All things Spartans

[Henges24]

. They should probably go hire James Franklin.

Agreed. Said this in the Franklin thread.

Would be a home run hire for Sparty and not a horrible landing spot for JF.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

A weirdo!

Don't really understand how Sparty's gotten so bad. Looking at their schedule they'll be lucky to win six games, which if they did would be an improvement on the last three years. They should probably go hire James Franklin.

The only reason they had that run of being a top 10 team under Dantonio in the 2010s is due to Rich Rod trying to turn scUM into a spread team overnight and basically ignoring his own backyard in recruiting. Sparty took full advantage. Coupled with the hiring ineptitude of the school picking Brady fricken Hoke after Rich Rod (still hilarious).

Once scUM hired Harbaugh the writing was on the wall. When has Sparty ever been good otherwise since the 60s? They have a couple flash in the pan years like any other program and would go right back to .500 or barely above. Long, long history of mediocrity.

Michigan State Spartans College Football History, Stats, Records | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Michigan State Spartans College Football History, Stats, Records, Polls, Bowls and More College Football Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

 

[stlnd01]

The only reason they had that run of being a top 10 team under Dantonio in the 2010s is due to Rich Rod trying to turn scUM into a spread team overnight and basically ignoring his own backyard in recruiting. Sparty took full advantage. Then, the hiring ineptitude of the school picking Brady fricken Hoke after Rich Rod (still hilarious).

Once scUM hired Harbaugh the writing was on the wall. When has Sparty ever been good otherwise since the 60s? They have a couple flash in the pan years like any other program and goright back to .500 or barely above. Long, long history of mediocrity.

Michigan State Spartans College Football History, Stats, Records | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Michigan State Spartans College Football History, Stats, Records, Polls, Bowls and More College Football Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

Maybe I'm still scarred from attending each of the five straight games we lost to them in the late 90s/early 2000s, but Sparty was always a tough out. They are 11-6 against us in the post-Holtz era, and a lot of those games were before D'Antonio - who should definitely get some credit for building them into what they were. Even when Michigan sucked, they always out-recruited Sparty. Sparty just won more games.

Now they just seem sad.

 

[SportsingHard]

The only reason they had that run of being a top 10 team under Dantonio in the 2010s is due to Rich Rod trying to turn scUM into a spread team overnight and basically ignoring his own backyard in recruiting. Sparty took full advantage. Then, the hiring ineptitude of the school picking Brady fricken Hoke after Rich Rod (still hilarious).

Once scUM hired Harbaugh the writing was on the wall. When has Sparty ever been good otherwise since the 60s? They have a couple flash in the pan years like any other program and goright back to .500 or barely above. Long, long history of mediocrity.

Michigan State Spartans College Football History, Stats, Records | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Michigan State Spartans College Football History, Stats, Records, Polls, Bowls and More College Football Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

Out of all of MSU's best players from that era, zero were in-state recruits, although OT Jack Conklin was a zero-star walk-on. In 2008, future Super Bowl MVP, Pro Bowl QB Nick Foles, from TX, had to transfer because he was completely buried on the depth chart, while at the same time, star QB recruit Keith Nichol transferred to MSU but had to move to WR. Point being, the program was in a strong place development-wise and didn't suddenly succeed because any individual came along, and Dantonio didn't succeed due to in-state recruiting.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Maybe I'm still scarred from attending each of the five straight games we lost to them in the late 90s/early 2000s, but Sparty was always a tough out. They are 11-6 against us in the post-Holtz era, and a lot of those games were before D'Antonio - who should definitely get some credit for building them into what they were. Even when Michigan sucked, they always out-recruited Sparty. Sparty just won more games.

Now they just seem sad.

Yeah, that was a Davie issue. He never beat Sparty.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Out of all of MSU's best players from that era, zero were in-state recruits, although OT Jack Conklin was a zero-star walk-on. In 2008, future Super Bowl MVP, Pro Bowl QB Nick Foles, from TX, had to transfer because he was completely buried on the depth chart, while at the same time, star QB recruit Keith Nichol transferred to MSU but had to move to WR. Point being, the program was in a strong place development-wise and didn't suddenly succeed because any individual came along, and Dantonio didn't succeed due to in-state recruiting.

Okay....? How many of ND's best players are from IN?

How many of Michigan's best players are from MI? Class of 2026 on 247 has 3 players from MI in the top 247. Class of 2025? 4. Doesn't mean there aren't quality players, plenty of 4 and 3 stars come from here.

