Alton Sterling

[GoIrish41]

I am not familiar with the Minnesota case but did the officer have previous knowledge of a gun on the individual he was asking to reach for the wallet? I assume no because it was a routine stop. Completely different facts.

I'm not saying he was reaching for a gun, or that the cops didn't overreact. I'm saying if you wait for someone to actually pull a gun out of their pocket you are risking your own life and I wouldn't ask cops to do that, especially with a guy who has an extensive criminal background.

Heard a brief piece about the Minnesota shooting on the radio this morning. The guy who was shot apparently informed the officer that he was armed and had a permit to carry a gun. Could be he was reaching for his wallet to present the documentation to the officer.

Several have brought up Alton Sterling's criminal background as if it was a motivating factor for police. Were they aware of his criminal background prior to the confrontation? I really don't see any way the could have been, based off of a 911 call. Seems like it was something learned after the fact.

 

[IrishLax]

I am not familiar with the Minnesota case but did the officer have previous knowledge of a gun on the individual he was asking to reach for the wallet? I assume no because it was a routine stop. Completely different facts.

I'm not saying he was reaching for a gun, or that the cops didn't overreact. I'm saying if you wait for someone to actually pull a gun out of their pocket you are risking your own life and I wouldn't ask cops to do that, especially with a guy who has an extensive criminal background.

I'm not going to post the video here, but it happened yesterday. It's beyond fucked. Unlike Alton Sterling... whose rap sheet strongly suggests he was a bad apple regardless of how people try to white wash it... this guy was a law abiding citizen, licensed to carry a gun, announced to the officer that he was arm and asked the officer what he wanted him to do... and then apparently tried to comply, but the officer got scared/trigger happy and shot him a half dozen times, because that's what happens when you infer a threat instead of actually confirming a threat before taking action. Weird that cops policing our own citizens have a lower threshold to justify shooting than soldiers in a combat zone.

 

[Monk]

It's being reported in the Minnesota case that the deceased announced to the officer he was carrying and was licensed to do so.

If you have time look up and watch the video from that case. It was taken by the passenger in the car and broadcast live on social media as it happened.

I have not watched the Minnesota video, but the Louisiana officers did not ask the suspect to reach for anything. They told him not to move and his right hand/arm was clearly moving and not just down towards his side. His right side was moving all over the place. You can also see clearly in the video he is moving his shoulder up and down as well as his arm. That is not just trying to put your arm down and surrender IMO. Whether he was trying to just be difficult and resist arrest or if he was actually going for his gun, I don't know, but the suspect put the officers in a very difficult situation.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

It's being reported in the Minnesota case that the deceased announced to the officer he was carrying and was licensed to do so.

If you have time look up and watch the video from that case. It was taken by the passenger in the car and broadcast live on social media as it happened.

Beware of another graphic video, but here's the link. Pulled over for a broken taillight.

Falcon Heights shooting: Woman livestreams aftermath - CNN.com

Aftermath of fatal Falcon Heights officer-involved shooting on video - StarTribune.com

The girlfriend said on the video that the officer “asked him for license and registration. He told him that it was in his wallet, but he had a pistol on him because he’s licensed to carry. The officer said don’t move. As he was putting his hands back up, the officer shot him in the arm four or five times.”

 

[IrishLax]

Falcon Heights just honestly bothers me so much that I literally did not sleep last night. I saw it right before going to bed and just could not fall asleep afterwards... instead stayed up reading and thinking and doing some design work until the morning.

Here's my thing... Alton Sterling, while unjust, is not the kind of person I lose sleep over. I just don't, not with that record. I don't really care if a pedophile, domestic abuser, druggie, gang member carrying an illegal firearm dies in some strange confluence of circumstance. Maybe that's a flaw in my humanity... but we need gun control to protect us from felons like Alton Sterling who illegally carry hand guns. So... whatever. If he wasn't illegally carrying a firearm I'm pretty sure he'd still be alive, don't you?

