Dec 19 | ACC Championship | Clemson

[Luckylucci]

For those saying it’s a team talent issue must not have watched the first game. This is not the difference between one team outmatching the other at every position.

The difference between winning and losing is a bunch of small mistakes made by a bunch of players and coaches. The difference between winning and getting housed is Book melting down. His QBR was almost 20 pts lower than last game. If his QBR was 83.5 we’re in a competitive game and we’re not talking about being completely outclassed. By QBR metrics Book was outplayed by DJ in the first outing but barely. In this one, he was dominated by Lawrence (+24 advantage for Lawrence). A close win versus an embarrassing loss. Not rocket science for the most important position on the team.

 

[317Irish]

For those saying it’s a team talent issue must not have watched the first game. This is not the difference between one team outmatching the other at every position.

The difference between winning and losing is a bunch of small mistakes made by a bunch of players and coaches. The difference between winning and getting housed is Book melting down. His QBR was almost 20 pts lower than last game. If his QBR was 83.5 we’re in a competitive game and we’re not talking about being completely outclassed. By QBR metrics Book was outplayed by DJ in the first outing but barely. In this one, he was dominated by Lawrence (+24 advantage for Lawrence). A close win versus an embarrassing loss. Not rocket science for the most important position on the team.

Lucky, your first sentence is misleading, but it’s good to hear you have come around to the fact that ND needs more talent.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

The game plan sucked by Tommy and Lea both. I don't think they looked prepared to be honest. But whatever, still proud of the season overall...and it ain't over.

 

[Luckylucci]

Lucky, your first sentence is misleading, but it’s good to hear you have come around to the fact that ND needs more talent.

We’re not outmatched at every position and I reject the notion that the overall talent gap is as wide as the score indicates.

Otherwise, we would’ve never won the first game.

 

[ulukinatme]

For those saying it’s a team talent issue must not have watched the first game. This is not the difference between one team outmatching the other at every position.

The difference between winning and losing is a bunch of small mistakes made by a bunch of players and coaches. The difference between winning and getting housed is Book melting down. His QBR was almost 20 pts lower than last game. If his QBR was 83.5 we’re in a competitive game and we’re not talking about being completely outclassed. By QBR metrics Book was outplayed by DJ in the first outing but barely. In this one, he was dominated by Lawrence (+24 advantage for Lawrence). A close win versus an embarrassing loss. Not rocket science for the most important position on the team.

Lets not overlook our OL wasn't 100% in this one, and Clemson had some key defensive players back. We were getting dominated in the trenches this game, we weren't as physical as we were previously. Maybe it was a lack of motivation, but some of Book's struggles can likely be pinned on blocking woes, Clemson certainly came out looking for blood. A lot of blame can go around, but there's certainly a talent gap at certain positions. It's just one part of the puzzle though.

 

[IrishTusker]

We’re not outmatched at every position and I reject the notion that the overall talent gap is as wide as the score indicates.

Otherwise, we would’ve never won the first game.

We beat their B team at home in double OT.

 

[317Irish]

I love watching Kyren Williams. I think he has been just about as important to our team’s success as Ian has this year. His balance is incredible and his grit is something I wish more players had..... I’m currently watching Bama and Najee Harris. I don’t get how people don’t realize if we had more guys like him we would have more success. The Ian Book’s and Kyren Williams’ of the world will let us enjoy an awesome “ND” season. Getting a handful of top 50 players on a yearly basis will allow us to compete with the top few teams

 

[NDRock]

We’re not outmatched at every position and I reject the notion that the overall talent gap is as wide as the score indicates.

Otherwise, we would’ve never won the first game.

Agree, unfortunately QB play is pretty important and they have the best.

 

[Luckylucci]

We beat their B team at home in double OT.

You are drunk or not well, if that’s how you think of it. They start 22 guys and were down 4. We start 22 and we were down 3 today. So they beat our B squad. Ok cool, we’ll go with that.

The difference in getting blown out when they only score 34 pts is not because Lawrence is a really good DB.

