Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[gkIrish]

We've had recruiting classes averaging around #10 since 2011, meaning anything worse than top 10 is underperforming.

Well that's closer to what I actually think but I didn't want to be too controversial right away haha.

 

[woolybug25]

We've had recruiting classes averaging around #10 since 2011, meaning anything worse than top 10 is underperforming.

We've had top ten recruiting classes, which included defensive players, but that should translate to a top 10 offense or we are failing?

So these teams are failing too?

Total Offense
Alabama - 47
OSU - 30
FSU - 38


We're number 16.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

We've had recruiting classes averaging around #10 since 2011, meaning anything worse than top 10 is underperforming.

Way too many injuries and attrition to expect this.

I'm not sure even Alabama stays in the Top 10 in both offense and defense, do they? Seems to be asking a lot. It's something I'd like to look into. I don't have time right now.

 

[woolybug25]

Well that's closer to what I actually think but I didn't want to be too controversial right away haha.

I thought you said that you didn't have any issues with our offense? No?

 

[koonja]

I wish we had enough info to critique Longo's work. But since he barely works, we don't.

 

[gkIrish]

Way too many injuries and attrition to expect this.

I'm not sure even Alabama stays in the Top 10 in both offense and defense, do they? Seems to be asking a lot. It's something I'd like to look into. I don't have time right now.

Took a look at Alabama defense:

2011: 1
2012: 2
2013: 2
2014: 4

 

[wizards8507]

I'm not sure even Alabama stays in the Top 10 in both offense and defense, do they? Seems to be asking a lot. It's something I'd like to look into. I don't have time right now.

I don't think anyone would be complaining if we were #7 in one and #20 in the other. But we're not, we're 40s and 50s.

 

[ACamp1900]

Took a look at Alabama defense:

2011: 1
2012: 2
2013: 2
2014: 4

Yeah but take out all the NAIA opponents and steroids and then what do you got???

 

[gkIrish]

I thought you said that you didn't have any issues with our offense? No?

Wooly are you drunk? Wizards said we should be top 10 in both offense and defense on average since 2011 based on our recruiting classes.

I said I generally agree. How does 2015 performance reflect on 2011-2014?

You aren't understanding the difference between 2010-2014 and 2015. I don't have significant issues with 2015. But I do have issues with 2010-2014.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Took a look at Alabama defense:

2011: 1
2012: 2
2013: 2
2014: 4

Yea but their offenses haven't produced a Top 10 unit in scoring since BK has been at ND. So you're ideal team that offense AND defense need to be Top 10 isn't even doable for the Great and Almighty Bama.

 

[wizards8507]

Yea but their offenses haven't produced a Top 10 unit in scoring since BK has been at ND. So you're ideal team that offense AND defense need to be Top 10 isn't even doable for the Great and Almighty Bama.

Nobody said AND. It was "average." And there's no hard line at top 10. Once again, a #6 defense and a #22 offense (average of 14) would be plenty acceptable.

 

[gkIrish]

I don't think anyone would be complaining if we were #7 in one and #20 in the other. But we're not, we're 40s and 50s.

Bama Offense:

2011: 17
2012: 16
2013: 18
2014: 18

So they average like 2.25 on defense and 17.25 on offense.

So top 10 average team in scoring offense/defense at 9.75. That's fucking sick.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I don't think anyone would be complaining if we were #7 in one and #20 in the other. But we're not, we're 40s and 50s.

True. Which brings me back to the red zone scoring. More conversions will drive up the ppg, which drives up total scoring offense, which drives up your ranking. The defense averaging around #30 has been good enough to win games, but the offense averaging around #50 is not helping them out any. Look at how many close losses they've had. The defense let them down in some, but even if the offense converts one more score in the RZ, it's game over and ND gets the win. Fix the red zone woes, and the rest will work itself out. ND is talented enough to get to 10 wins if they get out of their own way in the RZ. And when you really break it down, it's on both the coaches and players. There's a play call (good or bad) and the actual execution of said play (good or bad).

 

[woolybug25]

Wooly are you drunk? Wizards said we should be top 10 in both offense and defense on average since 2011 based on our recruiting classes.

I said I generally agree. How does 2015 performance reflect on 2011-2014?

