Defensive Line Thread

[Whiskeyjack]

Why not both?

 

[stlnd01]

I strongly doubt we'll lose all of those players. Most of our JRs will be coming back. I expect Love to bolt but I don't think our DEs will get first round grades yet.

If they come back next year and continue to improve, they'll be highly coveted players in next year's draft. Bonner, Tillery, Tranquil, Love, Coney will be enough attrition.

I’m curious to see what Kareem and Okwara do. Agree both would get drafted, but they’re not first-round picks right now. Also both seem like they like being at ND, which counts for something. Staying has probably helped Tillery and Coney, so they’ve got that to see as well. Would also be curious how Romeo Okwara advises Little Bro.

I’m assuming Hayes stays and Love (unfortunately) is too good to risk sticking around.

 

[Irish YJ]

Our DL is supposed to be one of the best this year but our rankings are fairly poor. That's confusing.

I think they need to tweak the advanced stats adding hurries to the sack numbers.

I strongly doubt we'll lose all of those players. Most of our JRs will be coming back. I expect Love to bolt but I don't think our DEs will get first round grades yet.

If they come back next year and continue to improve, they'll be highly coveted players in next year's draft. Bonner, Tillery, Tranquil, Love, Coney will be enough attrition.

I think (and hope), they come back as well. I can see one, or even two getting 2nd or 3rd round grades though. I hope that's not enough to seriously consider bolting. Like it or not, these guys are going to get a lot of attention the rest of the year as they continue to collect stats, and as scouts continue to look closely at Tillery and Coney.

Basically on runs that are 3rd down or 4th down and 1, we are one of the worst at getting stops. This makes sense, we are not big on our d line at all, which is why we get so much pressure, we're more of a speed pass rushing dline then a run stuffing d line.

I think this may be a bit of play calling too. Even though we are not that big, we are certainly big enough when you think about most our opponents to date, and given most of these short yardage gains are going through Bonner/Tillery/Coney/Tranquil

I’m curious to see what Kareem and Okwara do. Agree both would get drafted, but they’re not first-round picks right now. Also both seem like they like being at ND, which counts for something. Staying has probably helped Tillery and Coney, so they’ve got that to see as well. Would also be curious how Romeo Okwara advises Little Bro.

I’m assuming Hayes stays and Love (unfortunately) is too good to risk sticking around.

Staying at ND was huge for JT. I thought he was more likely to grad transfer last year, then test NFL waters. Coney has really made the best of things as well.

I've even seen mocks with Elliot going in the 3rd. I would have thought Pride would pop on the mocks before Elliot.

 

[stlnd01]

I've even seen mocks with Elliot going in the 3rd. I would have thought Pride would pop on the mocks before Elliot.

Jalen Elliot has turned into a good player for us, but that's ridiculous.

I think Notre Dame players are often overrated in mock drafts this time of year, compared to where they ultimately get drafted. Familiarity bias and/or click-chasing. It's a bit of a problem.

 

[Irish YJ]

Jalen Elliot has turned into a good player for us, but that's ridiculous.

I think Notre Dame players are often overrated in mock drafts this time of year, compared to where they ultimately get drafted. Familiarity bias and/or click-chasing. It's a bit of a problem.

without a doubt, Elliot has improved a ton! was just a little shocked to see him pop up on the mock. agree we're overrated early. that's why I fear Okwara and Kareem are going to start getting love.

 

[NDTH91]

Some have alluded to it, but can't tell if no one has caught it... these have to be O-Line stats, right? Or the years are backwards or something??

Even the headers still say "run blocking" and "pass blocking"

YJ, care to double check your work?

Edit: Yeah... your link is broken. It says "Defensive Line Stats" in the header, but then says "below are the following Offensive Line stats" Would love to see the real stats though!

 

[Irish YJ]

Some have alluded to it, but can't tell if no one has caught it... these have to be O-Line stats, right? Or the years are backwards or something??

Even the headers still say "run blocking" and "pass blocking"

YJ, care to double check your work?

