All Things Star Wars Thread (Spoilers)

[IrishLion]

Again, he uses it in reference to answering a question about speed. It is a distance.

Question: How fast can you get us to the train station.
Answer: I have made it there before in 10 miles.

Makes no sense.

I didn't see your explanation before I posted, my bad dog.

But there is an argument to be made that it does answer the question.

Is your ship fast?

Yeah, I made this difficult run in a super-short distance. Saved a bunch of time. No one else could do it.

 

[greyhammer90]

Again, he uses it in reference to answering a question about speed. It is a distance.

Question: How fast can you get us to the train station.
Answer: I have made it there before in 10 miles.

Makes no sense.

Not really though if the idea is getting closer to black hole cuts down on distance travelled in the run.

The line is "You've never heard of the Millenium Falcon?" "Should I have?" "It's the ship that made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs."

He's saying his engines are powerful enough (i.e. his ship is fast enough), to make the run as close as possible to the black holes without getting caught in their pull. That cuts down on distance traveled.

 

[Cackalacky]

A) maybe they use the term differently because of the physics of hyperspace
B) maybe Han talks out of his ass from time to time.

A). Possibly but if true its clumsily written by Lucas and not really clarified.
B). Entirely plausible Han would brag to two people he thinks might not know better using confusing language.

 

[greyhammer90]

And this not what I don't want to do. I don't enjoy debating minutae of an otherwise entertaining movie that my whole family enjoyed. That is fine if other people want to disect the director's intent or lack thereof in having the Millenium Falcon plow through sand dunes. I mean my love of the original trilogy was not based on the illogicalness of the death star destroying Alderaan and then hotfooting over to Yavin where it has to sync its orbit before destroying the Rebel base. Why not just come out of light speed further out like the did with Alderaan and blow Yavin II up?

I mean if that's the case then why even debate me on it? If your answer is just going to be "well I enjoyed it," that's fine with me, but it was silly to me and I think it was a weakness in the movie.

And this isn't about "plot holes" like the Death Star thing. Those exist in every movie, especially sci-fi. This is about, like you put, stretching my "suspension of disbelief" way beyond what was necessary to achieve the desired effect. You can have an exciting chase scene without, at the same time, temporarily breaking the underlying rules of physics in your world. It actively brought me out of my excitement of watching the movie because it was distractingly out of place for me.

 

[Domina Nostra]

A). Possibly but if true its clumsily written by Lucas and not really clarified.
B). Entirely plausible Han would brag to two people he thinks might not know better using confusing language.

Yeah, like when Rey is like "I bypassed the [compressor]!" and Han obviously has no clue what she's talking about, or when C3P0 says "I believe that the power coupling on the negative axis has been polarized. I’m afraid you’ll have to replace it" and HAN says, "Well, of course I’ll have to replace it," and then turns to Chewie and whispers to replace it because he had no clue.

I mean if that's the case then why even debate me on it? If your answer is just going to be "well I enjoyed it," that's fine with me, but it was silly to me and I think it was a weakness in the movie.

And this isn't about "plot holes" like the Death Star thing. Those exist in every movie, especially sci-fi. This is about, like you put, stretching my "suspension of disbelief" way beyond what was necessary to achieve the desired effect. You can have and exciting chase scene without, at the same time, temporarily breaking the underlying rules of physics in your world. It actively brought me out of my excitement of watching the movie because it was distractingly out of place for me.

And for the sake of arguement, I disagree with the Death Star being a big plot hole.

(1) Iran is not going to stop trying to get nukes just because the US and Israel have thwarted them in the past. Once they get them going, they are a qualitatively different threat. Same with the death star.

(2) If a huge power source needs an exhaust port to avoid overheating, you can't clog it up. Some imperial general proably said, "Isn't that a weak point," and the engineer replied, "well do you want a billion, trillion megawatt laser or not? The hole is only 2 meters!" They probably concluded that hundreds of tie-fighters and cannons would be an adequate defense. What they weren't counting on was the Force. The mission would have failed without Luke.

(3) The ROJ did not get destroyed in the same manner. It was attacked while it was being built and you could fly right into its core. They flew into it and shot a missile at its power source. It was shielded and well protected, but the Emperor rolled the dice and let them find it in order to lure the Rebellion in because he was--like Snoke--more interested in the force than the weapon. He even delayed the battle to emotionally manipulate Luke. Luke was his prize. (The silliness was in his best troops getting taken out by Ewoks, although I am sure that an R-rated Jedi could have made a jungle full of canibals defeating a legion of Storm Troopers more plausible).

