school programs, graduate school, coaching.... See a pattern?

Edit: I get your point, along with others, about getting rid of bad teachers and I agree.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Academic status is one of the least important variables determining a teacher's overall level of success IMO, especially at the K-8 level.

The conception smart people have less patience for ones who aren't is pretty true IMO, and it definitely applies to teaching. I'm far from Einstein, but starting out, it drove me NUTS kids couldn't understand skills I thought were so simple. Took me a year to "get it" myself.

Some of the most effective colleagues I've worked with were far from the scholarly types, but had the creativity and dedication necessary to excel at their profession.

IMO Teaching is 10% content knowledge, 10% knowledge of your students (learning styles, what motivates them, etc.), 30% creating lessons that tie into what motivates them, and 50% creating classroom accountability expectations that are followed 100% of the time, NO EXCEPTIONS.

Ask any kid, and they can easily tell the difference between a teacher who is "nice," and one who "cares about them and their learning."
 

Polish Leppy 22

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That's your opinion, and I have a different one. I don't trust people enough to let them make decisions locally (that goes for education and everything else; I'm about as anti- "states' rights" as you can be), so I'd prefer the Feds be involved in setting standards for curriculums and providing funding for communities in need. If you and I can understand that different communities face different challenges, so can the Dept. of Education. If teachers and administrators were doing a better job I would care more about what they want. Everyone wants less oversight, but you have to demonstrate you deserve it first.

The administrators and parents at the local level have a far strong grasp on what their students need than some dip$hit in DC does.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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They do. Just because school isn't in session doesn't mean the teacher isn't: writing lesson plans, going to workshops, taking graduate classes, coaching, volunteering with an extracurricular program, doing summer camps, etc. Let's not forget the many teachers that take up a second job because they can't afford to live. And then there is during the school year off the clock: lesson plans, after school programs, graduate school, coaching.... See a pattern?

Edit: I get your point, along with others, about getting rid of bad teachers and I agree.

Good thing no one forces people to go into teaching.

Disclaimer: I have my master's in Education and half my family is teachers.
 

Rack Em

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Edit: I get your point, along with others, about getting rid of bad teachers and I agree.

But isn't there a difference between dumping bad teachers and incentivizing good ones?

I don't know what the answer is (aside from more positive parental involvement in education). But I have a feeling that, like healthcare, there are multiple factors that must be identified in order to effectively reform the system. Teacher salaries, unions, family instability, lapse in discipline, standardized tests, curriculum, learning methods, etc. are all at issue - but none can be solved with one, single answer.

I know that European countries (especially the Nordic ones) do a good job of educating their students. But all of those countries have 1) smaller populations, 2) homogeneous populations, and 3) less diversity of industry/economies. Consequently the problem the US faces is harder to solve. However many of those countries make teaching attractive and prestigious. Consequently, they draw some of the best minds into the field. That's the ultimate goal.

Because there is such diversity in the US, we need a uniform methodology of measuring progress. We can teach students "how to think" but there must be a way of testing our methods. Otherwise we're just pissing into the wind....
 
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EddytoNow

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For the ones that don't measure up? Sure.

But you want to keep throwing money at the losers.


Get rid of the trash, and the profession will command more money.

(and please explain to me why a teacher, that doesn't work year round, needs a ****ing pension?)

Let's start with the fact that teachers are paid only for nine months. The nine-month salary gets spread over 12 months to deny them unemployment for the seasonal unemployment they experience. Then, add in the $15,000 to $20,000 minimum spent every five years taking graduate classes to satisfy the requirements for renewing their teaching certificates. Then, add in the 30 to 45 years most teachers devote to students. Then, be realistic that a 70-80+ year old teacher has significant health problems similar to the rest of the population and would be hard-pressed to keep up the 12 hours days demanded of teachers during the nine months school is in session. Be realistic. Sure there are bad teachers, but to bash the entire profession is $$$inine. If you are looking for someone to blame for bad teachers continuing in the profession, you will have to look elsewhere. Teachers have no say in who is rehired for the next school year. That decision lies with school administrators, most of whom have their finger in the air to determine which way the wind is blowing, just like our politicians.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Let's start with the fact that teachers are paid only for nine months. The nine-month salary gets spread over 12 months to deny them unemployment for the seasonal unemployment they experience. Then, add in the $15,000 to $20,000 minimum spent every five years taking graduate classes to satisfy the requirements for renewing their teaching certificates. Then, add in the 30 to 45 years most teachers devote to students. Then, be realistic that a 70-80+ year old teacher has significant health problems similar to the rest of the population and would be hard-pressed to keep up the 12 hours days demanded of teachers during the nine months school is in session. Be realistic. Sure there are bad teachers, but to bash the entire profession is $$$inine. If you are looking for someone to blame for bad teachers continuing in the profession, you will have to look elsewhere. Teachers have no say in who is rehired for the next school year. That decision lies with school administrators, most of whom have their finger in the air to determine which way the wind is blowing, just like our politicians.

