2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Bogtrotter07]

Yeah, well think of all of the disposable income people would have to stimulate the economy if we just forgave their mortgages or car loans? That's not a valid reason to forgive debt that you willingly took on.

Additional disposable income -- stimulating the economy -- Hmm, didn't we try that?

It led to the two biggest recessions in my lifetime. Trickledown turned out to be pissed on.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I agree with you on the bolded - I don't think you'll get much argument from either side of the aisle that the tax code needs to be simplified in order to avoid, for example, situations where a guy like Mitt Romney ends up with a 14% effective tax rate - but I don't think that really encompasses what Bernie's proposing. I'm a 24 year old single dude, I do my own taxes for free on H&R Block. I'm certainly not utilizing any sort of fancy loopholes to lower my tax rate, nor would I consider myself "rich," but Bernie still wants to take an additional ~$9k out of my pocket every year. That's why I cannot and will not ever support him.

I don't see where you get this. Show me the math, with source material for the methodology.

 

[irishroo]

I don't see where you get this. Show me the math, with source material for the methodology.

Don't know the exact methodology but it's from the link I posted a page or two back from Vox/The Tax Policy Center.

 

[Wild Bill]

BleedB&G has the answer.

This tax table is disingenuous, bordering on libelous.

It is just as fair for me to say that for every dollar increase in taxes you suffer, you will receive a $1.50 in benefits that would eliminate expenses for which you are currently paying.

I am pretty close. Closer than the smoke and mirrors provided by this tax calculator.

I don't have to work another day in my life. My assets are paid for. Life is good. I am certainly not a high income, high overhead individual. But I would save damned close to half again as much as every dollar additional I paid in under Bernie's plan.

How will the gov't turn $1.00 into a $1.50 worth of goods or services?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

But why should that debt be everyone else's burden? Joe the Plummer or Freddy the Fireman aren't asking for your money. I don't get why people think they are entitled to elite education simply because they are a citizen. I want to be rock star, but I don't feel I'm entitled to music lessons because I've been "left with the choice to pay for it or not do what I want to with my life". You wanted to go to law school and didn't have the money. So you willingly took debt to do so. You're not entitled to my money because you chose to pursue elite education.

I know Joe the Plummer, and he has been on the dole more than off!

And I don't know who is asking for elite anything.

As opponents mischaracterize a guy like Bernie Sanders, by accusing him of raising taxes at a ridiculous rate, (any of the opponents of Bernie have to know deep down that they sound looney making these assertions, or they are incredibly naïve and stupid because who in their right mind would run for office with a promise of kicking the voters ass? Not one person would vote for them, not one person contribute to their campaign.

No the trick to being elected is convincing the electorate that you have built a better mouse trap! Right?

The same attack is perpetrated on the less fortunate in our society. A bunch of first world bitches, are translating things into their own terms, which is where the word elite comes in. No, trust me, the less advantage want the chance for their kids to have better than a sixty percent chance of reaching the age of 24 due to violence. They want the chance to get a job with benefits and pay that they can become better at it, advance themselves, and spend a little time with their families to insure their kids have the same opportunities.

Trust me, they don't have a shot at it today. No one needs to point fingers and blame anyone. They just don't have a shot at it, and if they did, the entire cost of our societal overhead would go down over the long run!

 

[Bogtrotter07]

To be fair though, increasing taxes on the rich to pay for the poor is a form of "stealing" other people's money. It's all about how you frame something.

There was a car ahead of me, stopped at a red light with a plethora of bumper stickers.

We were at a left turn lane that immediately proceeded into a school zone, at about that time.

The bumper stickers said, Vote for Rand Paul, Live free or die, Vote 'Democrat,' Republican or To get my country back, which was checked. Etc.

I immediately knew this was a wild one, a true individualist that cow-towed to no one, that stood on his own two feet, was clear-headed, and responsible for his own actions.