Edit: Yeah... your link is broken. It says "Defensive Line Stats" in the header, but then says "below are the following Offensive Line stats" Would love to see the real stats though!

they are definitely D Line.
O line doesn't have Stuff rates for a matter of comparison.

 

[NDTH91]

they are definitely D Line.
O line doesn't have Stuff rates for a matter of comparison.

It would make sense to me that O-line would have stuff rates (the higher the stuff rate, the worse the O-line), but nonetheless you're right - I was too quick to jump at their shoddy workmanship on the paragraphs preceding the stats, which do seem to be copy/pasted from their O-line analysis...

It just seems nuts to me where we rank in some of these stats. How many times have we had huge stops on 3rd and short this year (Va Tech goal line stand, I can think of a few others during Stanford, Wake, etc) and we're 128th in power success rate??? That seems whacky. 50th maybe? Sure... but 128th?!

With how good of a season our D-line has had, these stats don't reflect it at all. Certainly hope that's not an arbiter of future success (or lack thereof)...

 

[Irish YJ]

It would make sense to me that O-line would have stuff rates (the higher the stuff rate, the worse the O-line), but nonetheless you're right - I was too quick to jump at their shoddy workmanship on the paragraphs preceding the stats, which do seem to be copy/pasted from their O-line analysis...

It just seems nuts to me where we rank in some of these stats. How many times have we had huge stops on 3rd and short this year (Va Tech goal line stand, I can think of a few others during Stanford, Wake, etc) and we're 128th in power success rate??? That seems whacky. 50th maybe? Sure... but 128th?!

With how good of a season our D-line has had, these stats don't reflect it at all. Certainly hope that's not an arbiter of future success (or lack thereof)...

Watch the Pitt game, and the early games. BSU, Vandy.. we weren't good at 3rd or 4th and short. We've been great at getting pressures, not so great stopping the run, or actual sacks (except JT). Bears out in a lot of other stats too.

 

[NDTH91]

Watch the Pitt game, and the early games. BSU, Vandy.. we weren't good at 3rd or 4th and short. We've been great at getting pressures, not so great stopping the run, or actual sacks (except JT). Bears out in a lot of other stats too.

I knew actual sacks haven't been terribly abundant, but I'm ok with that considering the amount of pressure/hurries that have been there.

I guess it's true we seemed to "bleed" a lot on D early in the year, giving up way too many first downs on the ground (hence the huge snap count numbers to ball state and vandy). It just seems like with how we shut down Bryce Love and VT's running game for the most part, it's hard to believe we would be 128th in any defensive stat.

I guess it's good that our 7 W's are tied for first in the nation

 

[NDMIA]

Football Outsiders Defensive Line Rankings
1 Clemson
2 Miami-FL
3 Alabama
4 Michigan
5 Texas A&M
6 Michigan State
7 TCU
8 Utah
9 Auburn
10 Ohio State
11 Virginia Tech
12 Virginia
13 Mississippi State
14 Iowa
15 Florida State
16 Iowa State
17 NC State
18 Florida
19 Syracuse
20 Kentucky
21 Penn State
22 West Virginia
23 Notre Dame
24 Colorado
25 Arizona
26 Washington State
27 Purdue
28 USC
29 Northwestern
30 Wisconsin
31 Oklahoma State
32 Pittsburgh
33 Texas
34 Boston College
35 Missouri
36 Wake Forest
37 California
38 Kansas
39 Minnesota
40 Oregon
41 Arkansas
42 South Carolina
43 Arizona State
44 Nebraska
45 Texas Tech
46 Stanford
47 North Carolina
48 LSU
49 Baylor
50 Duke
51 Georgia
52 Maryland
53 Oklahoma
54 Georgia Tech
55 Washington
56 Indiana
57 Vanderbilt
58 Tennessee
59 Ole Miss
60 Kansas State
61 Rutgers
62 UCLA
63 Oregon State
64 Illinois
65 Louisville

ND's opponents in bold. FSU is gonna be a big test for the OLine to handle. Also, pretty nice slot for ND's DLine to be in, but Football Outsiders puts an emphasis on sacks and those percentages and ND has a miserable time finishing those QB hurries for some odd reason. Still a fantastic DLine!

