Chicago White Sox... The thread.

Ricochet

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Not as *huge* of a return as originally was speculated, but getting a top 50 prospect (Rutherford checks in at 30) Clarkin, and a young prospect PLUS Clippard who could potentially bring forth more prospects is a huge boon for the Sox.

We gave up a rental player (Frazier), a decent closer (Robertson), and a guy in Kahnle who literally has been good for half a season. I'm happy with the return and will be ecstatic if Clippard can be flipped.
Clarkin is the real deal with great upside of a great #2 Starter, if he can stay healthy. That's what slowed his development but if he can stay healthy he will start moving fast through the minors.

Rutherford is a stud who will most likely be a LF and the Yankees think he's going to a future star and the only reason that they willing to deal him is because they got Clint Frazier last year and he's now doing quite well at the MLB level so with 2 rookie corner OF that they think are special talents in Judge and Frazier made him expendable.
 

Rogue219

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It was a good deal for both teams. Rutherford doesn't really have a future with the Yankees as Judge/Clint Frazier and likely Bryce Harper will be manning the outfield for the next 6-10 years. .

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Bryce Harper to Yankees someday? Nationals slugger not a fan of New York City | NJ.com

supposedly prefers the Cubs and doesn't like NYC much. We'll see when the numbers start flying
 

Wild Bill

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It was a good deal for both teams. Rutherford doesn't really have a future with the Yankees as Judge/Clint Frazier and likely Bryce Harper will be manning the outfield for the next 6-10 years.

Todd Frazier is much better than Chase Headley and should see his at bats improve hitting in a better lineup. The relievers now give the Yankees 6 above average to elite guys to throw out there in Chapman/Betances/Robertson/Kahnle/Green/Warren.

I agree, looks good on paper for both sides right now.

Is Judge going to stay in the outfield? I went to the game a few weeks ago against the Sox, the game where fans taunted him so he decided to belt one to left in response, and I sat behind the Yankees dugout. It could be a struggle for him to stay in the outfield if he fills out a bit more. He was right in front of me when he was waiting on deck to bat and I honestly can't believe that freak can play the outfield at his current size.
 

Rogue219

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Clarkin is the real deal with great upside of a great #2 Starter, if he can stay healthy. That's what slowed his development but if he can stay healthy he will start moving fast through the minors.

He is good enough to be a swing guy in the Majors. Back end starter or long reliever type of guy. I really like the pick up for the White Sox because Don Cooper seems to do pretty well with helping pitchers harness the most of their ability. Just not Jeff Samardzija for whatever reason.
 

Southside Sully

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this was good deal for both teams IMO

From the Joe Sheehan newsletter I receive (highly recommend subscribing):

White Sox/Yankees

After getting Eloy Jimenez and Dylan Cease in exchange for Jose Quintana, it seemed that Hahn would have to be done getting highly-rated prospects for his remaining saleable assets. Among Jose Abreu, David Robertson, Todd Frazier and others, there didn’t seem much that would return big value. That’s not to say Hahn couldn’t continue to bolster the system, but it seemed more likely he would add depth pieces or even organizational players rather than the likes of Jimenez and Lucas Giolito and Yoan Moncada.

So his ability to assemble a package, with two veterans and a reliever who’s been good for 14 weeks, to get yet another top-end prospect is impressive. Hahn sent Frazier, Robertson, and Tommy Kahnle to the Yankees last night in exchange for outfielder Blake Rutherford (#18 overall pick in 2016, MLB.com’s #30 overall prospect), two other prospects, and the obligation to pay the last of the $4.25 million being paid to Tyler Clippard this year. Rutherford is the prize, currently hitting .281/.342/.391 in his first full season in the Sally League. An old high schooler, Rutherford is already 20, which limits his projection, but MLB Pipeline rates him as having average to above-average tools across the board. Long term, he could be a #6 hitter with average to average-plus defense in an outfield corner. We can have an argument about Rutherford’s rank -- Keith Law, to pick an example, didn’t have Rutherford in his midseason top 50 -- but this is a player who was a first-round pick 13 months ago, He’s a valuable property that Hahn got for two veterans who were short-term Sox and whatever Kahnle is. Ian Clarkin, the second prospect, is an injury-case lefty just getting his career started four years after being drafted. He’s a low-upside lefty at least two years away. Tito Polo, the third prospect, is a great name with some chance of being a 25th man.