Whoa whoa, easy there Mr. Union President. Almost everything you said differs by state:

1) Salary. In some states the teacher gets to choose whether they want the salary on a 9 or 12 month scale.

2) $15k-$20k minimum is highly subjective, and in most states the district/ township PAYS for most if not all of those courses for teachers renewing certificates.

3) You're right, teachers have no say who is retained and who is not. In the state of PA, if you get satisfactory or higher evals for 3 years you have your TENURE.

4) I don't think Pat (or myself) is bashing the entire profession. But it's an entirely screwed up system right now and it's getting worse fast. Bottom line is the really dedicated and talented teachers aren't rewarded enough, but the lazy and worthless teachers are protected because the unions want their money.
 

EddytoNow

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Whoa whoa, easy there Mr. Union President. Almost everything you said differs by state:

1) Salary. In some states the teacher gets to choose whether they want the salary on a 9 or 12 month scale.

2) $15k-$20k minimum is highly subjective, and in most states the district/ township PAYS for most if not all of those courses for teachers renewing certificates.

3) You're right, teachers have no say who is retained and who is not. In the state of PA, if you get satisfactory or higher evals for 3 years you have your TENURE.

4) I don't think Pat (or myself) is bashing the entire profession. But it's an entirely screwed up system right now and it's getting worse fast. Bottom line is the really dedicated and talented teachers aren't rewarded enough, but the lazy and worthless teachers are protected because the unions want their money.

I teach in a right-to-work state and have chosen not to be a member of the union, so I'm far from a union president. Although I have yet to be a victim, I work for a school superintendent who uses his position to bully and subject his teachers to his vindictive tirades.
1) Whether you take your salary over nine months or over 12 months, you are only being paid for nine. The public perception that teachers get paid for sitting around all summer is far from the truth.
2) I'd love to work in a district that pays for the credits I am required to earn, but it hasn't happened in 40 years. The state requires the coursework, and I am required to pay for it.
3) Tenure no longer exists in my state. You are at the mercy of your local superintendent and school board, who, in my district, can dismiss you without cause or explanation. Even when tenure did exist, all that was required was to document that the teacher was not competent. Since the administration had no idea who was and who was not competent, no one was ever fired. Once again, it isn't the teachers who are defending incompetent teachers. It was administrators who failed to document that a teacher was being fired for incompetence and not for retirbution. It may be the unions, but it sure isn't the rank-and-file defending incompetency.
4) I will grant you your argument that the entire system is screwed up, but excellent teachers are losing jobs or leaving the profession for all the wrong reasons and having their salaries and benefits cut to punish the incompetent among us. I'm not sure what you do for a living, but I would bet you'd be upset if your salary and benefits were being taken away because some of your colleagues weren't doing their job even though you had been working diligently at yours. In other words, the present system punishes the innocent right along with the guilty. Sure doesn't sound like a formula for encouraging the best and the brightest to pursue a career in teaching.
 

NDinL.A.

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For the ones that don't measure up? Sure.

But you want to keep throwing money at the losers.


Get rid of the trash, and the profession will command more money.

(and please explain to me why a teacher, that doesn't work year round, needs a ****ing pension?)

1. That last comment explains why everyone thinks you're such a douche.

2. Getting rid of the 'trash' will not allow teachers to command more money. Where do you come up with this crap??? There isn't any money to pay teachers...but then firing a ton of teachers will magically give broke school districts the money to pay teachers MORE money???