It's basically common knowledge that majority of the best players come from the south. But programs are built on depth, not top end talent alone.

In 2009, in Rich Rod's second year, Michigan had 53 players in state. Michigan State had 58.

By 2011, when Hoke was hired, Michigan was down to 43 players in State. Michigan State? 63. It was discussed quite a bit by Mike Valenti and others for years.

 

[dublinirish]

MSU under Dantonio actually recruited heavily from Ohio and Illinois if my memory serves me

 

[stlnd01]

Yeah, that was a Davie issue. He never beat Sparty.

I know. I was there. Whatever the reason, they won the games and we didn't.

Point is, even when their final record was just OK, Sparty always had solid teams that could beat you. Now they just seem irrelevant. It's too bad. I think the Big Ten is more interesting when its middle class (Sparty, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska) is good. I guess Indiana and maybe Illinois are that right now, but the divide between the top and the rest is large.

 

[MacIrish75]

MSU under Dantonio actually recruited heavily from Ohio and Illinois if my memory serves me

MSU also had a number of good players from Florida in the early 00s. They plucked 3* and 4* guys and actually developed them.

 

[SportsingHard]

How many of ND's best players are from IN?

How many of Michigan's best players are from MI?

It's basically common knowledge that majority of the best players come from the south. Programs are built on depth, not top end talent alone.

In 2009, in Rich Rod's second year, Michigan had 53 players in state. Michigan State had 58.

By 2011, when Hoke was hired, Michigan was down to 43 players in State. Michigan State? 63. It was discussed quite a bit by Mike Valenti and others for years.

Didn't you just say MSU took full advantage of RichRod ignoring his own backyard in recruiting, and say that was the only reason (combined with the RichRod's offense) for MSU's success? I'm not putting words in your mouth, am I? If that were true, shouldn't we look at MSU's studs from the era and find a bunch of four and five star recruits from Michigan?

 

[ulukinatme]

Maybe I'm still scarred from attending each of the five straight games we lost to them in the late 90s/early 2000s, but Sparty was always a tough out. They are 11-6 against us in the post-Holtz era, and a lot of those games were before D'Antonio - who should definitely get some credit for building them into what they were. Even when Michigan sucked, they always out-recruited Sparty. Sparty just won more games.

Now they just seem sad.

Yeah, that was a Davie issue. He never beat Sparty.

Yup. 5 long years of Davie losses, first to Nick Saban, and then still losing to an awful Bobby Williams.

I've said it before, but after those 5 long years I remember exactly where I was when we finally beat them again in 2002. I was delivering pizza in college, watching the game in the store on a tiny ass 10" TV. When Dillingham hit Battle for the go ahead score I was screaming so loud the customers got freaked out!

This was one of those rare times the call on ABC was just about as good as Tony Roberts' was on the radio. They've got both in this clip:

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Didn't you just say MSU took full advantage of RichRod ignoring his own backyard in recruiting, and say that was the only reason (combined with the RichRod's offense) for MSU's success? I'm not putting words in your mouth, am I? If that were true, shouldn't we look at MSU's studs from the era and find a bunch of four and five star recruits from Michigan?

No you are not. But man you love to split hairs and just argue for arguments sake. Again, I'm focusing on depth. For some reason you think a team is only made up of it's best players, like football isn't the ultimate team sport. And Dantonio was widely known for being a solid developer of players, they never really recruited at an elite high level.

If you want to focus solely on the STUDS (4 and 5 stars as you put it) of classes, your argument is moot, regardless of whether or not they are from MI. Dantonio never out-recruited scUM until 2015, right before the program he built tanked That Freshman class was the beginning of the end for his tenure.

Class rankings (247)

2007: UM 11, MSU 53
2008: UM 11, MSU 42
2009: UM 10, MSU 22
2010: UM 17, MSU 22
2011: UM 30, MSU 32
2012: UM 6, MSU 37
2013: UM 4, MSU 37
2014: UM 20, MSU 26
2015: MSU 23, UM 37

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Admittedly, I don't really follow college football (just ND)
What happen to Mel Tucker? I must have missed something

 

[Pete]

Admittedly, I don't really follow college football (just ND)
What happen to Mel Tucker? I must have missed something

Got caught beating his meat while on a video call with a woman who is a rape victim who goes around talking to teams about sexual assault.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Got caught beating his meat while on a video call with a woman who is a rape victim who goes around talking to teams about sexual assault.

oh boy lol

 

[stlnd01]

Got caught beating his meat while on a video call with a woman who is a rape victim who goes around talking to teams about sexual assault.

