NDohio
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Not sure, we all saw it from the upper deck. Even the Clemson fans acknowledged that one.
Clemson Postgame...
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Not sure, we all saw it from the upper deck. Even the Clemson fans acknowledged that one.
Irish Insanity
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irishfan
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I agree. I think they're pretty good, but not at all amazing. Sucks we pretty much either need them to go 13-0 and finish as high as possible or to drop 2 games if we want to pass them. Clemson going 11-1 with a loss to FSU would be terrible.
So many things need to go right for us to make it to playoffs at 11-1, it's troubling.
GoldenToTheGrave
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I completely agree with this, despite the fumble. I even like Carlisle--as a savvy slot receiver--but he has shown absolutely nothing as a kick returner.
GowerND11
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One of the benefits of having a massive home crowd advantage is the other team needing to use the silent count. That absolutely aided Clemson in their ability to stuff the run game. We couldn't change the cadence or anything, therefore they know that when the guard tapped the center the ball was being snapped within a second. Martin would check to see Kizer, lift his head, and snap. As a defensive player that's all you need to start moving.
Loading the box and daring Kizer to throw also worked well, which I don't think would have been as successful if we were at home/it was dry, since the crowd noise would have been significantly less.
Loading the box and daring Kizer to throw also worked well, which I don't think would have been as successful if we were at home/it was dry, since the crowd noise would have been significantly less.
NDgradstudent
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I'm still pretty new on IE. There is no general view about moving to an 8-team playoff, right? It seems to divide readers, even though an 11-1 ND team would almost certainly get in under an eight team (Power 5 champ/3 wildcard) scenario. Heck, even a 10-2 ND team would have a fighting chance to get in.
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I'd imagine that if the playoff went to 8 teams, it would be 5 conference champs and three at-large.
If that were the case, I think a 10-2 ND makes it as an at-large almost every time, except in rare instances where there is a 1-loss team that didn't play in a conference championship (like Bama/LSU in '11, and could be seen this season between OSU/MSU) or if there is a "Group of 5" team that reallllly stands out with an undefeated record.
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koonja
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Does anyone remember at what week OSU was #16? That's basically where we are. We obviously need to beat USC, and have a couple big wins (points wise) down the road to look impressive to the playoff committee. I just remember that #16 ranking of OSU's to shrink quickly down to whatever it was that got them into the playoffs. There's going to be a lot more 2 loss teams that end at the top than we think IMO. I'm thinking that the Big 12 and Big 10 will be the only conferences with a 1-loss team.
Free Manera
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Nah their schedule sets up nice. South Carolina is way down this year although it is a rivalry game. GT is looking weak. FSU is their biggest remaining test and they have been underwhelming this year too. This is probably their best chance to run the table in a long time.
ACamp1900
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All I heard while reading this is all the stories you guys have shared about blue hairs at ND stadium complaining when peps try to get loud.....
Emcee77
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I've been to every home game this year, and ND has been louder than it has been in years -- apparently due to the new construction, which I guess is containing the sound? At least that is how Kelly has explained it. But it is nothing like that Clemson atmosphere. What I saw and heard was just what everyone else described -- the whole stadium stood and cheered loudly for the ENTIRE game. It was an absolutely rocking atmosphere.
It was truly the best away game I've ever attended, out of maybe a dozen. I would definitely recommend it for the next trip.
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koonja
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FYI, OSU was ranked #16 on October 30th (week 10). After that week, they moved up to #14, and then beat #8 MSU and continued to move up.
NDgradstudent
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How does ND stadium this year compare to other stadiums? Is it noticeably worse than other big time schools, apart from Clemson?
As a side note, although we in the student section stand for the whole game, most ND fans are not going to be doing that. I'm impressed that Clemson fans stand as a matter of course.
irishfan
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Yep, in the first playoff rankings, OSU was #16 and 6-1. Kind of crazy that they made it all the way to #4. Too early to predict, but if we can get to 7-1 when the rankings come out November 2nd, we would probably be around #10 in the opening rankings which isn't terrible.
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Hell no it wouldn't be terrible. It would be great.
Combine late-season chaos among the top teams and ND winning out (with a huge road win at Stanford to close things out), and there will be a good chance that ND could climb the ~6 spots they would need.