You aren't understanding the difference between 2010-2014 and 2015. I don't have significant issues with 2015. But I do have issues with 2010-2014.

How in bloody hell is the quote below state "we should be top 10 in both offense and defense"? Not to mention, how is that statement even logical. It's not like every top ten class is split right down the middle with highly ranked offensive and defensive players.

We've had recruiting classes averaging around #10 since 2011, meaning anything worse than top 10 is underperforming.

And again... you literally just said today that you "never said the offense is underperforming" and now you just said that verbatim.

but i'm drunk...

 

[gkIrish]

Yea but their offenses haven't produced a Top 10 unit in scoring since BK has been at ND. So you're ideal team that offense AND defense need to be Top 10 isn't even doable for the Great and Almighty Bama.

See wizards post. We are saying a team that averages 10th or better in offense and defense is meeting expectations when they recruit at a top 10 level. Obviously those are high expectations but clearly Bama is capable.

Nobody said AND. It was "average." And there's no hard line at top 10. Once again, a #6 defense and a #22 offense (average of 14) would be plenty acceptable.

 

[gkIrish]

How in bloody hell is the quote below state "we should be top 10 in both offense and defense"? Not to mention, how is that statement even logical. It's not like every top ten class is split right down the middle with highly ranked offensive and defensive players.


And again... you literally just said today that you "never said the offense is underperforming" and now you just said that verbatim.

but i'm drunk...

THE OFFENSE AND DEFENSE HAVE UNDERPERFORMED SINCE 2010 based on the stats posted a few minutes ago. They aren't materially underperforming in 2015.

As to the bolded wizards is calling for us to average top 10 when you average O and D. If he didn't make that explicit in his first post, that's what he clarified in the following post.

 

[wizards8507]

And again... you literally just said today that you "never said the offense is underperforming" and now you just said that verbatim.

but i'm drunk...

Come on man, use your skull. Obviously recruiting rankings don't break out offense and defense. So maybe our defense overperforms a bit and our offense underperforms a bit. It doesn't matter. Our offense and defense should be, TOGETHER, ON AVERAGE, somewhere NEAR top ten if we pull in top ten recruiting classes. We should also be, ON AVERAGE, a top ten ranked team. We're nowhere close in any of those.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Nobody said AND. It was "average." And there's no hard line at top 10. Once again, a #6 defense and a #22 offense (average of 14) would be plenty acceptable.

I wasn't aware. Thanks for the clarification. Thought you meant "and."

 

[IrishLion]

Bama Offense:

2011: 17
2012: 16
2013: 18
2014: 18

So they average like 2.25 on defense and 17.25 on offense.

So top 10 average team in scoring offense/defense at 9.75. That's fucking sick.

Right, but Saban wouldn't be able to put that team together at ND.

ND requires some key development, some luck, and consistency at main positions. They got that in 2012. They did not in '13 or '14 for various reasons.

Revisiting Brian Kelly and trying to use comparisons to other programs doesn't make any sense because of the differences in how things are run. Saban would never coach at ND, and even if he did, he wouldn't do much better than BK.

 

[ACamp1900]

Right, but Saban wouldn't be able to put that team together at ND.

I find it hard to believe Alabama has a better chemistry lab than Notre Dame......

 

[wizards8507]

Right, but Saban wouldn't be able to put that team together at ND.

That sentiment would be reflected in recruiting rankings, no? If it's impossible to be consistently ranked in the top ten offense and defense, wouldn't that mean it's impossible to recruit at that level (which we're doing).

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Come on man, use your skull. Obviously recruiting rankings don't break out offense and defense. So maybe our defense overperforms a bit and our offense underperforms a bit. It doesn't matter. Our offense and defense should be, TOGETHER, ON AVERAGE, somewhere NEAR top ten if we pull in top ten recruiting classes. We should also be, ON AVERAGE, a top ten ranked team. We're nowhere close in any of those.

ND is avg #30 for combined total offense and defensive units and currently sitting at #11 in the rankings. I'd say that's pretty close. It's definitely on the money to GK's "Top 30" comment and sitting on the outside of the Top 10 in team rankings. All this with a seriously shitload of injuries to 1s and 2s. Coach deserves credit where credit is due.

