BVG Fired

[DCirishfan]

Lol I chuckled at this. Very true though. Any anti-Kelly speech is considered heresy.

It was worse with Weis cause he was a"nd guy". Couldn't say dick about him.

 

[tussin]

Is there any precedent for a mid season firing?

 

[NDgradstudent]

I looked at the 247 ratings of defensive signees at top programs (is ND a top program? Well, if you have to ask...) from the 2012, 13, and 14 classes. I then looked at the average PPG ranking in the 2014 and 15 season.

We don't recruit like Bama or OSU, but we aren't actually asking for an "elite" defense. We are asking for a functional defense. We haven't got it, and lack of talent is not the reason.

I feel really bad for Kizer that he has to put up with this garbage. Uncle Rico must go.

 

[tussin]

Talent is not the issue. It's scheme. If we have even a top 30 defense then it's playoff time.

BVG cannot coach. The game had passed him by. It's time to cut him loose.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

I looked at the 247 ratings of defensive signees at top programs (is ND a top program? Well, if you have to ask...) from the 2012, 13, and 14 classes. I then looked at the average PPG ranking in the 2014 and 15 season.

We don't recruit like Bama or OSU, but we aren't actually asking for an "elite" defense. We are asking for a functional defense. We haven't got it, and lack of talent is not the reason.

I feel really bad for Kizer that he has to put up with this garbage. Uncle Rico must go.

That is truly awful, especially when considering the only team that has been nearly as bad is USC who have dealt with depth issues resulting from sanctions.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I looked at the 247 ratings of defensive signees at top programs (is ND a top program? Well, if you have to ask...) from the 2012, 13, and 14 classes. I then looked at the average PPG ranking in the 2014 and 15 season.

We don't recruit like Bama or OSU, but we aren't actually asking for an "elite" defense. We are asking for a functional defense. We haven't got it, and lack of talent is not the reason.

I feel really bad for Kizer that he has to put up with this garbage. Uncle Rico must go.

Wait does that include the national championship game year? Because if it does, the stats are way worse than that implies.

 

[GATTACA!]

Wait does that include the national championship game year? Because if it does, the stats are way worse than that implies.

Edit: oh shit yeah it would. Yikes I wonder what it would look like with that outlier factored out.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Wait does that include the national championship game year? Because if it does, the stats are way worse than that implies.

The PPG data is just from 14 and 15 (BVG's tenure as DC). The recruit rating data is from 2012-14 to try to account for the effect that those recruits had on performance.

 

[irishfanjho15]

Is there any precedent for a mid season firing?

Shouldn't need precedent. This is major D1 college football, and it's Notre Dame. My biggest problem with the defense isn't scheme, lack of push, etc. It's that if they would have just made 1/3 of their missed tackles the offense probably gets the ball back at least three, if not five more times during that game. And for all the problems, the offense was very strong last night, especially considering pretty much every perimeter player was unproven.

Tackling should be the number one focus of any defense, especially in the "get them in space" place football offense is today. The fact that this continues to be a problem along with all the others just kills me.

 

[GATTACA!]

I think that was more about not trusting the young receivers yet, though I still have problems with that considering that ESB looks to be the next go-to guy.

He also probably didn't factor a 45 yard shank by Newsome into his decision. That punt made the conservative play calling look much worse in retrospect.

 

[palinurus]

It's scheme and fundamentals. Would you argue that our current talent level is any worse than what Boise had when they started their climb up the rankings?
We tackle like shit and refuse to wrap up. Our slot coverage seems to think it's ok to stay in his stance and wait to turn and run until after the receiver is already 2 yards past him.
At least 3 times last night the defense was caught standing around instead of being down and ready.

Exotic blitz packages has become the new schematic advantage.

This. This is the single biggest factor. I defer to experts about scheme, and maybe even about talent. But the single biggest, recurring issue last night was hitting ball carriers flush, and having them go another two or three yards (minimum) or breaking free altogether. (Anybody know how many tackles for a loss ND had? And how many outside of the 19 minutes from 10:00 of the third quarter to 6:00 of the fourth?) I'm no Tom Landry, but that strikes me less a "talent" or "scheme" issue, than an issue of technique and physical strength and, possibly, conditioning. Let me hand pick two or three plays last night (maybe fewer) where the tackle "stuck" and it's a different game; and I'm not cherry picking: it was a recurring, chronic problem.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Is there any precedent for a mid season firing?