3. Guys like you admit that you didn't give a crap about school, and yet people like you bag on teachers that can't motivate admittedly lazy students??? You have no idea the crap teachers have to put up with on a day-today basis, especially teachers that work in inner-city schools.

You know what, I could write a thesis on how wrong you are and how difficult it is to teach, but I'd rather watch this SC ending and I'd rather spend my time doing something more productive. Just know that what you wrote above is friggin' pathetic and students like you are why the U.S. lags behind in education more than bad teachers lol...
 

IrishJayhawk

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For the ones that don't measure up? Sure.

But you want to keep throwing money at the losers.


Get rid of the trash, and the profession will command more money.

(and please explain to me why a teacher, that doesn't work year round, needs a ****ing pension?)

I think you're probably a nice guy.

But you don't know anything about education. Just not a thing.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I teach in a right-to-work state and have chosen not to be a member of the union, so I'm far from a union president. Although I have yet to be a victim, I work for a school superintendent who uses his position to bully and subject his teachers to his vindictive tirades.
1) Whether you take your salary over nine months or over 12 months, you are only being paid for nine. The public perception that teachers get paid for sitting around all summer is far from the truth.
2) I'd love to work in a district that pays for the credits I am required to earn, but it hasn't happened in 40 years. The state requires the coursework, and I am required to pay for it.
3) Tenure no longer exists in my state. You are at the mercy of your local superintendent and school board, who, in my district, can dismiss you without cause or explanation. Even when tenure did exist, all that was required was to document that the teacher was not competent. Since the administration had no idea who was and who was not competent, no one was ever fired. Once again, it isn't the teachers who are defending incompetent teachers. It was administrators who failed to document that a teacher was being fired for incompetence and not for retirbution. It may be the unions, but it sure isn't the rank-and-file defending incompetency.
4) I will grant you your argument that the entire system is screwed up, but excellent teachers are losing jobs or leaving the profession for all the wrong reasons and having their salaries and benefits cut to punish the incompetent among us. I'm not sure what you do for a living, but I would bet you'd be upset if your salary and benefits were being taken away because some of your colleagues weren't doing their job even though you had been working diligently at yours. In other words, the present system punishes the innocent right along with the guilty. Sure doesn't sound like a formula for encouraging the best and the brightest to pursue a career in teaching.

1) There's no argument on salary. You work for 9 months, you get paid for 9 months. That's fair.

2) Teachers paying for those credits? That sucks. Sorry to hear that.

3) Tenure: I don't believe in it, especially in education, but people who are doing their jobs the right way shouldn't be getting fired.

I have my master's in Education and taught for two years, then got the hell out. I work in sales in a huge industry. In the state of PA, if you're a teacher who gets satisfactory or above from the district for 3 years, you have tenure for life. Think about that.

If I hit my goals 3 years in a row and told my bosses that they couldn't fire me, they'd laugh and toss my *** out the door.
 

sparkyND

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1) There's no argument on salary. You work for 9 months, you get paid for 9 months. That's fair.

2) Teachers paying for those credits? That sucks. Sorry to hear that.

3) Tenure: I don't believe in it, especially in education, but people who are doing their jobs the right way shouldn't be getting fired.

I have my master's in Education and taught for two years, then got the hell out. I work in sales in a huge industry. In the state of PA, if you're a teacher who gets satisfactory or above from the district for 3 years, you have tenure for life. Think about that.

If I hit my goals 3 years in a row and told my bosses that they couldn't fire me, they'd laugh and toss my *** out the door.
I am kind of mixed on the tenure system. I think it is a great way of rewarding talented teachers with a bit of job security because teachers, in general, do not get paid enough or a lot in comparison to some of the other jobs out there. You can make talented teachers stay in the profession that pays little with a bit of job security. The counterfactual is that they (the teachers) can take their talents and go to some other private sector and spend their energy/time and end up earning much more. It is essentially a way of compensating the workforce (private sectors usually will compensate its workforce with more money and incentives/benefits).