So we go around the corner, proceed past the flashing yellow school zone lights, and this guy is the only one that slows down to 20. I laid on the horn and made suggestions to them very loudly out of my window! Why? All the schools are out this week for break. Every other driver was smart enough to know that the school zone ordinance in Ohio ends in during regular school hours. Not on days off.

This person was so imbecilic to not realize he didn't need to slow down. If this is his myopic view from his own challenged perspective, explains the wide variety of interpretations of events from different perspective. I suppose that you could consider a $125 ticket price to an Irish game as stealing, but ND has the right. And if someone doesn't like it, I guess they can stay at home and watch on TV. Right?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Why?

If you cannot answer that question, no amount of explanation will suffice. If you can, you will understand that it is intrinsically nonsensical in nature.

 

[connor_in]

How will the gov't turn $1.00 into a $1.50 worth of goods or services?

See South Park Underwear Gnomes Flow Chart

 

[connor_in]

MSNBC Guest Argues It's a 'Higher Bar' to Prosecute Clinton Because She's Running for President | LawNewz

During a panel discussion Monday morning on MSNBC’s Morning Joe about a pair of new reports in the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post concerning the ongoing FBI investigation into the Clinton private e-mail server, National Journal political reporter Ron Fournier argued that there should be a higher bar to bring charges against Hillary Clinton because she is running for president.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

How will the gov't turn $1.00 into a $1.50 worth of goods or services?

Efficiency.

One example. If pharmaceutical companies are held to similar rate structures as they are in the rest of the First World, the savings would be astronomical, and cut tremendous fat out of the cost of providing all or any health care.

And to save time, as I read it, everyone has the right to compete fairly, and to be rewarded for their success, not guaranteed exorbitant, or even obscene profits because they manage a monopoly, or have the most politicians in their pockets.

People talk about competition raising the standard of living, which may be true. But if it is, guiding against unlimited and unfair rewards based upon the power and greed of those in power, is just as necessary, and probably more important for a successful economic policy, and healthy economy.

 

[irishroo]

There was a car ahead of me, stopped at a red light with a plethora of bumper stickers.

We were at a left turn lane that immediately proceeded into a school zone, at about that time.

The bumper stickers said, Vote for Rand Paul, Live free or die, Vote 'Democrat,' Republican or To get my country back, which was checked. Etc.

I immediately knew this was a wild one, a true individualist that cow-towed to no one, that stood on his own two feet, was clear-headed, and responsible for his own actions.

So we go around the corner, proceed past the flashing yellow school zone lights, and this guy is the only one that slows down to 20. I laid on the horn and made suggestions to them very loudly out of my window! Why? All the schools are out this week for break. Every other driver was smart enough to know that the school zone ordinance in Ohio ends in during regular school hours. Not on days off.

This person was so imbecilic to not realize he didn't need to slow down. If this is his myopic view from his own challenged perspective, explains the wide variety of interpretations of events from different perspective. I suppose that you could consider a $125 ticket price to an Irish game as stealing, but ND has the right. And if someone doesn't like it, I guess they can stay at home and watch on TV. Right?

What in the hell are you talking about?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

MSNBC Guest Argues It's a 'Higher Bar' to Prosecute Clinton Because She's Running for President | LawNewz

Unfortunately, there is no precedent for this, from the destroyed Nixon tapes and files, to the private, and political emails that convicted three Bush staffers of violations under the National Security Act, and rescued them from hard jail time.

So, we don't do that here! We let our (white, I mean, white collar) criminals off lightly.

 

[woolybug25]

Don't know the exact methodology but it's from the link I posted a page or two back from Vox/The Tax Policy Center.

Did you see my post about how clearly the math didn't work? Using my example, they had my tax rate .5% less than what it is now, but costing me $12k more. It doesn't add up and they give zero explanation on how they came up with the number.

It's a gag calculator that annoying uncles bring up for everyone on Easter. That's all it's good for.