We just need to hope that TCU and Baylor both finish with a loss, and that Sparty loses 2 games. Also, Bama dropping another would be huge.
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irishfan
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It's going to be tough for everything to break our way.
--SEC is a lock to get one school unless everyone somehow goes 9-3. I think they'd stick an 11-2 SEC Champ in over an 11-1 team from another conference.
--ACC....I guess we're rooting for Clemson to go 13-0? I don't see them dropping 2 games with that schedule and I don't think we could pass them if they finish 11-1 sadly. The last thing we need is them looking average, losing to FSU, finishing 11-1 and ranked about #7. I'd rather have them be 10-2 and ranked #15 so people don't have to justify 11-1 ND over 11-1 Clemson when we lost head-to-head.
--B1G...Michigan/Northwestern/Iowa are doing enough to boost the conference up where I think a 12-1 team would be in. Realistically either OSU or MSU will ride the weak conference to 13-0 or 12-1.
--PAC12...really need Stanford and USC to keep winning. One of them winning the actual PAC-12 would be amazing and would probably make us the de facto PAC champs in the committee's eyes.
--BIG 12 IMO is our biggest issue. Some sort of disaster scenario where TCU/Baylor/OU all finish 11-1 would be great since the committee won't want to touch that and could leave them all out. I think OU at 11-1 and undisputed conf champ would get in.....TCU same thing......Baylor maybe not with that non-conf schedule.
Mainly, we really really need Stanford to be 10-1 or 9-2 for that final game and ideally PAC-12 North Champs. It would completely be the equivalent of us playing a conf champ game.
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The biggest issue with freshmen is their strength. If he had been a sophomore he probably would have maintained control.
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koonja
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I think we get in over the 1-loss team out of the Big 12.
So worst case scenario at 11-1, we're likely behind:
1) Undefeated Big 12
2) Winner of the Big 10 (winner doesn't have 2 losses)
3) Winner of the SEC (even with 2 losses, I just don't see the SEC champ being left out of playoffs)
4) ACC champ finishes with 1 loss and it's Clemson or FSU.
If we win out, it's likely we beat the PAC 12 champ.
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ND blogger Chris Wilson just published his Rakes Report on the Clemson game:
1) The above photo was taken with my phone through the Ziploc bag in which it was encased for most of Saturday. I don’t know how it looked on television, but the weather actually wasn’t that miserable to stand in during the game. Yeah, it poured and poured, but you can really only get so wet and it never got cold. (Also: alcohol.) The rain was at its worst – and I am not making this up – literally as soon as Clemson kicked off after going up 21-3. It was if Dabo Swinney flicked a switch on the sideline. Sometimes the gods just seem to conspire against you.
2) Notre Dame needed to survive the early wave* (like they did against Oklahoma in 2012 and Florida State in 2014) and oh how they failed at that task. By the time the offense had gained a yard it was already 14-0, a hole that eventually proved insurmountable. The whole first half the offense seemed like it was in a haze, as attempts to establish the run had the same level of success as the wide receivers’ attempts to catch the ball. I realize the conditions were not ideal but if Will Fuller hauls in the third-and-17 throw with space in front of him or Corey Robinson can bring down the ball at the goal line, it’s probably 14-10 at the half and who knows how things go in the final 30 minutes. DeShone Kizer was the team’s leading rusher and C.J. Prosise was the leading receiver, and that fact is a nice indicator of how weird this game was.
* This is not a water pun.
As if to attempt to top the rough start to the first half, the Irish’s ratio of fumbles lost to offensive plays was 2:1 a few minutes into the third quarter. It is difficult to win games that way.
3) Kizer had 381 yards of offense and three scores in his first career road start, which took place at night, in a ridiculously loud venue during a monsoon against 2014's top defense. He had more yards than Clemson did as a team, and while he wasn’t perfect – some locking in on targets, a couple missed reads, the pick and a fumble that thankfully wasn’t lost – he played really well despite an offensive line that couldn’t get a push in the running game and a receiving corps that let him down time after time. If you were to rank the reasons Notre Dame lost Saturday night, I don’t think Kizer is even in the “Receiving Votes” section. This is a kid who has already proven he doesn’t shrink from the big moments, and that’s a handy trait to have going forward. I am interested to see how he plays in the aftermath of his first career loss, but I am confident.
