Brock Turner Rape Case

[IrishLion]

If psychological damage to the victim were the driving factor, beating your wife would be "worse" than raping an unconscious person, and I think we all agree that's not the case.

So an unconscious person isn't going to be as psychologically damaged, because they weren't awake when they were violated?

I would argue that it would make it even worse and MORE psychologically damaging, because they know they are violated to the worst degree, but they have no recollection. There is literally no way to make someone feel more defenseless or stripped of privacy than to assault them in the worst way, without their knowledge or recollection.

 

[Monk]

How about we teach our young men not to be entitled douchebags. The women have done nothing wrong, nor asked for this so why should they be "educated" on anything? Worst thing that happened to me in those college years was passing out and I got black markered from head to toe complete with penises and other descriptive language. Its a double standard to say lets educate the women who, you know, haven't done anything and let the bros off the hook.

I think you are missing his point. I believe what he is saying is their are entitled douchebags out there and they can do women harm. Hopefully this act won't take away from the fact that women have to know the circumstances they may face in a certain situation. It is not right, or fair that women have to do this, but there will always be predators out there. Also yes, young men do have to be educated about not being entitled douchebags. This should be done first by the parents as you eluded to with your boys. I also tell my two sons how to treat women and I try and show them through my actions with my wife. No men do not get a free pass here and I don't believe Wizard was trying to say that.

 

[wizards8507]

So an unconscious person isn't going to be as psychologically damaged, because they weren't awake when they were violated?

Read the next five words after what you bolded. I said I don't agree with that line of thinking, I was just pointing out what I consider a flaw in phork's position.

I would argue that it would make it even worse and MORE psychologically damaging, because they know they are violated to the worst degree, but they have no recollection. There is literally no way to make someone feel more defenseless or stripped of privacy than to assault them in the worst way, without their knowledge or recollection.

You're assuming the victim finds out after the fact. Consider a victim who never finds out that she was violated at all. The argument that "psychological harm to the victim determines the severity of the crime" would conclude, essentially, no-harm, no-foul. Obviously that's ridiculous, which is why I don't think the argument that "psychological harm to the victim determines the severity of the crime" is a particularly strong one.

 

[IrishLion]

Read the next five words after what you bolded. I said I don't agree with that line of thinking, I was just pointing out what I consider a flaw in phork's position.

You're assuming the victim finds out after the fact. Consider a victim who never finds out that she was violated at all. The argument that "psychological harm to the victim determines the severity of the crime" would conclude, essentially, no-harm, no-foul. Obviously that's ridiculous, which is why I don't think the argument that "psychological harm to the victim determines the severity of the crime" is a particularly strong one.

I misunderstood your "indicator" before the part I bolded, which lead to my conclusion, so my apologies for that.

But I think I agree with Phork on the psychological affect playing a large part, as I said in my first response to your original question.

"The victim can't be psychologically distraught if she doesn't know it even happened" should have no bearing on this discussion, because the discussion which you started is about punishment for acts in which a perpetrator is caught. If the perpetrator is caught, the victim knows.

 

[wizards8507]

"The victim can't be psychologically distraught if she doesn't know it even happened" should have no bearing on this discussion, because the discussion which you started is about punishment for acts in which a perpetrator is caught. If the perpetrator is caught, the victim knows.

I know I mentioned sentencing guidelines, but I was thinking about it more in the abstract and less within the confines of the legal system. Extralegally, I think everyone would agree that a rape in which the victim never finds out due to mental incapacitation is at least as heinous as one in which she is awake for the assault.

 

[IrishLion]

I know I mentioned sentencing guidelines, but I was thinking about it more in the abstract and less within the confines of the legal system. Extralegally, I think everyone would agree that a rape in which the victim never finds out due to mental incapacitation is at least as heinous as one in which she is awake for the assault.

Right, rape is rape regardless of the victim's disposition, obviously.

I just think that when considering the idea of "rape," even in an abstract way, it is automatically tied to guilt and our awareness of the victim.

Even if the victim didn't know, and thus had no psychological recollection/impact from the act, it is still a fact that WE, the people considering the crime, know that the victim WOULD be psychologically destroyed if they were aware of it.

 

[NDVirginia19]

How about we teach our young men not to be entitled douchebags. The women have done nothing wrong, nor asked for this so why should they be "educated" on anything? Worst thing that happened to me in those college years was passing out and I got black markered from head to toe complete with penises and other descriptive language. Its a double standard to say lets educate the women who, you know, haven't done anything and let the bros off the hook.

Have you ever been taught "make sure you park your car under the lightpost" or "Lock the door to your car" ?