 

[phgreek]

MSNBC Guest Argues It's a 'Higher Bar' to Prosecute Clinton Because She's Running for President | LawNewz

...oh christ, I actually respected that guy. He is clearly part of the problem in DC...Ugh.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

What in the hell are you talking about?

I am pointing out that someone who has the perspective that the government is stealing from them by using graduated tax rates, when the same government protects their rights to make higher levels of profits, than almost anywhere else in the world for producing the same effort, has a pretty slanted way of looking at things.

In trying to be nice and diplomatic, I am trying to show how one could come to such a different perspective, cull such vitriol, when most people don't even see what ever it is as an issue.

Do I need to put it more simply, or more bluntly?

 

[irishroo]

Did you see my post about how clearly the math didn't work? Using my example, they had my tax rate .5% less than what it is now, but costing me $12k more. It doesn't add up and they give zero explanation on how they came up with the number.

It's a gag calculator that annoying uncles bring up for everyone on Easter. That's all it's good for.

I did not, now I do. Interesting. Not a tax policy wonk or anything but my understanding is that the Tax Policy Center is pretty well-regarded on both the left and right. Surprises me they would release something that's clearly inaccurate.

 

[irishroo]

I am pointing out that someone who has the perspective that the government is stealing from them by using graduated tax rates, when the same government protects their rights to make higher levels of profits, than almost anywhere else in the world for producing the same effort, has a pretty slanted way of looking at things.

In trying to be nice and diplomatic, I am trying to show how one could come to such a different perspective, cull such vitriol, when most people don't even see what ever it is as an issue.

Do I need to put it more simply, or more bluntly?

Maybe just lose the 2 paragraph, over-dramatic, completely pointless anecdote next time and us mere intellectual mortals will pick up what you're trying to put down.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Maybe just lose the 2 paragraph, over-dramatic, completely pointless anecdote next time and us mere intellectual mortals will pick up what you're trying to put down.

And lose the 'effect of the parable?' No fucking way! I learned from the best.

And if I jettison the drama, no one will listen, will they?

And don't think I take your self deprecating humor as any kind of criticism, or insult.

But I do like you fine. You think for yourself, which is more than most of the general population does.

 

[gkIrish]

I am pointing out that someone who has the perspective that the government is stealing from them by using graduated tax rates, when the same government protects their rights to make higher levels of profits, than almost anywhere else in the world for producing the same effort, has a pretty slanted way of looking at things.

In trying to be nice and diplomatic, I am trying to show how one could come to such a different perspective, cull such vitriol, when most people don't even see what ever it is as an issue.

Do I need to put it more simply, or more bluntly?

I was simply responding to the assertion that the government forgiving student loan debt is somehow "stealing" from taxpayers who don't have student loans.

If a taxpayer who has not personally benefited from a government program is being robbed, then pretty much every person in America is a victim of theft.

 

[connor_in]

...oh christ, I actually respected that guy. He is clearly part of the problem in DC...Ugh.

He has actually been relatively tough on HRC during this.

 

[phgreek]

Yeah to add to this I "willingly" took on debt because my parents couldn't pay for college/law school for me. I was definitely in the minority amongst my peers, who received significant help from family.

So I was left with the choice of not doing what I wanted to do with my life or taking on significant debt.

...we came from similar situations with regard to how school worked. I can say the very cool thing is, you will pay those off at some point, and you will make sure your kids are in a far better position than you. I indeed value my experience...I think it made me make decisions that were far more practical than my well to do friends. The trick is to get your kids to be as practical, and leave debt free...still working on that....

 

[Wild Bill]

Did you see my post about how clearly the math didn't work? Using my example, they had my tax rate .5% less than what it is now, but costing me $12k more. It doesn't add up and they give zero explanation on how they came up with the number.

It's a gag calculator that annoying uncles bring up for everyone on Easter. That's all it's good for.