But in Minnesota that man was a law abiding citizen. He pulled his car over immediately. He told the officer up front that he had a weapon... a LEGAL weapon. He tried to do everything right. And he still got killed. That's just so fucked up. I don't mean to get overly emotional on the internet but his death is not only an injustice, it's a tragedy. And it makes me really sad, and really disappointed. This kind of shit is tearing the country apart.

 

[gkIrish]

I'm not going to post the video here, but it happened yesterday. It's beyond fucked. Unlike Alton Sterling... whose rap sheet strongly suggests he was a bad apple regardless of how people try to white wash it... this guy was a law abiding citizen, licensed to carry a gun, announced to the officer that he was arm and asked the officer what he wanted him to do... and then apparently tried to comply, but the officer got scared/trigger happy and shot him a half dozen times, because that's what happens when you infer a threat instead of actually confirming a threat before taking action. Weird that cops policing our own citizens have a lower threshold to justify shooting than soldiers in a combat zone.

The Minnesota situation sounds fucked up. The Sterling situation is fucked up, too.

But with the Sterling situation, the cops are called in because the guy is waving a gun around (if I understand the facts correctly). Guy is put on the ground forcefully and still seems to be resisting arrest. If he reaches towards his pocket I don't have a big problem with the cop believing he was reaching for his gun.

 

[Monk]

Beware of another graphic video, but here's the link. Pulled over for a broken taillight.

Falcon Heights shooting: Woman livestreams aftermath - CNN.com

Aftermath of fatal Falcon Heights officer-involved shooting on video - StarTribune.com

I don't think this situation and the Alton Sterling situation are the same. I would very much lean to the side of the victim in the Minnesota case. What a terrible tragedy.

 

[wizards8507]

Falcon Heights just honestly bothers me so much that I literally did not sleep last night. I saw it right before going to bed and just could not fall asleep afterwards... instead stayed up reading and thinking and doing some design work until the morning.

Here's my thing... Alton Sterling, while unjust, is not the kind of person I lose sleep over. I just don't, not with that record. I don't really care if a pedophile, domestic abuser, druggie, gang member carrying an illegal firearm dies in some strange confluence of circumstance. Maybe that's a flaw in my humanity... but we need gun control to protect us from felons like Alton Sterling who illegally carry hand guns. So... whatever. If he wasn't illegally carrying a firearm I'm pretty sure he'd still be alive, don't you?

But in Minnesota that man was a law abiding citizen. He pulled his car over immediately. He told the officer up front that he had a weapon... a LEGAL weapon. He tried to do everything right. And he still got killed. That's just so fucked up. I don't mean to get overly emotional on the internet but his death is not only an injustice, it's a tragedy. And it makes me really sad, and really disappointed. This kind of shit is tearing the country apart.

A minor point on Alton Sterling... he wasn't a pedophile. His charge of "carnal knowledge of a minor" came in 2000. He would have been 20 or 21 at the time and likely had sex with an underage girl. Still a sex offender, but misuse of the term "pedophile" is a pet peeve of mine.

 

[gkIrish]

Apparently Megan Kelly had Mark Furhman on to comment about the shooting.

SMDH

 

[Irish Insanity]

I have not watched the Minnesota video, but the Louisiana officers did not ask the suspect to reach for anything. They told him not to move and his right hand/arm was clearly moving and not just down towards his side. His right side was moving all over the place. You can also see clearly in the video he is moving his shoulder up and down as well as his arm. That is not just trying to put your arm down and surrender IMO. Whether he was trying to just be difficult and resist arrest or if he was actually going for his gun, I don't know, but the suspect put the officers in a very difficult situation.

I was only commenting on the Minnesota video.

I don't think this situation and the Alton Sterling situation are the same. I would very much lean to the side of the victim in the Minnesota case. What a terrible tragedy.

I approve this message.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Apparently Megan Kelly had Mark Furhman on to comment about the shooting.

SMDH

Incredible.

 

[TDHeysus]

I love how some attempt to rationalize this cop shooting bullsh*t as if it were the oversigning polices of SEC.

Cops are out of f*cking control, now they're shooting ppl for getting their license. Actually, I should say it just got caught on camera. All this BS has been going on for generations.