4) Kelly said his quarterback had a run/pass read on the final two-point conversion, and while Clemson deserves credit for collapsing the tiny crease that briefly appeared, I really hated that play call. When you have a QB like Kizer and you’re in that situation, there’s no reason not to bootleg him out and let him make the run/pass decision after the defense starts moving. On a night where the play-calling trusted the offensive line to handle things for too long at the beginning of the game, one of the reasons the game was lost was that same trust and same ineffectiveness both returned at the very end of the game.
5) On Friday I highlighted four Clemson defenders who had the potential to step up and give Notre Dame trouble, and man, they all did. Mackensie Alexander (hounded Will Fuller into his worst game all season), Shaq Lawson (3.5 tackles for loss, general dominance most of the night along the line), Jayron Kearse (6 tackles, forced fumble, fumble recovery) and Ben Boulware (10 tackles, a forced fumble and a pick) made life miserable for the Irish offense. If Notre Dame comes out throwing — and if the weather were perhaps more suited for doing that — who knows how this game goes, but the Tigers defense wanted to take away the running game and completed that mission with aplomb. Brent Venables is one of the highest-paid assistants in college and he earned the paycheck for three quarters last night. A question I asked a few times going into this game was “Is the Clemson defensive front really that much better than LSU’s was in the bowl?”, and the answer, at least Saturday, was most certainly “Yeah.”
6) I’m not ready to crown the Irish defense even though they held Clemson under 300 yards. They started very slow, allowed a lot of yards after contact with shoddy tackling and spent most of the second half facing an offense content to just run it up the middle and hope for the best. Brian VanGorder’s crew made a lot of really nice plays when the Irish needed stops late, but Deshaun Watson and company weren’t under game pressure for 95% of the evening as Swinney assumed if they just ran clock and kept turnovers to a minimum his defense would make enough plays to win. (He was right — barely.) Special recognition to Cole Luke for his pick in the end zone and to Max Redfield for stepping up with 14 tackles. After gutting out possession after possession in the final stanza of that game, the defense is now rewarded with a bunch of Midshipmen coming for their knees and Cody Kessler. No rest for the weary.
7) I think there’s an interesting discussion to be had about the decision to go for two early in the fourth that I might go deeper on later in the week (this is a good read via @PootND), but it’s extremely unwise to pin the entire game on that choice. I see the argument against “chasing points,”* but I was fine with it when it happened. My thinking at the time was if you go for two first you know how many possessions you need if you fail to convert, versus if you use up your time assuming you only need two more possessions, go for two last and miss it, that’s that. Didn’t love having to take the timeout or going to Robinson (who hasn’t had more than three catches in a game since his 8-catch effort in Tallahassee), but if you think the Irish lost solely because of a 50/50 call, I’m not sure what to tell you.
* Just skip this if you don’t want to wade into a stupid semantics discussion, but: I had never really thought about it before, but in the aftermath of this game I think I hate the term “chasing points.” Isn’t that the entire point of offense, to go out there and chase some points? What’s the preferred nomenclature for scoring? Generating points? Achieving points? Taking points?
8) Considering the score, weather and venue, Justin Yoon’s 46-yard field goal to get the Irish on the board was one helluva kick. Tyler Newsome punted well other than the shank that set up Clemson’s second touchdown, which is close to a “But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?” situation. I didn’t even see C.J. Sanders’ fumble, as I was talking to some friends on the concourse during halftime and we had no idea the game had restarted. We walked in to see Watson take the snap and head in for the touchdown, which was a confusing and not great feeling. Would not recommend.
9) In the soggy, sleepy aftermath last night I was cruising the internet and came across someone calling this a typical Kelly loss, with turnovers, poor special teams and questionable play-calling. Congratulations, you just described how most good teams lose games! There was also a lot of discussion over how Notre Dame generally doesn’t win in games where it turns the ball over a lot. Yes, that is how this works for every team. If you turn the ball over and muck up special teams, you’re probably going to be in a close game, and if you’re in a close game, a whole lot more play-calling seems “questionable.”
