2016 Presidential Horse Race

[phgreek]

Should we give the same test to everyone who lives here already? I suspect the "values" that we might uncover would be all over the map. In multiple states last year, legislatures attempted to or succeeded in allowing its citizens to discriminate against LGBT people or religious grounds. Women make less than men across the board on average in this country. Will they be told to find another place to settle if they agree with the concept of equal pay for women, something that a majority of people in this country view as a women's' right? Speaking of women's rights, abortion is legal in this country. If they say it should not be should they be tossed out on their ears? This is an insanely impractical policy proposal that would require a set of "right" answers on a test that huge portions of the population would vehemently disagree with. It would require the government to choose sides on any number of contentious issues packaged as "Western values." I want to hear precisely the questions he would have immigrants asked, and precisely what he would expect the right answers to be. Until then, I think this, like most of his proposals is less than thoughtful and stupid. Who decides if they have the correct answers that would make them acceptable? ... Trump himself? No thanks.

What are your thoughts on faith?
Acceptable: I do not believe in god, I am a Christian, I am A Muslim. I am X. I believe people should be free to worship as they see fit.
Not acceptable: I am X, and mine is the only true "god", and all others shall be below mine, and all things in life should follow my God. I have a right to convert others to my faith through force.

What are your thoughts on Homosexuality?
Acceptable: I'm gay, I'm Straight and don't care, My faith defines it as a sin, however I understand and accept the concept of civil rights, and harbor no animosity toward gay people while I seek my own salvation.
not acceptable: My faith defines it as sin, and I am insulted by their presence.

What are your thoughts on a woman's role?
Acceptable: In my culture women raise the children. I will seek to find a woman who believes as I do; Women should do what they want to do. Women are no different than men.
Not acceptable: In my culture women are property, and that is what I know. My faith defines a woman's role, and all must adhere.

What are your thoughts on abortion?
Acceptable: Thats fine; My faith prevents me from having one; My faith teaches it is a sin, but I understand and respect the law governing this country.
Not acceptable: My faith teaches it is sin, and all who perform the act should also be killed.

Yes...my examples could be picked apart, and are WAAAY overly simplistic...and I suspect folks would get pretty good at follow-up questions, where mine are one dimensional. I guess my point is, I can clearly see where even the stuff we, citizens of the US, disagree on...we (mostly) defer to a higher power than ourselves...the Law. If a perspective Immigrant cannot demonstrate knowledge of, and acknowledge and abide by that concept ...he/she gone.

Aaaand even in cases where we have people who couldn't get through that test already living here...why the fuck would we INVITE MORE!

 

[connor_in]

Let me just save everyone the trouble of continuing to read this thread:

Everyone else, just copy and paste per your political leaning - Definitely don't ever introspect, use reason or challenge your bias.

[Pro Hillary]
Yeah but Trump (did/said) (insert unrelated event to deflect), and that was so much worse than what Hillary did. In fact, I don't think what she (did/said) was really that bad. It's really just (insert poorly rationalized/justified reasoning).

[Pro Trump]
Yeah but Hillary (did/said) (insert unrelated event to deflect), and that was so much worse than what Trump did. In fact, I don't think what he (did/said) was really that bad. It's really just (insert poorly rationalized/justified reasoning).

Here's the thing tho...

There are a number of people who are NOT pro-Trump but are VERY anti-Hillary

AND

There are a number of people who are NOT pro-Hillary but are VERY anti-Trump


...in other words, they don't really have anyone in the race they are FOR just someone they are more ANTI towards

 

[ACamp1900]

There are a number of people who are NOT pro-Trump but are VERY anti-Hillary

There are people out there who aren't in this grouping??? geez...

Well I say we have a lil get-to-know party with all these peps... get them all together at once to, you know, share...

I'll serve the Kool Aid.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

There are people out there who aren't in this grouping??? geez...

