Aliens Thread

Old Man Mike

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There are two approaches to this:

1). convergent evolution "laws" based upon the benefits/risk analysis faced by any large land-dwelling bioform evolving anywhere [due to the pressures on evolution forced by physics and mere geometry]: These require limitations upon things like numbers of appendages and bilateral symmetries and even placement of "heads" and sensory organs. Thus the convergent evolutionists have shown pretty conclusively [without any thought to "ET" by the way] that advanced large forms capable of technological civilization will have humanoid form --- at least until they artificially mess with it themselves. This Principle of Evolution then restricts the array of body plans and eliminates some of your options mentioned;

2). there are however some sophistications needed to be applied. Subtle Hollywood "adjustments" to humanoid form often give their game away and eliminate their creations to the realm of fantasy. The War of the Worlds creature appears to have an extra joint in the limbs for instance. As one can cover the three spatial dimensions with exactly the number we have, the extra structure merely gives that creature one more place where it could be damaged and killed without any positive return-on-investment. So Tom Cruise might face an alien, but one with one less arm joint.

3). Another subtlety is that while convergent evolution is restrictive on the general body plan level, there are areas where variability should accidentally occur. Therefore, aliens, while looking like "cousins" [distant] should not look like they're from New Jersey nor even France. [Sorry Coneheads]. Thus others of your choices are at least highly unlikely. By the way, Aliens will probably be relatively "clean-featured" as things like horns, large protruding teeth or tusks, and other excrescences are relatively useless to a thinking being, whose invented tools are much more useful, and again do not require biological expense nor provide another site for disease or death. Nature gets rid of useless or "not worth it" things.

4). An additional approach would be if one thought that the UFO CE3 reports gave any hints. The Betty and Barney Hill encounter was, when the face of the creature was baby-fied, the inspiration for Speilberg's CE3 movie. Dr. Hynek consulted with him on many things including this. [It's why Allen got to walk-on during the Landing Scene at the climax]. UFO entities are 99+% humanoid in form. There IS however a great deal of variety in things like height, build, skin color, hair or not, and facial sensor sizes. Hands may have four fingers just as much as five. Small variations on the required plan --- in fact just as the science says there should be.

Does it "prove" alien presence? No. But what it does is to indicate that a lot of things are "right" about what is being reported. Of course since the American public cares nothing about depth nor science, things like this remain unknown to any but specialists actually caring enough to get educated. [or now, a few IE readers].
 
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koonja

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Irish#1

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There are two approaches to this:

1). convergent evolution "laws" based upon the benefits/risk analysis faced by any large land-dwelling bioform evolving anywhere [due to the pressures on evolution forced by physics and mere geometry]: These require limitations upon things like numbers of appendages and bilateral symmetries and even placement of "heads" and sensory organs. Thus the convergent evolutionists have shown pretty conclusively [without any thought to "ET" by the way] that advanced large forms capable of technological civilization will have humanoid form --- at least until they artificially mess with it themselves. This Principle of Evolution then restricts the array of body plans and eliminates some of your options mentioned;

2). there are however some sophistications needed to be applied. Subtle Hollywood "adjustments" to humanoid form often give their game away and eliminate their creations to the realm of fantasy. The War of the Worlds creature appears to have an extra joint in the limbs for instance. As one can cover the three spatial dimensions with exactly the number we have, the extra structure merely gives that creature one more place where it could be damaged and killed without any positive return-on-investment. So Tom Cruise might face an alien, but one with one less arm joint.

3). Another subtlety is that while convergent evolution is restrictive on the general body plan level, there are areas where variability should accidentally occur. Therefore, aliens, while looking like "cousins" [distant] should not look like they're from New Jersey nor even France. [Sorry Coneheads]. Thus others of your choices are at least highly unlikely. By the way, Aliens will probably be relatively "clean-featured" as things like horns, large protruding teeth or tusks, and other excrescences are relatively useless to a thinking being, whose invented tools are much more useful, and again do not require biological expense nor provide another site for disease or death. Nature gets rid of useless or "not worth it" things.