Having said that, the issue (problem) is tenuring unqualified or bad teachers. There is a bit of a moral hazard here: You tenure a teacher and it becomes that much more difficult to fire them then they have less of an incentive to continuously be top-notch teachers. Also, weeding out the bad teachers is difficult due to reasons EddytoNow mentioned due to school administrators and unions.

Universities have a tenure system for professors but it is not based on number of years spent but production on the research front. You are denied tenure if you do not produce enough research regardless of number of years spent. Though the profession is highly narrow, it guarantees that tenured folks have produced enough research and demonstrated some level of competence. Not that the system is perfect or without issues. Just that it seems to be a workable solution. It is like a reward system for all the years one has put in for teaching and researching.

My take with tenuring teachers is similar. It is a stressful job and not as financially rewarding as some other jobs out there in the world. Furthermore, without some level of passion, one will not last long here. Tenuring teachers is a great rewarding system. The one major issue is having definite guidelines as to who gets tenure. Competent teachers that excel in what they do should be rewarded and every effort should be placed on keeping these teachers around both for the sake of the profession but also training the future (kids) as well. I just wish we had a better criteria for the tenure system.
 

irishpat183

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They do. Just because school isn't in session doesn't mean the teacher isn't: writing lesson plans, going to workshops, taking graduate classes, coaching, volunteering with an extracurricular program, doing summer camps, etc. Let's not forget the many teachers that take up a second job because they can't afford to live. And then there is during the school year off the clock: lesson plans, after school programs, graduate school, coaching.... See a pattern?

Edit: I get your point, along with others, about getting rid of bad teachers and I agree.

Then what is the difference between a teacher and everyone else? Why is it that we continue to hold them above everyone else?

You don't think the guy that works 40hrs, YEAR ROUND, doesn't put in more time? ****, I'm at work from 7:30am until, at least 3-4 days a week, 6pm. And I travel. And I work from my laptop after hours. I can tell you this: I work harder than any teacher out there. Not even close.


And if they "can't afford to live" they need to change their spending habits like everyone else. I know more than a few teachers that are doing quite well.


My point isn't to attack teachers (especially the good ones) but lets stop with trying to justify a pay raise with their work habits. They dont' work harder than anyone else, most likely the opposite, and have more days off.


Fantastic read: The Teacher Salary Myth -- Are Teachers Underpaid? - Forbes
 

irishpat183

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1. That last comment explains why everyone thinks you're such a douche.

Pot, meet Kettle.


2. Getting rid of the 'trash' will not allow teachers to command more money. Where do you come up with this crap??? There isn't any money to pay teachers...but then firing a ton of teachers will magically give broke school districts the money to pay teachers MORE money???

Isn't ANY MONEY??? How ignorant is that? There is money, but, like with other public sector jobs, you allow MORONS to oversee it (unions) and stick their greedy hands in the cookie jar. In fact, Firefighters and police should be the ones bitching. They get the shaft.

Fire the bad teachers, and redirect money to who/what deserves it. It's a pretty simple concept. But you'd rather just raise taxes and keep funding the money pit? Tell me how THAT is working out????

3. Guys like you admit that you didn't give a crap about school, and yet people like you bag on teachers that can't motivate admittedly lazy students??? You have no idea the crap teachers have to put up with on a day-today basis, especially teachers that work in inner-city schools.

Where did I say that? Dumb comment.



You know what, I could write a thesis on how wrong you are and how difficult it is to teach, but I'd rather watch this SC ending and I'd rather spend my time doing something more productive. Just know that what you wrote above is friggin' pathetic and students like you are why the U.S. lags behind in education more than bad teachers lol...


^I bet it is. But teachers work no harder than anyone else. Yet people like you always cry for more funding and the problem will go away.
 

irishpat183

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Whoa whoa, easy there Mr. Union President. Almost everything you said differs by state:

1) Salary. In some states the teacher gets to choose whether they want the salary on a 9 or 12 month scale.

2) $15k-$20k minimum is highly subjective, and in most states the district/ township PAYS for most if not all of those courses for teachers renewing certificates.

3) You're right, teachers have no say who is retained and who is not. In the state of PA, if you get satisfactory or higher evals for 3 years you have your TENURE.

