2016 Presidential Horse Race

[woolybug25]

Nope. Two words: Glass-Steagall.

By repealing it, he effectively destroyed any "checks and balances" that might have contained the damage.

Repealing Glass-Steagall in 1999 lead to a 200% jump in subprime mortgage originations and it never looked back.

Pair that with the idiotic Community Reinvestment Act, And the fact that he exempted credit-default swapping from regulation, and it's pretty clear who holds the biggest bag in this debacle

But to add, GWB doubled down on the idiocy.

 

[MJ12666]

When W left office we were hemorrhaging hundreds of thousands of jobs a month and the economy was on the verge of collapse. Even modest growth is better than the bottom falling out because of tax cuts to the rich and costly wars waged for dubious reasons. The last time you guys had the keys to the car you nearly blew the engine and the passenger side was riddled with dents and scratches. You have not shown that you can be trusted with the keys again.

If I may paraphrase an esteemed poster: Defect>Redirect>Blame Bush

Dems never take responsibility for their failures. 50 years and $20 trillion dollars spent on the war on poverty started by a Dem and we are $20 trillion in debt. Further, today the government spends 16 times more, adjusting for inflation, on means-tested welfare or anti-poverty programs than it did when the War on Poverty started and there has been basically no change in the poverty rate.

War on Poverty After 50 Years: Conditions of the Poor in America

 

[RDU Irish]

Nope. Two words: Glass-Steagall.

By repealing it, he effectively destroyed any "checks and balances" that might have contained the damage.

Repealing Glass-Steagall in 1999 lead to a 200% jump in subprime mortgage originations and it never looked back.

Pair that with the idiotic Community Reinvestment Act, And the fact that he exempted credit-default swapping from regulation, and it's pretty clear who holds the biggest bag in this debacle

I second that motion.

 

[ACamp1900]

If I may paraphrase an esteemed poster: Defect>Redirect>Blame Bush

Dems never take responsibility for their failures. 50 years and $20 trillion dollars spent on the war on poverty started by a Dem and we are $20 trillion in debt. Further, today the government spends 16 times more, adjusting for inflation, on means-tested welfare or anti-poverty programs than it did when the War on Poverty started and there has been basically no change in the poverty rate.

War on Poverty After 50 Years: Conditions of the Poor in America

Nope.

Bush.

Only Bush.


Nancy Pelosi and her peps only exist if times are good.

Don't you know the rules?

 

[phgreek]

First, voters aren't children. Second, your argument sounds a lot like the complains that the GOP has about the Democrats -- we know what's best for you, and you cannot be trusted to make the right decision. A prominent feature of our government is Democracy, government by the consent of the governed. If you cannot find consent, your ideas are toast. Simple. People have stopped buying what you are selling -- at least enough people to ensure that your candidates' messages do not move them to the voting booths.

I mean...I don't have to work real hard here.. the history of the narrative, "sale", Ram job, implementation, and now death spiral of Obama care is REAL stuff that makes what you just wrote seem kinda Hillaryish.

Also, what you wrote defies what we know of human nature. You make it sound like pandering doesn't work....has nothing to do with being "children".

In response to the rest of your post...

I don't deny the candidate and the republican platform are flawed...although you have some humdinger attitudes and hypocrisy going on in the DNC once exclusively assigned to the RNC.

I know you hate Republicans, but I think it far fetched to claim the Moral high ground simply because your failures to help people are packaged to appear more compassionate. I just wonder when folks you've left behind will call in all the markers for the promises.

 

[GoIrish41]

Billy had a lot to do with that. I know you probably don't believe that. But the mortgage crisis (and 2008 collapse) can be attributed to him and his opening the floodgates to subprime lending practices.

I don't disagree about Bill being a involved in all of this. Never voted for him and don't want to vote for Hillary either (except Trump gives me no other viable option ... MUST STOP TRUMP!) But, let's be honest here. Presidents get the blame during their presidency, whether it is fair or not. And while Bill's policies played a role, lets not forget the really expensive wars W began, and the really expensive tax cuts he put into place, and the really expensive prescription plan he pushed through Congress without paying for any of it. Also lets not take our eye off the fact that pulling back regulation ensured nobody was watching the store as banks packaged those high-risk loans enabled by Slick Willy together as can't miss financial products that started the world's most economically irresponsible game of "hot potato" in the nation's history, resulting in the collapse or near collapse of some of the nation's largest financial institutions. If we're being honest, policies of both parties led us to the trouble in 08. If one side is blamed for all the failings, they are naturally going to counter with the failings of the other side. That just adds to the toxic mix of soul crushing partisanship that is dragging this nation down.