 

[wizards8507]

ND is avg #30 for combined total offense and defensive units and currently sitting at #11 in the rankings. I'd say that's pretty close. It's definitely on the money to GK's "Top 30" comment and sitting on the outside of the Top 10 in team rankings. All this with a seriously shitload of injuries to 1s and 2s. Coach deserves credit where credit is due.

Absolutely. Credit to recruiting and credit to the 2015 season as a whole.

 

[gkIrish]

Right, but Saban wouldn't be able to put that team together at ND.

ND requires some key development, some luck, and consistency at main positions. They got that in 2012. They did not in '13 or '14 for various reasons.

Revisiting Brian Kelly and trying to use comparisons to other programs doesn't make any sense because of the differences in how things are run. Saban would never coach at ND, and even if he did, he wouldn't do much better than BK.

Brian Kelly has been able to recruit top 10 classes on average since he started here. Therefore he has, in fact, had the talent to be a top 10 team on a consistent basis.

Yet, since 2010, we have finished in the top 15......



ONCE

And the top 25 only twice.
If that doesn't blow your mind I don't know what else I can say. Debunk that one.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

And before GK jumps all over the 2010-2014 versus 2015 argument...

Consider the attrition. Those top ranked recruiting classes would not currently be ranked that high anymore. You have to take that into consideration when setting expectations.

 

[IrishLion]

That sentiment would be reflected in recruiting rankings, no? If it's impossible to be consistently ranked in the top ten offense and defense, wouldn't that mean it's impossible to recruit at that level (which we're doing).

No, it would be reflected in the insane attrition that Notre Dame experiences.

When attrition occurs at Bama, they have an over-signed prospect or a JUCO to plug in. That helps keep them afloat through rough patches. ND does not have that.

Additionally, Bama does not have players getting suspended for entire seasons for an academic transgression that hasn't even been fully proven. ND does.

Saban doesn't deal with the things that ND does.

Throw in the bag man, easier academic requirements, and no limits on recruiting, and it's easy (to me) to see these elite coaches wouldn't fare much better at ND than BK has.

 

[IrishLion]

Brian Kelly has been able to recruit top 10 classes on average since he started here. Therefore he has, in fact, had the talent to be a top 10 team on a consistent basis.

Yet, since 2010, we have finished in the top 15......



ONCE

And the top 25 only twice.
If that doesn't blow your mind I don't know what else I can say. Debunk that one.

See my above reply to Wizards.

It concerns ND's attrtition issues, which they cannot address the same way in which Bama does, and also the various differences in the ways in which the program can operate in general.

 

[ACamp1900]

I find it hard to believe Alabama has a better chemistry lab than Notre Dame......

 

[gkIrish]

And before GK jumps all over the 2010-2014 versus 2015 argument...

Consider the attrition. Those top ranked recruiting classes would not currently be ranked that high anymore. You have to take that into consideration when setting expectations.

No, it would be reflected in the insane attrition that Notre Dame experiences.

When attrition occurs at Bama, they have an over-signed prospect or a JUCO to plug in. That helps keep them afloat through rough patches. ND does not have that.

Additionally, Bama does not have players getting suspended for entire seasons for an academic transgression that hasn't even been fully proven. ND does.

Saban doesn't deal with the things that ND does.

Throw in the bag man, easier academic requirements, and no limits on recruiting, and it's easy (to me) to see these elite coaches wouldn't fare much better at ND than BK has.

Charlie Weis averaged a top 10 class (or very close to a top 10 class) and didn't have the same attrition problems. So that tells me it's not a problem that's unique to being the coach of Notre Dame.

 

[IrishLion]

Charlie Weis averaged a top 10 class (or very close to a top 10 class) and didn't have the same attrition problems. So that tells me it's not a problem that's unique to being the coach of Notre Dame.

Weis didn't have attrition problems, true, but he had defense and player-development problems.

If BK teams were able to stay as healthy and avoid crazy circumstances as well as Weis' teams were, I feel ND would average 10 wins per season, just like you wish for.

Saban coaching at ND doesn't change the lack of JUCO's, nor the lack of over-signing, nor the rash of injuries, nor the fact that players actually get in trouble for things at ND, nor the fact that ND can't legitimately use a bag man, nor the fact that ND has to worry about recruiting guys that will have to work hard to stay eligible.