Another Shooting

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Buster Bluth

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Maybe we differ in our idea of what modest is.

Well what reforms does the NRA support? Genuinely curious. They tend to fully support the notion that everyone should just have a gun. That's kinda like the Cheeseburger Association of America saying if everyone just had a cheeseburger we'd solve our dietary problems.
 

Wild Bill

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Call Chicago for what it is: gang warfare. Same as in places like Oakland, LA, etc. That's not going to go away, and it probably never will. To equate mass-killings with that situation is like comparing apples to pears.

That being said, I'm sure y'all will be totally cool with South Chicago gearing up with high-capacity long guns and cruising through your next NRA meeting, GOP convention, or gun show, right?

Why are they different? It's the gun that's the problem, not the person, right?

I don't have any issues with people owning guns legally, including blacks on the south side. That's who you're talking about, right?
 

drayer54

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Well what reforms does the NRA support? Genuinely curious. They tend to fully support the notion that everyone should just have a gun. That's kinda like the Cheeseburger Association of America saying if everyone just had a cheeseburger we'd solve our dietary problems.

They supported FIX NICS recently. That one angered a lot of gun owners because the radical groups wanted to yell about it. This was the bipartisan bill that threw money out to people to get the database updated so that our current restrictions have a chance of working.

I have no issue with it as long as it doesn’t move the threshold for gun ownership. Also, I don’t want everyone to have a gun. I want everyone who is legally able to have a gun to have that choice. Whether or not I think they should have one doesn’t matter. Freedom for all.
 
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drayer54

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Why are they different? It's the gun that's the problem, not the person, right?

I don't have any issues with people owning guns legally, including blacks on the south side. That's who you're talking about, right?

Arm the blacks on the south side. Go for it. They probably need it more than me. We’ve been working with some minority gun advocates to try and boost our participation and support from people who aren’t white guys. We’ve seen a lot of success with inner city training programs and advocacy programs. I think gun owners as a community need to do a better job reaching out to these areas.

Black Guns Matter? NOC? 2A4E?

2A is for everyone.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Arm the blacks on the south side. Go for it. They probably need it more than me. We’ve been working with some minority gun advocates to try and boost our participation and support from people who aren’t white guys. We’ve seen a lot of success with inner city training programs and advocacy programs. I think gun owners as a community need to do a better job reaching out to these areas.

Black Guns Matter? NOC? 2A4E?

2A is for everyone.

Yes because everyone walking around with AK-47s seems to have ushered in an era of peace and tranquility in Mogadishu or the Middle East in general...

It is correct to say that inner city gun violence and mass shootings are apples and oranges. The first one is a socioeconomic problem at its core (albeit largely created and festered by unintended--and intended--consequence of various federal policies), the second one is what is grabbing the headlines. And the first one isn't getting worse, it's much better than it was thirty years ago.
 

drayer54

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Yes because everyone walking around with AK-47s seems to have ushered in an era of peace and tranquility in Mogadishu or the Middle East in general...

It is correct to say that inner city gun violence and mass shootings are apples and oranges. The first one is a socioeconomic problem at its core (albeit largely created and festered by unintended--and intended--consequence of various federal policies), the second one is what is grabbing the headlines. And the first one isn't getting worse, it's much better than it was thirty years ago.

The inner city shootings have been reduced when drug arrests are increased. The correlation between drug dealers in jail and “gun violence” going down is there.

Mass shootings are tough to stop. Most are weirdos where the red flags were all over the place I don’t see any of the bans or limits having any impact on crazy people. I’m all for anything that offers due process and keeps guns out of the hands of crazy people, but we can’t pretend that lunatics are 100% preventable. Ask the folks of Austin how their bomb laws worked last week.
 

IrishLax

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My wife was in DC for the march, I would've attended if I didn't have a work conflict. There is a lot of disagreement in this thread over gun control and gun rights in general and I don't really think I have anything unique to add... I will say I am firmly on the "let's start enacting serious nationwide gun control and see what works" side of things.