4) I don't think Pat (or myself) is bashing the entire profession. But it's an entirely screwed up system right now and it's getting worse fast. Bottom line is the really dedicated and talented teachers aren't rewarded enough, but the lazy and worthless teachers are protected because the unions want their money.

Exactly. The system doen't work. It hasn't. Which is why I'm not for throwing more of MY tax dollars into fire. That's idoicy. Fix the system. Then let's talk money.

And Tenure is the dumbest concept known to man. Let's guarantee you a job for life, regardless of your performance. Don't worry, it will make people work harder and become better teachers.

LOL
 

IrishLax

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First, let me say that I respect the teaching profession because I truly believe that good teachers have almost as much impact on someone's development as their parents. I think almost anyone that has gone through higher education has had at least one teacher that was just special and impacted your life in a significantly positive way.

Second, there are a large portion of teachers that suck, but this is a common thing in any group of government workers. Normalized pay, a lack of incentives, and the difficulty of termination leads to complacency and entitlement among a significant portion of the work force. This is basically unavoidable as long as you continue to have public sector unions, easily achieved tenure, etc.

I think the key to improving education is simply eliminating the complacency among the bad apples in the bunch. Let's say you docked every teacher 10% of their salary and put it in a big pot of money. Then at the end of the year, the principals or department heads could distribute it as they saw fit in terms of performance bonuses. Not for standardized test scores, just completely subjectively like bonuses at a private corporation. There would be TONS of flaws with that, but simply put every teacher would be bringing their A game to try to get that $$... much like the logic behind commission sales.

In general, I think competition is one of the surest ways to drive performance and encourage efficiency in any group of people. Similarly, I think when you deprive people of hope + goals + incentives it's borderline impossible to expect them to operate collectively at a high level. This is also why anything run by a government generally sucks to varying degrees of suckitude.
 

irishpat183

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First, let me say that I respect the teaching profession because I truly believe that good teachers have almost as much impact on someone's development as their parents. I think almost anyone that has gone through higher education has had at least one teacher that was just special and impacted your life in a significantly positive way.

Second, there are a large portion of teachers that suck, but this is a common thing in any group of government workers. Normalized pay, a lack of incentives, and the difficulty of termination leads to complacency and entitlement among a significant portion of the work force. This is basically unavoidable as long as you continue to have public sector unions, easily achieved tenure, etc.

I think the key to improving education is simply eliminating the complacency among the bad apples in the bunch. Let's say you docked every teacher 10% of their salary and put it in a big pot of money. Then at the end of the year, the principals or department heads could distribute it as they saw fit in terms of performance bonuses. Not for standardized test scores, just completely subjectively like bonuses at a private corporation. There would be TONS of flaws with that, but simply put every teacher would be bringing their A game to try to get that $$... much like the logic behind commission sales.

In general, I think competition is one of the surest ways to drive performance and encourage efficiency in any group of people. Similarly, I think when you deprive people of hope + goals + incentives it's borderline impossible to expect them to operate collectively at a high level. This is also why anything run by a government generally sucks to varying degrees of suckitude.

He says it way better than I do. Well put.


You don't motivate someone by giving them everything up front. You make them earn it though incentives.
 

IrishJayhawk

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He says it way better than I do. Well put.


You don't motivate someone by giving them everything up front. You make them earn it though incentives.

Pat, it's not a fair fight. Some of the "worst" teachers are in tremendously difficult situations. Nick Saban wouldn't win many SEC games if he was recruiting D3 athletes. Teachers can only get so much out of students who come into their room hungry or who refuse to learn. The entire system of standardized testing and creating funding incentives is based on the idea that all teachers need is a swift kick in the behind. It's ludicrous and incredibly demeaning.

And I'm out...need to go lesson plan.
 

irishpat183

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Pat, it's not a fair fight. Some of the "worst" teachers are in tremendously difficult situations. Nick Saban wouldn't win many SEC games if he was recruiting D3 athletes. Teachers can only get so much out of students who come into their room hungry or who refuse to learn. The entire system of standardized testing and creating funding incentives is based on the idea that all teachers need is a swift kick in the behind. It's ludicrous and incredibly demeaning.

Then that also needs to be changed (more reason not to throw any more money at education). And when we refer to bad teachers, there are those that stand out.