 

[NDRock]

I love watching Kyren Williams. I think he has been just about as important to our team’s success as Ian has this year. His balance is incredible and his grit is something I wish more players had..... I’m currently watching Bama and Najee Harris. I don’t get how people don’t realize if we had more guys like him we would have more success. The Ian Book’s and Kyren Williams’ of the world will let us enjoy an awesome “ND” season. Getting a handful of top 50 players on a yearly basis will allow us to compete with the top few teams

Because people are delusional and think life is like a sports movie. Think we can win with spirit and Notre Dame lore.

 

[NDRock]

You are drunk or not well, if that’s how you think of it. They start 22 guys and were down 3. We start 22 and we were down 2 today. So they beat our B squad. Ok cool, we’ll go with that.

The difference in getting blown out when they only score 34 pts is not because Lawrence is a really good DB.

It’s not, our QB played the game of his life last time. Today he was mediocre.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

We beat their B team at home in double OT.

Do you even believe what you just typed? Really you think that iteration of Clemson was that much different? And even so, is it NDs fault they couldn't field their "a team"? Every game matters in the course of a football season though they may not all carry the same weight. ND beat Clemson once this year, that's fact. Clemson had a few injuries, that's football. The beauty contest of college football has gotten a bit ridiculous when wins are discredited because of arguments like this.

 

[317Irish]

Because people are delusional and think life is like a sports movie. Think we can win with spirit and Notre Dame lore.

Top 20 players on the field (think about where they go in their future draft classes)... how many are from ND and how many are from Clemson? ND vs Ohio State? ND vs Bama? We are perhaps currently at our best talent level and we still lose all of those. I love that we are ascending, but no frickin way we can say we can match talent with the top teams...

 

[bkess8]

Just some thoughts...

We got exposed when it counted.

Last game against Clemson our DBs were burnt numerous times and today the same happened. Clemson WRs were wide open all day today.

We had zero pass rush and really had no pass rush last time either. It showed with Sunshines experience that our blitzes couldn't get to him in time to make a difference.

Our recruiting is sub par where it counts. Those positions are WRs, DBs, and QB. We do well recruiting at all other positions and have even developed decent depth however we haven't developed in most skill positions.

Kelly has it figured out when we play teams that don't matter however when was the last time we came out in a big game and rolled?

 

[317Irish]

Just some thoughts...

We got exposed when it counted.

Last game against Clemson our DBs were burnt numerous times and today the same happened. Clemson WRs were wide open all day today.

We had zero pass rush and really had no pass rush last time either. It showed with Sunshines experience that our blitzes couldn't get to him in time to make a difference.

Our recruiting is sub par where it counts. Those positions are WRs, DBs, and QB. We do well recruiting at all other positions and have even developed decent depth however we haven't developed in most skill positions.

Kelly has it figured out when we play teams that don't matter however when was the last time we came out in a big game and rolled?

I agree with every single thing you just said.

 

[bkess8]

Fact is that Alabama and Clemson are AAA farm systems.

Ohio State is AA.

Notre Dame is A at best on a good year.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Today just continues to pile it on.

It's pretty damn disheartening when literally every conference championship game has been competitive, except ours.

Iowa State and Oklahoma played to a 6 point affair that came down to a final drive.

NW was leading Ohio State for a good chunk of the game.

Florida is hanging tough with Alabama and it's a one score game late in the 4th.

And yet, #2 v. #3, and we get routed from almost the word go.

So once again, ND gets to be the center of attention for all the wrong reasons this weekend.

 

[317Irish]

Fact is that Alabama and Clemson are AAA farm systems.

Ohio State is AA.

Notre Dame is A at best on a good year.

Ohio State is as big league (or AAA by your ranking system) as it gets. Just look at their last 5 or so draft classes

 

[Crazy Balki]

For those saying it’s a team talent issue must not have watched the first game. This is not the difference between one team outmatching the other at every position.