4). An additional approach would be if one thought that the UFO CE3 reports gave any hints. The Betty and Barney Hill encounter was, when the face of the creature was baby-fied, the inspiration for Speilberg's CE3 movie. Dr. Hynek consulted with him on many things including this. [It's why Allen got to walk-on during the Landing Scene at the climax]. UFO entities are 99+% humanoid in form. There IS however a great deal of variety in things like height, build, skin color, hair or not, and facial sensor sizes. Hands may have four fingers just as much as five. Small variations on the required plan --- in fact just as the science says there should be.

Does it "prove" alien presence? No. But what it does is to indicate that a lot of things are "right" about what is being reported. Of course since the American public cares nothing about depth nor science, things like this remain unknown to any but specialists actually caring enough to get educated. [or now, a few IE readers].

Well stated.........So "The Day the Earth Stood Still" version (the original with Michael Remy blows the remake away) of the alien looking like a human may not be that far off, correct?
 

Old Man Mike

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It's possible but that close of a resemblance would be unlikely. Try "alienating" the face a bit in terms of proportions and mild tinkering with sensory organs sizes and amount of visible bone structure and one would get a spectrum of possible best guess types. To put it one way: Whorf would be less surprising than Spock, and the CE3 guys less surprising than either.
 

connor_in

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Hey OMM...
What is your take on aliens actually being future evolutionary version of us
...so time travel vs outer space...I have heard that one a few times
 

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I'll make another brief appearance and fade back out.

No one can simply answer these questions for you. There are shallow "intuitive" {BS} answers and there are educated guesses. The educated guesses are divided between those who seriously consider the UFO phenomenon and those who don't.

1). mental superiority: no one of any perspective suggests this. If we cruised in on them, even Technological superiority would be up for grabs. But if they cruise in on us, then they are clearly technologically superior. Interstellar spaceflight we are nowhere near doing. Interdimensional space warping even further from; Mental superiority involves many things. Technological superiority is easily determined.

2]. Why humanoid form: There is no need for humanoid form if the alien is not a land-dweller of significant size. However, a technologically advanced space-faring alien must have at some earlier time in its evolution been one. This is a vast scientific subject of which even Sagan had to be corrected. It involves convergent evolution, and the physics and geometry of forms as they efficiently and safely adapt to land-dwelling. This even applies to the structure of the face. I can't "teach this course". Read Simon Conway Morris;

3]. We don't assume aliens to have superior technology unless they have interstellar or interdimensional space travel technology and can get here. There would need to be a nearly uncountable number of advances over our level of tech to accomplish that, including some which are biological and medical;

4]. Molecular make-up: another textbook. You are going to have to follow this out yourself. It involves the universally common distribution of the elements as produced by the nuclear fusion processes of stars and particularly supernovas. It then proceeds to the understanding that simple molecules cannot be used as final actors in the processes of replication and SELF-MAINTENANCE [the big one] which constitute the phenomenon of Life. To attain the proper molecular complexity one needs atoms which will "string" together. There are only two: C and Si. Si polymerizes but is relatively inflexible and the polymers do not easily mutate except at very high temperatures. Calculations show that the binding/unbinding chemistry is exceedingly poor for anything as dynamic as Life needs to be. Within the Carbon array of compounds variety COULD exist, but this is a vast statistics game, and the fundamental molecules which build Earth life have been conclusively shown to be the ones which form most easily. The odds are that life will form from that which is there rather than that which is not; Read about "Cosmochemistry" and "Biogenesis" and "Protolife evolution" on the internet;

5]. obviously alien life can be insects or microorganisms. There is doubtless FAR more microorganism life in the galaxy than advanced multicellular life. The evolutionary advancement from single cells to multicellular organisms with specialized parts is probably the toughest thing in evolution. Some worlds will pull it off, some won't. However if we find anything as advanced as insects, it is an evolutionary blink of the eye to get to much more "brainy" and large things;

6]. discussion of general mental superiority is fruitless unless someone would try to define what that meant... sort of like the equally pointless discussion of "best athlete" elsewhere. Subjective answers such as "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" are showstoppers;

7]. With respect, the "just got caught up in a space oddity" scenario can't be taken as much of a grounds for discussion. This is particularly true if one takes the UFO phenomenon seriously. I have a few thousand incidents in my own pitifully small files. That's a whole lot of space accidents happening to intellectually inferior people.

Hi OMM, I'm interested in your suggestions for materials discussing some of the concepts you bring up in your posts. You mentioned Simon Conway Morris and I found:
The Deep Structure of Biology

and

The Crucible Creation

and

Fitness of the Cosmos for Life

He was just a contributing author not sole author of the last one. Do you have specific recommendations between these books?
 

