COVID-19

PerthDomer

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True, but by origin I meant whether it was man-made or not. If man made, knowing how it was made may help in finding the fix. Yet there was/has been little or no urgency or desire to force the Chinese to open up.

We found newer closer relatives to COVID in Laos with spike proteins as good at binding to human receptors as the original Wuhan strain. This makes natural development even more likely than it was in the summer. Additionally even if it came from a lab (unlikely) that doesn't impact whether you should get a vaccine or not...
 

ab2cmiller

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We found newer closer relatives to COVID in Laos with spike proteins as good at binding to human receptors as the original Wuhan strain. This makes natural development even more likely than it was in the summer. Additionally even if it came from a lab (unlikely) that doesn't impact whether you should get a vaccine or not...

Regardless of if it came from a lab or if it came from natural development, China has stonewalled and not been forthcoming with much info, info that could've helped the world get a better hold of this virus. I have no clue why we would continue to "partner" with them. I'm sure they can be trusted.
 

PerthDomer

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Regardless of if it came from a lab or if it came from natural development, China has stonewalled and not been forthcoming with much info, info that could've helped the world get a better hold of this virus. I have no clue why we would continue to "partner" with them. I'm sure they can be trusted.

We've been more hostile with them and they've lost standing around the world... what does that have to do with vaccination (they behaved similarly during SARS. It's a weakness if their political system.)
 

ab2cmiller

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We've been more hostile with them and they've lost standing around the world... what does that have to do with vaccination (they behaved similarly during SARS. It's a weakness if their political system.)

It has nothing to do with vaccines. Just expressing frustration over China's response to countries that have sought additional information.
 

phork

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Regardless of if it came from a lab or if it came from natural development, China has stonewalled and not been forthcoming with much info, info that could've helped the world get a better hold of this virus. I have no clue why we would continue to "partner" with them. I'm sure they can be trusted.

Why continue to partner? Capitalism. Make your goods for dirt cheap sell for ridiculous profit margins. Unless you are speaking specifically in medical terms.
 

ulukinatme

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I'm guessing you think it's related to the booster and not a coincidence?

I would think so, nothing else has changed in diet or otherwise for her recently. It is weird that it would pop back up after 25 years and not after the previous two shots, but auto immune disorders are strange like that.
 

phork

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I would think so, nothing else has changed in diet or otherwise for her recently. It is weird that it would pop back up after 25 years and not after the previous two shots, but auto immune disorders are strange like that.

My wife had peanut butter, peanuts, peanut products her whole life, until age 16 she became deathly allergic.
 

Irish#1

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I want to sincerely apologize to PerthDomer. I should have controlled my emotions and presented my points in a less abrasive manner. I do not know PerthDomer and there is no reason for me to impugn him/her or question his/her qualifications if that was implied by my comments. I disagree with him/her regarding vaccination.

Do you have kids?

Can you compare the years of research and clinical trials for the chickenpox vaccine with this "vaccine"? How many human clinical trials have been performed on mRNA vaccines? How many vaccines have been mandated for viruses that we have yet to determine its origin?

I find it amusing when someone ask a question, you respond with questions and don't answer their question.
 
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Valpodoc85

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True, but by origin I meant whether it was man-made or not. If man made, knowing how it was made may help in finding the fix. Yet there was/has been little or no urgency or desire to force the Chinese to open up.

From a medical perspective it doesn't really matter. If by man made you mean gain of function research then all they are doing is provoking the virus to evolve. If by man made you mean completely new virus that shares little with other corona viruses and designed to cause damage, that is pure conspiracy and without evidence
 

Irish#1

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If she's your doctor, you might want to start looking for a new one.

Covid vaccine holdouts are caving to mandates — then scrambling to ‘undo’ their shots

As mandates spread, anti-vaccine groups have been trafficking in pseudoscience treatments meant to remove or counteract the vaccines. Experts say it's like trying to "unring a bell."Some anti-vaccine groups are embracing pseudoscience "detox" treatments for people who were vaccinated because of mandates.

Chelsea Stahl / NBC News; Getty ImagesNov. 12, 2021, 6:00 AM EST / Updated Nov. 12, 2021, 7:43 AM EST
By Ben Collins

In a TikTok video that has garnered hundreds of thousands of views, Dr. Carrie Madej outlined the ingredients for a bath she said will “detox the vaxx” for people who have given into Covid-19 vaccine mandates.