This is a historically unprecedented period of defensive incompetence.

 

[kmoose]

Tackling should be the number one focus of any defense, especially in the "get them in space" place football offense is today. The fact that this continues to be a problem along with all the others just kills me.

I'm pretty sure that part of it is youth. I don't think I saw Studstill do anything other than hit people with a shoulder last night. In High School, last year, that probably was all it took for him; because he was probably one of the biggest, fastest, strongest kids on the field. But now it ain't gonna work, because everyone is at least as big, fast, and strong as he is. He will learn it, but it will take time. The coaches need to find a way to accelerate that learning curve for him, and others, though.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I'm pretty sure that part of it is youth. I don't think I saw Studstill do anything other than hit people with a shoulder last night. In High School, last year, that probably was all it took for him; because he was probably one of the biggest, fastest, strongest kids on the field. But now it ain't gonna work, because everyone is at least as big, fast, and strong as he is. He will learn it, but it will take time. The coaches need to find a way to accelerate that learning curve for him, and others, though.

But isn't that what practice is for? He should have known this the first day of full contact in practice. If not, I would look at just how physical practice really is. Could that be why there seems to be a lack of physicality and technique? Bad habits, no technique, and lack of coaching equal mediocre results game day.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

But isn't that what practice is for? He should have known this the first day of full contact in practice. If not, I would look at just how physical practice really is. Could that be why there seems to be a lack of physicality and technique? Bad habits, no technique, and lack of coaching equal mediocre results game day.

You guys do know Studstill missed half of fall camp with an injury. Who knows if he is even 100%.


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[T Town Tommy]

You guys do know Studstill missed half of fall camp with an injury. Who knows if he is even 100%.


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Didn't know that. May explain away some of his technique. But the other players....

 

[bluengold4732]

There was definitely a lot of "gang tackling" last night and it wasn't because the D was aggressive and flying to the ball. It literally took 3-5 guys to bring Swoopes and Foreman down. Very reminiscent of the Bama game where guys were falling off the ball carrier and holding on for dear life

 

[dmort]

Weiss thought he didnt need a defense either,just score score score.This was the first game of the season and usually the most improvement happens between weeks 1 and 2.

IMO the time to change BVG was at the end of last season.Kelly could fire him now but it would also make Kelly look bad as well.

 

[Guest]

Maybe you should have left the game thread and watched the game? ND started 2 sophomore CBs last night................Devin Studstill got EXTENSIVE minutes last night, and I also saw Julian Love's name get called on Defense.

I said freshman, not sophomores Einstein ( I have two posts here on that subject, different threads). And I meant all of them, not just two. It should be a rotation just like the DL until they figure out who can play. Forget redshirts, the team needs to find leaders at DB regardless of how old they are.

 

[Guest]

Yeah. This is what happens when you think every 3 star is a steal, and every 4-star with a .903 rating is the same as bamas 4-star with a .97 rating.

We got bullied at the LOS by an offensive line of high schoolers, and our entire defensive back field is simply slow. Our talent isn't that great and I'm not surprised.

I was shocked at how Texas controlled the lines last night. We supposedly have more depth and experience on both. How in the hell did that offensive line control our Dline last night? Unbelievable.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Yeah. This is what happens when you think every 3 star is a steal, and every 4-star with a .903 rating is the same as bamas 4-star with a .97 rating.

We got bullied at the LOS by an offensive line of high schoolers, and our entire defensive back field is simply slow. Our talent isn't that great and I'm not surprised.

If you scroll up and see the chart I made, you'll see that our talent, at least by 247's ratings, is middle of the pack among 'top' programs, but our results are the worst of the lot the last two seasons. So I don't think the data provides evidence for this claim. An elite defense is one thing, and we may never have that with our current talent; however, we only need a competent defense.

 

[IrishLax]

Talent is not the issue. It's scheme. If we have even a top 30 defense then it's playoff time.