Well I say we have a lil get-to-know party with all these peps... get them all together at once to, you know, share...

I'll serve the Kool Aid.

So you're interested in planning a new Party?

 

[ACamp1900]

So you're interested in planning a new Party?

We can call it the Eugene Party...

 

[Bubbles]

Here's the thing tho...

There are a number of people who are NOT pro-Trump but are VERY anti-Hillary

AND

There are a number of people who are NOT pro-Hillary but are VERY anti-Trump


...in other words, they don't really have anyone in the race they are FOR just someone they are more ANTI towards

From what I have seen, that seems like a convenient way to pretend to walk the middle ground and pander to the crowd. The egg salad is rancid and the tuna smells funny...so sack the 'F' up and order the tofurky even though you've never had it before. At least its fresh and you know whats in it....or just skip lunch and try again tomorrow.

 

[dshans]

We can call it the Eugene Party...

As in "Clean Gene" Eugene McCarthy?

I'm in.

 

[woolybug25]

Low brow - maybe; but that doesn't take away from the quality of the argument.

Testing ideological commitment to western values like women’s rights, gay rights, and religious pluralism is a good idea.

Nothing outrageous about that. If those coming here share our values (or at least aren't extremists) as the left indicates, then they shouldn't have an issue with this policy.

Again, Trump trumps Hillary on national security.

Low brow, maybe???? Definitely low brow, no question about it. A respected journalist doesn't use phrasing like:

The test will apply to all immigrants, yet its obvious target is Muslims, who, as we know, get a bit bomby in the presence of gays, a bit rapey in the presence of women who wear skirts shorter than their ankles and generally a bit hostile and violent around anyone who doesn’t have their bum in the air five times a day.

and

Murder 50 fags and injure 50 more and you’re a tragic victim, probably reacting to islamophobia, whose dad will be invited to stand behind Hillary Clinton at a rally.

Call me uptight or whatever, but I don't want to read shit like that. The message is lost to anybody with any sense of civility. If someone spoke like that in front of my family, I would be asking them to leave. So excuse me if I find it appalling that people actually respect this guy. I get that he is a gay conservative, so he thinks that gives him some right to be an obnoxious anti establishment figure. But it doesn't make him any less of an asshole and certainly not a respected journalist that earns public trust. He's a sensationalist that portrays himself as an intellectual, which he's the farthest thing from.

Secondly, Trump has zero national experience, political science background or even a complex understanding of world politics. He's a brazen sociopath that has repeatedly shown an affinity for the use of nuclear weapons. Not to mention, a clear friend to the Russian government. I have no idea why someone would ever think that he is capable of being responsible for our country's national security. Unless you like war, then I suppose he's your guy.

 

[tussin]

This entire discussion is irrelevant. The election is shaping up to be the biggest landslide in a generation. IMO, Trump is nothing more than a sideshow at this point.

Hopefully the GOP turns the page and starts the rebuild ASAP.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

From what I have seen, that seems like a convenient way to pretend to walk the middle ground and pander to the crowd. The egg salad is rancid and the tuna smells funny...so sack the 'F' up and order the tofurky even though you've never had it before. At least its fresh and you know whats in it....or just skip lunch and try again tomorrow.

When both candidates on offer call to mind divine chastisement, fasting is probably the best option.

 

[potownhero]

Should we give the same test to everyone who lives here already? I suspect the "values" that we might uncover would be all over the map. In multiple states last year, legislatures attempted to or succeeded in allowing its citizens to discriminate against LGBT people or religious grounds. Women make less than men across the board on average in this country. Will they be told to find another place to settle if they agree with the concept of equal pay for women, something that a majority of people in this country view as a women's' right? Speaking of women's rights, abortion is legal in this country. If they say it should not be should they be tossed out on their ears? This is an insanely impractical policy proposal that would require a set of "right" answers on a test that huge portions of the population would vehemently disagree with. It would require the government to choose sides on any number of contentious issues packaged as "Western values." I want to hear precisely the questions he would have immigrants asked, and precisely what he would expect the right answers to be. Until then, I think this, like most of his proposals is less than thoughtful and stupid. Who decides if they have the correct answers that would make them acceptable? ... Trump himself? No thanks.