The ingredients in the bath are mostly not harmful, although the supposed benefits attached to them are entirely fictional. Baking soda and epsom salts, she falsely claims, will provide a “radiation detox” to remove radiation Madej falsely believes is activated by the vaccine. Bentonite clay will add a “major pull of poison,” she says, based on a mistaken idea in anti-vaccine communities that toxins can be removed from the body with certain therapies.

Then, recommends adding in one cup of borax, a cleaning agent that’s been banned as a food additive by the Food and Drug Administration, to “take nanotechnologies out of you.”

In reality, in addition to being potentially harmful as a skin and eye irritant, a borax “detox bath” will not remove the effects of the Covid vaccine from your body.

The video is one of several methods anti-vaccine influencers and communities on social media have in recent weeks suggested to their many followers who have capitulated and received the Covid shot. Anti-vaccine message boards are now littered with users caving to societal pressure or work mandates and receiving a coronavirus vaccination.

“Once you’re injected, the lifesaving vaccination process has already begun. You can’t unring a bell. It’s just not physically possible,” said Angela Rasmussen, a virologist and adjunct professor at the University of Saskatchewan in Canada.

Detox remedies and regimens have been staples of the anti-vaccine movement for years. Long before Covid, anti-vaccine influencers and alternative health entrepreneurs promoted unproven and sometimes dangerous treatments they claimed would rid children of the alleged toxins that lingered after routine childhood immunizations.

Children, many with autism, have been subjected to these disproven cures by way of parents convinced that they are alleviating suffering caused by heavy metal poisoning from vaccines. The often-costly remedies have included restrictive diets, supplements, chelation and hyperbaric chambers, as well as more dangerous home remedies.

With Covid came a new group of believers.

Now, some anti-vaccine groups are recommending that people who have been vaccinated should immediately self-administer cupping therapy (an ancient form of alternative medicine that involves creating suction on the skin) to speed up the “removal of the vax content” including first making small incisions on the injection site with a razor. Other memes give instructions on how to “un-inject” shots using syringes.

Both methods are potentially dangerous and would not remove the vaccine once it is administered, Rasmussen said.

“The transaction process for the mRNA vaccine is fairly quick. Basically, by the time you get out to your car, sorry, the magic has already started,” she said.

The newfound virality of “vaccine detoxes” is also a strategy by anti-vaccine influencers and groups to steel themselves for a reality in which 70 percent of Americans have been fully vaccinated against the coronavirus — even though their dire warnings of mass death and infertility never came to fruition.

“This illustrates how these anti-vaccine communities are shifting and pushing these claims toward vaccinated people,” said Ciaran O’Connor, a disinformation researcher for the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, an anti-extremism nonprofit group based in London.


O’Connor recently released a report, titled “Jabbers’ Remorse,” about the virality of vaccine detoxes, specifically on TikTok, where Madej’s “detox” bath has made the leap to nonfringe parts of the social media platform.

Madej’s video was removed by TikTok last month, but the video’s duets — TikTok’s resharing feature, in which other users add reactions or context with the original video — have received hundreds of thousands of views. One duet lists a recipe of Madej’s bath next to her speech. Others show a TikTok user drawing a bath, or pouring out the ingredients into a container.

Representatives at TikTok did not respond to requests for comment.

“TikTok is being used as designed here, but the way it’s been designed is allowing these misinformed claims to proliferate on the platform,” O’Connor said.

Madej did not respond to repeated requests for comment. She is an osteopathic internal medicine doctor who has propagated a variety of debunked theories about the Covid vaccines and posted to Twitter about a variety of other conspiracy theories, including QAnon. She describes herself as “practicing the truth in Jesus through medicine.”

It is unclear what Madej means by “nanotechnologies,” but on a podcast called “Reawaken America” she falsely claimed there is a “liquified computing system” inside coronavirus vaccines. She has also claimed the vaccines are a “gateway to transhumanism.” Her theories have been broadly fact-checked as false, including earning a “Pants on Fire” rating from Politifact.