 

[wizards8507]

I always thought parsec was a measure of distance not time. I've never understood the 12 parsecs thing.

It speaks to navigational ability, not speed. The Falcon took shortcuts and such that other ships couldn't have attempted.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

 

[Cackalacky]

I didn't see your explanation before I posted, my bad dog.

But there is an argument to be made that it does answer the question.

Is your ship fast?

Yeah, I made this difficult run in a super-short distance. Saved a bunch of time. No one else could do it.

Not really though if the idea is getting closer to black hole cuts down on distance travelled in the run.

The line is "You've never heard of the Millenium Falcon?" "Should I have?" "It's the ship that made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs."

He's saying his engines are powerful enough (i.e. his ship is fast enough), to make the run as close as possible to the black holes without getting caught in their pull. That cuts down on distance traveled.

But how long did it take him to do the 12 parsecs? Did he do it 2 light years? 2 hours?
If someone could do 18 parsecs in 1 light year but he did the 12 parsecs in 2 light years it makes no sense. he did not do it faster. There is missing information and/or it is clumsily written.

 

[ulukinatme]

I made the Kessel run in 11 parsecs.

 

[wizards8507]

Again, he uses it in reference to answering a question about speed. It is a distance.

Question: How fast can you get us to the train station.
Answer: I have made it there before in 10 miles.

Makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense if the train station is 12 miles away and you're bragging about your ability to get there by manipulating spacetime.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

 

[Cackalacky]

I mean if that's the case then why even debate me on it? If your answer is just going to be "well I enjoyed it," that's fine with me, but it was silly to me and I think it was a weakness in the movie.

And this isn't about "plot holes" like the Death Star thing. Those exist in every movie, especially sci-fi. This is about, like you put, stretching my "suspension of disbelief" way beyond what was necessary to achieve the desired effect. You can have an exciting chase scene without, at the same time, temporarily breaking the underlying rules of physics in your world. It actively brought me out of my excitement of watching the movie because it was distractingly out of place for me.

I don't want to "debate" you on it and I said as much yet here we are as I responded to your response, my fault. But I maintain that my child and my parents niether were concerned about what the Falcon was doing in the sand dunes or how Han came so close to the planet without hitting it. That's my point. For a vast majority of non-nerds, things like that matter little.

 

[gkIrish]

I made the Kessel run in 11 parsecs.

I'm using this on my online dating profile in hopes of picking up a Star Wars nerd.

 

[Cackalacky]

It makes perfect sense if the train station is 12 miles away and you're bragging about your ability to get there by manipulating spacetime.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

If you can manipulate space time via a wormhole distance becomes meaningless really. But in this case we are talking traveling faster than light not bending space time. Hyperspace does not equal opening a wormhole with an Einstein Rosen bridge.

The brag is that most people are not crazy enough to fly through the Maw and that most choose to safely fly around it. And again it still takes time to travel at even 0.5 plus lightspeed, assuming he traveled it at light speed. Maybe people who take the 18 parsec path can travel safer at higher speeds and the 12 parsec run can't be navigated at light speed at all?. Time elapses. You just don't open up a wormhole and pop out the other side instantaneously. SO yes, he claimed he made there over a shorter distance which has no bearing on how fast he made it there over that distance.

Ex. 3 people stand at the edge of a lake. One person can fly, one person swims, and one person sails.

All three make it to the other side, but each one arrive at different times because they traveled at different speeds. Not sure how more clear this can be except to accept that Lucas either made an error or clumsily wrote the line for its intent.

 

[greyhammer90]

I don't want to "debate" you on it and I said as much yet here we are as I responded to your response, my fault. But I maintain that my child and my parents niether were concerned about what the Falcon was doing in the sand dunes or how Han came so close to the planet without hitting it. That's my point. For a vast majority of us non-nerds, things like that matter little.

I'd respectfully disagree. It's like the Red Letter Media guys say: you might not have noticed it, but your brain did.