One thing I will opine on... the idea that these Parkland students should somehow be immune to criticism of their ideas/public statements because they survived a tragedy is beyond-fucking-stupid. The moment you take on the mantle of being the public face of a movement -- the moment that you decide you want to be a professional activist with thousands of social media followers and blue check mark -- you forfeit any perceived right to be treated any different than any other talking head.

If someone wants to criticize you for it, that's fair game. If you're too stupid to get into UCF but willing to go on CNN daily and imply everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot... again, you're fair game to someone making a counter argument.

I applaud what they (and others) have done spearheading a movement with incredible aptitude/success. But the idea of "shame on you for attacking these kids!!!" is quite melodramatic and silly.
 
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fightingirish26

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My wife was in DC for the march, I would've attended if I didn't have a work conflict. There is a lot of disagreement in this thread over gun control and gun rights in general and I don't really think I have anything unique to add... I will say I am firmly on the "let's start enacting serious nationwide gun control and see what works" side of things.

One thing I will opine on... the idea that these Parkland students should somehow one immune to criticism of their ideas/public statements because they survived a tragedy is beyond-fucking-stupid. The moment you take on the mantle of being the public face of a movement -- the moment that you decide you want to be a professional activist with thousands of social media followers and blue check mark -- you forfeit any perceived right to be treated any different than any other talking head.

When you do something like this:<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">These kids are so brainwashed and indoctrinated, that in ripping away the constitution they don't understand that they're ripping away away their rights completely, even their right to protest and freedom of speech.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MarchForOurLives?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MarchForOurLives</a> <a href="https://t.co/t1KU0WF4rD">pic.twitter.com/t1KU0WF4rD</a></p>— ����Jojoh888���� (@jojoh888) <a href="https://twitter.com/jojoh888/status/978069969379446784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 26, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
If someone wants to criticize you for it, that's fair game. If you're too stupid to get into UCF but willing to go on CNN daily and imply everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot... again, you're fair game to someone making a counter argument.

I applaud what they (and others) have done spearheading a movement with incredible aptitude/success. But the idea of "shame on you for attacking these kids!!!" is quite melodramatic and silly.

not sure if the same was done for that video, but...
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A viral photo and GIF of Parkland shooting survivor Emma González ripping up a copy of the U.S. Constitution is photoshopped, according to an editor at the publication where the original photo came from. <a href="https://t.co/jae7hMGzFF">https://t.co/jae7hMGzFF</a> <a href="https://t.co/vwRoW6f9eb">pic.twitter.com/vwRoW6f9eb</a></p>— WHAS11 News (@WHAS11) <a href="https://twitter.com/WHAS11/status/978028478137237506?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 25, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

IrishLax

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not sure if the same was done for that video, but...
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A viral photo and GIF of Parkland shooting survivor Emma González ripping up a copy of the U.S. Constitution is photoshopped, according to an editor at the publication where the original photo came from. <a href="https://t.co/jae7hMGzFF">https://t.co/jae7hMGzFF</a> <a href="https://t.co/vwRoW6f9eb">pic.twitter.com/vwRoW6f9eb</a></p>— WHAS11 News (@WHAS11) <a href="https://twitter.com/WHAS11/status/978028478137237506?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 25, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Hah! Shame on me for falling for fake news on Twitter. Thanks.

EDIT: LOL turns out me and a bunch of other rubes got played by some alt-right fuckers and mediocre photoshop skills... SMH...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/26/us/emma-gonzalez-photo-doctored-trnd/index.html

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">An animation of Parkland shooting survivor Emma Gonzalez ripping the US Constitution in two went viral on social media. It's fake. <a href="https://t.co/cZWCWKvTN0">https://t.co/cZWCWKvTN0</a> <a href="https://t.co/MS8GGTeYJp">pic.twitter.com/MS8GGTeYJp</a></p>— CNN (@CNN) <a href="https://twitter.com/CNN/status/978321157643522048?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 26, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Lesson learned... I follow way too many conservative ND fans that retweet bullshit into my feed...
 