I found the same thing - the dollar amount paid was much more than I actually paid. But they did estimate my effective tax rate accurately. So the only takeaway I found seems to be: If my current effective tax rate is X%, and my income stays the same, I'll pay Y% under the candidate's proposed plan (which is bullshit speculation b/c there will be changes to the plans no matter who is elected).

 

[woolybug25]

I was simply responding to the assertion that the government forgiving student loan debt is somehow "stealing" from taxpayers who don't have student loans.

If a taxpayer who has not personally benefited from a government program is being robbed, then pretty much every person in America is a victim of theft.

I didn't respond before, so my apologies there, I'll respond to this notion now.

Taxation is supposed to be representative and for the benefit of those being taxed. Arguments can be made that when people cannot afford healthcare, housing or food; those things are for the better good and representative of our values. Infrastructure is the same way, representative and for the good of all users.

That brings me to paying off student loans. People received these loans under the agreement that they could afford them. They didn't need them to eat, house or provide for their families. All of that can be done without the degree and they chose to take the debt in return for hopes of better opportunity. People may not like that they have to live like regular folk, even with their fancy degree, but they chose that path willingly. The loans are also not widely making those people destitute. So when people that knowingly chose to take on debt that is not leaving them destitute, I find much closer to "stealing" from tax payers because it's not lifting up the greater population (benifet of the people) nor is it aimed at giving all classes/constituents representation.

 

[phgreek]

He has actually been relatively tough on HRC during this.

I know he has, but THE issue of the day is the DC mentality, and he is right there. He thinks she can have political ramifications because thats the game for "them", but she can't have legal ramifications for clealry and admittedly engaging in illegal activity because she is one of them...and legal ramifications would rightly await the lowly people like us. I mean that is essentially what he said.

I got news for Ron, I could not have made up a better example of how detached from reality and screwed up EVERYONE is who is part of, or makes their living covering the DC class. Every time someone opens their mouth with elitest nonsense like that, they should get backhanded.

It is time we clean up our own back yard...

 

[NorthDakota]

...we came from similar situations with regard to how school worked. I can say the very cool thing is, you will pay those off at some point, and you will make sure your kids are in a far better position than you. I indeed value my experience...I think it made me make decisions that were far more practical than my well to do friends. The trick is to get your kids to be as practical, and leave debt free...still working on that....

Kids don't need to be debt free...there is a happy medium. I got about 35k in loans to pay back because mom and dad bought a house near campus that at one point or another, my sisters and I all lived in while in school. That saved me an extra 20 grand or so, and I got to learn the consequences of keeping up an old house and a big-ass (40 yards or so) driveway in the 5 month winter we have up here

 

[wizards8507]

What you say is fair. But some of us didn't necessarily willingly take it on. I guess you could say we could have skipped college, but we know that's not a good idea in today's world.

That's completely misguided. With very few exceptions, almost anyone can go to a state school and graduate very near debt-free, assuming they work at least part time while in school and full time in the summer.

I graduated ND with $25,000. My options weren't $25K in debt or skip college. My options were $25K in debt or go to URI and graduate debt free. My parents didn't pay a dime for my college (because they didn't have the money). It's a myth that people who can't pay are left footing the entire bill.

Also, I reject the notion that student debt is so outrageously difficult to get out of. I had $25K paid off within two years of graduation.

 

[phgreek]

Kids don't need to be debt free...there is a happy medium. I got about 35k in loans to pay back because mom and dad bought a house near campus that at one point or another, my sisters and I all lived in while in school. That saved me an extra 20 grand or so, and I got to learn the consequences of keeping up an old house and a big-ass (40 yards or so) driveway in the 5 month winter we have up here

you probably have a point...although my offspring are point guard sized girls, so the snow removal may happen, but with a lot of bitching.