Probably could've survived it if he hadn't gone 5-7 the year before while also being one of the highest-paid coaches in the sport. But that gave them away to void his buyout.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

I know. I was there. Whatever the reason, they won the games and we didn't.

Point is, even when their final record was just OK, Sparty always had solid teams that could beat you. Now they just seem irrelevant. It's too bad. I think the Big Ten is more interesting when its middle class (Sparty, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska) is good. I guess Indiana and maybe Illinois are that right now, but the divide between the top and the rest is large.

Haha all I'm saying is I think that was more "davie sucks" and less "Sparty is good" you know? But I definitely agree that they have a knack for playing "up" when they go against us.

 

[SportsingHard]

No you are not. But man you love to split hairs and just argue for arguments sake. Again, I'm focusing on depth. For some reason you think a team is only made up of it's best players, like football isn't the ultimate team sport. And Dantonio was widely known for being a solid developer of players, they never really recruited at an elite high level.

If you want to focus solely on the STUDS (4 and 5 stars as you put it) of classes, your argument is moot, regardless of whether or not they are from MI. Dantonio never out-recruited scUM until 2015, right before the program he built tanked That Freshman class was the beginning of the end for his tenure.

Class rankings (247)

2007: UM 11, MSU 53
2008: UM 11, MSU 42
2009: UM 10, MSU 22
2010: UM 17, MSU 22
2011: UM 30, MSU 32
2012: UM 6, MSU 37
2013: UM 4, MSU 37
2014: UM 20, MSU 26
2015: MSU 23, UM 37

This entire conversation is so strange to me. For some crazy reason, I actually imagined, after my initial response, you were going to come back with, "Huh. You're right. There's absolutely zero data to support my claim. I don't know where I got that idea. I could've made a better argument that Steph Curry can't shoot." But no, here we are.

You're right, though. Many of Dantonio's lesser players were kids from Michigan that no UM coach would've ever wanted.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

This entire conversation is so strange to me. For some crazy reason, I actually imagined, after my initial response, you were going to come back with, "Huh. You're right. There's absolutely zero data to support my claim. I don't know where I got that idea. I could've made a better argument that Steph Curry can't shoot." But no, here we are.

You're right, though. Many of Dantonio's lesser players were kids from Michigan that no UM coach would've ever wanted.

I gave you the data. you're just saying shit lol.

To what then do you attribute Sparty's brief rise under Dantonio coupled with scUM's decline in that same era? You think it was all just a major coincidence?

 

[SportsingHard]

I gave you the data. you're just saying shit lol.

To what then do you attribute Sparty's brief rise under Dantonio coupled with scUM's decline in that same era? You think it was all just a major coincidence?

Dantonio vs:
Carr 0-1
RichRod 3-0
Hoke 3-1
Harbaugh 2-3
(Michigan in total 8-5)
While finishing in the Top 6 three times and Top 15 six times

Why? Mainly because he had an eye for talent, he employed great defense schemes while keeping offense complementary, he was great at developing players, and he had a knack for building chemistry and motivation.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Dantonio vs:
Carr 0-1
RichRod 3-0
Hoke 3-1
Harbaugh 2-3
(Michigan in total 8-5)
While finishing in the Top 6 three times and Top 15 six times

Why? Mainly because he had an eye for talent, he employed great defense schemes while keeping offense complimentary, he was great at developing players, and he had a knack for building chemistry and motivation.

"Dantonio was good at developing players." No shit, water is wet. The Pope wears a hat.

This will be my last attempt, as you are exhausting and seem like a "last word wins the argument type of guy," anyway. No one is arguing that Dantonio wasn't a good developer of talent. Yes, he had great defenses. When you cook, you need ingredients to make a meal. Those players were built by rosters > 50% from his own state and a vast majority from the Midwest. I love how your initial list of best players during his era conveniently left off Leveon Bell and Kirk Cousins, lol.

I'll explain it like you're 8: Rodruiguez pivoted from a pro-style Carr offense to the spread. He prioritized speed over physicality, which was Carr's bread and butter. In that same period, Dantonio took the depth guys (3-4 stars in-state) and other guys from Illinios, Ohio, that scUM ignored. He built physical, deep rosters that scUM used to employ and yes, he maximized said talent really well. No one argued he didn't.

Guess what happened later in his tenure? He pivoted to a more national approach trying to capitalize on his success and what got him there. Program begins to slip.