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Legacy

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NRA, Background Checks

NRA, Background Checks

Following up on a prior post with NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre's remarks at CPAC that any gun control regulations are a "socialist wave" that "our American freedoms could be lost", it's worth looking at NRA's and the gun lobby's stance on background checks and some legal and legislative challenges.

Gun Control Act of 1968 (Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act)
This Legislation regulated interstate and foreign commerce in firearms, including importation, "prohibited persons", and licensing provisions. The Gun Control Act is passed and imposes stricter licensing and regulation on the firearms industry, establishes new categories of firearms offenses, and prohibits the sale of firearms and ammunition to felons and certain other prohibited persons. It also imposes the first Federal jurisdiction over "destructive devices," including bombs, mines, grenades and other similar devices.
- the NRA supported this legislation

By the time of the Brady Bill, the NRA's had begun to fight almos all gun control legislation.
Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, 1994
The Brady Bill amended the Gun Control Act of 1968 establishing waiting period of 5 days before a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may sell, deliver, or transfer a handgun to an unlicensed individual.This established the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) put in place certain interim provisions, which required a firearms dealer who proposes to transfer a handgun must receive from the transferee a statement (the Brady Form), containing the name, address and date[clarification needed] of the proposed transfer along with a sworn statement that the transferee is not among any of the classes of prohibited purchasers, verify the identity of the transferee by examining an identification document, and provide the "chief law enforcement officer" (CLEO) of the transferee's residence with notice of the contents (and a copy) of the Brady Form.
- The NRA challenged its constitutionality, backing Printz vs U.S. (1997). The Supreme Court found that the Brady Act's attempted "commandeering" of the sheriffs to perform background checks violated the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution because the federal government imposed a requirement on state and local enforcement without providing appropriations for the task.

Background Checks and Private Sales
- According to FBI data, more than 253 million background checks were conducted from Nov. 30, 1998, when the NICS launched, through the end of 2016. A separate report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics shows that more than 3 million, or 1.5 percent, of gun applications were denied between the Brady law’s effective date in 1994 and the end of 2015.
- A 2017 study estimated that 42% of US gun owners acquired their most recent firearm without a background check. According to the US Department of Justice, because federal law fails to require background checks by every person who sells or transfers a gun—known as universal background checks—“individuals prohibited by law from possessing guns can easily obtain them from private sellers and do so without any federal records of the transactions.” “The private-party gun market,” one study observed, “has long been recognized as a leading source of guns used in crimes.” Although this loophole is sometimes referred to as the “gun show” loophole, because of the particular problems associated with unlicensed sellers at gun shows, it applies to all private firearm sales, regardless of where they occur.
- A 2017 study estimated that 42% of US gun owners acquired their most recent firearm without a background check. Yet, since the federal background check requirement was adopted in 1994, over 3 million people legally prohibited from possessing a gun—mainly convicted felons, domestic abusers, and the dangerously mentally ill—have been denied a firearm transfer or permit. In 2014 alone, 147,000 prohibited people were blocked from acquiring guns by NICS, the federal background check system.

Results from states and federally licensed dealers reporting to NICS
- Most background checks on the NICS are conducted by the states, not federal agencies.
Only twenty-one states report that 80 percent or more of all felony arrests within the criminal history database have final dispositions recorded. For what it’s worth, Congress reports that 21 million felonies that have not been reported to the NICS amounting to 25% of all felons.
- During a 16-year period that ended in December 2014, more than 1 million prohibited people - including more than 100,000 convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence and nearly 50,000 with domestic-violence-related restraining orders - were denied guns after background checks submitted by federally licensed dealers according to a report by the Justice Department's inspector general.
- Criminals overwhelming buy guns from private party sellers. Ninety-six percent of criminals convicted of gun offenses obtained their guns through private sellers in a recent survey. The International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) have stated that, because individuals who fail a background check can easily access firearms from unlicensed sellers, “Guns are far too easily acquired by prohibited possessors, and too often end up being used in gun crime and gun violence.”