My only experience with North Dakota was, I spent a spring break with my brother who was stationed at Minot at the time...I have never in my life seen a temperature swing like that...I got off the plane at like 30+ degrees and within a day it was like 30 below or something insane...I just remember my brother's dog going out to pee and falling over because the pads on his feet froze up...That place is big boy cold. I got back to school and I can promise you I had no sign of Sun having been on me...

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

That's completely misguided. With very few exceptions, almost anyone can go to a state school and graduate very near debt-free, assuming they work at least part time while in school and full time in the summer.

I graduated ND with $25,000. My options weren't $25K in debt or skip college. My options were $25K in debt or go to URI and graduate debt free. My parents didn't pay a dime for my college (because they didn't have the money). It's a myth that people who can't pay are left footing the entire bill.

Also, I reject the notion that student debt is so outrageously difficult to get out of. I had $25K paid off within two years of graduation.

Here comes wizard with his, "model citizen" story again...

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I posted this in the petition thread but I wanted to put it here as well because it's relevant:

This is the petition everyone needs to sign: Petition for DNC Debate on The Young Turks - https://www.change.org/p/the-young-t...he-young-turks

If you're a Conservative/Repub - They'll out HRC for all her bullshit. How can you not love the thought of that?

If you're a Liberal/Dem - They'll out HRC for all her bullshit. HRC is refusing to debate Bernie. Twitter and US Uncut did us the solid of calling her out: Twitter Responds to Hillary Clinton's Refusal to Debate Sanders

This is the media outlet I mentioned earlier in this thread where a petition was started to get Bernie to do a sit down with Jenk (the host/owner). It got 18,000 signatures in a matter of days and sure enough, Bernie came on the show. Then this new petition was started to get TYT to host a debate (Jenk accepted, it's pending on the DNC). They have over 126,000 signatures in a week! That's more than what's required in 30 days to get the White House to respond. Insane.

The Young Turks is an online media news outlet which dominates it's category.

With its political and social news coverage, The Young Turks channel racks up roughly 37 million monthly views, according to OpenSlate data. But The Young Turks has expanded into an entire digital network, with 35 channels spanning sports, technology, film, college life and dozens of other areas. Together, the network attracts over 75 million monthly views from more than 3 million subscribers.

They are ranked #1 in viewers under the age of 35. The average ages of Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC are 60+. If there was ever a time for Dems to reach out to younger voters, this is it. If TYT joins up with YouTube (like they often do), along with some advertising, this could be the first live streaming online debate that brings in ratings that compare to top TV networks. Everyone should want to see this.

Time Warner and Comcast are among HRC's top 10 donors. They own the networks that host these Democratic Debates and Town Halls. Do you think they're being honest with their questioning, story lines, etc? Hell no.

 

[phgreek]

That's completely misguided. With very few exceptions, almost anyone can go to a state school and graduate very near debt-free, assuming they work at least part time while in school and full time in the summer.

I graduated ND with $25,000. My options weren't $25K in debt or skip college. My options were $25K in debt or go to URI and graduate debt free. My parents didn't pay a dime for my college (because they didn't have the money). It's a myth that people who can't pay are left footing the entire bill.

Also, I reject the notion that student debt is so outrageously difficult to get out of. I had $25K paid off within two years of graduation.

I agree, with combination of work, grants, loans, you can get pretty far. You'd have to admit making that approach work in a private school requires some luck...my luck was landing a job driving a fork lift in a beer distributor at 2x-3x the pay I could get for anything on campus. Otherwise, that would have been rough for me...I did play ball though too, so my time was really constrained...I had to make money in smaller windows of time.

Student debt repayment is impacted by the degree you received and things like your willingness to move to get the pay you need, and your financial plan. ...I took the full term to repay because that money was cheap...and the rate of return on investments was great back then. The cost to my investment "momentum" by paying it all early made no sense to me...and back then you got breaks for simply paying on time, and no more for paying early. Point is you can, and maybe should choose to let the thing run its term.