The difference between winning and losing is a bunch of small mistakes made by a bunch of players and coaches. The difference between winning and getting housed is Book melting down. His QBR was almost 20 pts lower than last game. If his QBR was 83.5 we’re in a competitive game and we’re not talking about being completely outclassed. By QBR metrics Book was outplayed by DJ in the first outing but barely. In this one, he was dominated by Lawrence (+24 advantage for Lawrence). A close win versus an embarrassing loss. Not rocket science for the most important position on the team.

I agree.

ND can definitely stand to recruit better receiver talent, but QB is where we need to make the most strides. A guy like Ian is going to get you to 10 wins consistently, but it's not enough when you are going up against the likes of Alabama or Clemson.

Look at Florida with Trask. Yeah, they're probably gonna lose this, but even when they were down 18, they hung in there, because Trask had the ability to dig them out of that hole. Book doesn't have that ability. We fall behind a couple scores, it's pretty much over. Even when we had stellar receiving talent in Claypool and Boykin, it didn't matter.

 

[Junkhead]

My biggest takeaway from ND vs Clemson game 1 vs 2 is the difference that T. Lawrence made running the ball. The ND offense obviously misses Patterson, but the ground game was pretty close to opposite from game 1 to 2. The ND offensive game plan wasn't great, looking back, did they even attempt 1 screen in all that pressure? Biggest takeaway was that Clemson was looking for payback and got it. ND would have needed some extra motivation, a top notch gameplan, and to execute flawlessly, and they did none of that. ND is a top 3-10 team, which is nothing to be embarrassed about. (Think Davie or Willingham, or Weis D era). Lastly, is the distraction and possible lack of motivation caused by the loss of Clark Lea to Vandy. No matter the final result, the fact that he is leaving has to be a drag on the program and the players that bought into his system.

 

[Sea Turtle]

The game plan sucked by Tommy and Lea both. I don't think they looked prepared to be honest. But whatever, still proud of the season overall...and it ain't over.

I'm shocked that our coordinators weren't ready for a big postseason game.

Saban would rip their faces off.

 

[NDRock]

I agree.

ND can definitely stand to recruit better receiver talent, but QB is where we need to make the most strides. A guy like Ian is going to get you to 10 wins consistently, but it's not enough when you are going up against the likes of Alabama or Clemson.

Look at Florida with Trask. Yeah, they're probably gonna lose this, but even when they were down 18, they hung in there, because Trask had the ability to dig them out of that hole. Book doesn't have that ability. We fall behind a couple scores, it's pretty much over. Even when we had stellar receiving talent in Claypool and Boykin, it didn't matter.

It’s always our offense. Go back at look at the Georgia games, Playoff loss to Clemson, today’s game. Even the 2012 Bama game or 2015 Clemson. The offense always plays bad to mediocre. The first game against Clemson was the only time we reached 30 or more in a big game that I can remember.

 

[BilboBaggins]

The game plan sucked by Tommy and Lea both. I don't think they looked prepared to be honest. But whatever, still proud of the season overall...and it ain't over.

I don't agree with this at all. I think Rees did a lot of creative stuff out of the gate and then the game just got away from the Irish. They moved the ball and IMO Rees recognized that stretch plays with Kyren Williams will get keyed on so he was running sweeps and whatnot.

The reality of the matter is this WR corp is barely P5 material. This is the worst receiving corp in Kelly's tenure and probably since....2007? Yes they can catch the ball but no one gets separation.

And frankly, and I hate to harp on this, but Ian Book couldn't take advantage of it if he did have a great corp. The passing game consists of crossing routes and backyard ball.

When is the last time you saw Ian Book rifle a pass into a window? Or hit even a slant route?

Rees and Kelly have to take a lot out of the playbook because Ian Book isn't that sort of QB. And when you play a second game against an elite coaching staff with elite athletes, they're going to take your limited passing tree away from you.

In short, I think Tommy Rees and this offense have gotten every drop of potential out of Ian Book and this WR corp.

Without the OL getting an interior push you're going to continue to see teams with athletic CBs dominate our mediocre WRs like white on rice and Book will continue to roll to the right and complete a pass within 18" of the sideline...