 

[Luckylucci]

Big game for our DL. We should destroy this OL. With Book out, they need to put this team on their backs and make some shit happen. Which I think they will.

 

[PANDFAN]

kareem and okwara each with 2 sacks, tillery 1 and going with 1 from coney as well.....

 

[BobbyMac]

4 sacks by Okwara. The flood gates have opened. The OT will be frozen to the turf. He'll look like an '85 Bear. <strike>Book it!</strike>

Wimbush it!

 

[DONTH8]

http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...fighting-irish-defensive-line-became-dominant


Enjoyed reading this article about our DL.

 

[Irish YJ]

How Notre Dame's D-line became so dominant
http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...fighting-irish-defensive-line-became-dominant

On this Thursday night, the wait staff at Ruth's Chris Steak House in Granger, Indiana, will scramble to locate the last of its remaining bread bowls and push together a long string of tables in the back corner of the restaurant. They are accustomed now to the onslaught of 4,500 pounds of hungry men wrapped in blue-and-gold sweatpants who ramble through their doors each week.

Thursday night is discounted burger night at the usually pricey chain restaurant, which makes it a perfect night for the Notre Dame defensive line to get a little taste of the good life on a college student's budget. The first time the group of 16 Fighting Irish linemen and their coaches showed up for what has become a weekly tradition, the woefully unprepared waiter saddled with serving them plopped one lonely bread basket in the middle of their table. No one reached for the bread. The waiter was greeted instead by more than a dozen sets of tilted heads, indignantly raised eyebrows and otherwise blank stares.

"The next week when we came," said fifth-year senior Jonathan Bonner, "they were ready for us."

This a group that makes sure everybody gets theirs.

No position group at Notre Dame has had a more dramatic and impactful turnaround in the past two years than the defensive line. Like the well-dressed waiters, opposing quarterbacks know by now to prepare to see a lot of them.

The No. 3 Irish have allowed one passing touchdown in their past four games and rank second in college football for yards allowed per passing attempt (5.3). Saturday at Yankee Stadium, they'll play a key role in trying to slow down No. 13 Syracuse, a team that has topped 50 points five times already this season, in perhaps the biggest remaining obstacle to an undefeated regular season. Head coach Brian Kelly credits much of that defensive success to the "selfless" four-man pass rush on which no player really cares which of them gets the credit.

When Kelly shook up his coaching staff after a 4-8 season in 2016 -- one in which his defense had fewer sacks than all but one Power 5 team -- he asked longtime assistant Mike Elston to return to a familiar spot in the defensive line room. Elston, who is also the team's associate head coach, was coaching the linebackers at that time and had spent the past year staring at the backsides of a group he saw as apathetic and lacking accountability.

"I really questioned at that time the unit's care factor," Elston said. "... We certainly didn't care about each other the way we currently do. That was one thing we had to fix in the room. I believe that has been not only fixed but it's a thing that's flourishing."

Elston's first act in his new role a couple of years ago was to lock all the defensive linemen in a room and make them search for the key. He and his linemen attended an "escape room" in South Bend where willing participants have an hour to work together in a locked room to solve a series of riddles to unlock the door. Long story short, they didn't get out.

How do you bring together a group of college-age guys who weigh an average of 275 pounds apiece? Food is a pretty safe place to start. Elston hosted the defensive line at his house for regular meals. They started invading the local Chipotle en masse. And this year, they discovered the "balling on a budget" possibility of burger night at Ruth's Chris.

"It's pretty nice that it's only $10," said defensive end Julian Okwara. "There are a lot of burgers consumed. We can't afford that on any other night, but it's fun to get there and just talk about something other than football with your guys."