I'll make a longer post on this later, but I think it cheapens an action scene when it becomes obvious that your heros are immortal and that nothing in this scene is going to hurt them. It's the same reason people covered their eyes in Die Hard but rolled them in Live Free or Die Hard. It's like an amusement park. Nothing is scary or thrilling because it's all just visual noise like the first three rounds of a DBZ fight. It works on kids, but even if adults don't actively notice it, it cheapens the experience for them too.

 

[connor_in]

I don't want to "debate" you on it and I said as much yet here we are as I responded to your response, my fault. But I maintain that my child and my parents niether were concerned about what the Falcon was doing in the sand dunes or how Han came so close to the planet without hitting it. That's my point. For a vast majority of non-nerds, things like that matter little.

THINGS DON'T GO "BOOM" IN SPACE

 

[wizards8507]

Ex. 3 people stand at the edge of a lake. One person can fly, one person swims, and one person sails.

All three make it to the other side, but each one arrive at different times because they traveled at different speeds. Not sure how more clear this can be except to accept that Lucas either made an error or clumsily wrote the line for its intent.

Bad example. Better example. Two guys are on the edge of a forest trying to reach the other side. One guy is on a racing bike and has to travel a great distance around the forest. The other guy is on a mountain bike and rides straight through. The rate of speed is secondary to the fact that the one guy reached his destination much sooner by traveling a shorter distance.

 

[greyhammer90]

THINGS DON'T GO "BOOM" IN SPACE

And there aren't really space wizards. But this is all consistent in the physics of the universe they themselves have set up.

Things going boom in space? Cool.

Ships ramming things at high speeds and not blowing up only because it contains the main characters? Not cool.

 

[Cackalacky]

Bad example. Better example. Two guys are on the edge of a forest trying to reach the other side. One guy is on a racing bike and has to travel a great distance around the forest. The other guy is on a mountain bike and rides straight through. The rate of speed is secondary to the fact that the one guy reached his destination much sooner by traveling a shorter distance.

At what speed are each going? Becasue if the guy going around the forest can travel 25 mph and the guy going through the forest can only travel at 5 mph because of the trees.... it is not a forgone conclusion one would reach the other side faster than the other. Time and therefore speed matter, not just the distance.

Speed or better yet velocity is a function of distance per unit time. Distance, especially relativistic distances need time for relevance.

Further if we want to continue picking nits and misunderstaning basic light speed travel.... the Star Wars universe is incapable of handling the conudrum of how no one ages relative to everyone else with all this flitting around in hyperspace. Picking nits to this degree cheapens the story. I don't care for it.

 

[Domina Nostra]

At what speed are each going? Becasue if the guy going around the forest can travel 25 mph and the guy going through the forest can only travel at 5 mph because of the trees.... it is not a forgone conclusion one would reach the other side faster than the other. Time and therefore speed matter, not just the distance.

Speed or better yet velocity is a function of distance per unit time. Distance, especially relativistic distances need time for relevance.

Further if we want to continue picking nits and misunderstaning basic light speed travel.... the Star Wars universe is incapable of handling the conudrum of how no one ages relative to everyone else with all this flitting around in hyperspace. Picking nits to this degree cheapens the story. I don't care for it.

I'm with you: Lucas either made a mistake, or they thought it would be funny to have Han brag about something he didn't fully understand.

 

[Cackalacky]

And there aren't really space wizards. But this is all consistent in the physics of the universe they themselves have set up.

Things going boom in space? Cool.

Ships ramming things at high speeds and not blowing up only because it contains the main characters? Not cool.

I will just ask this and leave it for an answer because I did not catch it if it was specified by dialogue or other movie making practices... Do we know from the movie if the Falcon's shields were active and also are the capable of protecting the Falcon from impact damage due to poor piloting?

 

[greyhammer90]

At what speed are each going? Becasue if the guy going around the forest can travel 25 mph and the guy going through the forest can only travel at 5 mph because of the trees.... it is not a forgone conclusion one would reach the other side faster than the other. Time and therefore speed matter, not just the distance.

Speed or better yet velocity is a function of distance per unit time. Distance, especially relativistic distances need time for relevance..

The issue is that this example requires the guy going through the woods to go faster than the guy going around. That's the whole idea. The path can't be taken unless you're hauling ass. The fact that he was able to take it at all (and that no other ships can take it) shows that his ship is fast as hell.

