COVID-19

[Cackalacky2.0]

What we are doing now, is what Sweden did the whole time, minus the face mask requirements in some states. Precautions taken, trying to adhere to social distancing etc. What Sweden didn't do is any lockdowns.

I didn't think that Sweden required face masks.

I mistyped the mask requirement and fixed it. The Nation did not require masks but many institutions recommended using them in public.

I was under a "lockdown" in SC but it wasnt a a "lockdown." There were still places that stayed open. I worked form home while several people at my office continued working at the office. I could still go to all the places I needed to to do whatever i needed. Not sure that meets the criteria of a "lockdown". Plus whatever directive our state made it lasted for less than a month and they opened all things back up again. Then the outbreak happened.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

What we are doing now, is what Sweden did the whole time, minus the face mask requirements in some states. Precautions taken, trying to adhere to social distancing etc. What Sweden didn't do is any lockdowns.

I didn't think that Sweden required face masks.

Edit to address Sweden losing a ton of people..... It's true that they lost a lot of people, a lot of that was the barbarian way that they treated the elderly. If you were over 75, you had almost no chance being admitted to an ICU. They routinely administered morphine and basically left them to die.

Yeah I dont know why they are held in high regard in their response. The bootstrap people love it. I'm also fairly certain a specific group of US politicians (I wont name the party becasue one party said the bad thing out loud and in public and one party didnt and i dont want to be accused of being biased) are on record saying that the elderly dying was just gonna have to happen and that grandma would be willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good. Thats fucking gross.

For me, a wealthy and technologically advanced country should have gone the route of South Korea. We could have totally done it that way.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I mistyped the mask requirement and fixed it. The Nation did not require masks but many institutions recommended using them in public.

I was under a "lockdown" in SC but it wasnt a a "lockdown." There were still places that stayed open. I worked form home while several people at my office continued working at the office. I could still go to all the places I needed to to do whatever i needed. Not sure that meets the criteria of a "lockdown". Plus whatever directive our state made it lasted for less than a month and they opened all things back up again. Then the outbreak happened.

I agree that nobody did "full lockdowns", but whatever we did, was certainly far more than what Sweden did.

Even if you want to argue that lockdowns were effective, the states that implemented them before real breakouts occurred were a bit foolish, unless they were willing to keep lockdowns in place until a vaccine is in place.

As I've heard some people say .... the virus is going to virus. The states that weren't hit initially and did lockdowns, were certainly going to get hit when they reopened

We've certainly learned a lot along the way. We know far more about the virus now than what we did then. I'm willing to grant a tremendous amount of slack to those in power who made the choice for lockdowns. They certainly seemed wise at the time. They even may have been necessary in quite a few states to make sure that the hospital system was not overrun. But given what we know now, any future lockdowns would seem unwise unless that hospital system was being overrun.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I agree that nobody did "full lockdowns", but whatever we did, was certainly far more than what Sweden did.

Even if you want to argue that lockdowns were effective, the states that implemented them before real breakouts occurred were a bit foolish, unless they were willing to keep lockdowns in place until a vaccine is in place.

As I've heard some people say .... the virus is going to virus. The states that weren't hit initially and did lockdowns, were certainly going to get hit when they reopened

We've certainly learned a lot along the way. We know far more about the virus now than what we did then. I'm willing to grant a tremendous amount of slack to those in power who made the choice for lockdowns. They certainly seemed wise at the time. They even may have been necessary in quite a few states to make sure that the hospital system was not overrun. But given what we know now, any future lockdowns would seem unwise unless that hospital system was being overrun.

Not disagreeing but i don’t know if I can say our lockdown could be considered doing far more than Sweden did. Considering in my anecdotal evidence, the intent was never fully implemented. People still went on the stores without masks. Still gathers in large groups and parties and then traveled to unaffected areas bring diseases with them. All in all we could have done better but I don’t think it was the lockdown making it worse and indicated in the gummibear tweets. We can’t judge that because it was never done in the manner it should have and in the places when it was needed.