So let me get this straight.

You want to allow people into the country that do not have a commitment to western values like women’s rights, gay rights, and religious pluralism?

Wow. Just wow.

You are off the rails.

 

[woolybug25]

So let me get this straight.

You want to allow people into the country that do not have a commitment to western values like women’s rights, gay rights, and religious pluralism?

Wow. Just wow.

You are off the rails.

Gay rights and religious pluralism are "western values"?

Might want to inform the GOP of that.

 

[connor_in]

From what I have seen, that seems like a convenient way to pretend to walk the middle ground and pander to the crowd. The egg salad is rancid and the tuna smells funny...so sack the 'F' up and order the tofurky even though you've never had it before. At least its fresh and you know whats in it....or just skip lunch and try again tomorrow.

Dude, Not everyone likes red or blue. Some people genuinely like green or orange or purple or gold etc

I have generally posted anti-HRC stuff in this thread, but not generally pro-DJT stuff. However, I doubt Go or Eddy or Wooly or Buster think I am walking the middle ground or pandering to the crowd.

 

[connor_in]

Apparently popular conservative author Brad Thor, an early and loud #NeverTrump stalwart crossed the line today (extremely grudgingly).

Brad Thor: Rethinking the #NeverTrump position « Hot Air

Drug #1 [Hillary] will kill us – no question. Drug #2 [Trump] might kill us, but it also might:

A) Slow the cancer, or even

B) Cure the cancer

It’s a lot to hope for, I know, but hope is all we have left. We have exhausted every other avenue. Make no mistake – I believe one hundred percent in standing on principle. Principle, in this case though, will not cure cancer.

Sadly, that crappy clinic south of the border is starting to look like our only option.

Read some of his tweets:

Another one bites the dust? Brad Thor lays down his #NeverTrump sword – twitchy.com

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I by no means think Trump is the answer. He may, tho, be a (regrettable) step that buys us time to getting there. <a href="https://t.co/mW6nhUUOMo">https://t.co/mW6nhUUOMo</a></p>— Brad Thor (@BradThor) <a href="https://twitter.com/BradThor/status/765614138164965376">August 16, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Let me perfectly clear that I am not pro-Trump. I am pro-liberty & pro-limited gov't, which makes me anti-Hillary.</p>— Brad Thor (@BradThor) <a href="https://twitter.com/BradThor/status/765616813841448960">August 16, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The GOP is already dead - think "Weekend At Bernie's." We will build something new, but it won't happen before Nov 8 <a href="https://t.co/TQZHHpeWbs">https://t.co/TQZHHpeWbs</a></p>— Brad Thor (@BradThor) <a href="https://twitter.com/BradThor/status/765618671339397121">August 16, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Trump is no conservative and I don't want him anywhere near the movement. He buys us time. <a href="https://t.co/R8QLXWaXFI">https://t.co/R8QLXWaXFI</a></p>— Brad Thor (@BradThor) <a href="https://twitter.com/BradThor/status/765621067968876545">August 16, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Our choices are absolutely terrible. In 4 years we can rebuild from Trump or Hillary. Which one might do the least damage?</p>— Brad Thor (@BradThor) <a href="https://twitter.com/BradThor/status/765621468927492096">August 16, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[woolybug25]

Ha. I stand on principle, except when I don't of course...