While Rasmussen is worried about users experimenting with chemical baths, she said she believes it’s a sign that vaccine mandates are largely working, and anti-vaccine influencers are adapting to a new reality.

“I think it is actually a good sign that these ‘how to undo your vaccine’ videos are taking off,” she said. “It suggests that a lot of those people who previously were saying ‘vaccines are terrible and I will never do it’ are, actually, doing it.”

Without the borax, Rasmussen said the bath is not a harmful idea after receiving the vaccine, but it won’t do anything for the nonexistent “radiation” or “nanotechnologies.”

“Take the bath and kick back and relax with a glass of wine, knowing that I’m safe from a potentially lethal viral infection,” she said.

Still, not all anti-vaccine communities are giving in, even with the false promise of a detox. In anti-vaccine Facebook groups like “Educate Before You Vaccinate,” comments still largely and incorrectly tell users that the vaccine is an irreversible path to government tracking, infertility or death.

Some provided hope with false cures. One user, who told the group her boyfriend “HAD to get a covid shot” and wondered how to “detox his body” was told to follow Madej’s borax bath instructions. Another user told her to look into drinking “Miracle Mineral Solution,” which is bleach and can be fatal if ingested.
 

PerthDomer

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[TWEET]https://twitter.com/mattwridley/status/1461232613067210757[/TWEET]

He made an assertion with no argument. SARS 1 came from bats in Yunnan province and the epidemic started in Guandong province. The distance from Yunnan to Hong Kong and Wuhan is pretty similar (about a 20 hour drive)
 
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phork

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He made an assertion with no argument. SARS 1 came from bats in Yunnan province and the epidemic started in Guandong province. The distance from Yunnan to Hong Kong and Wuhan is pretty similar (about a 20 hour drive)

But...Conspiracy to oust Trump. Or something.
 

BleedBlueGold

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Just learned a bad local story. Anti-mask, Anti-vax, covid-denier husband and wife all contracted covid in Sept. Their kids had it too. They knowingly sent their covid positive 8th grader on a class trip to DC. He got the entire bus sick w/ Covid (I haven't heard the results of any contact tracing beyond that). Everyone in the family recovered, except the dad. He died two days ago. A middle aged, healthy man leaves his kids fatherless and his wife husbandless....for what...?
 

PerthDomer

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Just learned a bad local story. Anti-mask, Anti-vax, covid-denier husband and wife all contracted covid in Sept. Their kids had it too. They knowingly sent their covid positive 8th grader on a class trip to DC. He got the entire bus sick w/ Covid (I haven't heard the results of any contact tracing beyond that). Everyone in the family recovered, except the dad. He died two days ago. A middle aged, healthy man leaves his kids fatherless and his wife husbandless....for what...?

To exercise his constitutional right to own the libs
 

TorontoGold

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To exercise his constitutional right to own the libs

Always important to remember, human's are perfect in their ability to assess personal risk. I wish there was a profession that received intense training and education to provide people with advice on medical decisions.
 

PerthDomer

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Always important to remember, human's are perfect in their ability to assess personal risk. I wish there was a profession that received intense training and education to provide people with advice on medical decisions.

You asked why. If I had the family as patients and they asked me up front if lack of vaccination caused his death I'd say yes. If grieving I'd support them. But the anti vaccine/vaccine skeptical movement in general? F em. I feel bad that the dad died like I feel bad for my unhelmeted ATV crashes. At the same time they have personal responsibility in this.
 

TorontoGold

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You asked why. If I had the family as patients and they asked me up front if lack of vaccination caused his death I'd say yes. If grieving I'd support them. But the anti vaccine/vaccine skeptical movement in general? F em. I feel bad that the dad died like I feel bad for my unhelmeted ATV crashes. At the same time they have personal responsibility in this.

I should have put italics lol. Anti-vaxxers are possibly the dumbest people on the planet.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I should have put italics lol. Anti-vaxxers are possibly the dumbest people on the planet.

This is really shortsighted. Some people aren't anti vaccine but are anti mandate.

There's also a reason only 20% of pregnant women in the US (my wife included) got the vaccine. It is way too early for any of us to know what types of effects the vaccine might have on fertility or the baby.
 