 

[Irishize]

THat author ( not sure of his qualifications) seem sto indicate that Sweden didnt lock down (or take extra precautions) and the USA did lockdown and went to extremes.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53498133#:~:text=What%20was%20Sweden's%20strategy%3F,possible%20and%20avoiding%20public%20transport.

I dont think I would classify what the USA did as a whole could be classified as ANY significant difference to what Sweden did. I would also argue the USA was much worse at following social distancing (which Sweden did do), keeping in groups less than 50 (which Sweden also mandated), and wearing mask in public (not recommended by Sweden). I see inside Sweden there is still debate over whether wearing mask wold have helped lower their death toll.

The article linked above indicates as far as herd immunity goes, only 6% of their population has antibodies and even that number may not be accurate as its hard to measure.

What am I missing? We did nearly the same approach, just more poorly.

South Korea didnt implement any stay at home orders or restrictions and rather tested, identified, contained and treated. They crushed the curve immediately. To me this is what should have happened.

I dont understand why people are holding Sweden up as the great example. They lost a ton of people.

In America, it was ok to allow groups of over 50 provided they were protesting. Protests/riots = COVID-19 immunity. Weddings/Funerals/Church gatherings = death to all

And yes Trump was an idiot to have an indoor rally in Tulsa with hundreds of people. He can’t have it both ways either.

 

[dublinirish]

In America, it was ok to allow groups of over 50 provided they were protesting. Protests/riots = COVID-19 immunity. Weddings/Funerals/Church gatherings = death to all

And yes Trump was an idiot to have an indoor rally in Tulsa with hundreds of people. He can’t have it both ways either.

Large majority of folks who protested wore masks and the majority of protests took place outdoors. Also there is no evidence to suggest any coronavirus case spikes were caused by these protests.

 

[Irishize]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/24/health/fda-blood-plasma.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage





<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I have been criticized for remarks I made Sunday night about the benefits of convalescent plasma. The criticism is entirely justified. What I should have said better is that the data show a relative risk reduction not an absolute risk reduction.</p>— Dr. Stephen M. Hahn (@SteveFDA) <a href="https://twitter.com/SteveFDA/status/1298071620414824452?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 25, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If Trump wasn’t trying to score political points and let actual medical experts deliver this data, it may not be getting summarily dismissed the way it (Plaquenil) have been dismissed.

I heard an anecdotal case from my boss in Alabama whose friend’s 88 y/o grandmother was in the hospital for COVID showing no improvement. She received infusion of convalescent plasma and saw immediate improvement. Does that mean it’s been proven safe & effective by the FDA? No. More study needs to be done.

Same w/ hydroxychloriquine. Every poster on this thread should know Jacob Lacey is a DL for ND. His father was on the ND Insider Pod of Gold recounting his experience with COVID-19. He was not doing well until his Cardiologist looked at his condition and insisted on putting him on Plaquenil. It led to what became a full recovery. That’s straight from the person’s mouth. Go listen to the podcast as he did a great job describing his journey. And to his credit, he understood that the jury is still out on the safety/efficacy of plaquenil but FOR HIM it saved his life. Listen for yourself before posting your Trump is Hitler memes.

If this nation wasn’t so divided politically, therapeutics like Plaquenil & convalescent plasma could be discussed and considered based on benefits/risk until more data is collected. Trump is just as responsible for that divide as the MSM & the Dems.

 

[Legacy]

You completely missed my point. Read that Twitter thread again. Had Trump instead adopted a pro-mask/ pro-lockdown position, the DNC 100% would have taken up the arguments currently being advanced by the right in opposition. Some red states may have locked down longer, and some blue states may have opened up sooner, but our national response would not have been any more coordinated. A President Clinton would not magically make the American people more united or willing to sacrifice for abstract goods like "public health". Trump didn't deploy the National Guard or roll in the tanks to enforce compliance with his preferred response to the pandemic. Clinton wouldn't have either.

