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ulukinatme

ulukinatme

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I am surprised they decided to punt the ball. I think if I was in that situation I'd probably either take the snap and hold onto the ball as long as possible before tossing it up as time expires, or I give the ball to my shiftiest back and let him run back and forth backwards till time expires. I would never intentionally put the ball back in the hands of the opposing team with 10 seconds or less on the clock, especially snapping from the 50. Even if you have to toss the ball early and there's still time left on the clock, they're still out of FG range from there.
 
ACamp1900

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I would still punt, even knowing what I know now... the reason that play will live on is because the odds of that shit happening are small it's pretty close to impossible... teams win while punting in that situation almost every week.
 
ulukinatme

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ACamp1900 said:
I would still punt, even knowing what I know now... the reason that play will live on is because the odds of that shit happening are small it's pretty close to impossible... teams win while punting in that situation almost every week.
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True, but in that circumstance I still don't like giving the ball back to the other team. Look at BYU, they've won two back to back games this year on Hail Marys. Those are just as improbable to win a game, but they can and do happen. I'm pretty confidant that my QB can sit in the pocket for at least 3-4 seconds, then toss the ball as high as possible (Arm punt, if you will) to let time expire. The players would have plenty of time to get underneath the pass, even if the opposition manages to pick it off, they're not going anywhere in that pile. You wouldn't even need to keep the pass in-bounds necessarily. You could have a player in the vicinity and throw it out of bounds.
 
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A

ab2cmiller

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Didn't expect anyone to agree with Brady. It took a fluke of all flukes for them to score a TD in that situation. A lot higher chance that something goes wrong if you go for it on 4th down and don't run out the clock. They are in perfect range for a Hail Mary.
 
ACamp1900

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If a coach didn't punt there and lost they'd be under WAY more scrutiny than Harbaugh ever will for what actually happened...
 
ulukinatme

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ab2cmiller said:
Didn't expect anyone to agree with Brady. It took a fluke of all flukes for them to score a TD in that situation. A lot higher chance that something goes wrong if you go for it on 4th down and don't run out the clock. They are in perfect range for a Hail Mary.
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Hindsight is 20/20, but I feel much more comfortable snapping the ball to my QB and hope it isn't bobbled than to my punter, who isn't used to having a game on the line. If there were more than 10 seconds on the clock I certainly punt, but 10 seconds or less I think my offense can buy enough time either by running backwards or arm punting on a high pass to run out the clock. In either case the opposition never gets a chance to really touch the ball there.

[EDIT] I'm not actually agreeing with Hoke though. Hoke said run a play and let their strong defense close the game out for them. I'm saying run the clock out and don't even give the other team another chance.
 
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ulukinatme

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Saw this somewhere. I like the holding idea, never considered this:

There are all kinds of creative ways to design a play to burn time. Ten offensive players can surround the ballcarrier in a kind of muddle huddle, preventing him from being tackled or touched down. Or, after a few seconds of running around, the ball could be thrown high into the air, preferably toward the opponent's endzone where it could only result in an incompletion or a long interception. The simplest approach, though, is probably just to commit holding. If each offensive player other than the ballcarrier can effectively hold his defensive counterpart (i.e., tackle him), then only one defender will be left to tackle the ballcarrier. The ballcarrier then has a very good chance of running around and/or backward long enough to kill the remaining time on the clock. A game can't end on an (accepted) defensive penalty, but it can end on an offensive one, because a holding penalty results in a yardage penalty and a repeated down. So by accepting a holding penalty on a play when the game clock expires, the defense only forces a final, untimed down, which would be a kneeldown to end the game.
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ACamp1900

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The Ravens did the holding option in the Super Bowl against the 49ers if memory serves...
 
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koonja

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Yeah I think holding combined with an RB running around for a few seconds is the best approach in theory.
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We did this in high school. I was a sophomore, and we had 6 seconds left. They had what was a 'big time athlete' in our small, Wisconsin division of football, as a returner. We didn't want to punt to him, so our QB just took the ball and back pedaled as far back as necessary.

I'm guessing they don't do it because it can hurt your stats. But 10 seconds which is what I think UM had left, is actually a long time. I'd draw the line around 7 seconds.
 
ulukinatme

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koonja said:
We did this in high school. I was a sophomore, and we had 6 seconds left. They had what was a 'big time athlete' in our small, Wisconsin division of football, as a returner. We didn't want to punt to him, so our QB just took the ball and back pedaled as far back as necessary.