 

[phgreek]

If I may paraphrase an esteemed poster: Defect>Redirect>Blame Bush

Dems never take responsibility for their failures. 50 years and $20 trillion dollars spent on the war on poverty started by a Dem and we are $20 trillion in debt. Further, today the government spends 16 times more, adjusting for inflation, on means-tested welfare or anti-poverty programs than it did when the War on Poverty started and there has been basically no change in the poverty rate.

War on Poverty After 50 Years: Conditions of the Poor in America

Yea...thats what I mean... it is billed as caring, compassion, "we got your back". Keep telling the poor that...keep doing what we are doing...but some day I suspect after generations of failure to help them loose the chains of poverty, folks might have to explain. I hope so.

 

[IrishBroker]

I don't disagree about Bill being a involved in all of this. Never voted for him and don't want to vote for Hillary either (except Trump gives me no other viable option ... MUST STOP TRUMP!) But, let's be honest here. Presidents get the blame during their presidency, whether it is fair or not. And while Bill's policies played a role, lets not forget the really expensive wars W began, and the really expensive tax cuts he put into place, and the really expensive prescription plan he pushed through Congress without paying for any of it. Also lets not take our eye off the fact that pulling back regulation ensured nobody was watching the store as banks packaged those high-risk loans enabled by Slick Willy to be packaged together as can't miss financial products that started the world's most economically irresponsible game of "hot potato" in the nation's history, resulting in the collapse or near collapse of some of the nation's largest financial industries. If we're being honest, policies of both parties led us to the trouble in 08. If one side is blamed for all the failings, they are naturally going to counter with the failings of the other side. That just adds to the toxic mix of soul crushing partisanship that is dragging this nation down.

I understand all that...but I was just talking about the 2008 financial crisis and what actually led to it.

And to be honest, other than people who actually do the research, everyone blames Bush for the financial crisis. Yet Bush was merely the wake created by the boat Billy was driving.

Sure, he didn't do us any favors, but Billy's legislation is arguably the most devastating in economic history (next to the new deal). I'm not kidding. That one piece of legislation (repealing GS) led to trillions and trillions of dollars in bad loans floating around. And put millions of people out of their homes.

 

[tussin]

Your party isn't selling vegetables ... they are selling crack if they expect people to believe GOP policies work after 30 years of proof that the only thing that trickles down is despair and increased poverty for the working class and the poor. And yet, just this week, your great outsider candidate of the people is pitching the same tired disproven BS that the GOP has pitched for decades.

Inspire us with new ideas that help people instead of blaming those same people for the unbalanced conditions that have been foisted upon them via the GOP's responsible policies.

To me, "voter crack" sounds a lot like "free college!", "higher minimum wage!", "women's rights!", "more entitlements!". No one wants the hard truth that the only way to improve lives in the middle and lower class is job growth through smart economic policy.

You can say the GOP has failed the middle class, but what has Obama done to propel the middle class? Obama's economic policies have had little effectiveness -- we've had a bull market since 2010 and the guy couldn't deliver 3% GDP growth once! Obama's presidency came at an incredibly convenient time in history -- a huge market downturn that can be wrongly blamed on the GOP, followed by a 6-year period of market-based economic stability.

I'd also love to hear all of the "inspiring" new ideas that the Dems are proposing. It's the same old shitty ra-ra message of "change" and "hope" that Obama spewed. Hillary has done a great time of campaigning for third term Obama while simultaneously portraying the political system as failed and broken.

All that being said -- no chance in hell that I will vote for Donald Trump. You are correct in that the GOP is burning to the ground.

 

[RDU Irish]

Love all you reactionaries! You guys are great ACamp, Bish, etc. But when it comes to politics ya'll need a colonic.

Really.

I am not a Democrat. But I rarely vote Republican. Except at a local level. And I expect I will vote less Republican because of the way they gerrymandered Ohio Congressional Districts; That was taking advantage of the sick and dying.

Here are some Republican topics for you to discuss in this thread. I am not a Hillary fan, but the implication that she has people murdered is complete scum-mockery! Unless you have proof. I don't mean see it in print from a media source.