Private Sales and the NRA
- The National Rifle Association, meanwhile, has called the loophole “a critical safety valve in federal law” that “ensures that Americans’ rights to acquire firearms are not arbitrarily denied because of bureaucratic delays, inefficiencies, or mistakes in identity.”
- States with background checks have 63% fewer mass shootings by individuals who are prohibited from possessing guns and 64% fewer mass shootings involving domestic violence. States with comprehensive background check laws also experience 48% less gun trafficking, 38% fewer deaths of women shot by intimate partners, and 17% fewer firearms involved in aggravated assaults, per capita. States with universal background check requirements also have 53% fewer firearm suicides and 31% fewer overall suicides per capita than states without these laws.
- Criminals travel to obtain guns without background checks. Nevada has a gun show sponsored by multiple gun organizations with an estimated 65,000 attendees annually a few miles from the Las Vegas massacre. Firearms-related deaths and injuries increased 70 percent in parts of California in the weeks after gun shows in neighboring Nevada, which has fewer regulations on such events, a University of California.
- Chicago, attempting to prohibit guns acquired in neighboring states with less restrictive gun laws and registration of guns backed by police chiefs was taken to court by the NRA whose separate lawsuit was combined with another - McDonald v the City of Chicago - and mostly overturned. Firearm deaths in Chicago have worsened since that decision driven by gang-related crime.

NRA's official position and recent statements
- The NRA and the gun lobby opposes background checks, regulations by cities and states to restrict access to guns, closing the private seller loophole, and advocates ending the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) which they consider a "gun registry". Wayne LaPierre recently said about any further gun control limitations: "What they want are more restrictions on the law-abiding — think about that. Their solution is to make you, all of you, less free. They want to sweep right under the carpet the failure of school security, the failure of the family, the failure of America's school systems and even the unbelievable failure of the FBI."

- Another gun rights speaker at CPAC, Dana Loesch said: "We will not be gaslighted into thinking that we are responsible for a tragedy that we had nothing to do with. It is not our job to follow up on red flags. It is not our job to make sure that states are reporting to the background system." As noted, the NRA fought for control for the states control over background check reporting. Loesch also said: "Where are the stories about how only 38 states submit less than 80 percent of criminal convictions to the background check system? It’s only as good as what is submitted to it." implying legislation will not solve the background check system's failures. The NRA's official stance from its website: “NRA opposes expanding firearm background check systems.”

- LaPierre accused Democrats of making gun control an issue in order to "eradicate all individual freedoms."

Ninety percent of Americans support background checks for all gun sales - "universal background checks".
 
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connor_in

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not sure if the same was done for that video, but...
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A viral photo and GIF of Parkland shooting survivor Emma González ripping up a copy of the U.S. Constitution is photoshopped, according to an editor at the publication where the original photo came from. <a href="https://t.co/jae7hMGzFF">https://t.co/jae7hMGzFF</a> <a href="https://t.co/vwRoW6f9eb">pic.twitter.com/vwRoW6f9eb</a></p>— WHAS11 News (@WHAS11) <a href="https://twitter.com/WHAS11/status/978028478137237506?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 25, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I saw one person who tweeted this (actually the gif version) and I saw a ton of people retweeting the numerous versions of "people are tweeting this fake gif, it was actually a target".
 

Irishize

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Sorry, I'm just not smart enough to comprehend your superior logic. I fell horrible about that fact. I'm almost as stung as Cack, at this point.