Being educated on tips to avoid potential criminals is not bad, and it isn't victim shaming. It's good advice that can help keep you safe. Knowing that there are going to be bad predatory people at college parties, it might be smart to watch how much you drink. This Stanford case is just one example of the courts failing and letting a rapist off the hook, but I think by and large it has more to deal with the corrupt way that athletes get off the hook. With ample evidence that proves the crime, 99% of rapists are going away far longer than 6 months.

 

[phork]

Have you ever been taught "make sure you park your car under the lightpost" or "Lock the door to your car" ?

Being educated on tips to avoid potential criminals is not bad, and it isn't victim shaming. It's good advice that can help keep you safe. Knowing that there are going to be bad predatory people at college parties, it might be smart to watch how much you drink. This Stanford case is just one example of the courts failing and letting a rapist off the hook, but I think by and large it has more to deal with the corrupt way that athletes get off the hook. With ample evidence that proves the crime, 99% of rapists are going away far longer than 6 months.

I don't have to worry about parking my car under a light post. Or locking the doors to my car. Or worrying about how much I drink. Women shouldn't either.

 

[military_irish]

I don't have to worry about parking my car under a light post. Or locking the doors to my car. Or worrying about how much I drink. Women shouldn't either.

A person doesn't "have" to but it's a precautionary measure. This world can be a crazy, evil, and scary place. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

A victim should never be ashamed of anything that has happened to them. But a predator will often go after a 5 foot 100lb female before any adult male, especially if inebriated. It's horrible and we should not have to be in fear of that but like I mentioned earlier there are evil people in this world ready to pounce on the weakest prey.

 

[Monk]

I don't have to worry about parking my car under a light post. Or locking the doors to my car. Or worrying about how much I drink. Women shouldn't either.

You are right they shouldn't have to, but depending on the situation and location they are in it may be prudent to do so. For that matter depending on the situation and location you are in it may be prudent to do those things. I certainly am aware of the situation and locations I am in and take appropriate steps to increase my chances of not becoming a victim. Again, no one is saying it is the women/victims fault. All anyone is saying is that the knowledge to notice a potential shady situation can help anyone (male or female) to avoid a potential bad outcome.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I don't have to worry about parking my car under a light post. Or locking the doors to my car. Or worrying about how much I drink. Women shouldn't either.

In a perfect world, yeah, but this ain't a perfect world. Everybody here agrees that everyone should be taught to not rob & steal, to have respect for others' property and person, to not assault others, to be honest, and for men to not abuse or rape women. Unfortunately not all people learn those things. That's why in the real world we lock our doors, avoid walking through the bad part of town late at night, don't leave our valuables unattended and in plain sight, don't walk alone to our car at the far end of a parking lot at night, and why women should be taught not to get blind drunk at parties and put themselves in a vulnerable position. It's not fair and it would be great if they didn't have to worry about such stuff, but it's a reality of the world we live in.

I've always stressed to my daughters that they should never put themselves in a vulnerable or potentially dangerous situation by getting drunk at a party, going out to a bar by themselves, or getting "separated from the herd" especially when there are guys around that they don't know. I wish the world wasn't full of predators and people with a poor sense of right & wrong, but it is. Being taught how to avoid becoming someone's prey is part of being prepared to deal with the harsh realities of the real world.

 

[NDbrbkny]

would like to also add combined with the variable of prison overcrowding in california, plus the blame should also be directly going to the probation dept for recommending that paltry sentence

 

[Rhode Irish]

Isn't California to crowded in jails and sentencing light on all convicts? I'm being serious.

Yes. Obviously it is imperative to keep all the weed dealers locked up so no room to get rapists off the street. Priorities.

 

[NorthDakota]

and why women should be taught not to get blind drunk at parties and put themselves in a vulnerable position. It's not fair and it would be great if they didn't have to worry about such stuff, but it's a reality of the world we live in.

I've always stressed to my daughters that they should never put themselves in a vulnerable or potentially dangerous situation by getting drunk at a party, going out to a bar by themselves, or getting "separated from the herd" especially when there are guys around that they don't know. I wish the world wasn't full of predators and people with a poor sense of right & wrong, but it is. Being taught how to avoid becoming someone's prey is part of being prepared to deal with the harsh realities of the real world.

This...it's not condoning predatory behavior by men...or slut-shaming victims..it's about using your head. If you want to get dolled up(or not) and go have a fun time with your friends, that's great. Just be careful. That goes for guys too.

 

[IrishLax]

This...it's not condoning predatory behavior by men...or slut-shaming victims..it's about using your head. If you want to get dolled up(or not) and go have a fun time with your friends, that's great. Just be careful. That goes for guys too.

The problem is you can be as careful as possible and still get raped. You can get roofied by a friend you trust, you can get roofied by a bartender as closing, you can... you get the idea.