• MN Radio Host states Unsubstantiated allegations by conservative hosts, blow public's perception of all media's credibility.
• Mitch McConnell's decision to hold up any hearings for the replacement of Alito's from the night of Sam's death in April have been discussed among Republican strategists as one of the stupidest strategic blunders in the history of American politics.
• Colorado's largest single voting block is now independent, and seems to have made more gains from the erosion of disenchanted former Republicans.
• Many Trump primary voters are first timers, and camouflage flaccid support from life-long Republican voters.
• Swing group. Polls show among educated white male voters, Trump support is falling steadily and Clinton support is growing at a nearly equal pace.
• Swing states, aren't. States that have been considered swing states in any of the last five elections are not looking as if they will be swing states this time. The Democrats have extended single digit leads from the post convention bump, to commanding single digit leads in states that traditionally have been too close to call.

Respectfully, I would like to see any of these points discussed in this thread, instead of the hackneyed, droolmongering, semi-intelligible clichéd chestnuts, that no longer hold any weight with the changing political landscape.

I heard a lifelong Republican, someone that I truly respect say it best. He said that he almost felt disenfranchised because he wouldn't sport moronic truisms, doubt the science he based his life and career on, for a bunch of nonsense that had been dispelled decades ago. I told him that I understood what he was saying. He then shrugged and said it took some Tea Party idiots, but it was nice that we could have a better understanding of each other.

1) can't understand what your point is
2) Mitch McConnell is a perfect example of why we need term limits. He was completely off base in his remarks and I have despised him for some time. Plus he looks like a turtle to me. Him and Harry Reid can both take long walks off short piers.
3) Colorado seems to be recognizing the stupidity of the war on drugs - no room in R party for legalize drug movement. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative is what most mean by "independent" IMO - neither party seems to acknowledge any difference between morality and legality
4) Who cares if it is their first time- they still get a vote and if the "establishment" can't draw in any new blood isn't that kind of point #1 in the call to turn over the apple cart? Besides - Dems gush about getting out young and first time voters but the minute a Rs get a few it is because they are stupid. Guess what - THEY ARE PRETTY STUPID ON BOTH SIDES
5) Swing group? Trump is getting trounced but I do respect that he actually reached out to poor and minority voters pointing out how they have been sold out and taken for granted by DNC for decades.
6) Swing states - If it ain't close it is irrelevant - did you get a PhD in statistics to figure that out? The point is - we all know which states will be the fulcrum if the race tightens. Trump seems to think he can get MI, WI, PA in his corner due to rust belt economics and change the tide a bit - but that is completely irrelevant if the race does not tighten up.

All that being said - can you acknowledge Trump has been outspent $100M to $0 in ad spend so far? Maybe that is part of the reason he is down. Momentum in politics is so fleeting - why blow any money right now? You can say that is a flawed strategy (which I would agree with) but to act like it is not part of the current arse whooping statistics is a bit closed minded.

As for the Tea Party - it was hijacked by the uber social conservatives (like the ones who have aneurisms anytime the word abortion comes up) when its roots are in fiscal conservatism. GTFO of my life and stop wasting my hard earned tax dollars should sum that up - instead we are debating gay marriage, bathrooms and abortion.

 

[GoIrish41]

I understand all that...but I was just talking about the 2008 financial crisis and what actually led to it.

And to be honest, other than people who actually do the research, everyone blames Bush for the financial crisis. Yet Bush was merely the wake created by the boat Billy was driving.

Sure, he didn't do us any favors, but Billy's legislation is arguably the most devastating in economic history (next to the new deal). I'm not kidding. That one piece of legislation (repealing GS) led to trillions and trillions of dollars in bad loans floating around. And put millions of people out of their homes.

And of course, I can make the argument that Bush's wars and tax cuts -- neither of which he paid for -- are what doomed the economy. We can go on like this forever -- in fact its seems like we have in this and the politics thread that was started ahead of the 12 election). None of it matters. Unless any of us have a time machine, there's nothing we can do about any of that now. Who has solutions to right the ship? Trump? I can't take anybody who thinks that is a good idea seriously. Hillary is talking about reinstating Glass-Steagall. I doubt Trump even knows what that is.

 

[GoIrish41]

To me, "voter crack" sounds a lot like "free college!", "higher minimum wage!", "women's rights!", "more entitlements!". No one wants the hard truth that the only way to improve lives in the middle and lower class is job growth through smart economic policy.