NDPhilly

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Of my friend group of 6 25-year olds, 3 have had symptomatic breakthrough cases in the last month. Their symptoms were no different / more mild than my own when I got covid in April 2020. Needless to say we are all pretty jaded at this point.

yeah yeah breakthrough cases and mild are rare etc etc
 

ulukinatme

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This is really shortsighted. Some people aren't anti vaccine but are anti mandate.

There's also a reason only 20% of pregnant women in the US (my wife included) got the vaccine. It is way too early for any of us to know what types of effects the vaccine might have on fertility or the baby.

I agree. The adults in my family are vaccinated, but I'm not about to push this on my kids when they're not at risk. It would be one thing if it provided immunity or prevented transmission like a real vaccine, but it doesn't. You can definitely be pro-jab and anti-mandate. This isn't a measles vaccine, people should be able to make the call on whether they get it or not.
 

PerthDomer

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I agree. The adults in my family are vaccinated, but I'm not about to push this on my kids when they're not at risk. It would be one thing if it provided immunity or prevented transmission like a real vaccine, but it doesn't. You can definitely be pro-jab and anti-mandate. This isn't a measles vaccine, people should be able to make the call on whether they get it or not.

Pregnant women are hugely at risk with COVID. Rates of still birth with delta are 4 times baseline, preterm delivery as high, and mortality is much larger. Study after study shows it's safe and non live vaccines are universally safe in pregnancy.
 

zelezo vlk

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So now we've got this "Omnicron" (lol) variant to keep in mind. Gonna be another winter where we stay in the whole time? I'm holding out on my booster for my company to confirm that they're offering flex PTO to get it just like they offered for the OG vaccine.
 

PerthDomer

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So now we've got this "Omnicron" (lol) variant to keep in mind. Gonna be another winter where we stay in the whole time? I'm holding out on my booster for my company to confirm that they're offering flex PTO to get it just like they offered for the OG vaccine.

Omicron likely won't be the dominant strain here for a few months. We'll have a better idea on what it means in the coming weeks.
 

NorthDakota

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So now we've got this "Omnicron" (lol) variant to keep in mind. Gonna be another winter where we stay in the whole time? I'm holding out on my booster for my company to confirm that they're offering flex PTO to get it just like they offered for the OG vaccine.

I doubt it. People are checked out more and more.
 

PerthDomer

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I doubt it. People are checked out more and more.

The questions are 1 do we need a variant specific vaccine, and what will this do to hospital capacity. Hope pharma is readying vaccines, MABs, and the new oral meds. My guess is this gives us another wave that's less bad than delta due to accrued vaccines/natural immunity.

If there's significant immune escape/the R0 is significantly higher the big lower is china. Their vaccine is weak and they have no natural immunity. If this is measles contagious they don't have a way to stop the spread, no matter how draconian their lockdowns.
 

yankeehater

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The questions are 1 do we need a variant specific vaccine, and what will this do to hospital capacity. Hope pharma is readying vaccines, MABs, and the new oral meds. My guess is this gives us another wave that's less bad than delta due to accrued vaccines/natural immunity.

If there's significant immune escape/the R0 is significantly higher the big lower is china. Their vaccine is weak and they have no natural immunity. If this is measles contagious they don't have a way to stop the spread, no matter how draconian their lockdowns.

According to the doctor in South Africa who discovered the variant and in speaking to their colleagues around the country, the symptoms they are seeing are very mild and have not led to hospitalizations. Hopefully, that continues in the other nations.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/29/omicron-covid-variant-symptoms-heres-what-we-know-so-far.html
 

ulukinatme

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I'm genuinely curious how they know what strain is particularly dominant at any one time since the tests don't tell you what strain you have. They've got to be doing some kind of random sampling in a lab I would think using positive tests. Are they checking each region, and what's the sample size if so?
 

PerthDomer

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According to the doctor in South Africa who discovered the variant and in speaking to their colleagues around the country, the symptoms they are seeing are very mild and have not led to hospitalizations. Hopefully, that continues in the other nations.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/29/omicron-covid-variant-symptoms-heres-what-we-know-so-far.html

1. The average age in South Africa is 27. You would have to see thousands of patients to have an idea of how mild this is.

2. They still have relatively low numbers compared to prior surges.

3. WSJ is reporting higher levels of pediatric hospitalizations than prior waves at this point. That implies increased severity at some level.
 
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