There’s a notion that the Yankees have made a significant upgrade to their bullpen, what with Clippard being less effective than the New York City subway system in July. While conceding that this is a bit of cheating with endpoints, the notion that Clippard is the worst reliever in this trade is a very new one.

36 Days Ago (Stats through June 12)

ERA IP K% K/UIBB
Clippard 1.73 26.0 31% 32/10
Kahnle 1.48 24.1 48% 43/5
Robertson 3.09 23.1 37% 33/6

I’m guessing I don’t have to tell you that Tyler Clippard had a longer track record of effectiveness than Tommy Kahnle did coming into 2017, and that he’d been within shouting distance of Robertson over the past few years as well. Clippard has gotten lost over the past five weeks, allowing 15 runs in 10 1/3 innings over his last 12 appearances, with ten strikeouts, eight walks and four homers allowed. He’s been at the center of a number of ugly Yankees losses -- they lost nine of ten games in which he appeared from June 13 through July 7 -- and had become the focal point of fan frustration with the bullpen’s performance.

Maybe Tommy Kahnle has turned a corner. Over at Fangraphs, Jeff Sullivan hit the timing lottery with a piece yesterday calling him a Sox trade chip and breaking down his performance so far. Kahnle is throwing harder and more effectively this year than he ever has before, and a 60/6 K/UIBB -- his season total, including a 43% strikeout rate -- is no joke. It’s possible that the Yankees have bought in early to a pitcher who will hold this level for the next few seasons. However, had I asked you a month ago who is better, Tyler Clippard or Tommy Kahnle, you would have said, “Who is Tommy Kahnle?” I think any evaluation of this trade that emphasizes the difference between Clippard and Kahnle today is really emphasizing five weeks of difference, fewer than 20 innings of work. Maybe this is one career ending and another beginning, but if you’re the Yankees, it pretty much has to be for this deal to be an upgrade.

Robertson returns from whence he came, and like Kahnle adds depth to a bullpen that has been ridden hard and, given the condition of the starting rotation, will continue to be ridden hard. He’s a credible average reliever now, and he’s signed for 2018 as well. The Yankees, if nothing else, have just about locked down their bullpen for next season in this deal.

The third piece, Todd Frazier, is a known quantity, a durable, league-average hitter who plays average to slightly better defense at third base. He hit .220/.311/.454 in his time in Chicago, good for a 107 OPS+ and 102 wRC+. Instead of replacing Chase Headley at third base in New York, Frazier may instead inherit the playing time of the team’s first basemen, with either he or Headley taking over at the cold corner. This might be an upgrade -- Yankees’ first basemen have hit .208/.295/.391 this year in the wake of Greg Bird’s injury-riddled season -- but it’s far from a big one. Frazier has played first base infrequently and, by the numbers, poorly, while Headley has 62 career innings over there, so there could be a defensive hit as well. Even after this, the Yankees could still be in the market for the likes of Yonder Alonso or Lucas Dude. Todd Frazier just doesn’t change the offense much.

It’s tangential, but this is the kind of trade that makes me think about how interesting it would be if teams could trade their draft picks. The Yankees have basically sent their first-round pick, a year removed, out for a package that might make them a win or two better over the rest of the season, and is hardly guaranteed to even do that. Framed that way, it’s not a good deal. Even if you think it is, that disagreement in and of itself would add interest and intrigue to the draft that simply isn’t there now. I would like to see how teams value their first-round picks, and this deal definitely gives us an idea of what the 18th pick in the draft is worth in the trade market.

Anyway, Rick Hahn did more work here, adding a piece of real value for what amounts to ephemera. There’s at least some chance he can turn Clippard into something as well, if not this month, then next. The Yankees paid a steep price without changing their outlook all that much. They’ve now been a pretty bad team for more than two months -- 26-35 since May 8 -- and many of the hitters whose big starts drove the offense have regressed back to their expected numbers or headed to the disabled list. The stable rotation has seen Michael Pineda lost to Tommy John surgery, and is leaning heavily on two young starters who have never seen 160 innings in a season before. The best-case scenario is that the Yankees hold on for a wild card slot; the worst is that they’ve dealt a rated prospect to no good end.
 

BobbyMac

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All I can say is, don't let the Yanks get to the 7th with a lead because that pen ain't no joke.
 

Southside Sully

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No, the family wants the Bulls after he dies


I doubt they are for sale. The family said they don't want the Sox, but JR won't sell the team and pass the tax burden onto them.