I could post links, upon links, of teachers that are just awful, don't care about kids, or do hideous things and are STILL GETTING A PAYCHECK.

L.A. teacher suspected of lewd conduct keeps benefits - latimes.com

Of course, this in in CA, land of awesome education accordign to IE.

...but is still gonna get his teachers pension. Makes sense. Cause he's a teacher and works hard and has to put up with kids.
 

sparkyND

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He says it way better than I do. Well put.


You don't motivate someone by giving them everything up front. You make them earn it though incentives.
The tenure system, at least originally intended in the higher education, is a reward not an incentive system. A professor gets rewarded tenure after years of higher education (usually but not always in their 30s) and generally after producing great research in the discipline, demonstrating strong teaching, garnering external grants that are administered through the university and having a visible impact within society. Once again, I am not saying the system is perfect or without problems. Just that it is not an incentive system as you describe but rewarding an academic for his/her excellence in teaching/researching/service. Also, the idea is to protect academics from society as they conduct sometimes controversial research; that their contracts do not get terminated without just cause. This is the very basic idea of the tenure system.

Once again, I agree that the tenure system from school teachers double-edged sword. You reward them, after certain years in the profession with a sense of job security (again, not incentive) as they continue to teach. This partly compensates for the low salary they earn and the stress they undertake on a daily basis. As children of enlightenment, we all appreciate the impact good teachers have on one's life (as IrishLax states). But this does not necessarily lead to high level of competent teaching. I don't think a complete substitution of the reward system for an incentive-based hiring is the answer. There has to be a combination of two: this is the difficult part and a major dilemma within society. Add strong unions, parent's expectations and different district aspects (socio-economic conditions), and the problem becomes even more significant.
 

NDohio

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This is a really good blog that touches on where education is going with Common Core.

Common Core Standards: Ten Colossal Errors - Living in Dialogue - Education Week Teacher



I am not typically a conspiracy theorist, but this Common Core transition has me really feeling like their is more to the story.

We all know how Apple has dominated the educational market for computers for years. Now we have Bill Gates sinking a ton of money into a whole new way of teaching our children. This new style of teaching just so happens to require a ton of new computers to be brought into all schools to be used for the testing process. Is it a coincidence that the logo for Common Core is an eaten apple with just the core left behind? Bill Gates is doing all he can to eat into Apple's market and I believe this is one of his marketing strategies.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Pat Deneen gave the following speech at a conference about Common Core on ND's campus. It does a much better job than my last post of describing why most of the "fixes" advocated in this thread won't get the job done:

I have been teaching a freshman seminar for about eight years that is entitled “The End of Education.” In the seminar we study about ten different authors, ranging from Plato and Aristotle to John Dewey and Allan Bloom, all with an eye to exploring the questions “what is education for?” “What end does it seek to achieve?” The aim of the course is not necessarily to give my students the answer to that question but to make them aware of the intense debate that has taken place over the history of Western Civilization over the ends and purpose of education. As I begin my first class by explaining, if you want to know the commitments of a civilization, look at what it aims to teach its young. If one of the main marks of a civilization is its effort to perpetuate itself over successive generations, then its deepest and ultimate cares will be reflected in its educational commitments.

So I must acknowledge that at first glance the question that I’ve been asked to address for this session—“The Purpose of Education in America”—is exceedingly difficult, since there has been no national educational system in America, current efforts notwithstanding. This might be a sign or indication that America, as a civilization, has no civilizational commitments to its young, that it is a uniquely peculiar nation for not having long had a strong national curriculum like that of England or Germany or Japan. Many look at the patchwork, state- and local-controlled variety of education in America and conclude that it is time to standardize and modernize, time to adopt an American set of educational commitments.

I will have more to say about the longstanding local nature of the American educational system in my conclusion, but let me begin by suggesting that, in its historical commitment to state and local control of education, America has in fact embraced a set of civilizational commitments. Those commitments have historically been reflected in the belief that education—like many things, including civic voluntarism, military self-defense, and self-government itself—is best achieved locally, with the first-hand, immediate, and direct commitment of time, energy, and treasure by local people in their local communities. This practice was born of an explicit rejection of centralized and distant authority attempting to rule from afar in ways that took no cognizance of local circumstance and sought to replace the will of the people in their particular places with the will of a distant sovereign. The American “system” of education, for much of its history, consisted of local governance of educational institutions, high-levels of voluntarism by parents and members of local communities, and a rich diversity of public and private institutions that aimed to offer to families the kind of education that each saw fit for their children.