Okwara embodies Notre Dame's new pass-rushing ethos: Be patient, trust your teammates and eventually the big plays will come to you. The athletic junior had a habit of forcing quarterbacks into the arms of his teammates, or at least forcing them into bad throws. He has been credited with 21 hurries (three times as many as anyone else on the roster) but rarely got the satisfaction of his own sack before racking up 2.5 in a recent win at Northwestern.

A part of the turnaround on Notre Dame's defensive line is, of course, an upgrade in talent. The Irish have roped in a handful of nationally coveted prospects who are now fully mature contributors. Junior Khalid Kareem, who has a team-high 10 tackles for loss, was committed to play at Alabama before changing his mind. That same year, the Irish flipped five-star recruit Daelin Hayes from rival USC, and the year earlier, they managed to pluck Jerry Tillery (seven sacks in 2018) out of LSU's backyard.

Elston and the rest of the Irish defensive staff have elected to step back and let those talented linemen go to work rather than try to manufacture pressure. The Irish rarely bring more than their four down linemen after the quarterback in passing situations.

They also allow that group much more freedom. Rather than strict assignments, Notre Dame's pass-rushers are taught to adapt on the fly. If an offensive tackle is cheating to the outside, for example, Kareem or Hayes can try to exploit that and beat him inside even if that doesn't match his job responsibility in the defense that was called. The key to such a flexible style is having teammates who can recognize when one player is switching things up and react accordingly. If one player sees another going for the big play, he has to be able to adjust his plans and play a supporting role.

"I mean, it goes back to the relationships we have," Kareem said. "We've been working each other for so long that it's not robotic. It's a flow. It's organic. If I rush too far inside, I know Bonner or [Tillery] is going to be there to make me right. I'm not too worried about that."

Elston said the ability to count on each other is what sets the 2018 group apart from other dominant lines the Irish have had in the past. They are, for instance, a step ahead of the 2012 group loaded with NFL talent that helped lead Notre Dame to its last undefeated season.

His players say they knew they had arrived at that point months ago when it came time for the first meetings of spring practice. The group had too many bodies to squeeze into its usual meeting room, so after a couple of days, it traded to a larger space usually occupied by the defensive backs. When Elston entered the new room for the first time, he found a row of empty chairs in the back and a group of large men wedged elbow to elbow around the tables toward the front. They wanted to be as close as possible.

The film sessions in that room have grown this year into a battleground where no one -- not even Elston -- is safe from a few wisecracks. The jokes are good-natured attempts to hold each other accountable. No one is above a correction from his teammates, even if things might not seem too serious from the outside looking in.

The linebackers and defensive backs who wander past the door now refer to the tightly packed room as "the café." There is music blaring. There are usually a few guys laughing. There is, obviously, plenty of food. "They walk by like, 'Oh, y'all in the café,'" Bonner said. "It might look like that. But no, that's us getting work done. That's what works for us."

 

[Irish YJ]

freebie from 247
https://247sports.com/college/notre-dame/Article/Notre-Dame-Drive-Thru-Defense-125568906/

didn't do the math, but the DL looks to be the clear winner of position groups!

Notre Dame defensive coordinator Clark Lea’s unit faced 143 meaningful drives this season. The Irish defensive MVP for each of those drives was determined similarly to the offense’s method published previously (and linked below). More than one player was always eligible though I tried to limit to two most of the time, sometimes three.

“No MVP” occurred 26 times. 21 following an opponent’s touchdown.

Julian Okwara 24 — Weight is generally given to third down Wins when I choose an Drive MVP and Okwara is clearly a third-down play-wrecker. Posted a season-high (for any position, offense or defense) six vs. Pittsburgh—that’s in a nine-drive contest, mind you—which vaulted him into a lead he never relinquished.

Te’von Coney 21 — Wake Forest, Pittsburgh, and USC his only games without mention. In one (Wake) he played little; in another (USC) he was clearly exhausted.

Drue Tranquill 19 — Including six in the last two contests. Unreal considering his ankle injury.

