COVID-19

[wizards8507]

What government actions are you specifically referring to?

Mostly the mandatory stay-at-home orders and forced business closures from the governors.

 

[Bluto]

One of my friends is a writer in Boston, he wrote this piece about helping the industry. One tip is to buy gift cards to favorite spots for use later when it's over.

Gift cards could be problematic in that they are basically a loan to the business in this situation. The major problem with restaurants right now is cash flow. So ordering takeout is by far the most helpful. Cheers.

 

[Bluto]

Lawyers of IE, help me out. Why aren't we seeing any legal filings against any of this bullshit? First Amendment, Second Amendment, Fifth Amendment, Fourteenth Amendment, etc.

That would be a PR disaster.

 

[IrishLax]

Lawyers of IE, help me out. Why aren't we seeing any legal filings against any of this bullshit? First Amendment, Second Amendment, Fifth Amendment, Fourteenth Amendment, etc.

I'm personally very surprised we haven't seen First Amendment lawsuits over them closing churches.

 

[arahop]

Mostly the mandatory stay-at-home orders and forced business closures from the governors.

I think you are looking at this from a different lense than me. I would think far greater legal action could be taken by employees, who become infected (possibly dying, and possibly infecting their loved ones) by going into work when a lot of companies aren't following the CDC guidelines. A lot of businesses deem themselves essential. Which a lot of them aren't. The stay at home order in my state is very vague and leaves a lot open to interpretation. It is very vague and has an an out for almost any business.

 

[Irish#1]

What government actions are you specifically referring to?

Don't forget to give Wiz the IE billing rate.

I think you are looking at this from a different lense than me. I would think far greater legal action could be taken by employees, who become infected (possibly dying, and possibly infecting their loved ones) by going into work when a lot of companies aren't following the CDC guidelines. A lot of businesses deem themselves essential. Which a lot of them aren't. The stay at home order in my state is very vague and leaves a lot open to interpretation. It is very vague and has an an out for almost any business.

This is where I'm at. Personally I'm fine going to work. We're deemed essential. I'm in an office and the rest of my staff in this building is working from home so my risk is very low, but I have wondered if any employee does get infected and infects others what may happen.

 

[irishff1014]

I'm personally very surprised we haven't seen First Amendment lawsuits over them closing churches.

Because most people are trying to be humble and comply so this world gets back to normal.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I'm personally very surprised we haven't seen First Amendment lawsuits over them closing churches.

They probably exist but treating religious gatherings and non-religious gatherings identically complies with existing SC precedent on religious freedom.

EDIT: I suppose you could be talking about peaceable assembly. The SC has given states latitude in emergencies for quarantines. Not having looked at them in any detail: the state would probably have to establish the existence of a danger, that the measures were narrowly tailored to address it with minimal infringement, and that the prohibition was temporary.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Lawyers of IE, help me out. Why aren't we seeing any legal filings against any of this bullshit? First Amendment, Second Amendment, Fifth Amendment, Fourteenth Amendment, etc.

Mostly the mandatory stay-at-home orders and forced business closures from the governors.

Courts are very deferential to executive authority during states of emergency (as they should be).

Imagine someone suing the Office of Price Administration in 1942, during the run up to WWII, because rationing was "violating his rights as an American".

 

[Sea Turtle]

I just read that there have been 40,000,000 cases, 330,000 hospitalizations and 44,000 deaths in the US this year from the flu.

I know that this is different but wow, those are big numbers.

 

[irishknight35]

I just read that there have been 40,000,000 cases, 330,000 hospitalizations and 44,000 deaths in the US this year from the flu.

I know that this is different but wow, those are big numbers.

So what's your point? That the flu with it's vaccines and FDA-approved OTC medications has a death rate of .0011% this year?

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I just read that there have been 40,000,000 cases, 330,000 hospitalizations and 44,000 deaths in the US this year from the flu.

I know that this is different but wow, those are big numbers.

They are but keep in mind the counting is not straightforward:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/how-cdc-estimates.htm

What methods are used to estimate the number of influenza-associated hospitalizations in the U.S.?

Laboratory-confirmed influenza-associated hospitalization rates are obtained from the Influenza Hospitalization Surveillance Network (FluSurv-NET), a collaboration between CDC, the Emerging Infections Program Network, and selected state and local health departments in 13 geographically distributed areas in the United States that conduct population-based surveillance. The network includes hospitals that serve roughly 9% of the U.S. population. The reported numbers of hospitalizations are used to calculate hospitalization rates and the rates are adjusted to correct for under-detection of influenza. This adjustment is done by using the percent of persons hospitalized with respiratory illness who were tested for influenza and the average sensitivity of influenza tests used in the participating FluSurv-NET hospitals. The data on influenza testing can lag up to two years after the end of the season, so for more recent seasons, testing data from prior seasons is used (1).