Old Man Mike

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Veritate: the book that I talked with him about [because it so closely matched my relatively small publications on the same issue and it was a thrill to see a pro come to the same conclusions in a deeper way] was/is LIFE'S SOLUTION, 2003. The academic community may be pressuring him to get more conservative with some of his views by now, but I believe that this is where his heart is --- at least this is what he told me in a letter.

Connor: I don't go along with the "Aliens are ourselves from the future" theory even though I wrote the only paper in the UFO literature showing how one might try to defend that scientifically. The reason that I don't buy it is because in my Cosmos the future does not yet exist [or its firm existence would mean a deterministic universe violating the possibility of free will].

However, if one is willing to give up on the truth of free will [usually just because the person really thinks time-travel would be neat --- not a good enough reason for me] then one can base one's ideas on the evolutionary principle of neoteny. This states that occasionally evolutionary leaps occur by mutations wherein some "rate-governing gene" is altered in the embryo and a distinctly different "ratio" of some physical trait persists in the new individual.

To bring this home to the question at hand: humans are considered to be a neotenous form of lower apes --- this is based upon the fact that we tend to persist in a cranium-to-body size which is like ape embryonic ratios rather than ape adult ratios --- i.e. the rate-governing gene for such ratio was mutated. If one speculated on a further neotenous rate-changer now in humans, one would imagine a next "generation" appearance of a bigger headed, finer bone structured, proto-baby adult much like the creatures pictured in the CE3 movie, based upon several UFO contact cases.

Despite this, as I say, I don't buy it for other reasons, and also because the "common" alien description could easily be seen as having developed independently through the convergent evolutionary principles described by Morris.
 

Old Man Mike

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Clinton and several other Presidents have had interest in the UFO subject. Both Carter and Reagan thought that they had seen one. Clinton asked one of his advisors [John Podesta] to look into it for him. As usual, Podesta was stonewalled by the Pentagon and given the usual vague spiel.

LBJ probably was the president most actively involved. He had aided constituents several times with their inquiries while he was in Congress, and as President, he assigned his [actually Hubert Humphrey's] top Aerospace and NASA liaison to set up a temporary study group to research this [this was in 1968].

And of course it was Truman who tasked the CIA to get some answers in late July 1952 after the famous Washington DC flyovers which paralyzed military communication channels for 45 minutes due to citizen call-ins. This led ultimately to the policy of reducing belief in UFOs for national security reasons.
 

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I can't believe we're 129 posts in and one of these hasn't been posted yet

but-it-was-aliens.jpg

ALIENS2.gif
 

connor_in

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Julius Levinson: Hey, hey, hey, don't you tell him to shut up! You'd all be dead now if it weren't for my David! None of you did anything to prevent this!
Gen. Gray: There was nothing we could do! We were totally unprepared for...
Julius Levinson: Oh, don't give me umprepared! You knew about this for years! What with that spaceship you found in New Mexico! What was it called... Roswell, New Mexico! And that other place... uh... Area 51, Area 51! You knew then! And you did nothing!
President Thomas Whitmore: Mr. Levinson, contrary to what you may have read in the tabloids, there is no Area 51. There is no spaceship...
Albert Nimzicki: Uh... excuse me, Mr. President? That's not entirely accurate.
David Levinson: What, which part?
 

Old Man Mike

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No sense even guessing on this sort of thing until some real professionals get to them and get a range of dates for the construction. This has not been done yet. The one thing that you can count on is that such things are irrelevant to the issue of extraterrestrial intelligence just as the existence of Nazca Plain drawings and Pyramids are irrelevant. As my academic sideline was UFO research [to which I am very sympathetic and have written two books and edited a refereed journal], I make this statement with some background and care. The structures in Central Asia are intriguing archaeological mysteries at the moment, and should be seriously researched simply as they are without foolish prejudice hindering the researchers.
 

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Clare Coffey just published an article for The Outline titled "Belief in aliens could be America's next religion":

The aliens have landed.

Or at least, they’re about to. That’s a reasonable takeaway when a renowned Harvard astronomer publicly declares, without apparent fear of repercussion, that he believes an alien spaceship may be orbiting our planet.