 

[BeauBenken]

But how long did it take him to do the 12 parsecs? Did he do it 2 light years? 2 hours?
If someone could do 18 parsecs in 1 light year but he did the 12 parsecs in 2 light years it makes no sense. he did not do it faster. There is missing information and/or it is clumsily written.

A light year is a unit of distance as well. You pretty much just said someone did 500 yards in 2 miles.

Jesus, we are nerds.

 

[wizards8507]

At what speed are each going? Becasue if the guy going around the forest can travel 25 mph and the guy going through the forest can only travel at 5 mph because of the trees.... it is not a forgone conclusion one would reach the other side faster than the other. Time and therefore speed matter, not just the distance.

Speed or better yet velocity is a function of distance per unit time. Distance, especially relativistic distances need time for relevance.

Further if we want to continue picking nits and misunderstaning basic light speed travel.... the Star Wars universe is incapable of handling the conudrum of how no one ages relative to everyone else with all this flitting around in hyperspace. Picking nits to this degree cheapens the story. I don't care for it.

I understand the physics. I'm not arguing the physics. I'm arguing the writing. "12 parsecs" came from a smuggler's bragging, not the Falcon's technical manual.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

 

[Cackalacky]

A light year is a unit of distance as well. You pretty much just said someone did 500 yards in 2 miles.

Jesus, we are nerds.

I did that on purpose. I did just what Han did in the dialogue. I erroneously used distance as a unit of time. How many people caught that? You are a smart man for a scoundrel.

 

[BeauBenken]

I did that on purpose. I did just what Han did in the dialogue. I erroneously used distance as a unit of time. How many people caught that? You are a smart man for a scoundrel.

Except, I can definitely see/understand what Grey has expressed. He is talking about the ships ability to escape gravitational pull because it is so fast so he was able to shorten his distance travelled. He was moving both faster AND travelling a shorter distance. Obviously faster to anyone who knew a thing about smuggling...which Luke, Obi Wan, and the viewers clearly didn't because no one knew what the Kessel Run or the Millenium Falcon were.

He could just as likely be testing Luke and Obi Wan's knowledge to determine how much he could get away with charging considering that he does high ball them and is surprised when Obi Wan says he'll make the deal.

Either way, I can't believe we're really arguing on this. I don't find it as a glaring plot hole or anything since you could argue either one of the two explanations above.

 

[Cackalacky]

The issue is that this example requires the guy going through the woods to go faster than the guy going around.That's the whole idea. The path can't be taken unless you're hauling ass. The fact that he was able to take it at all (and that no other ships can take it) shows that his ship is fast as hell.

Assuming it is a longer distance around the forest for them to reach the same point in space and all other things being equal this would mean this person would be biking at a faster speed relative to the other biker going through the forest but they reached the same spot in space at the same time. That is not what we are arguing. What is being argued is that the biker through the forest made it to the same spot in space at an unknown rate. WIthout knowing this rate it is immposible to compare it to someone who traveled a further distance but still could have beat the biker through the forest if he were traveling at a faster rate. It does not imply that the biker through the forest was hauling ass. To make this statement valid requires knowledge of the speed of both bikers not just the distance.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

I personally think it is one of the misunderstood physics phenomenon like when people think light years are speeds adn not distances and the Lucas misunderstood or did not care.

I always took it as Han bullshitting Kenobi, and the he really didn't know the difference either.

 

[Cackalacky]

I always took it as Han bullshitting Kenobi, and the he really didn't know the difference either.

I find it hard to believe Han does not know navigation jargon and lingo hauling smuggled goods across the galaxy and under the noses of the Empire. I think if anything he could be bullshitting but again its not clear and just as easily could have been clumsy writing.

 

[gkIrish]

Are we allowed to post about what JJ Abrams said was originally supposed to happen in the movie? I feel like it might give away someone's importance, or lack thereof in the next movies so I want to clear it with you all first...

 

[wizards8507]

I always took it as Han bullshitting Kenobi, and the he really didn't know the difference either.

Episode 7 disproves that. Rey would have no knowledge of the negotiations with Obi-Wan and she knew the legend of the Falcon. Doing the Kessel run in 12 parsecs without-a-doubt means something real and impressive in-universe.

 

[BeauBenken]

ALSO, Han talks about out running starships in his next line. Perhaps the parsecs comment was just speaking on the ships capabilities, not speed. He verifies the ship's speed in the very next line.