You can say the GOP has failed the middle class, but what has Obama done to propel the middle class? Obama's economic policies have had little effectiveness -- we've had a bull market since 2010 and the guy couldn't deliver 3% GDP growth once! Obama's presidency came at an incredibly convenient time in history -- a huge market downturn that can be wrongly blamed on the GOP, followed by a 6-year period of market-based economic stability.

I'd also love to hear all of the "inspiring" new ideas that the Dems are proposing. It's the same old shitty ra-ra message of "change" and "hope" that Obama spewed. Hillary has done a great time of campaigning for third term Obama while simultaneously portraying the political system as failed and broken.

All that being said -- no chance in hell that I will vote for Donald Trump. You are correct in that the GOP is burning to the ground.

Which brings us back to the original point ... if nobody wants it, the message is failing. That's Democracy. Government at the consent of the governed!

 

[kmoose]

lets not forget the really expensive wars W began, and the really expensive tax cuts he put into place, and the really expensive prescription plan he pushed through Congress

Well, which is it? Do Republicans never help people who are less fortunate, or did Bush, a Republican, help out a ton of senior citizens on fixed incomes?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

As for the Tea Party - it was hijacked by the uber social conservatives (like the ones who have aneurisms anytime the word abortion comes up) when its roots are in fiscal conservatism. GTFO of my life and stop wasting my hard earned tax dollars should sum that up - instead we are debating gay marriage, bathrooms and abortion.

You keep making this argument, even though it's not remotely true. Those issues have been in the news recently because the Obama administration and SCOTUS have been pushing an agenda that poses grave threats to the religious liberty, freedom of association and integrity of existing Christian institutions. They're pushing it because they know their Christian opponents are easy targets, since the GOP is completely unwilling to protect them. That's not the mark of a party in the clutches of Jerry Falwell's "Moral Majority" any longer.

Regardless, the future of the GOP is going to be a lot less Christian and socially conservative, so your wish should be granted in short order. I hope you like what comes next.

 

[IrishBroker]

And of course, I can make the argument that Bush's wars and tax cuts -- neither of which he paid for -- are what doomed the economy. We can go on like this forever -- in fact its seems like we have in this and the politics thread that was started ahead of the 12 election). None of it matters. Unless any of us have a time machine, there's nothing we can do about any of that now. Who has solutions to right the ship? Trump? I can't take anybody who thinks that is a good idea seriously. Hillary is talking about reinstating Glass-Steagall. I doubt Trump even knows what that is.

Economic being the keyword. I work in the financial sector. So that's what I really focus on. I should've elaborated more, sorry.

I'm new. LOL

And if you think for one min that Hillary is going to legislate against her own self interests(her of 10 million a year in income), I got a bridge to sell you.

 

[tussin]

Which brings us back to the original point ... if nobody wants it, the message is failing. That's Democracy. Government at the consent of the governed!

You are right -- the message is failing. The GOP has done a truly awful job communicating core beliefs while demonstrating the ineffectiveness of Democratic economic and social policy.

 

[IrishBroker]

You keep making this argument, even though it's not remotely true. Those issues have been in the news recently because the Obama administration and SCOTUS have been pushing an agenda that poses grave threats to the religious liberty, freedom of association and integrity of existing Christian institutions. They're pushing it because they know their Christian opponents are easy targets, since the GOP is completely unwilling to protect them. That's not the mark of a party in the clutches of Jerry Falwell's "Moral Majority" any longer.

Regardless, the future of the GOP is going to be a lot less Christian and socially conservative, so your wish should be granted in short order. I hope you like what comes next.

I truly believe that libertarians are going to be the norm in the future. Socially liberal, but actually understand economics, unlike the left.

 

[gkIrish]

I truly believe that libertarians are going to be the norm in the future. Socially liberal, but actually understand economics, unlike the left.

I hope you are right, although I hope abortion is the one social issue that the party does not change it's stance on.

 

[tussin]

I truly believe that libertarians are going to be the norm in the future. Socially liberal, but actually understand economics, unlike the left.

Socially liberal is fine with me as long as the GOP doesn't abandon it's fight against abortion. That would be a true tragedy.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I truly believe that libertarians are going to be the norm in the future. Socially liberal, but actually understand economics, unlike the left.

America isn't going to have any sort of future if we continue worshiping at the altar of the Autonomous Individual. Libertarianism undermines the sort of virtue required to maintain a free republic. From a TAC article published today:

According to Levin, the great conceptual barrier to reforming and modernizing American politics is baby boomer nostalgia for the 20th-century Golden Age of their memories. He writes:

Democrats talk about public policy as though it were always 1965 and the model of the Great Society welfare state will answer our every concern. And Republicans talk as though it were always 1981 and a repetition of the Reagan Revolution is the cure for what ails us. It is hardly surprising that the public finds the resulting political debates frustrating.