Why? Because the people who have real influence in Washington are getting very rich off the present state of affairs. Sorry to burst your bubble, but all this nonsense about "respecting experts" and "following the science with bold, clear-eyed leadership" is being deployed cynically because it benefits the DNC politically. As soon as it stops benefiting the donor class, it'll disappear and be replaced with something else (like GOP obstructionism).



This is incredibly sanctimonious, Legacy. And it looks like you misinterpreted my post in the same way Oahu did.

This critique of me is new - the sanctimonious part not the misinterpreting part.

I believe George W. called this one of the proudest achievements in his Presidency.

Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act, 2006


The latest and second reauthorization with legislative updating.
Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness and Advancing Innovation Act, 2019

The law reauthorizes the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Act (PAHPA) along with the Hospital Preparedness Program, the Strategic National Stockpile, and the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority.
From Congress.gov:

This bill reauthorizes, revises, and establishes several programs and entities relating to public-health emergency preparedness and response.

Among other programs, the bill reauthorizes through FY2023 and revises

the Public Health Emergency Preparedness cooperative-agreement program administered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC),
the Hospital Preparedness Program administered by the Office of the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response,
the CDC situational-awareness and biosurveillance program,
the Emergency System for Advance Registration of Volunteer Health Professionals,
the National Disaster Medical System,
the Volunteer Medical Reserve Corps,
the National Advisory Committee on Children and Disasters,
the Strategic National Stockpile, and
the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority.

In addition, the bill provides statutory authority for several existing programs, including the Children's Preparedness Unit within the CDC and the Public Health Emergency Medical Countermeasures Enterprise. The bill also establishes new programs and entities, including a trauma-center grant program to support military trauma teams.

Finally, the bill institutes a series of reporting requirements for the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), including a report regarding efforts to reunify children in HHS facilities with their parents after separation at the U.S.-Mexico border under a specified immigration enforcement policy.

The two authors, Reps. Susan W. Brooks (R-IN05) and Anna G. Eshoo (D-CA18), said this when Trump signed it June 2019:

Brooks: “People across the country expect the federal government to be prepared to keep them safe during times of natural disasters or biological, chemical, radiological or nuclear threats to our public health and national security. The reality is, these kinds of threats are not just hypothetical. Threats such as Ebola, smallpox or the pandemic influenza can devastate communities, whether occurring naturally or manufactured into weapons of mass destruction by nation states or terrorist organizations. Now that PAHPA has been signed into law, we are one step closer to a safer and more secure future. PAHPA is a critically important bipartisan tool that bolsters America’s response to the growing threats to our public health security and is the product of years of collaboration from medical and public health preparedness and response stakeholders. I am proud to have joined my friend and colleague, Congresswoman Anna Eshoo, to lead this comprehensive bill through the legislative process in the House of Representatives.”

Eshop: “The Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness and Advancing Innovation Act improves our national security and public health by equipping our federal agencies to respond to new and emerging bioterrorism and public health threats, including infectious diseases such as Ebola and measles, natural disasters like hurricanes and wildfires, and manmade disasters”. I’m pleased the president signed this important bill into law, and grateful to Rep. Brooks, Senator (Richard) Burr (R, NC), and Senator (Bob) Casey (D, PA) for working together on this issue.”

Usually there's some statement by the President on signing perhaps celebrating its achievements and benefits to Americans, but all I could find was:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/bill-announcement-37/

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This critique of me is new - the sanctimonious part not the misinterpreting part.

Let me restate my argument then. I'm watching lots of people I care about, including some on this board, slowly go insane via their exposure to mainstream political media. You are not wrong to be frustrated by our leaders' inept response to this virus. But you are wrong to believe this is a partisan issue, and that a Democrat in the White House would have made this better.