This “patchwork” reflected at once a trust and belief in the good judgment of republican citizens over their lives and destinies—and those of their children—and a corresponding mistrust of distant authorities as at the least unfamiliar with local circumstance, and at worst liable to be tempted by their position as dominant power to abuse that position and to act despotically. We have not only been willing to bear some local variety for the sake of avoiding tyranny; as the French author Alexis de Tocqueville observed in his penetrating work Democracy in America, based on his observations of American democracy in the 1830s, he viewed local self-governance in townships as the “schools of democracy,” the place where people practiced and exercised their citizenship—not simply because there was no one in the capital to do it but because it was at the very heart of republican self-government that a free people govern themselves in every respect, including the fundamental practice of education of their children.

Again, I’ll say more about this basic commitment—the basic “purpose” of the heretofore absence of a standardized “purpose” to American education—in my conclusion. But having stipulated that the American “purpose” of education—namely, republican self-rule—has been reflected in the absence of any uniform, top-down uniformity, let me turn to what I would see as a set of broadly-shared “purposes” that are, or ought to be, the purpose of education, and ones that have been largely embraced through much of American history.

I think we can point to five “ascending” aims in the education of the young (while I’m sure there are more, I want to limit myself to five main aims), beginning from a more basic to the more ascendant, and that each have a corresponding end, or purpose. They are:

(1) Education in basic facts or “figures” (math): Education, at a minimum, needs to convey basic truths about the nature of our reality. These include: knowledge of the history (dates), math, scientific facts, the operations of language (and foreign language)

(2)A training in using these facts to more deeply understand things, especially provisional answers to questions that are not so easily achieved by simple memorization or “Scantron” answers. This skill is often called “critical-thinking”—we might also call it thoughtfulness, reflection, ability to manipulate and alter, the capacity to think capaciously and even to “change places” with another. This skill involves higher-level thinking like logic, Socratic questioning, scientific experimentation, and interpretation.

(3) Civic education. When we bring these building-blocks of basic knowledge skills together with others in a productive and cooperative way with other people, we are now acting civically. Civic education both explores how humans best learn and order these forms of cooperation—thus, is attentive to the study of political theories and organization—but it also seeks to instill practices of citizenship in and through the manner of learning.

(4) The cultivation of character. Closely related to the cultivation of our civic capacities is the cultivation of character, of which our role as citizens is one facet. Aristotle argued that every activity aims toward some end and that the final end for human beings is happiness, or flourishing. The flourishing human being is one, he wrote, is “an activity of the soul in conformity with excellence, or virtue.” While good citizenship ought to be an expression of these virtues (assuming that one lives in a suitably decent regime), the cultivation of character is more comprehensive, touching on the entirety of the human person, in both its public and private capacities.

(5) The highest attainment of education is one that has no further end outside itself: not knowledge that we use toward some end, whether political or social or private, but simply the act of seeking knowledge for its own sake. This reflects the highest, and perhaps unique, human attribute, the hunger to know. Plato wrote that “philosophy begins in wonder”—if an education does not at least ultimately seek to keep this sense of wonder intact, and even to encourage it, we can conclude that education of the young in all its facets is likely to fail, since all of these various “purposes” of education are most fully and completely achieved only when students are driven not from outside, but ultimately from within, from their innate desire to know. This is not to say that all people will attain the condition of being a philosopher (or a theologian, which is the effort to know God), but that the philosophic and theological human instinct must be encouraged, supported, or at the very least left intact.