What neither side can see is that they expect the impossible. Generally speaking, liberals want maximal individual liberty in personal life, especially on matters related to sexual expression, but demand more state involvement in the economy for the sake of equality. Conservatives desire maximal economic freedom but lament the social chaos and dysfunction—in particular, the collapse of the family among the poor and working classes—that afflict American society. The uncomfortable truth is that what each side loathes is the shadow side of what it loves.

 

[IrishBroker]

I hope you are right, although I hope abortion is the one social issue that the party does not change it's stance on.

Agreed...and there is a fair amount of libertarians who are pro-life.

Which is where I fall.

 

[RDU Irish]

I hope you are right, although I hope abortion is the one social issue that the party does not change it's stance on.

Sure keep the lightning rod that keeps people from rallying around your flag. The hard line does not work and, IMO, has resulted in losses. Work the middle ground, provide incentives and accept that LESS is better and NONE is Pollyanna.

Being right isn't always enough folks.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Sure keep the lightning rod that keeps people from rallying around your flag. The hard line does not work and, IMO, has resulted in losses. Work the middle ground, provide incentives and accept that LESS is better and NONE is Pollyanna.

Being right isn't always enough folks.

Do you think there was middle ground on ante-bellum slavery or Nazi genocide?

 

[IrishBroker]

America isn't going to have any sort of future if we continue worshiping at the altar of the Autonomous Individual. Libertarianism undermines the sort of virtue required to maintain a free republic. From a TAC article published today:

For the record, liberals only believe in personal liberty when it comes to marriage and abortion.

Other than that, they like the government deciding how free you can be (speech, education, food, money)

Which is why I can never vote democratic.

And I disagree with libertarianism being a detriment to a free republic. People should decide for themselves and have as little government as possible. The reason we are in the mess we are in, is because of government involvement and how they choose who and what gets the breaks through legislation. That's repubs or dems. Big government is direct opposite of a free republic.

Maybe we don't go full libertarian, mainly because most of America can't fathom not having government deciding things for them, but having another candidate and party presence may force the issue with legislators to start respecting individual liberty

 

[connor_in]

Dr. Drew "Gravely Concerned" About Hillary Clinton's Health » Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Yes I know it's InfoWars but it is reporting on Dr. Drew interview with KABC and I didn't think he was much of a staunch R or Trumpster, is he?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

And I disagree with libertarianism being a detriment to a free republic. People should decide for themselves and have as little government as possible. The reason we are in the mess we are in, is because of government involvement and how they choose who and what gets the breaks through legislation. That's repubs or dems. Big government is direct opposite of a free republic.

Big government is a symptom, not the disease. It increases to fill the vacuum left by withering civil institutions. Liberalism, in both its leftist and rightist forms, elevates the autonomous individual over all else, thereby ensuring social atomization.

Most modern Americans aren't fit for self-governance, which is why no Republican administration since WWII has ever actually succeeded in decreasing the size of government. If you'd like to downsize the government, your focus needs to be on creating a more virtuous citizenry.

Without disciplined citizens willing to sacrifice for their neighbors and future generations, the minimally invasive "night watchman" government that libertarians dream of is impossible.

 

[gkIrish]

Sure keep the lightning rod that keeps people from rallying around your flag. The hard line does not work and, IMO, has resulted in losses. Work the middle ground, provide incentives and accept that LESS is better and NONE is Pollyanna.

Being right isn't always enough folks.

Only 29% of Americans (as of a May 2016 Gallup Poll) support abortion being legal in all circumstances.

Also, Abortion poll finds 81% Americans, 66% pro-choice advocates support restrictions on procedure - Washington Times

Six in 10 Americans - including 61 percent of women - say abortion is “morally wrong.”

 

[RDU Irish]

Do you think there was middle ground on ante-bellum slavery or Nazi genocide?

See, this is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

See, this is why we can't have nice things.

I'm serious! It's the same damned thing. I challenge you to make a meaningful coherent distinction between slavery, the Holocaust, and abortion.

 

[gkIrish]

I'm serious! It's the same damned thing. I challenge you to make a meaningful coherent distinction between slavery, the Holocaust, and abortion.

It's not a human life