I'm not defending Trump. Were the election held today, I'd write in Kanye. But you, Oahu and others are apparently convinced that voting blue is going to make things better. It just won't. You're getting a liberal either way, which means the status quo remains untouched, and the Common Good might as well not exist. Your faith in the DNC is comically misplaced.

Devoting time and effort to partisan politics is bad for your mental health. Focus on what you can control and otherwise tune out.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

In America, it was ok to allow groups of over 50 provided they were protesting. Protests/riots = COVID-19 immunity. Weddings/Funerals/Church gatherings = death to all

And yes Trump was an idiot to have an indoor rally in Tulsa with hundreds of people. He can’t have it both ways either.

I remember this hot take. Fox was blaming Protesters (even though most wore masks and protective gear), yet the lake parties and vegas trips were totally cool and patriotic becasue "muh freedoms."

 

[Legacy]

Let me restate my argument then. I'm watching lots of people I care about, including some on this board, slowly go insane via their exposure to mainstream political media. You are not wrong to be frustrated by our leaders' inept response to this virus. But you are wrong to believe this is a partisan issue, and that a Democrat in the White House would have made this better.

I'm not defending Trump. Were the election held today, I'd write in Kanye. But you, Oahu and others are apparently convinced that voting blue is going to make things better. It just won't. You're getting a liberal either way, which means the status quo remains untouched, and the Common Good might as well not exist. Your faith in the DNC is comically misplaced.

Devoting time and effort to partisan politics is bad for your mental health. Focus on what you can control and otherwise tune out.

I don't believe that this is a partisan issue. I have stressed the opposite about the response to the pandemic in that we had an overwhelmingly bipartisan approach to dealing with an existential threat. I have linked those above and at other times.

Where have I said that "voting blue would make things better" or "Your faith in the DNC is comically misplaced."

I would agree with you that partisan politics can be bad for one's mental health. Many of us in this thread have emphasized that politics and Covid belong in the thread created for that in the Politics board.

But I appreciate the restatement of your argument and will take your advice within that context. Feel free to comment on the Pandemic Acts, if you wish.

 

[NorthDakota]

I remember this hot take. Fox was blaming Protesters (even though most wore masks and protective gear), yet the lake parties and vegas trips were totally cool and patriotic becasue "muh freedoms."

Its not a hot take.

When you have one set of rules for a politically friendly group, and another set of rules for politically neutral or unfriendly groups, that's going to be called out and it should.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't believe that this is a partisan issue. I have stressed the opposite about the response to the pandemic in that we had an overwhelmingly bipartisan approach to dealing with an existential threat. I have linked those above and at other times.

Where have I said that "voting blue would make things better" or "Your faith in the DNC is comically misplaced."

I would agree with you that partisan politics can be bad for one's mental health. Many of us in this thread have emphasized that politics and Covid belong in the thread created for that in the Politics board.

But I appreciate the restatement of your argument and will take your advice within that context. Feel free to comment on the Pandemic Acts, if you wish.

I'm glad we mostly understand each other now. And I don't disagree with you or Oahu on the merits. I just despair of our leadership implementing effective policy because we, as a nation, lack the social capital necessary to address such challenges. I'll leave you guys to it.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Its not a hot take.

When you have one set of rules for a politically friendly group, and another set of rules for politically neutral or unfriendly groups, that's going to be called out and it should.

Except one group tried to take it seriously by wearing masks. The other intentionally got together in spite of and in defiance of these recommendations. Remember the COVID parties? The church gatherings... these are NOT THE SAME and the rules are not different. One group took it seriously, the other took a intentional and willful shit on it and people got sick.

Also as one poster said earlier, there is no indication that the protests (where people wore masks and protective gear) did not correlate to any outbreaks or increase in cases. The other COVID gathering groups I mentioned did in fact become linked to illness outbreaks..... specifically, Trump's Tulsa Coughapalooza costing Herman Cain (and many other attendees), his life as he willfully, knowingly, joyously and gleefully interacted with people mask free, eschewing social distancing practices and likely all other forms of personal hygiene recommendations, giving his illness to god knows who else.