 

[connor_in]

That you, Donald? What on earth was going on during this Hillary rally livestream? – twitchy.com

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Um, something weird happening with this "Hillary Clinton Speeches & Events” livestream.<a href="https://t.co/sYzh5aKUws">https://t.co/sYzh5aKUws</a> <a href="https://t.co/n9T5UdKMKD">pic.twitter.com/n9T5UdKMKD</a></p>— T. Becket Adams (@BecketAdams) <a href="https://twitter.com/BecketAdams/status/765624372807757828">August 16, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Bubbles]

Dude, Not everyone likes red or blue. Some people genuinely like green or orange or purple or gold etc

I have generally posted anti-HRC stuff in this thread, but not generally pro-DJT stuff. However, I doubt Go or Eddy or Wooly or Buster think I am walking the middle ground or pandering to the crowd.

.

Listen, dirtbag. I know on blue team, you like to lollygag a beer-

There is no blue team. It's all a lie. Red and blue are the same.

Oh, don't start that crap again.

You sound like a conspiracy nut when you talk about that stuff. [sarcastically] The government put a chip in my brain!

[also sarcastically] The president can hear my thoughts!

[sarcastically, while also in great pain] We never landed on the sun!

[sarcastic gasp] They put fluoride in my water!

Actually, that one's true.

It is? No wonder I listen to so much pop music.

 

[GoIrish41]

So let me get this straight.

You want to allow people into the country that do not have a commitment to western values like women’s rights, gay rights, and religious pluralism?

Wow. Just wow.

You are off the rails.

Is that really what I said? No. I'm saying there are no "universal" western values on which people in this country can agree. I find the GOP, for example, to be on shaky ground on women's rights (equal pay), gay rights (attempts to allow gay people to be discriminated against/no gay marriage), and religious pluralism (no Muslims allowed). We have different values. So when we super vet immigrants, we don't really have a universal understanding of what is acceptable for entry into the country. Again, what specifically are the test questions and where is the answer key for this values test that is being proposed?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Trump Claims that Obama Bribed NY Attorney General To File Trump University Lawsuit | RedState

So this happened, I guess.

 

[Bubbles]

Is that really what I said? No. I'm saying there are no "universal" western values on which people in this country can agree. The GOP, for example seems to be on shaky ground on women's rights (equal pay), gay rights (attempts to allow gay people to be discriminated against/no gay marriage), and religious pluralism (no Muslims allowed). So when we super vet immigrants, we don't really have a universal understanding of what is acceptable for entry into the country. Again, what specifically are the test questions and where is the answer key for this values test that is being proposed?

I know that banging this drum is music to many ears, but it has been widely debunked as the result personal and professional choices. Now if you want to talk not about equal pay for equal work, but rather the importance of family in this equation (providing paid time for child rearing, etc), then I think there is a conversation to be had....but I would again argue that it should be a conversation about worker benefits (men, women, gay, straight, etc)...not about discrimination against women.

 

[woolybug25]

I know that banging this drum is music to many ears, but it has been widely debunked as the result personal and professional choices. Now if you want to talk not about equal pay for equal work, but rather the importance of family in this equation (providing paid time for child rearing, etc), then I think there is a conversation to be had....but I would again argue that it should be a conversation about worker benefits (men, women, gay, straight, etc)...not about discrimination against women.

I understand what you're saying and agree, but that is beyond his point. He is just saying that they aren't exactly always on the perceived side of women's rights. You could add abortion and women health issues to his broader point. Whether any of us agree or disagree, they aren't perceived as friendly to women.

 

[Bubbles]

I understand what you're saying and agree, but that is beyond his point. He is just saying that they aren't exactly always on the perceived side of women's rights. You could add abortion and women health issues to his broader point. Whether any of us agree or disagree, they aren't perceived as friendly to women.

Completely agree, I was merely pointing out the flaw in one of the arguments.

 

[GoIrish41]

I know that banging this drum is music to many ears, but it has been widely debunked as the result personal and professional choices. Now if you want to talk not about equal pay for equal work, but rather the importance of family in this equation (providing paid time for child rearing, etc), then I think there is a conversation to be had....but I would again argue that it should be a conversation about worker benefits (men, women, gay, straight, etc)...not about discrimination against women.