Belief in the little green men (or tall, suspiciously Nordic, hyper-enlightened space brethren, depending on whose accounts you believe) has long been a one-way ticket to social disrepute. It belongs to the chainsmoking Nevada diner waitress, the virginal malcontent reading anti-Semitic lizard people websites in his mother’s basement, the aunt whose minivan is littered with pamphlets on lesser-known Marian apparitions and dire end-times prophecies, the bearded ’70s peace-and-love guru who later turned out to be a sex criminal. It is precisely three steps above joining the Black Hebrew Israelites.

But that seems to be changing. A new book by D.W. Pasulka — professor and chair of the department of philosophy and religion at the University of North Carolina Wilmington — American Cosmic: UFOs Religion, and Technology, focuses not on grassroots investigative societies or marginal cults, but on UFO believers in the halls of power.

Her narrative begins on a drive through the hills with pioneering computer scientist, venture capitalist, and ufologist Jacques Vallee. “Silicon Valley is full of secrets,” he tells her. It ends in the Vatican Secret Archives (alas, not because the Ultimate Clue lies steganographically hidden in a Templar codex).

Along the way, Pasulka meets “Tyler,” a biomedical technology mogul associated with the U.S. space program. Tyler is the most curious part of a curious book. Like most of the scientists, government researchers, and tech giants Pasulka quotes, Tyler’s real name remains a secret. But Pasulka has presumably done scholarly due diligence on his background, which would otherwise be hard to believe: Tyler has over 40 biotech patents to his name, many of which he believes were communicated to him by non-human intelligence. He works in a government program where, according to him, the kind of intricate security-clearance labyrinths one might find in an X-Files episode are the norm. “I don’t know who is responsible for putting me on these jobs. I think that somehow they are responsible for it. My own direct boss doesn’t know what I do. This is how the program works.”

Pasulka describes him breezing through airports without getting stopped by security: “We arrived at the airport, and Tyler sailed right past security, past first class, past economy class, and out the other side. He seemed to be literally beyond the law.” His name unlocks doors at the Vatican. In his official capacity as a researcher with the U.S. space program, one of his roles is merely to be at certain places at certain times — his superiors believe, apparently that his physical presence produces certain outcomes at experiments and rocket launches.

“Certain outcomes,” is frustrating circumlocution, but it embodies a tension fundamental to the book. Pasulka documents the end of a long cultural shift regarding UFOs, as it moves from a marginal fringe to a major belief system. Part of this shift is what Jacques Vallee calls the “Invisible College,” the network of credentialed, well-placed researchers seriously investigating the phenomenon. “The phenomenon” is Vallee’s carefully neutral term for the collection of commonly attested events and effects that make up “UFO” sightings. The term is useful for those trying to apply a scientific or scholarly framework, because it makes no claims about the origins. And in fact, Vallee does not believe that what people commonly identify as extraterrestrials actually come from space. Vallee is agnostic on their actual origins, but at various points has posited that they may be some sort of window into another dimension, or an illusion created for psychological manipulation.

The social credibility of the “invisible college” could potentially lend a valuable gravitas to belief in the phenomenon, if they were to come forward. But for now, stigma or the protocols of the member’s work enforce silence and anonymity. At a moment where the UFO is betwixt and between — almost, but not quite ready for uncontroversial discussion in polite society — Pasulka finds that circumlocution, pseudonymity, and privacy militate against the academic virtues of transparency and exact citation trails. This dynamic creates a frustrating opacity for the reader: it’s often unclear which of the wilder parts of Tyler’s story she has confirmed independently.

However, none of this secrecy necessarily suggests a conspiracy, unless it’s the same conspiracy that has dogged every system that moved from marginal belief to massive social leverage. To decent Romans, Christianity was a weird and possibly sorcerous cult practiced by rednecks and illiterates — until suddenly it was the force behind the empire. The Mormons were unwelcome freaks who believed in seer stones, indigenous American Israelites, and polygamy. Now they’re the face of clean-cut American success west of the Rockies.

Polling shows that 35 percent of Americans believe that extraterrestrials came to earth in the past, and 26 percent believe that aliens have visited in modern times. This in itself does not necessarily make a new religion. Americans also believe, to varying degrees, in ghosts, Atlantis, and telekinesis. But according to Pasulka, UFO beliefs display other classic indicators of religion: sacred sites, sacred revelations, and testimony by credible witnesses to miraculous events.