The protests for BLM and the purposeful gatherings to inflict COVID on each other arent even in the same ball park and its disengenuous to say other wise.

 

[NorthDakota]

Except one group tried to take it seriously by wearing masks. The other intentionally got together in spite of and in defiance of these recommendations. Remember the COVID parties? The church gatherings... these are NOT THE SAME and the rules are not different. One group took it seriously, the other took a intentional and willful shit on it and people got sick.

Also as one poster said earlier, there is no indication that the protests (where people wore masks and protective gear) did not correlate to any outbreaks or increase in cases. The other COVID gathering groups I mentioned did in fact become linked to illness outbreaks..... specifically, Trump's Tulsa Coughapalooza costing Herman Cain (and many other attendees), his life as he willfully, knowingly, joyously and gleefully interacted with people mask free, eschewing social distancing practices and likely all other forms of personal hygiene recommendations, giving his illness to god knows who else.

The protests for BLM and the purposeful gatherings to inflict COVID on each other arent even in the same ball park and its disengenuous to say other wise.

I dont think churches have been allowed to open in some areas. Protests, with or without masks, have been allowed in every state, in some states, they've even been encouraged.

There is no justification for that if you have some mega concern for public health. None. Zero. Zilch. If people can't gather for say, a big Mass held by the Pope at Yankee stadium this fall, if a majority are wearing masks, why can thousands be shoulder to shoulder on the streets?

The amusing thing about New York shutting down churches...I've never been in one where attendance was above maybe 20%. For having such nice churches they really are a Godless people. Our church here ropes off every other pew, encourages folks to wear masks, and doesn't do singing, got rid of the sign of peace, etc., no reason that couldn't have been standard operating procedure in other places too, particularly if protesting is acceptable.

As an aside, I have no idea what a purposeful infliction gathering is but it sounds like something dumb people are going to do whether you ban gatherings or not.

 

[T-Boone]

Have any of the athletes or students at ND that tested positive had any symptoms yet?
Or any of the students at other schools?

 

[Irishize]

Let me restate my argument then. I'm watching lots of people I care about, including some on this board, slowly go insane via their exposure to mainstream political media. You are not wrong to be frustrated by our leaders' inept response to this virus. But you are wrong to believe this is a partisan issue, and that a Democrat in the White House would have made this better.

I'm not defending Trump. Were the election held today, I'd write in Kanye. But you, Oahu and others are apparently convinced that voting blue is going to make things better. It just won't. You're getting a liberal either way, which means the status quo remains untouched, and the Common Good might as well not exist. Your faith in the DNC is comically misplaced.

Devoting time and effort to partisan politics is bad for your mental health. Focus on what you can control and otherwise tune out.

Thank you. Political parties have become cults like never before. These threads show it daily.

 

[Irishize]

I remember this hot take. Fox was blaming Protesters (even though most wore masks and protective gear), yet the lake parties and vegas trips were totally cool and patriotic becasue "muh freedoms."

I was hoping I’d get feedback like this from you & Dublin. Why? Because it begs the question: If it truly is safer to be outdoors (I think most agree on that) provided ALL are masked up, then why the panic porn for outdoor sports attendance? Shouldn’t MLB stadiums at least be at a capacity that allows for the 6 foot rule? Same goes for college/pro football when they start back up provided they’re outdoors & not in domes? Same goes for other outdoor events.

You cite claims that all the “protesters” were masked up and there was no spike recorded 2-3 weeks post protests. There are, in fact; articles immediately after the protest that say this. I’m not sure if clinically that was enough time to allow for infections to set in but nevertheless. If it’s safe to protest, why all the panic porn for all other outdoor events? I never heard much follow up from the Spring Breakers in FL or parties in Lake of the Ozarks so I can only assume that the same specific contact tracing used for those in the protests was used in these instances & no spike could be attributed.