Not going to argue point by point, but obviously we don't agree. That disagreement on equal pay and a wide range of other issues is widespread, which would make it exceedingly difficult to create a values test that would be seen as universally acceptable to all who "share" western or American values. Play this proposal out, if you will. You will likely conclude as I have that this is just Trump's Muslim ban in disguise. It wasn't acceptable when he said it bluntly and it isn't any more acceptable repackaged as a values test. Which religious group or nationality might be next to target with a test?

 

[Bubbles]

There is no agreement vs disagreement, its simply looking at the data. If you ignore all of the other factors then there is surely a wage gap between men and women (something in the $.78 on the dollar range) in the same way that there is a huge hiring gap between women and men in the field of nursing. Now....are men being discriminated against in the field of nursing? Probably not...its largely a result of personal and professional choices, as it has been shown is the case with the wage gap.

As for the rest, I wasn't arguing against any other point, or your more general point about universal western values. I bet Whiskey would argue that universal western values are largely inherited from Catholicism and I would tend to agree on most points, but I'll let him roll with that.

 

[IrishBroker]

I actually don't think the GOP is as bad on Gay rights, women's issues, and immigrants....I think they've just done a very poor job explaining their positions, and people don't actually understand what is a "right" and what is a assumed rights these days.

People think they have a "right" to everything these days, and that the federal governments politics, not our founding docs, should decide them. It's madness.

I'm new here, and libertarian just to clear it up.

 

[IrishBroker]

There is no agreement vs disagreement, its simply looking at the data. If you ignore all of the other factors then there is surely a wage gap between men and women (something in the $.78 on the dollar range) in the same way that there is a huge hiring gap between women and men in the field of nursing. Now....are men being discriminated against in the field of nursing? Probably not...its largely a result of personal and professional choices, as it has been shown is the case with the wage gap.

As for the rest, I wasn't arguing against any other point, or your more general point about universal western values. I bet Whiskey would argue that universal western values are largely inherited from Catholicism and I would tend to agree on most points, but I'll let him roll with that.

100% correct. The "Wage gap" is an absolute myth. They don't factor in any variables like personal, educational, and professional choices.

It's more rhetoric from the left.

 

[tussin]

Not going to argue point by point, but obviously we don't agree. That disagreement on equal pay and a wide range of other issues is widespread, which would make it exceedingly difficult to create a values test that would be seen as universally acceptable to all who "share" western or American values. Play this proposal out, if you will. You will likely conclude as I have that this is just Trump's Muslim ban in disguise. It wasn't acceptable when he said it bluntly and it isn't any more acceptable repackaged as a values test. Which religious group or nationality might be next to target with a test?

You are putting way more thought into this than Trump ever has or will.

This is all a horrible attempt by Trump to "course correct" from his xenophobic Muslim ban proposal from the primaries. He will continue to soften and soften the Muslim ban to the point where, if elected (God forbid), it won't exist at all.

 

[tussin]

"Women's rights" are really just feel good platitudes from the left to drum up votes. It's really genius when you think about it.

Gender wage gap = not real.
Abortion = human rights issue.

 

[IrishBroker]

"Women's rights" are really just feel good platitudes from the left to drum up votes. It's really genius when you think about it.

Gender wage gap = not real.
Abortion = human rights issue.

Agreed. Abortion is NOT a women's issue..at least exclusively (I know that may be an unpopular opinion) but it's as you said.

I'd even go so far as to say it's also a men's issue in some form

 

[kmoose]

I understand what you're saying and agree, but that is beyond his point. He is just saying that they aren't exactly always on the perceived side of women's rights. You could add abortion and women health issues to his broader point. Whether any of us agree or disagree, they aren't perceived as friendly to women.

So how are the Democrats on the right side of women's pay, when their nominee's Foundation pays its top male staffers significantly more than its top female staffers?