But go ahead, you can have the last word.

How Mark Dantonio's recruiting has and hasn't changed in 10 years

Dantonio has shown consistency in his recruiting and also improving classes in recent years.

www.mlive.com

 

[SportsingHard]

This will be my last attempt, as you are exhausting and seem like a "last word wins the argument type of guy," anyway. No one is arguing that Dantonio wasn't a good developer of talent. He had great defenses. Those players were built by rosters > 50% from his own state. I love how your initial list of best players during his era conveniently left off Leveon Bell and Kirk Cousins, lol.

I'll explain it like you're 8: Rodruiguez pivoted from a pro-style Carr offense to the spread. He prioritized speed over physicality, which was Carr's bread and butter. In that same period, Dantonio took the depth guys (3-4 stars in-state) and other guys from Illinios, Ohio, that scUM ignored. He built a nice, physical, deep roster that scUM used to make their bread and butter, and yes, he maximized said talent really well. No one argued he didn't.

Guess what happened later in his career? He pivoted to a more national approach and low and behold, the program slipped a bit.

But go ahead, you can have the last word.

How Mark Dantonio's recruiting has and hasn't changed in 10 years

Dantonio has shown consistency in his recruiting and also improving classes in recent years.

www.mlive.com

View attachment 3060620

Okay, so your contention is (or was at outset), aside from another team's change in offensive scheme, the only reason for Dantonio's huge success throughout the 2010s was him taking full advantage of three-year coach RichRod ignoring the top in-state talent.

You've cited only three names of these elite Michigan high schoolers Dantonio stole away from a neglectful RichRod:
* Kirk Cousins, the #50 rated (composite) drop back passer (i.e. QB wihout running skills)
* Greg Jones, an unrated zero-star linebacker who's not from Michigan or from RichRod's era
* Le'Veon Bell, a RB who's not from Michigan and catapulted up the rankings to the #126 RB in the country after committing to MSU over the MAC

My bad omitting the #50 rated drop back passer from the conversation. I literally just reviewed MSU's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks from the era, and Cousins didn't qualify.

 

[dublinirish]

Smith is probably cooked now

 

[SportsingHard]

Smith is probably cooked now

Depends on how much Magic wants to donate. MSU has one good player (WR Marsh, who's been playing inured), and arguably two more respectable players. Horses are the central problem, but if Magic wants to pony up for a coaching change, so be it.

 

[dublinirish]

 

[dublinirish]

lol

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

lol

I mean I tend to agree. I feel bad for Sparty fans. I'm watching the game this past weekend, pulling for Sparty to beat those AA assholes, and he just looks so checked out. His DC was the only one who I saw any emotion out of most of that game.

Chiles is laughing on the sideline after failed 4th down conversions. Bonkers. I definitely thought it was a good fit when he came over from Oregon St but I don't think he really understood what he was getting into. B1G, East Lansing, their desperation to get back to relevance and beating scUM.

Wasn't an easy situation to walk into after the Mel Tucker debacle but still, Sparty deserves better.

 

[rtrn2glory]

Some of these middle of the line Big Ten Programs are starting to see that it'll be impossible to compete with the blue bloods in the conference now that NIL is involved. Ohio St and Oregon will always be at the top and then spots 3-6 will be a revolving door.

 

[SportsingHard]

Some of these middle of the line Big Ten Programs are starting to see that it'll be impossible to compete with the blue bloods in the conference now that NIL is involved. Ohio St and Oregon will always be at the top and then spots 3-6 will be a revolving door.

Most CFB observers are noticing the opposite. Oregon lost to the losingest program of all time, Penn State can't beat anybody, CFB is seeing parity like never before, and every program is one donor away from glory. MSU is just one of the more notable teams in the toilet at the moment, in part due to megadonor complications.

Literally, Indiana is an undefeated powrhouse right now, though they are not "middle of the line." They're as bad as it gets, historically.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Most CFB observers are noticing the opposite. Oregon lost to the losingest program of all time, Penn State can't beat anybody, CFB is seeing parity like never before, and every program is one donor away from glory. MSU is just one of the more notable teams in the toilet at the moment, in part due to megadonor complications.

Literally, Indiana is an undefeated powrhouse right now, though they are not "middle of the line." They're as bad as it gets, historically.

MSU definitely has some major potential in the NIL space IMO. Major alums like Gilbert, Gores, Magic Johnson, just to name a few. They seem like a sleeping giant to me once they get the right guy in there and get this thing going again. But it all starts with the HC.