Do you know why bigfoot has never been caught on camera, yet incident after incident after incident of cops shooting/killing ppl have been caught on video numerous times?

because bigfoot is not real and never happened, while police shooting/killings happen a dime a dozen.

 

[Wild Bill]

Reasonable people don't assume when something isn't so obvious and/or normal.

A guy has two cops on top of him, and others surrounding them, and he thinks he's going to blow them away and, what...run for it? One might say you'd have to be pretty irrational to attempt that, and maybe he was, but a reasonable person doesn't assume that's what he was trying to do.

Whether a suspect is dangerous and how dangerous he may be is rarely obvious and difficult to determine. The use of deadly force is must be objectively reasonable given the facts and circumstances.

The suspect threatened to kill someone. He had a gun. He was actively resisting arrest. He appears to be reaching towards his pocket where he allegedly had a gun. Good luck convincing a jury he was not a threat to kill or seriously harm those officers.

I'm not suggesting I agree deadly force was justified. I don't know enough. But if the above facts are true, it's going to be difficult to prosecute the shooter.

Compare this to the Eric Garner case where the cop was set free. Garner didn't threaten anyone. He was committing a petty crime. He was not resisting (at least not in my opinion), he was trying to breath. He was unarmed and couldn't even pick himself up off the sidewalk. No reasonable person could have assumed he was an immediate threat to anyone. He was murdered and the murderer walked. My opinion, of course.

 

[wizards8507]

Cops are out of f*cking control, now they're shooting ppl for getting their license. Actually, I should say it just got caught on camera. All this BS has been going on for generations.

Anyone who paid attention in their concealed carry class knows you DO NOT reach for your driver's license when you're pulled over by the police. You put both hands firmly on the wheel and don't move a muscle until the officer is fully informed that you have a firearm and where it's located. Then you follow his instructions exactly. We don't know shit about what happened prior to the shooting and the only "testimony" we have is from the victim's girlfriend.

 

[GreyWorm]

Anyone who paid attention in their concealed carry class knows you DO NOT reach for your driver's license when you're pulled over by the police. You put both hands firmly on the wheel and don't move a muscle until the officer is fully informed that you have a firearm and where it's located. Then you follow his instructions exactly. We don't know shit about what happened prior to the shooting and the only "testimony" we have is from the victim's girlfriend.

I'd love to hear your explanation for the Minnesota accident if what the African-American woman's story is in fact true.

 

[GreyWorm]

On Sterling.

Sure he has a rough background, but when you're pinned on the ground with two officers in control of Sterling..does that really warrant multiple shots to the chest? Wouldn't the guy not on top be able to somewhat control Sterling's hand/arm?

I 110% understand things in real-time are much different than analyzing a video over and over, but Sterling shouldn't have lost his life over that situation.

I do find it weird that the body cams were dislodged during the confrontation. Yes, there was a physical altercation, but wouldn't you think those things support some physical contact?

 

[Wild Bill]

I'd love to hear your explanation for the Minnesota accident if what the African-American woman's story is in fact true.

He should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, the city should pay punitive damages to the victim's family and the police department should re-train officers to prevent this from happening again.

 

[wizards8507]

I'd love to hear your explanation for the Minnesota accident if what the African-American woman's story is in fact true.

It's very possible that this cop was jittery, poorly trained, or not mentally suited for the job and handled the situation wrongly. He might certainly be guilty of manslaughter or even murder if the facts bear that out. My biggest objection is to the implication that, because the victim was black, that the cop shot him because he was black. In any of these cases, there are three possibilities:

1. The police acted properly.
2. The police acted improperly because they used poor judgment.
3. The police acted improperly because police like to murder black people.