While I don’t have time to explore these various purposes in any real depth or to delve into the ways in which our current educational forms (and the Common Core) does, or does not, aspire to or achieve these purposes, let me point out one germane fact about these purposes: the first two—the learning of various “facts and figures” and their manipulation through “critical thinking”—when divorced of the last three (civic education, education for character, and learning for the sake of learning) are highly prone to being employed toward only one end or purpose—instrumentalism, or utilitarianism aimed primarily toward baser ends of acquisition, material accumulation, the pursuit of pleasure or hedonism, the conquest of nature, and the accumulation of power. Divorced of any higher end, they become tools for the fulfillment of our physical nature without the cultivation of their use toward a higher end involving our role as citizens or the full-flourishing of the human being in virtue and as a creature that desires to know for its own sake.

It is unmistakably the case that the most dominant voices in education today insist that education is or ought be solely about the first two pursuits—the accumulation of facts and “critical thinking,” divorced from higher ends. A wholly utilitarian mindset now informs our basic approach to education. For example, consider the basic aims expressed in the ambitions of the proposed national standards, the Core Curriculum—for every student to achieve “career and college-readiness.” Given the pressures today on colleges to retool their curricula to similarly deemphasize the liberal arts in favor of career-readiness (recall that President Obama recently delivered a speech in which he proposed a set of national standards for rating college success, tying federal aid to such measures, and that among them was a measure for how much income was secured after graduation by the graduates of various institutions), we see clearly how a basic utilitarian mindset now dominates the definition and understanding of education and how it thereby constrains, limits, and narrows the scope of education’s purposes solely to the debased end of work.

Liberal education was conceived to be the education that was appropriate for a free people—not those whose horizons were defined by work—whereas today we see a panoply of national leaders seeking the wholesale redefinition of education to be linked solely to the end of labor, without regard for our lives as familial, social, political, and fully human persons. It ignores the capacious understanding of education that was expressed by Pope John Paul II in his declaration Ex Corde Ecclesiae (concerning especially Catholic higher education, but ultimately implicating all education) that education should be “consecrated without reservation to the cause of truth, … the whole truth about nature, man and God… By means of a universal humanism, [such education] is dedicated to the research of all aspects of truth in their essential connection to the supreme truth, who is God.” We perceive no evidence of a “universal humanism” in increasingly nationalized standards based on a narrowly utilitarian understanding of the human person, but only a dessicated and debased conception of what a human being is.

I should conclude. I began by suggesting that it was in the very absence of any national standard for education, and the strong tradition of local control of education, that we could perceive, in fact, a pervasive historical commitment to the aspiration of republican self-government. Because humans in their social and political communities are various, it was understood by our Founders that the way that these educational purposes to be achieved would be various, and so the commitment to local control of education was not born of a resignation in the absence of a strong central government, but a positive embrace of variety and multiplicity. Because there is likely to be debate and disagreement in a pluralistic society over the nature of our civic ends and the nature of a good character, it was understood that only in more local circumstances could the highest aspirations of education be pursued, even if that would be various and multiple. In our modern insistence to standardize and equalize, we necessarily discard any higher aspiration of education’s end in an embrace of a widely-secured agreement about lower, debased ends: an education based upon a lowest common-denominator, “career-readiness.” Our civilization thus shows its ultimate commitments through how it educates its young—that we think them incapable of anything higher than being workers in a deracinated globalized economic system, neither citizens nor, in the fullest sense, humans.

At the same time, we condemn ourselves, betraying our ancient faith in our own ability to educate and cultivate our young, handing over our final and most basic liberty to a distant power. Contained in the very act of handing over the education of our young is the self-indictment of a decaying Republic, a future feared by, among others, Tocqueville, as a possible path that America might take, since it is one that all republics heretofore have taken, and is an inevitability once a people has lost the taste and the art of ruling themselves.
 

NDohio

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(Stands at desk and applauds)

Thanks for posting Whiskey.
 

Grahambo

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Get a degree. RT <a href="https://twitter.com/BryanDFischer">@BryanDFischer</a> NCAA stats on going from high school to the pros - <a href="http://t.co/8hk1OZEjDA">http://t.co/8hk1OZEjDA</a> … <a href="http://t.co/cPn00wGIz1">pic.twitter.com/cPn00wGIz1</a></p>— Rafiq el Arculli (@rafiqelarculli) <a href="https://twitter.com/rafiqelarculli/statuses/443379162061885441">March 11, 2014</a></blockquote>
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