I interned for the Sox in 2004. I still have many contacts within the organization of people I interned with or worked for. It is quietly discussed amongst those people that the team is privately shopped amongst very tight circles.
 

ozzman

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I interned for the Sox in 2004. I still have many contacts within the organization of people I interned with or worked for. It is quietly discussed amongst those people that the team is privately shopped amongst very tight circles.

I know they're super profitable and the best sweetheart stadium deal in the MLB, so hopefully they find a good suitor.
 

gkIrish

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I agree, looks good on paper for both sides right now.

Is Judge going to stay in the outfield? I went to the game a few weeks ago against the Sox, the game where fans taunted him so he decided to belt one to left in response, and I sat behind the Yankees dugout. It could be a struggle for him to stay in the outfield if he fills out a bit more. He was right in front of me when he was waiting on deck to bat and I honestly can't believe that freak can play the outfield at his current size.

He has a cannon for an arm and is a good fielder otherwise so I don't see him moving in the next 5 years. I could see him being a DH later in his career but not sure where else he could play besides possibly first.
 

BobbyMac

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I interned for the Sox in 2004. I still have many contacts within the organization of people I interned with or worked for. It is quietly discussed amongst those people that the team is privately shopped amongst very tight circles.

I know they're super profitable and the best sweetheart stadium deal in the MLB, so hopefully they find a good suitor.

How about Mark Cuban and his partner, Todd Wagner? Wagner is from Gary (around Kitty's age) ...and all Mill Rats are Sox fans. They might have enough scratch to buy it.

I could see Cuban legally changing his name to Soxan for publicity and imagine the wifi upgrades and all Sox games would be broadcast on HDNet in UltraHD.
 

ND NYC

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Sully:
Sheehan knows his stuff that's for sure, but I think Sheehan primarily thinks it's bad for the Yanks because he thinks Clippard is as good/better than kuhnle...maybe even robertson (based on clippards early season stats).
he may have a point there, (hee did great beginning of the year) but clippard simply had to go, ive watched pretty much every yankee game and he was right in the middle leading a bullpen collapse in damn near every close game in last 6 weeks. clippard and the yanks will benefit from a change I think.
plus, we kept these guys away from boston, I think frazier would have been a more effective hitter at fenway than in the Bronx. so, for the yanks, keeping these guys from them also helps us.

like all trades, time will tell.
 

Rogue219

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The Bulls keep selling out no matter how bad they are. It's like dinner theater in Chicago. People with disposable income just go for the sake of going. The quality of the product really doesn't matter.

There's no reason for them to change course as long as they sell out. It's actually a shame they backed into the playoffs this year. Jerry got a few extra dollars with that series against Boston.

The Bulls are in basketball hell. They should be next to start tossing deck chairs overboard.
 

Southside Sully

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How about Mark Cuban and his partner, Todd Wagner? Wagner is from Gary (around Kitty's age) ...and all Mill Rats are Sox fans. They might have enough scratch to buy it.

I could see Cuban legally changing his name to Soxan for publicity and imagine the wifi upgrades and all Sox games would be broadcast on HDNet in UltraHD.

As much as most would love this JR does not like Cuban and will never approve a deal to him..

Cuban wouldn't be your typical baseball owner, which is just fine
 

Southside Sully

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Sully:
Sheehan knows his stuff that's for sure, but I think Sheehan primarily thinks it's bad for the Yanks because he thinks Clippard is as good/better than kuhnle...maybe even robertson (based on clippards early season stats).
he may have a point there, (hee did great beginning of the year) but clippard simply had to go, ive watched pretty much every yankee game and he was right in the middle leading a bullpen collapse in damn near every close game in last 6 weeks. clippard and the yanks will benefit from a change I think.
plus, we kept these guys away from boston, I think frazier would have been a more effective hitter at fenway than in the Bronx. so, for the yanks, keeping these guys from them also helps us.

like all trades, time will tell.

Totally... You might have the best bullpen in the American League now hands down. Like Crusader said, get a lead get to the 6th or 7th hold it down. I really like the way the Sox outfield has shaped up and everything is potential, nothing is proven. I am going to the game tonight to seen Moncadas first game. Sox sold 4000 tickets over night when it was announced. Thats great to see for Sox progress to get money and sock it away for when we need it.

Frazier will be a fan favorite. Guy is a class act and is great with the fans when hes at 3rd in between innings etc. Hope you can get him a ring.
 

Rogue219

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I know they're super profitable and the best sweetheart stadium deal in the MLB, so hopefully they find a good suitor.