I don't agree with "emotion driving both sides." It's more like stupidity and fear driving one side, and impatience in dealing with said stupidity on the other. I liked your article; it was entertaining. You missed the second part of your through-line, though:

So it wasn’t your emotions incorrectly labeling every mass shooter as a conservative...it was your stupidity (your word)?
 

wizards8507

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Hah! Shame on me for falling for fake news on Twitter. Thanks.

EDIT: LOL turns out me and a bunch of other rubes got played by some alt-right fuckers and mediocre photoshop skills... SMH...

Lesson learned... I follow way too many conservative ND fans that retweet bullshit into my feed...
I didn't take it as "fake" as much as a meme / satire. It's like the pictures of David Hogg dressed like a Nazi. No, he didn't ACTUALLY dress like a Nazi.
 

wizards8507

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Something fishy going on with Hogg's timeline. Not sure what's real and what's fake but check Twitter.

Also, I just watched his whole speech and his cadence is exactly the same as Dwight Schrute's when he wins salesman of the year and Jim introduced him to Mussolini.
 

NorthDakota

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Something fishy going on with Hogg's timeline. Not sure what's real and what's fake but check Twitter.

Also, I just watched his whole speech and his cadence is exactly the same as Dwight Schrute's when he wins salesman of the year and Jim introduced him to Mussolini.

Can you provide examples? I just see a bunch of his regular shit.
 
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IrishLax

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Al Sharpton's brother charged in shooting murder one day after he participated in anti-guns march<a href="https://t.co/5CSDGZJPEF">https://t.co/5CSDGZJPEF</a></p>— Luke Rosiak (@lukerosiak) <a href="https://twitter.com/lukerosiak/status/978658261758078976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 27, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

SMH.
 

NorthDakota

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Al Sharpton's brother charged in shooting murder one day after he participated in anti-guns march<a href="https://t.co/5CSDGZJPEF">https://t.co/5CSDGZJPEF</a></p>— Luke Rosiak (@lukerosiak) <a href="https://twitter.com/lukerosiak/status/978658261758078976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 27, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

SMH.

I about died haha about an hour away from me.
 

Legacy

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NRA, Dystopian View

NRA, Dystopian View

The message Wayne LaPierre of the NRA consistently conveys is a dystopian view of our society verging on lawlessness and homicides, with a rising totalitarian threat embodied in the "elite" of one party and the media intent on taking away all law-abiding Americans' freedoms infecting half of America with an impending takeover of our system of democracy whether it's a Democratic win of the Presidency that packs the Supreme Court in 2016 or a 2018 mid-term elections that put Democrats in charge of the Congress. Free commerce in the ability of Americans to defend themselves against the rising violence that threatens our way of life will be forever destroyed by this socialism. This is a looming threat that America has never faced before.

Once upon a time over eighty years ago (1934), lasting over fifty years (to 1968), America had The National Firearms Act (1934), which imposed an excise tax on the manufacture and mandated the registration of all transfers of certain guns through the federal NFA agency, and requiring permanent transfer of NFA guns across state lines to be reported to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). The tax was $200, a large amount in 1934 but remained unchanged. Firearms subject to the 1934 Act included shotguns and rifles having barrels less than 18 inches in length, certain firearms described as “any other weapons,” machineguns, and firearm mufflers and silencers.
National Firearms Act (ATF)

The NFA was a regulatory tool passed by Congress to combat the organized crime and to help prosecute criminal activity and to protect law-abiding Americans.

A Supreme Court case, Haynes v U.S., effectively ended much of the NFA's regulations, so Congress replaced it with the Gun Control Act of 1968 to meet constitutional objections against self-incriminations (5th Amendment) by the Court. It goes without saying that American society and its freedoms did not result in totalitarianism.
 

IrishLax

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Donations to NRA have tripled in the wake of the Stoneman Douglas shooting.
 

MJ12666

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After that march, and some op-eds calling for a repeal of 2A, they'll continue to go up.

I was considering joining (even though I don't own a gun) but when I read this earlier today I decided to simply give a donation which is tax deductible.
 
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