At one point, Pasulka travels to an unnamed site in New Mexico. Accompanying her are Tyler and Pasulka’s own colleague “James,” an astrophysicist at a prestigious university, and not only a UFO believer, but a repeat contactee. (He finds the phenomenon unwelcome, and describes it as something that in earlier times would be called “demonic.”) The unidentified mesa is allegedly the site of a spacecraft crash many years ago. Tyler has obtained special permission for the two academics to visit and look for artifacts, on the condition that they travel blindfolded.

The sense of sci-fi melodrama does not decrease from there. The researchers do in fact find an artifact, a piece of material that shuts down an airport luggage scanner on the way home.

“The material looked like crumpled tinfoil that was also a type of fabric. It was clumped with dirt and debris.”

Pasulka cannot shake the suspicion that it was planted for her to find, that the whole thing was a setup. Eventually though, a team of scientists determines that the object is highly anomalous, unlike any known material on earth.

“In religious studies, this would be a miracle, either a miraculous object or a miraculous event, such as a healing. Of course, this is not how Tyler and James would speak about the site, but it is my assessment. The sites in New Mexico function as the sacred sites of a new religion… They are the places of a hierophany, where non-human beings descended to earth and left us a ‘donation’ as James, chuckling, once called it.”

A hierophany is a revelation of a sacred being, and Pasulka is not the first to make the connection between the descent of glowing saucers and glowing angels. Erich von Dänikan’s Chariot of The Gods gave rise to the cheerfully mendacious Ancient Aliens, which re-interprets almost every major ancient civilization’s religious and cultural legacy as the work of visiting extraterrestrials.

Despite the undeniable goofiness of (and racist assumptions involved in) Giorgio A. Tsoukalos’ project, the “biblical UFO hermeneutic” has become popular. Adherents point to the Bible’s more bizarre manifestations of divine presence as indications that the Abrahamic religions are built on misidentified extraterrestrial encounters. For instance, Ezekiel’s wheel, traditionally believed to be revelation of the ineffable and awful Lord of hosts, is better understood as a spaceship.

To the degree that alien religion is parasitic on established scriptures and traditions, it resembles what sociologist Daniel O’Keefe calls a magical protest sect. These sects arise when dominant organized religion feels too restrictive or lifeless. They expropriate aspects of the religions they protest, and repurpose them in ways that allow participants to directly manipulate the sacred.

Thus, there’s no need to submit to restrictive ethical codes or interact with desiccated or corrupt ecclesial bureaucracies. You can “call down” UFOs from the skies yourself, as one of Pasulka’s interviewees does. Or, like Tyler, you can develop a personal protocol that will allow you to “interface” with a higher intelligence and creative source.

“I basically believe, and there is evidence for this, that our DNA is a receptor and a transmitter,” he claims. “It works at a certain frequency — The same frequency, in fact, that we use to communicate with satellites in deep space. Humans are a type of satellite, in fact. So, in order to receive the signals and to transmit the signals, we have to tune our physical bodies and DNA. Because of this, I make sure I sleep really well… I rarely drink alcohol, as it interferes with my sleep, and I never drink coffee. Coffee really messes up the signal.”

That Tyler’s ascetic protocol is bio-technical does not make it any less magical. Arthur C. Clarke’s famous dictum, that all sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, cuts the other way as well: Magic can be understood as the human capacity for technology applied to the sacred.

Pasulka’s book makes the argument that the religion of the UFO is also the religion of technology, and it is a convincing one. In part, this refers to technology’s role in disseminating and popularizing the UFO encounter. Pop culture hits like Star Wars, 2001: A Space Odyssey and The X-Files have provided a narrative structure that patterns individual experiences of inexplicable phenomena, the way that a Catholic’s mystical experiences might be patterned and interpreted through the lens of Church Doctrine.

If media experiences of the UFO account were limited to a few blockbusters, it’s hard to see how it could have the effects Pasulka claims. But the advent of micro-media platforms like YouTube and the rise of faux-documentarian investigations in the style of the History channel have compounded the Hollywood effect by orders of magnitude. Any scammer with a camera or hustler with an eye for the weird can simulate strange lights and speeding objects, or cut together unsourced footage glossed with their own theories. And they do, in spades, to the endless dismay of serious investigators.