BVG cannot coach. The game had passed him by. It's time to cut him loose.

Our back end has one legit player right now (Cole Luke)... two if you count Crawford. The problem is MASSIVE HOLES at the 3rd CB and safety.

I don't care what coach you have if your corner just flat out can't cover a guy AND the safeties are too slow to play coverage AND your safeties can't tackle in run support.

This is not a defense of BVG, it's in large part his fault that we don't have depth back there and are instead playing guys who aren't ready. Scheme is also an issue but you could've had Diaco, Mason, Durkin, whoever coaching that D last night and Coleman is still going to get burned, safety help over the top still won't get there, missed tackles were still going to happen, and the run support was still going be non-existent.

I don't think enough people realize the entire point of the veer and shoot is to isolate and exploit 1v1 matchups and that's exactly what Texas did all night long.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Our back end has one legit player right now (Cole Luke)... two if you count Crawford. The problem is MASSIVE HOLES at the 3rd CB and safety.

I don't care what coach you have if your corner just flat out can't cover a guy AND the safeties are too slow to play coverage AND your safeties can't tackle in run support.

This is not a defense of BVG, it's in large part his fault that we don't have depth back there and are instead playing guys who aren't ready. Scheme is also an issue but you could've had Diaco, Mason, Durkin, whoever coaching that D last night and Coleman is still going to get burned, safety help over the top still won't get there, missed tackles were still going to happen, and the run support was still going be non-existent.

Problem is if we had any of those names as a DC and were in the exact same position personnel wise, we win last nights game.

 

[IrishLax]

Problem is if we had any of those names as a DC and were in the exact same position personnel wise, we win last nights game.

Agree and disagree somewhat. It's weird to me that people can watch that game and not realize how utterly unprepared/under talented we are at certain positions. You can't "scheme" these guys to be better. Some times you're just "Joe Schmidt."

What I do agree with is that I think it wouldn't have taken another coach so long to realize he had to play super soft coverage on the outside because some guys couldn't turn and run with their outside receivers. I don't think a coach could fix all the whiffed tackles in the first and second levels that ultimately cost us the game.

 

[IrishLax]

Should have offered Bud Foster the moon when Beamer hung it up.

Bud Foster has some serious skeletons in the closet.

 

[GATTACA!]

But isn't that what practice is for? He should have known this the first day of full contact in practice. If not, I would look at just how physical practice really is. Could that be why there seems to be a lack of physicality and technique? Bad habits, no technique, and lack of coaching equal mediocre results game day.

You can be a lot more physical in practice when there are 95 guys on your squad. No shade, I wish ND would take a note from Bama on that one.

 

[GATTACA!]

Bud Foster has some serious skeletons in the closet.

I'll take a guy with a morgue in his basement if he can fix this defense.

 

[greyhammer90]

Bud Foster has some serious skeletons in the closet.

Don't care. I want a defense that doesn't cause me to drink in anticipation.

 

[IrishLax]

The guy I think ND needs to target if he gets fired this year is Derek Mason at Vandy. Proven defensive coach at high academic institutions.

 

[jerboski]

Agree and disagree somewhat. It's weird to me that people can watch that game and not realize how utterly unprepared/under talented we are at certain positions. You can't "scheme" these guys to be better. Some times you're just "Joe Schmidt."

What I do agree with is that I think it wouldn't have taken another coach so long to realize he had to play super soft coverage on the outside because some guys couldn't turn and run with their outside receivers. I don't think a coach could fix all the whiffed tackles in the first and second levels that ultimately cost us the game.

Lax how is it that Houston, BC, Michigan state for a awhile
and other schools can play good to decent defense with a roster full of 2 and 3 stars yet the majority of our guys are 4 to high 3 stars and we can't stop a nosebleed. I am not saying your wrong that there are talent and recruiting decencies within our defense but I do adamantly disagree with you that another DC couldn't fix or get better results. BVG has been terrible in every regard and needs to be canned and should have been canned after the OSU game, I agree with you that we need to land more
Defensive talent but we also need a new DC and possibly a whole new defensive staff, I don't see one area of defense we play well.