I agree that there are actions you can take that either increase or decrease your vulnerability. The only close ND friend I know* of to get assaulted while we were at school was the one who got blackout drunk every weekend. She was so irresponsible that she ended up in the hospital multiple times for drinking, and was kicked out of many different things. It's not coincidence that she ended up in a strange place with a strange dude and didn't remember how she got there, whereas my friends who didn't drink and went to SUB movies had no such experiences. Personal responsibility matters, but being a responsible person doesn't make you immune to rape, and that's why any sort of victim blaming or "guilt mitigation" is a bad idea.

*Chances are there were more, but she was the only one to ever talk about it and report anything.

 

[wizards8507]

The problem is you can be as careful as possible and still get raped. You can get roofied by a friend you trust, you can get roofied by a bartender as closing, you can... you get the idea.

I agree that there are actions you can take that either increase or decrease your vulnerability. The only close ND friend I know* of to get assaulted while we were at school was the one who got blackout drunk every weekend. She was so irresponsible that she ended up in the hospital multiple times for drinking, and was kicked out of many different things. It's not coincidence that she ended up in a strange place with a strange dude and didn't remember how she got there, whereas my friends who didn't drink and went to SUB movies had no such experiences. Personal responsibility matters, but being a responsible person doesn't make you immune to rape, and that's why any sort of victim blaming or "guilt mitigation" is a bad idea.

*Chances are there were more, but she was the only one to ever talk about it and report anything.

Nobody is suggesting that adequate preparation will make you immune to rape, nor that there's any fault on the part of a victim when a rape occurs. There are four facets that are each important:

Rape prevention

• Parents and society teach young men how to respect and treat women
• Young women are educated on how to protect themselves and minimize the risk of becoming a victim

After a rape

• Punish rapists, who are 100% responsible for the rape
• Care and compassion for the victims, who are 0% responsible for the rape

The bolded is where we're having the conversation. Unfortunately, political correctness has deemed that educating young women on how to minimize the risk of becoming a victim is somehow victim shaming. It's not, as that step in the process does nothing to undermine the other three. Even though women SHOULDN'T have to worry about being raped, it's ignorant to tell them that they DON'T have to worry about being raped. It's an is-ought problem. When we refuse to talk about rape prevention out of fear of victim-shaming, we're actually making rape more likely to occur, which is the most anti-woman position you can possibly have.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Jurors Are Refusing to Serve the Judge Who Sentenced Brock Turner

Several prospective jurors in this judge's next case have refused to sit on the jury due to their feelings and opinion of his sentencing of Turner.

 

[Voltaire]

As awful as this all is, that dead zoo gorilla mom has certainly caught a break.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

As awful as this all is, that dead zoo gorilla mom has certainly caught a break.

You mean once the family turned out to be black.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Jurors Are Refusing to Serve the Judge Who Sentenced Brock Turner

Several prospective jurors in this judge's next case have refused to sit on the jury due to their feelings and opinion of his sentencing of Turner.

So jurors who hold a bias, wont be jurors. is that a loss? lol. I don't get the hoopla, I learned in another thread saying judges are biased is wrong

 

[Booslum31]

You mean once the family turned out to be black.

What's your point?

 

[Irish#1]

The judge is starting to catch a lot of heat over this. I don't think we've heard the last of this and I won't be surprised if the sentence was changed (if that's possible).

 

[pkt77242]

California judge sentences man who raped sister to probation, citing "stigma" - CNN.com

WTF

 

[IrishLion]

California judge sentences man who raped sister to probation, citing "stigma" - CNN.com

WTF

At first I thought "Stigma" as in, "don't want to ruin the guilty party's life," and I was prepared to be triggered, but then I read the story and realized that the judge meant "the stigma and registered status will prevent him from living life as he wants to anyway."

Still not acceptable, though. All evidence that the guy has no remorse, coming from professionals, and the judge still let the guy off. He needs to rot in prison for a while before he gets out and realizes his life is f*cked.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Brock Turner's attorney cites "sexual outercourse" in ex-swimmer's appeal
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brock-turners-attorney-cites-sexual-outercourse-in-ex-swimmers-appeal/

You can't say that he doesn't have a creative lawyer.

 

[Circa]

Brock Turner's attorney cites "sexual outercourse" in ex-swimmer's appeal
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brock-turners-attorney-cites-sexual-outercourse-in-ex-swimmers-appeal/

You can't say that he doesn't have a creative lawyer.

In the picture you can see he is as high as he wanted to get and laughing at the fact that he's in the press now and "hahaha got high before reporting... If he was my kid.. No correct that he would never act like this or look like that If he was my blood.....

Douche Bag!

 

[Irish#1]

Brock Turner's attorney cites "sexual outercourse" in ex-swimmer's appeal
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brock-turners-attorney-cites-sexual-outercourse-in-ex-swimmers-appeal/

You can't say that he doesn't have a creative lawyer.

He should have his license to practice law revoked.