All religions depend in some way on technology: The relationship between the Protestant reformation and the Gutenberg printing press is a historical cliché. American Cosmic argues that for an alien religion to succeed, the screen is not merely an incidental component. It is both the organizing structure that defines the content of the religion, and the point of contact between believers and their object of worship: It is the synagogue, the madrasa, the tabernacle, the church.

There is, however, another way that the UFO religion may be a religion of technology. More than one person has pointed out that alien accounts have some odd similarities with older fairy folklore: the strange lights, the miniature people, the domestic disturbances, the appearances and disappearances. But the most relevant point may be that fairies were often described as mimicking the appearance and behavior of the landed aristocracy. Tall, beautiful, and amoral, they spent their time hunting, dancing, and fighting. They did not take it kindly if you trespassed on their land.

These days, the nearest most of us peasants get to wealth and power is using the technology that makes billionaires of the people who own it. Accounts of immensely powerful visitors with technology beyond the comprehension of ordinary humanity, whose inventions do strange things to the mind, who collect human tissue for their own purposes: These could certainly describe exterrestrial visitors. But you need go no farther than Palo Alto to find an equally plausible referent. If alien beliefs are an emerging religion, they may be an attempt to propitiate and manage anxiety around the strange new gods venture capital has created. The fact that Pasulka’s book heavily features the tech elite as prime examples of alien belief does not detract from this hypothesis; it would be surprising if Silicon Valley ever found something more worthy of worship than itself.

Whether ufology will fully morph into what we currently recognize as religion is still an open question. For one thing, the completion of the process would detract from its current appeal. Pasulka points out that the now-famous dictum “I want to believe” is a credo for agnostics: Belief is never foreclosed, but always postponed. Alien belief allows for a crowded, living cosmos filled with the wild supernatural, but the exact shape of that supernatural always remains slightly out of reach. It provides a language of longing for something — an angelic visitor, the complete fulfillment of our own technological potential, revelation about the nature of the universe — which remains elusive.

Still, there are signs that alien belief is poised to become one of the world’s ethical religions. Alien beliefs often implicate the world in wickedness and call for repentance — many accounts of alien contacts include calls for an end to war and an increase in peaceful human cooperation. A recent New York Times op-ed used an alien invasion as a model for thinking about climate change.

Perhaps in a hundred years or so a new sect will emerge in a desertified wasteland, one devoted to the strange signs in the skies that once warned us of catastrophe. Perhaps, with fear and hope, its adherents will look to the skies for a promised return. Their worship will conclude with a reiteration of the sacred promise: The aliens are coming. Maranatha.
 

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The content here borders on 100% error or fuzzball thinking. ... at least on the UFO side. America IS screwed up spiritually --- that much is true.
 

Irish YJ

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The content here borders on 100% error or fuzzball thinking. ... at least on the UFO side. America IS screwed up spiritually --- that much is true.

what has always been very interesting to me is the potential impact to religion, if aliens do indeed show themselves. not the potential of alien worship, just the impact to existing religion.

for instance, what if a long term advanced civilization comes down, and says, "yup, we've been visiting your sector since before humans were present on good ole Earth". or... "we've been among you for several thousands of years and here's what y'all are getting wrong"...
 

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what has always been very interesting to me is the potential impact to religion, if aliens do indeed show themselves. not the potential of alien worship, just the impact to existing religion.

for instance, what if a long term advanced civilization comes down, and says, "yup, we've been visiting your sector since before humans were present on good ole Earth". or... "we've been among you for several thousands of years and here's what y'all are getting wrong"...

What would that impact about religion? Do we think the aliens would somehow know everything about the beginning of the universe (or the infinite universe)?

There are likely many habitable planets in the universe but what are the chances that they stay that way for millions of years to allow the evolutionary process to play out? And what's the likelihood that life would follow a similar phylogenetic path that resulted in cognition, as we understand it?

And then what's the likelihood said planet would stabilize and the cognitive species would develop long enough to not destroy itself and be within striking distance of earth? Presumably using travel technology we haven't reached yet.

I believe your implication is that a species that managed to move past the above mile markers, would achieve some incredible scientific breakthroughs, and would somehow ultimately find a unifying theory that gave us answers to deep philosophical problems?

I don't buy it and it's not for a lack of trying.
 