Adjusted rates are applied to the U.S. population by age group to estimate the total number of influenza-associated hospitalizations.

And as for deaths:

What methods are used to estimate the number of influenza-associated deaths in the U.S.?

The methods to estimate the annual number of influenza-associated deaths have been described in detail elsewhere (1-2). The model uses a ratio of deaths-to-hospitalizations in order to estimate the total influenza-associated deaths from the estimated number of influenza-associated hospitalizations.

We first look at how many in-hospital deaths were observed in FluSurv-NET. The in-hospital deaths are adjusted for under-detection of influenza using methods similar to those described above for hospitalizations using data on the frequency and sensitivity of influenza testing. Second, because not all deaths related to influenza occur in the hospital, we use death certificate data to estimate how likely deaths are to occur outside the hospital. We look at death certificates that have pneumonia or influenza causes (P&I), other respiratory and circulatory causes (R&C), or other non-respiratory, non-circulatory causes of death, because deaths related to influenza may not have influenza listed as a cause of death. We use information on the causes of death from FluSurv-NET to determine the mixture of P&I, R&C, and other coded deaths to include in our investigation of death certificate data. Finally, once we estimate the proportion of influenza-associated deaths that occurred outside of the hospital, we can estimate the deaths-to-hospitalization ratio.

Data needed to estimate influenza-associated deaths may lag for up to two years after the season ends. When this is not yet available for the season being estimated, we adjust based on values observed in prior seasons (e.g., the 2010-2011 season through the 2016-2017 season) and update the estimates when more current data become available.

 

[ACamp1900]

So what's your point? That the flu with it's vaccines and FDA-approved OTC medications has a death rate of .0011% this year?

Assuming but,... I think some were never in tune to the massive nature of the flu is basically his point.

 

[arahop]

I just read that there have been 40,000,000 cases, 330,000 hospitalizations and 44,000 deaths in the US this year from the flu.

I know that this is different but wow, those are big numbers.

Stop comparing it to the Flu. It's not only dangerous but detrimental to society.

 

[Legacy]

I think I said this earlier, but one of the things that we have to do is fire up our ethics committee in order to put together our triage plan. I hope it doesn't get to that point, but triaging the use of resources involves placing some sort of "value" on the individuals who need it. I have seen special needs being one of the weighting factors previously in place, not here, but I think there was a recent story in the SB Tribune about Indiana's policy.

If you have not already done so, reach out to the hospitals in your area to find out if they have a triage policy, and how they come to their value determination. If special needs is a part of their equation, you need to know that so you can choose a hospital that does not factor that in (if you ever have that need, hopefully not). If they don't or can't tell you what their policy is, reach out to whoever your local disability-rights center is. They may have that info available, or they can help provide some leverage in getting access to that info.

In addition, the hospital lawyer is part of the administration meetings and he or she is also part of the bioethics committee of the hospital. State laws differ on end-of-life or withdrawl of life-sustaining/prolonging measures. What is primary is someone's expressed wishes - written or verbal - and, if they are incapacitated such as on a vent, family members are the default decision-makers. Without their or the family's expressed wishes, they cannot be removed from the vent, which can sustain function of many organs. There are signs of anoxic brain injury, certain tests are done at the bedside as well as a scan to determine the extent. The person would try to be weaned off the vent to determine their response and if they could breathe independently. Family would be kept informed of all the results, a final diagnosis and an assessment of possibility of gaining any prior function back, which might become a persistent vegetative state like with Terri Schiavo.

With this novel coronavirus, patients stay on vents for longer periods of time than those who may be on it for other conditions. So ICU stays are longer, impacting bed availability and backups in the ERs for those admitted and who may have needed to be intubated there or in the field by EMTs/paramedics, who contact the ERs to determine if they have the capability of providing care. Sometimes, the ERs may have to go on "divert" and inform the paramedics to divert to a different hospital. Those decisions are not determined by ability to pay or chances of survival or value of one life weighed against another. If those criteria were not unlawful, the 85 yr old grandmother whose been on a vent for ten days would be extubated to admit the intubated 35 yr old mother of three in extremis in the ER. Some procedures and life-saving medications can be administered in the ICU.