Just be consistent and don’t insult Americans by claiming riots & protests are fine as the rest of the nation sacrifices more than it will cost to rebuild what the riots destroyed. That’s fair isn’t it?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I was hoping I’d get feedback like this from you & Dublin. Why? Because it begs the question: If it truly is safer to be outdoors (I think most agree on that) provided ALL are masked up, then why the panic porn for outdoor sports attendance? Shouldn’t MLB stadiums at least be at a capacity that allows for the 6 foot rule? Same goes for college/pro football when they start back up provided they’re outdoors & not in domes? Same goes for other outdoor events.

You cite claims that all the “protesters” were masked up and there was no spike recorded 2-3 weeks post protests. There are, in fact; articles immediately after the protest that say this. I’m not sure if clinically that was enough time to allow for infections to set in but nevertheless. If it’s safe to protest, why all the panic porn for all other outdoor events? I never heard much follow up from the Spring Breakers in FL or parties in Lake of the Ozarks so I can only assume that the same specific contact tracing used for those in the protests was used in these instances & no spike could be attributed.

Just be consistent and don’t insult Americans by claiming riots & protests are fine as the rest of the nation sacrifices more than it will cost to rebuild what the riots destroyed. That’s fair isn’t it?

I’ll drop this as I have no interest in bogging down on points people won’t concede. All I can say is I have seen no traces that determined the BLM protests led to an outbreak in positive test results. I will gladly review any evidence that says otherwise. I have not found it yet. But if there is I will gladly review and assess for myself.

There were several very public instances of gatherings where the guidance was not followed either intentionally or apathetically and outbreaks occurred. Namely Tulsa, Arkansas , Vegas, and Myrtle Beach. There is documentation that the guidances were not followed and that led to outbreaks locally and others spread by people from out of town back to their locale. I believe these were assessed to have originated under these circumstances.

 

[Legacy93]

I’ll drop this as I have no interest in bogging down on points people won’t concede. All I can say is I have seen no traces that determined the BLM protests led to an outbreak in positive test results. I will gladly review any evidence that says otherwise. I have not found it yet. But if there is I will gladly review and assess for myself.

There were several very public instances of gatherings where the guidance was not followed either intentionally or apathetically and outbreaks occurred. Namely Tulsa, Arkansas , Vegas, and Myrtle Beach. There is documentation that the guidances were not followed and that led to outbreaks locally and others spread by people from out of town back to their locale. I believe these were assessed to have originated under these circumstances.

This point is so obviously skewed by a lack of research. I hadn't looked into it, but I spent about 5 minutes looking and found a working paper from the National Bureau of Economic Research that reviewed whether the BLM protests caused spikes in the 315 largest U.S. cities. The answer is they didn't find a spike; however, it's because they found the vast majority of non-protesters (re: vast majority of the population) voluntarily stayed home. Why did Tulsa, AR, Vegas, etc. have wider spread? Because the overall population was more mobile concurrent with the events. Correlation does not imply causation. I'd be interested to read ANY studies that you have found directly tracing widespread outbreaks to isolated events (BLM protests, Trump Rally, parties, etc.). I know you can find isolated events creating isolated spread but not creating the wide spread you appear to be implying.

 

[SonofOahu]

The point Whiskey is making (I believe and agree) is that EVEN IF HRC had followed the pandemic plan left for her by the previous admins, even if she had done all the proper things motivated by scientific evidence, even she hadnt grifted... the political right and RW media would have made the tasks taken an assault on personal freedoms, socialist/fascist government regulation, overburden on the economy, national debt increase, tax increase and any other dead horse they kick when Dems are in office. It would still be messy, misinformed, and divisive by political design to score political points. Our present society is incapable of doing the correct thing for a quintessential common good situation. If you dont think that Dem pols are currently taking advantage of immigration, welfare, and racism for political gain (regardless of the veracity), then I dont know what else to say.