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Not going to go into all that (it's a two semester college course) but on the lesser topic of impact on religion: that's been looked into many times since the later 50s, and nearly all religions have no problems with ET being out there, coming here, having differing religious views etc. The only group of Earth religions expressing hostility to this scenario consistently has been the conservative Protestant religions, some of the (disgusting) leaders of which (ex. Pat Robertson) have declared that all people publicly admitting to have seen a UFO close encounter should be taken into the public square and literally stoned to death as a Satan worshipper.
 

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What would that impact about religion? Do we think the aliens would somehow know everything about the beginning of the universe (or the infinite universe)?

There are likely many habitable planets in the universe but what are the chances that they stay that way for millions of years to allow the evolutionary process to play out? And what's the likelihood that life would follow a similar phylogenetic path that resulted in cognition, as we understand it?

And then what's the likelihood said planet would stabilize and the cognitive species would develop long enough to not destroy itself and be within striking distance of earth? Presumably using travel technology we haven't reached yet.

I believe your implication is that a species that managed to move past the above mile markers, would achieve some incredible scientific breakthroughs, and would somehow ultimately find a unifying theory that gave us answers to deep philosophical problems?

I don't buy it and it's not for a lack of trying.

My thinking is two fold. If the universe is as big as we think (or infinite), the possibilities are endless out there. And 2, our "thinking" on the topic is limited by our own short term history and mental capacity.

It's just naive as hell to think 1) we're the only ones out there, 2) we're the most advanced out there, 3) all potential races out there would be near as flawed (war, ego, materialistic) as us, and 4) we can even comprehend in the first place what might be out there.

Space travel may be as simple as hoping in a car and driving down the block for others. I just think it's silly to assume we're special, our planet is special, or our ability to comprehend is special. We could be extremely primitive on so many levels to others.
 

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My thinking is two fold. If the universe is as big as we think (or infinite), the possibilities are endless out there. And 2, our "thinking" on the topic is limited by our own short term history and mental capacity.

It's just naive as hell to think 1) we're the only ones out there, 2) we're the most advanced out there, 3) all potential races out there would be near as flawed (war, ego, materialistic) as us, and 4) we can even comprehend in the first place what might be out there.

Space travel may be as simple as hoping in a car and driving down the block for others. I just think it's silly to assume we're special, our planet is special, or our ability to comprehend is special. We could be extremely primitive on so many levels to others.

So you haven't given this much thought? I don't believe we're necessarily 1. the only ones "out there", 2. we're the most advanced out there, 3. um, this is a lot to unpack, 4. ditto but we're trying

Space travel isn't that simple. We are pretty damn special because as far as we can tell, no planets within our viewing distance have any signs of advanced life. That's not to say there isn't an advanced species waiting just out of our sightline.

Listen to some physicists discuss this topic (I really like Brian Cox), and then some biologists/chemists (OMM). We are special. Life is special. It took the most random of occurrences and incredibly long stretches of relative stability on our planet to result in where we are. It doesn't mean we're the only ones, or that there aren't 19 more advanced species monitoring this very discussion (for dubious reasons, no doubt).

But what would any of that do to disrupt religion?
 

Irish YJ

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So you haven't given this much thought? I don't believe we're necessarily 1. the only ones "out there", 2. we're the most advanced out there, 3. um, this is a lot to unpack, 4. ditto but we're trying

Space travel isn't that simple. We are pretty damn special because as far as we can tell, no planets within our viewing distance have any signs of advanced life. That's not to say there isn't an advanced species waiting just out of our sightline.

Listen to some physicists discuss this topic (I really like Brian Cox), and then some biologists/chemists (OMM). We are special. Life is special. It took the most random of occurrences and incredibly long stretches of relative stability on our planet to result in where we are. It doesn't mean we're the only ones, or that there aren't 19 more advanced species monitoring this very discussion (for dubious reasons, no doubt).