There is a lot to like, and that stadium deal is a major jewel for anyone that would be interested.
 

Crazy Balki

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The Bulls keep selling out no matter how bad they are. It's like dinner theater in Chicago. People with disposable income just go for the sake of going. The quality of the product really doesn't matter.

There's no reason for them to change course as long as they sell out. It's actually a shame they backed into the playoffs this year. Jerry got a few extra dollars with that series against Boston.

The Bulls are in basketball hell. They should be next to start tossing deck chairs overboard.

They already have. The Butler trade was the beginning of the rebuild. They're gonna suck big time next year.
 

Rogue219

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They already have. The Butler trade was the beginning of the rebuild. They're gonna suck big time next year.

As long as John Paxson and Gar Foreman are running that team, you're spinning your wheels.

Jerry and Kenny had to get out of Rick Hahn's way with the White Sox. They've done that. The Bulls need to get out of their own way, and that starts with cleaning out that front office.

Reinsdorf loves his people. He rewards loyalty with front office jobs, coaching positions, etc. I think Rick Hahn is a smarter baseball guy than Kenny Williams, so they may have gotten lucky there. The Bulls may need to go outside of their comfort zone to get back to be relevant again. Jerry doesn't do that.
 

Crazy Balki

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As long as John Paxson and Gar Foreman are running that team, you're spinning your wheels.

Jerry and Kenny had to get out of Rick Hahn's way with the White Sox. They've done that. The Bulls need to get out of their own way, and that starts with cleaning out that front office.

Reinsdorf loves his people. He rewards loyalty with front office jobs, coaching positions, etc. I think Rick Hahn is a smarter baseball guy than Kenny Williams, so they may have gotten lucky there. The Bulls may need to go outside of their comfort zone to get back to be relevant again. Jerry doesn't do that.

To be fair, GarPax did effectively draft Deng, Noah, Rose and Butler. Can't blame them that 3 of the 4 integral pieces of the core dropped off via injury. That was their plan and it imploded out of their control.

It's also unpopular opinion, but I agree with the Thibs firing. He was a insanely overrated coach. Great defensive mind, but what good is that when your players are limping into the playoffs? Also, as great a defensive coach he was, he was an equally terrible offensive coach. Had it not been for a healthy D-Rose, he'd be royally screwed on that end.

For me, my GarPax hate begins and ends with the hiring of Fred Hoiberg. I just didn't get it and still don't. Perhaps they were trying to catch lightning in a bottle ala Brad Stevens? Except Stevens is charismatic and a masterful tactician, Hoiberg is emotionless and about as difficult to dissect in-game than a 4 piece jigsaw puzzle. So, I don't think GarPax deserves the hate they receive, but on the flip side, I wouldn't lose sleep if they were fired.
 

Crazy Balki

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I think it's now a reasonable time to starting wondering if the White Sox will win another game this season?
 

BobbyMac

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I think it's now a reasonable time to starting wondering if the White Sox will win another game this season?

It's reasonable for me to then ask you if you'd like to make a little wager. I'll take yes.
 

Crazy Balki

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It's reasonable for me to then ask you if you'd like to make a little wager. I'll take yes.

I was definitely not being serious. I was more so making a joke to emphasize how ungodly terrible they are right now.
 

Crazy Balki

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Lackey had a moment of pure shiteness in the 5th, where he hit back to back batters.

Other than that, the strike calls were pretty damn awful all day. Can't fault Moncada for his rough day, because he got conned into strike zones by dreadful low calls twice. Bryant also got ejected off a bad call.
 

IrishSteelhead

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Lackey had a moment of pure shiteness in the 5th, where he hit back to back batters.

Other than that, the strike calls were pretty damn awful all day. Can't fault Moncada for his rough day, because he got conned into strike zones by dreadful low calls twice. Bryant also got ejected off a bad call.



Split at home, keep the CTC, give us a few days to be happy about something.
 

Southside Sully

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If a general manager is looking at his batting average and RBIs, I weep for that team.

What contending team can use him? He's horrible defensively, even for a left fielder, and doesn't give you anywhere near the OBP and SLG to make up for being bad at a corner outfield position.

Among qualified MLB LF who are regulars, he's horrendous. Nobody is going to want him, and if you get a phone call from one that does, you don't hang up until you've agreed on a deal. Rick Hahn would bust a nut to get him out the door today if he could.

So long Melky....

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/07/white-sox-trade-melky-cabrera-royals.html
 
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