I get it, and I agree that we would still see a certain level of blowback if HRC were president. My larger point is that we would be in a better position to combat this pandemic with a president who had a competent team in place, and the nation's best interests in mind. What the Democrats may or may not be doing for political gain in every other facet of life is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[SonofOahu]

You completely missed my point. Read that Twitter thread again. Had Trump instead adopted a pro-mask/ pro-lockdown position, the DNC 100% would have taken up the arguments currently being advanced by the right in opposition. Some red states may have locked down longer, and some blue states may have opened up sooner, but our national response would not have been any more coordinated. A President Clinton would not magically make the American people more united or willing to sacrifice for abstract goods like "public health". Trump didn't deploy the National Guard or roll in the tanks to enforce compliance with his preferred response to the pandemic. Clinton wouldn't have either.

Why? Because the people who have real influence in Washington are getting very rich off the present state of affairs. Sorry to burst your bubble, but all this nonsense about "respecting experts" and "following the science with bold, clear-eyed leadership" is being deployed cynically because it benefits the DNC politically. As soon as it stops benefiting the donor class, it'll disappear and be replaced with something else (like GOP obstructionism).

Maybe I did, and perhaps you're right. And to clarify, I don't believe we needed a nationwide lockdown -- comparing the situation in Alaska or Wyoming to NY/NJ, California, Florida, etc. is illogical. What we needed was a nationwide plan and a national leader. We had neither. The plan was, and still is, to downplay everything in order to prop up the stock market.

You are wrong when you say that our national response would not have been more coordinated, though.

 

[SonofOahu]

I was hoping I’d get feedback like this from you & Dublin. Why? Because it begs the question: If it truly is safer to be outdoors (I think most agree on that) provided ALL are masked up, then why the panic porn for outdoor sports attendance? Shouldn’t MLB stadiums at least be at a capacity that allows for the 6 foot rule? Same goes for college/pro football when they start back up provided they’re outdoors & not in domes? Same goes for other outdoor events.

You cite claims that all the “protesters” were masked up and there was no spike recorded 2-3 weeks post protests. There are, in fact; articles immediately after the protest that say this. I’m not sure if clinically that was enough time to allow for infections to set in but nevertheless. If it’s safe to protest, why all the panic porn for all other outdoor events? I never heard much follow up from the Spring Breakers in FL or parties in Lake of the Ozarks so I can only assume that the same specific contact tracing used for those in the protests was used in these instances & no spike could be attributed.

Just be consistent and don’t insult Americans by claiming riots & protests are fine as the rest of the nation sacrifices more than it will cost to rebuild what the riots destroyed. That’s fair isn’t it?

I’ll drop this as I have no interest in bogging down on points people won’t concede. All I can say is I have seen no traces that determined the BLM protests led to an outbreak in positive test results. I will gladly review any evidence that says otherwise. I have not found it yet. But if there is I will gladly review and assess for myself.

There were several very public instances of gatherings where the guidance was not followed either intentionally or apathetically and outbreaks occurred. Namely Tulsa, Arkansas , Vegas, and Myrtle Beach. There is documentation that the guidances were not followed and that led to outbreaks locally and others spread by people from out of town back to their locale. I believe these were assessed to have originated under these circumstances.

This point is so obviously skewed by a lack of research. I hadn't looked into it, but I spent about 5 minutes looking and found a working paper from the National Bureau of Economic Research that reviewed whether the BLM protests caused spikes in the 315 largest U.S. cities. The answer is they didn't find a spike; however, it's because they found the vast majority of non-protesters (re: vast majority of the population) voluntarily stayed home. Why did Tulsa, AR, Vegas, etc. have wider spread? Because the overall population was more mobile concurrent with the events. Correlation does not imply causation. I'd be interested to read ANY studies that you have found directly tracing widespread outbreaks to isolated events (BLM protests, Trump Rally, parties, etc.). I know you can find isolated events creating isolated spread but not creating the wide spread you appear to be implying.