But what would any of that do to disrupt religion?

the whole "we're special" or "life is special" is a human construct. space travel is not simple to us. doesn't mean it's not simple to others. sailing the ocean was once not possible. we couldn't fly till the last century. the earth used to be flat, and the sun used to revolve around the earth. point being, we've advanced a bunch in the last couple hundred years, and we're advancing exponentially. can you imagine a society that has a million years or more on us. or one that has not been hindered by many of our flaws and limitations? our understanding of physics, biology, etc could be less than remedial to others. scientist a hundred years ago would think Cox's knowledge is god like. Cox might be considered a mental midget in another hundred years.

anyway, you get where I'm going... lol. as to the impact on religion, what if a race with a million or more years on us arrives, and provides data that confirms creationism (at least from an Earth perspective) without a doubt is just a story. we still have folks that deny evolution. heck, we've had two trials in the last 50 years fighting "evolution". And then the pivot to intelligent design... in short, a lot of folks would lose their sheet just over that.

and what if that advanced race was capable of creating life themselves (not through traditional biological means), and have been doing so for a million years. would we call them "soulless", or pivot to another intelligent design type argument. there are so many of these types of conflicts that could occur with an encounter.

i've got a neighbor heavy into ufos. not a close bud or anything, but he's "known" in the SE within the community. wouldn't be shocked if OMM knew of him. also have a bud in FL (physicist/mathematician) who is also heavy into the whole scene. i've heard some really whacked out musings. but after thinking about a lot of them, not so whacked out. it's simply more about being comfortable with the thought that "we might not be as special as we think".
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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the whole "we're special" or "life is special" is a human construct. space travel is not simple to us. doesn't mean it's not simple to others. sailing the ocean was once not possible. we couldn't fly till the last century. the earth used to be flat, and the sun used to revolve around the earth. point being, we've advanced a bunch in the last couple hundred years, and we're advancing exponentially. can you imagine a society that has a million years or more on us. or one that has not been hindered by many of our flaws and limitations? our understanding of physics, biology, etc could be less than remedial to others. scientist a hundred years ago would think Cox's knowledge is god like. Cox might be considered a mental midget in another hundred years.

anyway, you get where I'm going... lol. as to the impact on religion, what if a race with a million or more years on us arrives, and provides data that confirms creationism (at least from an Earth perspective) without a doubt is just a story. we still have folks that deny evolution. heck, we've had two trials in the last 50 years fighting "evolution". And then the pivot to intelligent design... in short, a lot of folks would lose their sheet just over that.

and what if that advanced race was capable of creating life themselves (not through traditional biological means), and have been doing so for a million years. would we call them "soulless", or pivot to another intelligent design type argument. there are so many of these types of conflicts that could occur with an encounter.

i've got a neighbor heavy into ufos. not a close bud or anything, but he's "known" in the SE within the community. wouldn't be shocked if OMM knew of him. also have a bud in FL (physicist/mathematician) who is also heavy into the whole scene. i've heard some really whacked out musings. but after thinking about a lot of them, not so whacked out. it's simply more about being comfortable with the thought that "we might not be as special as we think".

I've thought through all of your stances and come back to what I posted above. The things you posted above are not difficult thoughts, and I don't think they are the most accurate.

If everything we think and do is inherent to "being human" then it's all a "human construct". It's a term I dislike greatly because it serves almost no purpose. I'm perfectly comfortable with being the only self-aware species or one of millions, I just don't think it's terribly likely.

I've also read a lot of whacked out thoughts, like Octopi are from an alien planet.
 
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Irish YJ

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I've thought through all of your stances and come back to what I posted above. The things you posted above are not difficult thoughts, and I don't think they are the most accurate.

If everything we think and do is inherent to "being human" then it's all a "human construct". It's a term I dislike greatly because it serves almost no purpose. I'm perfectly comfortable with being the only self-aware species or one of millions, I just don't think it's terribly likely.

I've also read a lot of whacked out thoughts, like Octopi are from an alien planet.

my X wife was definitely from somewhere else. most of DC...
 

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My thinking is two fold. If the universe is as big as we think (or infinite), the possibilities are endless out there. And 2, our "thinking" on the topic is limited by our own short term history and mental capacity.

It's just naive as hell to think 1) we're the only ones out there, 2) we're the most advanced out there, 3) all potential races out there would be near as flawed (war, ego, materialistic) as us, and 4) we can even comprehend in the first place what might be out there.

Space travel may be as simple as hoping in a car and driving down the block for others. I just think it's silly to assume we're special, our planet is special, or our ability to comprehend is special. We could be extremely primitive on so many levels to others.

It isn't naive to think we are alone if you believe that life must be started by an intelligent designer, no matter how hospitable to life conditions are.

There had to be someone/something to plant the grass seed if you will.
 
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