Khalid Kareem 18 — Three mentions apiece (half his season total) vs. Michigan, Ball State, and Virginia Tech. Only missed the list against Vanderbilt and Wake Forest—back-to-back outings in which his ankle limited him—and USC.

Julian Love 17 — Season-best three at Virginia Tech. *Shared a special teams/defense nomination with Tillery following the former’s block on a Florida State PAT returned for two points.

Alohi Gilman 16 — Like Tranquill, six over the last two games. Gilman earned the first mention of the season against Michigan. Did not appear vs. Ball State, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech, or Northwestern.

Jerry Tillery 13 — Admittedly, his impact inside is taken for granted when picking the best player on a given drive. Two vs Michigan, Stanford, Navy, and USC. None against Ball State, Wake Forest, and Northwestern.

Daelin Hayes 12 — A strong total considering 48 drives occurred between his fourth (vs. Stanford in which he suffered a stinger injury in Game No. 5) and his fifth to conclude the contest against Northwestern four games later. Posted three against Florida State.

Jalen Elliott 9 — I’m guessing this is roughly eight more than last season. Elliott’s MVP nomination against Vanderbilt effectively preserved a playoff bid for the Irish.

Asmar Bilal 6 — And I’m positive this is six more than last season.
Troy Pride 6 — High-profile nominations include a fourth quarter nomination vs. Vanderbilt and his first half strip at USC last week.

Ade Ogundeji 6 — That equates to 24 from the strong side defensive end position this season. Ogundeji had two nominations against Vanderbilt.

Kurt Hinish 5 — Two vs. Ball State but also one apiece against Florida State and Syracuse in November.

Nick Coleman 3 — Most recently his 3rd Down defense against Amon-Ra St. Brown in the fourth quarter Saturday night at the Coliseum.

Jayson Ademilola 3 — Highlighted by Virginia Tech and Florida State.

Houston Griffith 2 — Wake Forest and Virginia Tech, though he probably deserved a third vs. Vanderbilt.

Justin Ademilola, Jamir Jones, Jon Jones, Shayne Simon, Devin Studstill, and Jonathan Bonner 1 apiece

No MVP chosen on 26 Opposing Drives (21 touchdowns included).

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

The DL is going to be monstrous this year. Opposing OLs and QBs will have their hands full. Kareem and Okwara especially could be dominant at DE.

Could an argument be made for the most dominant DL unit in the country or is this just the homer in me?

 

[T-Boone]

The DL is going to be monstrous this year. Opposing OLs and QBs will have their hands full. Kareem and Okwara especially could be dominant at DE.

Could an argument be made for the most dominant DL unit in the country or is this just the homer in me?

ESPN would put us 45th.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

The DL is going to be monstrous this year. Opposing OLs and QBs will have their hands full. Kareem and Okwara especially could be dominant at DE.

Could an argument be made for the most dominant DL unit in the country or is this just the homer in me?

I would say the latter. We certainly have the depth at DE to potentially be one of the top pass rushing units, but replacing Bonner and Tillery can't go unmentioned. I really like the pieces in the middle, but we replaced a first rounder up front. MTA and Hinish are the only two up front who have experience and they've certainly flashed, but they aren't Tillery.

Everyone behind them is loaded with potential but with limited-to-no experience. And we were only average against the run last year even with JB and JT.

We have the potential to be great up front but I wouldn't stretch it to saying we're #1.

 

[BabyIrish]

I would say the latter. We certainly have the depth at DE to potentially be one of the top pass rushing units, but replacing Bonner and Tillery can't go unmentioned. I really like the pieces in the middle, but we replaced a first rounder up front. MTA and Hinish are the only two up front who have experience and they've certainly flashed, but they aren't Tillery.

Everyone behind them is loaded with potential but with limited-to-no experience. And we were only average against the run last year even with JB and JT.

We have the potential to be great up front but I wouldn't stretch it to saying we're #1.

Not to nitpick but I’d say Jayson A has as much experience as MTA.