A couple Kelly decisions I did not enjoy if we want to nitpick further: I didn't love the punt on 4th and 5 from the Clemson 44 at the end of the first half and I really did not like the punt on 4th and two from Irish 45 in the third, although Newsome at least downed that one inside the 20. Both are perfectly defensible but not my preferred choices.
10) Clemson fans were very nice all weekend, although it certainly is annoying how often they play their fight song at the bars and how much said fight song involves spelling “Clemson.” I couldn’t really take photos because of the rain, but the stadium was on what seemed like a lovely campus (look at this Bellagio-esque set up next to the library!), the bars were nearby with cheap beer and everyone was friendly even in victory, with the exception of the guy who shouted “You lost, get over it! Stop making excuses!” as we were walking out of the game discussing the sundry things that had gone awry. The surrounding area was lovely as well (gratuitous shot from the porch of our rental house below), and I’ll add the town underneath Charlottesville on the list of places I’d like to hang out on a Saturday night when I am not super-duper depressed.
11) If indignation (feigned or legitimate) over random tweets and hashtags results in jumping out to 14-0 leads, perhaps that’s something the Irish should consider? And two straight games without a season-ending injury! With Navy on the docket, it’s good to bank a couple fatality-free games in a row. Also worth noting it's not that intimidating when a team gingerly works its way down a wet hill as opposed to sprinting, which is also not that intimidating since it's just, you know, running down a hill.
The ticket market absolutely cratered in the final few days before the game with rumors of a postponement and various states of emergency declared. In the area around the stadium before kickoff dozens of people were selling (or just straight-up giving away) pairs. If you could get to Clemson, you could get into the game, but that first part was rather tricky.
12) After last year’s heartbreaking primetime loss on the road to an ACC contender, there was a sense of “No problem, this team is now on a mission from God and we’ll win the rematch in the playoff,” which didn’t quite happen. We’ve heard for months about all of the leadership on this team, and we’ll now see whether that was all talk or not against Navy. Come out and take care of business (the Irish opened as 16-point favorites) and get ready for Southern Cal or this season could start to spiral like last year, a situation we’d all rather not see (and I’d rather not write about if possible).
On a national scale this season is reminiscent of 2007, where things were wide open but Notre Dame chose not to enter the fray by bringing a rotten banana to a gunfight. The Irish were one of four top-ten teams to go down this weekend (the only underdog of that quartet) and the top two won by a combined ten points against Purdue and Indiana, so there’s some potential to jump up in the coming weeks with victories. That said, I’d prefer to not hear any concerns about rankings or discussions about the playoffs unless the Irish get to the bye week with one loss.
13) You can talk about building a program and playing championship football all you want, but as of now the Irish haven’t defeated a team with a winning record (not their fault other than the Clemson game) and play their next three games against undefeated Navy, USC and a probably undefeated Temple. Further down the road, Boston College plays some really nice defense, Pitt is forever a tough out and Stanford’s white running back plan is working again. The schedule doesn’t have a lot of big names left, but it has some stiff tests and a scarcity of easy wins.
Bottom line: Saturday night sucked. It was a chance at a really special moment and it slipped away in a mix of turnovers, dropped passes, blown tackles and a bad final play call against a motivated, talented Clemson team. All hope is not lost, but the margin for error is now zero. It’s a gut-check fortnight that could possibly define Kelly’s tenure at Notre Dame, but other than that, no pressure or anything.
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koonja
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Sorry to ask again but if anyone has the link, pleasee post. I was drunk after we went down 14 and forgot to set the DVR
GoldenDomer
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C
Cackalacky
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Finally made it back home....hell of a time getting to an Interstate from the Midlands.
This article is right on. He did leave out how many passes Kizer sailed, the missed PI on Brown, and some other minutiae but all in all correct IMO. The rain was not so bad until the end of the third. This was not a fun game to watch in that weather especially with that stupid Clemson fight song every other play. That stadium was soooooooo loud though. Crazy loud.
gkIrish
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I don't understand that pause after the "O" before the "N." It's so unnatural. I think it would sound a lot better if they just held the "O"
C-L-E-M-S-OOOOOOOOO- N.
instead of C-L-E-M-S-O.........N.
Does that make any sense??
NDohio
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kmoose
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Glad to hear you made it home safe, and presumably still have a home to return to. The pictures on TV are just incredible.