Ten days out on a vent, grandma may then need a tracheostomy to prevent the erosion of the trach, a central line placement for fluids and a gastrostomy for provision of nutritional feedings. Family decision-makers would need to consent to these, but they would have been daily kept up to date by physicians. What is difficult in this pandemic is that family cannot see their loved one and family members may differ.

So, I have to differ with Oahu on "triaging based on the assessed value of one's life" or "triage policy". Even with a homeless John Doe, who has no family that can be reached, and has signs of brain death, must have an appointed guardian to assist in making decisions on necessary life support measures. Those are then reviewed by a judge under most state laws and will then make his/her decision. Of note too, one out of every four hospitals are now owned by the Catholic Church and guided by their religious dictates.

 

[notredomer23]

Bundesliga is back on May 2nd.

And you still have some media members still saying we won't see sports in 2020.

 

[IrishLax]

They probably exist but treating religious gatherings and non-religious gatherings identically complies with existing SC precedent on religious freedom.

EDIT: I suppose you could be talking about peaceable assembly. The SC has given states latitude in emergencies for quarantines. Not having looked at them in any detail: the state would probably have to establish the existence of a danger, that the measures were narrowly tailored to address it with minimal infringement, and that the prohibition was temporary.

This is very interesting, but makes sense.

 

[IrishLax]

Bundesliga is back on May 2nd.

And you still have some media members still saying we won't see sports in 2020.

I continue to believe we're tracking towards a "return to normalcy" in June. At least if people start actually adhering to the fucking social distancing guidelines.

 

[IrishLax]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some context as UK PM Boris Johnson is admitted to intensive care:<br><br>A new report from <a href="https://twitter.com/ICNARC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@ICNARC</a> found that of 690 UK covid patients admitted to ICU with a reported final outcome, 50% died and 50% lived <a href="https://t.co/W9Rg0z68Jf">https://t.co/W9Rg0z68Jf</a> <a href="https://t.co/kRSXCwZmz2">pic.twitter.com/kRSXCwZmz2</a></p>— John Burn-Murdoch (@jburnmurdoch) <a href="https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1247252077513977857?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 6, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So Boris Johnson has a coin flip (but probably much better than that, because he's the Prime Minister and they're on this early) chance of surviving COVID-19.

 

[Legacy]

Lawyers of IE, help me out. Why aren't we seeing any legal filings against any of this bullshit? First Amendment, Second Amendment, Fifth Amendment, Fourteenth Amendment, etc.

Reminds me of the story of Typhoid Mary, who was a cook in the early 1900s and an asymptomatic carrier of typhoid. Wherever she went, there was a typhoid epidemic and deaths in those families. She refused any testing, but eventually was quarantined for years, then released. Despite a promise not to cook anywhere, she ended up cooking in a hospital, where another outbreak occurred. She was then confined for the rest of her life, because public health and those individual rights of those she infected superseded her individual rights.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Assuming but,... I think some were never in tune to the massive nature of the flu is basically his point.

I always knew that thousands die each year. But those numbers are really bad. Worse than 1968 Honk Kong flu.
And the Taiwan flu of 1986 was the sickest I've ever been. Brutal two weeks.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I always knew that thousands die each year. But those numbers are really bad. Worse than 1968 Honk Kong flu.
And the Taiwan flu of 1986 was the sickest I've ever been. Brutal two weeks.

But they haven't collected all the data so their 2019 numbers are [presumably] based off of influenza testing incidences from prior years.

In other words, the model assumes that the proportion of people who died from cardio & respiratory diseases in previous years stayed constant this past season. So deaths from any new respiratory disease would cause a bump in deaths attributed to influenza (by this model). So I'm wondering what the timeline end points are.

It seems like an odd coincidence that the model spits out a particularly deadly flu season leading right into the coronavirus outbreak.

What methods are used to estimate the number of influenza-associated deaths in the U.S.?

The methods to estimate the annual number of influenza-associated deaths have been described in detail elsewhere (1-2). The model uses a ratio of deaths-to-hospitalizations in order to estimate the total influenza-associated deaths from the estimated number of influenza-associated hospitalizations.