 

[Sea Turtle]

I don't agree with this at all. I think Rees did a lot of creative stuff out of the gate and then the game just got away from the Irish. They moved the ball and IMO Rees recognized that stretch plays with Kyren Williams will get keyed on so he was running sweeps and whatnot.

The reality of the matter is this WR corp is barely P5 material. This is the worst receiving corp in Kelly's tenure and probably since....2007? Yes they can catch the ball but no one gets separation.

And frankly, and I hate to harp on this, but Ian Book couldn't take advantage of it if he did have a great corp. The passing game consists of crossing routes and backyard ball.

When is the last time you saw Ian Book rifle a pass into a window? Or hit even a slant route?

Rees and Kelly have to take a lot out of the playbook because Ian Book isn't that sort of QB. And when you play a second game against an elite coaching staff with elite athletes, they're going to take your limited passing tree away from you.

In short, I think Tommy Rees and this offense have gotten every drop of potential out of Ian Book and this WR corp.

Without the OL getting an interior push you're going to continue to see teams with athletic CBs dominate our mediocre WRs like white on rice and Book will continue to roll to the right and complete a pass within 18" of the sideline...

Why can't our line get a push against elite defenses? Isn't our o line elite? Doesn't Bama thrash elite teams on the ground every fucking year? Do we have a STrength and Conditioning issue?

 

[NorthDakota]

Why can't our line get a push against elite defenses? Isn't our o line elite? Doesn't Bama thrash elite teams on the ground every fucking year? Do we have a STrength and Conditioning issue?

Our o-line play fell bigly after Patterson got hurt.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

Why can't our line get a push against elite defenses? Isn't our o line elite? Doesn't Bama thrash elite teams on the ground every fucking year? Do we have a STrength and Conditioning issue?

You can’t load the box and sell out vs Bama because they have four first round picks playing receiver.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Why can't our line get a push against elite defenses? Isn't our o line elite? Doesn't Bama thrash elite teams on the ground every fucking year? Do we have a STrength and Conditioning issue?

Patterson was playing at an All-ACC, sniffing all-American level and Lugg is...not that. We saw North Carolina and Syracuse penetrate the OL in his absence.

The OL was probably the best in the country, now it's still very good but when the other team has elite talent and you have a hole at center it shows.

An OL plays as one mind and taking out a center and replacing him with someone else can definitely cause growing pains, and it has.

Then it just snowballed like in 2018 and the playcalling had to get desperate.

 

[GATTACA!]

It’s always our offense. Go back at look at the Georgia games, Playoff loss to Clemson, today’s game. Even the 2012 Bama game or 2015 Clemson. The offense always plays bad to mediocre. The first game against Clemson was the only time we reached 30 or more in a big game that I can remember.

Because our QBs are at best above average. Book is not good enough to win a playoff game. It took the game of his life to beat a hobbled Clemson in double OT.

We need a 5 star QB. We need our Watson/Lawrence/Tua/Fields/Hurts/Mayfield/Murray/Uiagalelei/Trask/Jones/etc

Until we get one of those types of dudes we will never be more than a tier 2 program.

The thing that's concerning is that BK seems content to go with workman like QBs like Book.

 

[BilboBaggins]

You can’t load the box and sell out vs Bama because they have four first round picks playing receiver.

He's talking about offense?

Notre Dame vs Alabama would get ugly. Notre Dame cannot cover those WRs or compete in a shootout.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Because our QBs are at best above average. Book is not good enough to win a playoff game. It took the game of his life to beat a hobbled Clemson in double OT.

We need a 5 star QB. We need our Watson/Lawrence/Tua/Fields/Hurts/Mayfield/Murray/Uiagalelei/Trask/Jones/etc

Until we get one of those types of dudes we will never be more than a tier 2 program.

The thing that's concerning is that BK seems content to go with workman like QBs like Book.

I don't think Kelly has had much of a choice with Ian Book. More concerning to me is the lack of development at WR. It's looking like the incoming freshmen and RS-freshmen can change that though, there needs to be a serious upgrade of talent there.