When the media and the activists insist that every single case like this is a racist cop out to murder black people, they obfuscate the legitimate discussion that a civilized society should be able to have about the merits of 1 versus 2. As an example not involving police, I think it's very possible that George Zimmerman was a gung-ho wannabe John McClane, but rather debating the merits of self-defense versus vigilante justice, all we heard from the media (and our president) is that Trayvon Martin was killed because he was black and wearing a hoodie.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

It's very possible that this cop was jittery, poorly trained, or not mentally suited for the job and handled the situation wrongly. He might certainly be guilty of manslaughter or even murder if the facts bear that out. My biggest objection is to the implication that, because the victim was black, that the cop shot him because he was black. In any of these cases, there are three possibilities:

1. The police acted properly.
2. The police acted improperly because they used poor judgment.
3. The police acted improperly because police like to murder black people.

When the media and the activists insist that every single case like this is a racist cop out to murder black people, they obfuscate the legitimate discussion that a civilized society should be able to have about the merits of 1 versus 2. As an example not involving police, I think it's very possible that George Zimmerman was a gung-ho wannabe John McClane, but rather debating the merits of self-defense versus vigilante justice, all we heard from the media (and our president) is that Trayvon Martin was killed because he was black and wearing a hoodie.

4. The police acted improperly due to stereotype threat related to black people.

 

[wizards8507]

4. The police acted improperly due to stereotype threat related to black people.

Yeah, maybe. But I don't find much use in arguing about subconscious biases since, by definition, they're impossible to prove.

 

[pkt77242]

It's very possible that this cop was jittery, poorly trained, or not mentally suited for the job and handled the situation wrongly. He might certainly be guilty of manslaughter or even murder if the facts bear that out. My biggest objection is to the implication that, because the victim was black, that the cop shot him because he was black. In any of these cases, there are three possibilities:

1. The police acted properly.
2. The police acted improperly because they used poor judgment.
3. The police acted improperly because police like to murder black people.

When the media and the activists insist that every single case like this is a racist cop out to murder black people, they obfuscate the legitimate discussion that a civilized society should be able to have about the merits of 1 versus 2. As an example not involving police, I think it's very possible that George Zimmerman was a gung-ho wannabe John McClane, but rather debating the merits of self-defense versus vigilante justice, all we heard from the media (and our president) is that Trayvon Martin was killed because he was black and wearing a hoodie.

I don't think of it as liking to murder black people, that to me is setting up a strawman.

Research shows that white people generally (not all) view black people as more aggressive, and thus I think it leads to them taking more aggressive action towards them, and leads to them as viewing a black persons movements as aggressive (even when they aren't) which leads to more situations like this (the one in Minnesota). I am not saying that the officers are KKK members but that this subconscious belief leads to more violent encounters.

Do I think that poor training plays a part in some of these episodes. Yes.
Are all cops or even many cops racist. No
Are all cops involved in these incidents racist. No
Doe many people have a subconscious belief that black people are more aggressive. Yes.
Does that belief lead to more violent encounters. Yes.

 

[NDgradstudent]

4. The police acted improperly due to stereotype threat related to black people.

"Stereotype threat" is a theory that says that the reason blacks do worse than other groups on tests is because they "fear" proving the stereotype that blacks do worse on tests true, thus making them unable to do well on the test. It has nothing to do with this. It also happens to be disproved and untrue, but that's an argument for another day.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't think of it as liking to murder black people, that to me is setting up a strawman.

It's not a strawman, it's the actual argument people are making. Spend 30 seconds on Twitter (or anywhere else on the internet).

Time: Mother of Minnesota Man Killed by Police: ‘He Was Black in the Wrong Place’

Mediaite: We're being hunted every day

The Huffington Post: Rev. Jesse Jackson Calls Alton Sterling Shooting ‘A Legal Lynching’

 

[IrishJayhawk]

"Stereotype threat" is a theory that says that the reason blacks do worse than other groups on tests is because they "fear" proving the stereotype that blacks do worse on tests true, thus making them unable to do well on the test. It has nothing to do with this. It also happens to be disproved and untrue, but that's an argument for another day.

That's true. I used the wrong term. Apologies.

Pkt's post more accurately summed up what I intended to say.

 

[pkt77242]

It's not a strawman, it's the actual argument people are making. Spend 30 seconds on Twitter (or anywhere else on the internet).