We first look at how many in-hospital deaths were observed in FluSurv-NET. The in-hospital deaths are adjusted for under-detection of influenza using methods similar to those described above for hospitalizations using data on the frequency and sensitivity of influenza testing. Second, because not all deaths related to influenza occur in the hospital, we use death certificate data to estimate how likely deaths are to occur outside the hospital. We look at death certificates that have pneumonia or influenza causes (P&I), other respiratory and circulatory causes (R&C), or other non-respiratory, non-circulatory causes of death, because deaths related to influenza may not have influenza listed as a cause of death. We use information on the causes of death from FluSurv-NET to determine the mixture of P&I, R&C, and other coded deaths to include in our investigation of death certificate data. Finally, once we estimate the proportion of influenza-associated deaths that occurred outside of the hospital, we can estimate the deaths-to-hospitalization ratio.

Data needed to estimate influenza-associated deaths may lag for up to two years after the season ends. When this is not yet available for the season being estimated, we adjust based on values observed in prior seasons (e.g., the 2010-2011 season through the 2016-2017 season) and update the estimates when more current data become available.

 

[Irish2155]

Don't forget to give Wiz the IE billing rate.




This is where I'm at. Personally I'm fine going to work. We're deemed essential. I'm in an office and the rest of my staff in this building is working from home so my risk is very low, but I have wondered if any employee does get infected and infects others what may happen.

I can time stamp it. Got back from FL 2/25 and I swear this hit the fan as soon as I was boarding. In person work functions haven’t happened since my return and the beard is full.

This happened over the weekend. Not good.

https://win1049.com/cummins-shutting-down-all-southern-indiana-manufacturing/?

[

 

[Legacy]

I think you are looking at this from a different lense than me. I would think far greater legal action could be taken by employees, who become infected (possibly dying, and possibly infecting their loved ones) by going into work when a lot of companies aren't following the CDC guidelines. A lot of businesses deem themselves essential. Which a lot of them aren't. The stay at home order in my state is very vague and leaves a lot open to interpretation. It is very vague and has an an out for almost any business.

Isn't that the case with the health care workers? There was talk of "hazardous pay" but one organization says they do not increase pay based on diagnoses. I read thirty percent of them are out sick in some places. One hospital reports half their ICU nurses are out sick. You can have a bed, a vent and PPE, but without a nurse, they're useless and the critically ill patient will die. As revenues decrease, the health care sector is the biggest or one of the biggest areas of job losses and loss of health insurance.

COVID-19 Hits Some Health Care Workers With Pay Cuts And Layoffs

 

[Irish YJ]

Hats off to Cali too, redeploying ventilators to some other states. I did not hear NY as being one of the states (AZ, DE), so perhaps they (NY) now feel they are covered.

 

[Irish2155]

Hats off to Cali too, redeploying ventilators to some other states. I did not hear NY as being one of the states (AZ, DE), so perhaps they (NY) now feel they are covered.

Why would NY donate when they’re epicenter of the nation. Someone said the state has more cases than every country except 3 maybe 4 nationally. Help me understand.

 

[Circa]

Why would NY donate when they’re epicenter of the nation. Someone said the state has more cases than every country except 3 maybe 4 nationally. Help me understand.

Not to speak for Yj, but I think he Is stating that NY Isn't a state that Is needing Ventilators atm. or not asking other states for them. Other states do.

 

[phork]

I saw this. The whole thing screams hoax....

Is a Kern County real, because I’m betting that post is fake

I did some googling on it, and it smells of trolls big time. The amount of dumb out there is probably about the same level of trolls these days, so who knows.

So many ways to respond to that.

She died btw. Found the gofundme, her family and friends on facebook. Seems a lot of work to ferret out a moron.

 

[Circa]

She died btw. Found the gofundme, her family and friends on facebook. Seems a lot of work to ferret out a moron.

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/lPpKiZHB1PtQU2Rulv" width="480" height="269" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="https://giphy.com/gifs/moodman-karen-karening-intensifies-lPpKiZHB1PtQU2Rulv"

 

[Greenore]

Don't forget to give Wiz the IE billing rate.




This is where I'm at. Personally I'm fine going to work. We're deemed essential. I'm in an office and the rest of my staff in this building is working from home so my risk is very low, but I have wondered if any employee does get infected and infects others what may happen.

It's sad that in a crisis such as this, litigation worries are so prevalent.

I'm a business owner and this pandemic has already taken a real toll. We had to give layoff notice to about 30 employees last week. We are currently classified as essential services.

Small businesses (in Canada) have been the low hanging fruit for many litigation lawyers and Human Rights Tribunals.

From the information provided thus far, and dependent upon its veracity, there appears to be 2 parties that are culpable (1) the Chinese government and (2) The Word Heath Organization.

If justice is to prevail, these parties must be held to account.

Cheers and Go Irish!!