Indoor settings are multiples worse for contracting COVID, but to say that there is no risk to getting COVID while outdoors is wrong. You can absolutely get COVID while in an outdoor setting, however the ability to track that is so impossibly hard they'll never find proof that it's a risk.

Yes, UV breaks down SARS-CoV-2, but unlike what Joe Rogan keeps saying, it doesn't happen the instant it hits sunlight. Also, wind will start to break the virus down, but that doesn't mean you're risk-free. Just like how dust can get in your eyes, so can the virus. Call me paranoid, but I try not to be downwind from anyone for extended periods of time -- certainly not if I'm facing the person.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I'm not aware of how this happened (mod-engineered or otherwise) but this serious topic thread has become a LOT more informative and readable since 8-9 approximately and 8-19 with the return of Cackalacky. I appreciate all of that greatly. Thanks to all who made it this way.

 

[notredomer23]

I'm not aware of how this happened (mod-engineered or otherwise) but this serious topic thread has become a LOT more informative and readable since 8-9 approximately and 8-19 with the return of Cackalacky. I appreciate all of that greatly. Thanks to all who made it this way.

Lose Circa, gain Cackalacky. Can’t think of a more unfair trade.

 

[Legacy]

Reposting these from another of our esteemed posters:

Chaos theory applied to the outbreak of COVID-19: an ancillary approach to decision making in pandemic context


Chaos, Percolation and the Coronavirus Spread

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I'm not aware of how this happened (mod-engineered or otherwise) but this serious topic thread has become a LOT more informative and readable since 8-9 approximately and 8-19 with the return of Cackalacky. I appreciate all of that greatly. Thanks to all who made it this way.

I’m the life model decoy of Cackalacky. I was programmed by Whiskey and returned to active duty with initial settings of “Post Like a Champion” at 90% and “Political Shit posting” at. 25%.


😂😅😇

 

[Legacy]

Airborne Transmission of SARS-CoV-2
Theoretical Considerations and Available Evidence (JAMA Network)

 

[NorthDakota]

I’m the life model decoy of Cackalacky. I was programmed by Whiskey and returned to active duty with initial settings of “Post Like a Champion” at 90% and “Political Shit posting” at. 25%.


😂😅😇

Whiskey quit trying to find ideal "builds" on Witcher III so he has moved on to social engineering on message boards.

 

[Legacy]

Indoor settings are multiples worse for contracting COVID, but to say that there is no risk to getting COVID while outdoors is wrong. You can absolutely get COVID while in an outdoor setting, however the ability to track that is so impossibly hard they'll never find proof that it's a risk.

Yes, UV breaks down SARS-CoV-2, but unlike what Joe Rogan keeps saying, it doesn't happen the instant it hits sunlight. Also, wind will start to break the virus down, but that doesn't mean you're risk-free. Just like how dust can get in your eyes, so can the virus. Call me paranoid, but I try not to be downwind from anyone for extended periods of time -- certainly not if I'm facing the person.

Oahu,
Would you mind passing this along to Rogan about UV-C vs the other types?
Ultraviolet LEDs prove effective in eliminating coronavirus from surfaces and, potentially, air and water

If I remember correctly, testing showed the virus was gone from the upper surfaces of playground equipment with direct sunlight but still remained on their underneath surfaces.

Have you thought about this as a long-term solution for viral airborne transmission for those enclosed spaces without negative pressure rooms? Do you have time, material and staff to do the terminal cleaning that infection control each room requires to reduce the viral exposure of healthcare personnel? An influx of federal revenue that the states could use for these would certainly assist.

COVID-19 Forced Hospitals to Build Negative Pressure Rooms Fast