I'm guessing they don't do it because it can hurt your stats. But 10 seconds which is what I think UM had left, is actually a long time. I'd draw the line around 7 seconds.
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10 seconds is shorter than you think. Even with a strong pass rush a QB should have 3-4 seconds in a shotgun formation to take a few steps back and then heave the ball as high and far as he can. A punt will have a hang time of about 5 seconds, and has been as long as 8 seconds. There's no reason a high pass can't go for 5-6 seconds. That's all moot though if a team goes the holding approach and just runs backwards.
 
irishfan

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This would be like Weis questioning something BK did in 2010. What a troll move by Hoke.
 
ulukinatme

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I should correct myself. ab2cmiller said he didn't expect anyone to agree with Hoke. I'm not actually agreeing with Hoke. Hoke said you have to go with the strength of your team, in which case it was Michigan's defense. He said he would have run one more play and let his defense take the field. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying don't even let the other team have the ball back, run a play that eats the necessary remaining time up without actually giving the ball back. Michigan had plenty of field behind them to work with, and even if they did throw an incomplete pass with time remaining on the clock it would have been a long Hail Mary, too far for a field goal.
 
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irishfan

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The RB run around with holding thing sounds nice but in theory can be devastating. Especially with 10 seconds left. It would obviously be something sparingly practiced. What if MSU overloads one side of the ball? What if one of your guys whiffs early on a hold? What is the RB/QB supposed to do? What if this happens early in the play and they're not outside the tackle box? They can't just chuck the ball to no one or out of bounds. That's 15 yards of penalty yardage and MSU ball in easy FG range.
 
ulukinatme

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irishfan said:
The RB run around with holding thing sounds nice but in theory can be devastating. Especially with 10 seconds left. It would obviously be something sparingly practiced. What if MSU overloads one side of the ball? What if one of your guys whiffs early on a hold? What is the RB/QB supposed to do? What if this happens early in the play and they're not outside the tackle box? They can't just chuck the ball to no one or out of bounds. That's 15 yards of penalty yardage and MSU ball in easy FG range.
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If you're taking a snap in the shotgun and handing it off, the RB will already have a head start on the defense running backwards. They had over 50 yards to work with, even running in a straight line at top speed they're going to milk 5 seconds right there not to mention the few seconds between the snap and the handoff.

If MSU overloads one side of the ball, depending on how it's run, I'd just check to a toss to the other side. The beauty is your offense can do stuff like that at the line, your special teams are limited in that regard.

As far as the holding, they wouldn't have to be timid about it. We're not talking sneaky holding here, they could completely wrap their arms around their guy and get all kinds of jersey. They could even grab facemasks, because a hands to the face penalty would be no different. Even if one guy managed to get through, the RB is probably already gone by then, and a shifty back can easily avoid one guy in an open field behind him.

As far as passing the ball out of bounds, if you've got one guy in the vicinity and your QB doesn't throw it into the bleachers, you're fine. A ref isn't going to call it if the receiver is at the line and the ball lands on the sideline. Hell, the receiver could chase the ball out of bounds.
 
phork

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Coaching is the focus here though. Why do you have a spread punt on? Clearly punting is the right thing to do, but why a spread punt? Why was there a gunner all alone on the MSU sideline? I won't even ask why the punter wasn't coached to fall on the ball.

And then the disasterous 3 drives. 9 plays 16 yards, no first downs. One 1st down would have ended this game.
 
connor_in

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Just because: <a href="https://t.co/KXExQc7SPP">pic.twitter.com/KXExQc7SPP</a></p>— Harry Hiestand (@FakeBigHarry) <a href="https://twitter.com/FakeBigHarry/status/657195527197450240">October 22, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Irish Insanity

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connor_in said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Just because: <a href="https://t.co/KXExQc7SPP">pic.twitter.com/KXExQc7SPP</a></p>— Harry Hiestand (@FakeBigHarry) <a href="https://twitter.com/FakeBigHarry/status/657195527197450240">October 22, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Fake Big Harry is fuckin awesome.
 
ACamp1900

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I picture a random video of a punter getting a punt away with the tag of "Michigan should use this as a self help video."
 
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ulukinatme

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Advice for Michigan. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MichiganSucks?src=hash">#MichiganSucks</a> <a href="https://t.co/VAL5nTtRvD">pic.twitter.com/VAL5nTtRvD</a></p>— Knute Rockne (@Rocknes_Ghost) <a href="https://twitter.com/Rocknes_Ghost/status/657590069264449536">October 23, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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