The rest I agree on. I do worry that we won’t be able to stop the run which will limit Okwara and Kareem on what they can accomplish. People keep asking if Okwara can break the season sack record but I think we should be wondering if we can get in long 2nd and 3rd situations to begin with.

 

[benneboy]

Not to nitpick but I’d say Jayson A has as much experience as MTA.

The rest I agree on. I do worry that we won’t be able to stop the run which will limit Okwara and Kareem on what they can accomplish. People keep asking if Okwara can break the season sack record but I think we should be wondering if we can get in long 2nd and 3rd situations to begin with.

There shouldn't be a problem there in theory. Hinish and MTA should be nearly as stout against the run as the Bonner Tillery combo. Its the loss of interior pass rush that we'll miss. That's all assuming the LB's are doing there job though which is a huge if at best

 

[NDMIA]

Alabama, Clemson, Michigan State, Utah, Auburn, LSU, Notre Dame, and Iowa. Those were the teams that came up on multiple different lists of best DLines in the country. Alabama doesn’t have any reason to be cause they’ve lost a bunch but they’ve got a boatload of talent and Clemson is the same way. Michigan State has some serious talent on their DLine including Naquan Jones (6’4”, 340lbs) who wanted to come to ND (wasn’t really recruited much and also don’t think he ended up with the books). Idk how or where to rank ND’s DLine compared to some of those schools but I’d say ND is firmly in the top 10 DLine’s in the country and has a shot at being one of the best DLine’s in the country when all is said and done.

 

[stlnd01]

There shouldn't be a problem there in theory. Hinish and MTA should be nearly as stout against the run as the Bonner Tillery combo. Its the loss of interior pass rush that we'll miss. That's all assuming the LB's are doing there job though which is a huge if at best

Yeah. It’s not just the DTs we lost, it’s also the interior linebackers to clean up behind them. I think Hinish is solid, MTA and Jay A can be very good, and we have some LBs with lots of potential. But we’re basically replacing multi-year starters at all four positions in the middle of our defense. That could be a little bumpy.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Anyone else think that by the start of the season Jayson A will be the start at 3 technique? Sharing reps with MTA with a 60%/40% Jayson A over MTA.

 

[Luckylucci]

Anyone else think that by the start of the season Jayson A will be the start at 3 technique? Sharing reps with MTA with a 60%/40% Jayson A over MTA.

Here's what I'd say. In the base defense, no I don't, not by the start of the season. Could Jayson makeup a lot of snaps by playing in the Nickel/Dime packages over MTA, now that I could see. I'll definitely be a development to watch throughout the season. Recently Lea mentioned they're still looking for the consistency from Jayson that would show he can play that many snaps.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Here's what I'd say. In the base defense, no I don't, not by the start of the season. Could Jayson makeup a lot of snaps by playing in the Nickel/Dime packages over MTA, now that I could see. I'll definitely be a development to watch throughout the season. Recently Lea mentioned they're still looking for the consistency from Jayson that would show he can play that many snaps.

Got ya. Thank you for the info.

 

[Wild Bill]

There shouldn't be a problem there in theory. Hinish and MTA should be nearly as stout against the run as the Bonner Tillery combo. Its the loss of interior pass rush that we'll miss. That's all assuming the LB's are doing there job though which is a huge if at best

Agree, they'll need to generate a push up the middle for the edge guys to play like they did last year. I'm not sure how they do it - maybe slide Hayes and/or Kareem inside on some downs to get something going. It'll be interesting. Could be fun to watch if it all works out.

 

[T-Boone]

this all reminds me of 2016 the year BVG did not land a single DT recruit.
That and Ewell not progressing leaves the big hole.
But there is great talent in Lacey who might play a bigger role than we are use to seeing from first years.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

this all reminds me of 2016 the year BVG did not land a single DT recruit.
That and Ewell not progressing leaves the big whole.
But there is great talent in Lacey who might play a bigger role than we are use to seeing from first years.

Where is there a whole? I don't see hole due to lack of talent. A little in experience a 3T, but that's all.