Time: Mother of Minnesota Man Killed by Police: ‘He Was Black in the Wrong Place’

Mediaite: We're being hunted every day

The Huffington Post: Rev. Jesse Jackson Calls Alton Sterling Shooting ‘A Legal Lynching’

To me it is a strawman because you seem to be bunching some legitimate things underneath it (or leaving them out completely) and seem to be dismissing a significant portion by doing that (or just leaving them out). I pointed that out in my last post (which you only quoted one small part from and ignored the rest).

There is most likely a racial biased involved that has been well documented in research, now that doesn't make the officers racist, but it does make it likely that some racial bias is involved.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

To me it is a strawman because you seem to be bunching some legitimate things underneath it (or leaving them out completely) and seem to be dismissing a significant portion by doing that (or just leaving them out). I pointed that out in my last post (which you only quoted one small part from and ignored the rest).

There is most likely a racial biased involved that has been well documented in research, now that doesn't make the officers racist, but it does make it likely that some racial bias is involved.

We should check with gradstudent. I'm sure it's a ruse.

 

[wizards8507]

To me it is a strawman because you seem to be bunching some legitimate things underneath it (or leaving them out completely) and seem to be dismissing a significant portion by doing that (or just leaving them out). I pointed that out in my last post (which you only quoted one small part from and ignored the rest).

I didn't address the rest of your post because it was nonsense. Research that shows that some sample of white people think black people are more aggressive has zero bearing in this case. Assigning racial motivations to police officers based on a study of "white people" generally is just as racist as saying "every black man is a deadbeat dad because the research shows that fatherlessness in the black community is higher than the national average."

There is most likely a racial biased involved that has been well documented in research, now that doesn't make the officers racist, but it does make it likely that some racial bias is involved.

It's not "racially biased" if it's true. I bet if you surveyed black people they'd respond that white people are generally not as good as black people at elite-level basketball. That's not racist, it's a factually accurate statement and all you have to do is look at the NBA.

Regardless, the thing that put the officers on edge is that they know they were confronting an armed man, not that they were confronting a black man.

 

[wizards8507]

Let's also remember that a police officer's day-to-day interactions are neighborhood-specific and not indicative of any national research, surveys, or demographics. For a police officer in Baton Rouge, most of his interactions are going to be with black people. That includes criminals, victims, friends, neighbors, and people you see at the grocery store.

 

[pkt77242]

I didn't address the rest of your post because it was nonsense. Research that shows that some sample of white people think black people are more aggressive has zero bearing in this case. Assigning racial motivations to police officers based on a study of "white people" generally is just as racist as saying "every black man is a deadbeat dad because the research shows that fatherlessness in the black community is higher than the national average."


It's not "racially biased" if it's true. I bet if you surveyed black people they'd respond that white people are generally not as good as black people at elite-level basketball. That's not racist, it's a factually accurate statement and all you have to do is look at the NBA.

Regardless, the thing that put the officers on edge is that they know they were confronting an armed man, not that they were confronting a black man.

LOL.

So you really think that racial bias doesn't play a role in any of the incidents out there? Again I am not talking outright racism, but the fact that white people generally view black people as more aggressive and violent. Seriously?

I agree that it can't be applied to every situation but if you seriously believe that it plays no part in many of these types of incidents, well we are done.


ETA: Studies show that black children as young as 5 years old are view this way. If that isn't bias I don't know what is.

 

[mango4]

I didn't address the rest of your post because it was nonsense. Research that shows that some sample of white people think black people are more aggressive has zero bearing in this case. Assigning racial motivations to police officers based on a study of "white people" generally is just as racist as saying "every black man is a deadbeat dad because the research shows that fatherlessness in the black community is higher than the national average."


It's not "racially biased" if it's true. I bet if you surveyed black people they'd respond that white people are generally not as good as black people at elite-level basketball. That's not racist, it's a factually accurate statement and all you have to do is look at the NBA.

Regardless, the thing that put the officers on edge is that they know they were confronting an armed man, not that they were confronting a black man.

Yet, they somehow managed not to shoot and kill this guy. Novel concept, they successfully disarmed him without killing him. Weird.