2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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kmoose

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"That's my discretionary income."

Such a cliche "hard working" American response.

The billionaire class wants you to believe that you should be responsible for yourself. The Republicans create this idea that "you should protect yourself...". In reality, there are people in this country that need help. With capitalism, you will have winners and you will have losers. The losers, can (much more difficultly) crawl their way out on occasion, but the deck is so so so stacked against them.

I believe in creating an equal deck of cards for all socioeconomic situations (I know that's unrealistic so I'll settle for a "more closely balanced" deck).

I would gladly chip in a 50% income tax, if I was investing into a government that helps the people, not corporations. I am a happy person, I don't not need to spoil myself. I do not need nor want to horde money for myself, while I see others sleeping on the streets.

More importantly, I want everyone to have free education. Who are we to put a "price" on an education? I know people that aren't going to college because their parents don't have the money and are fearful of the debt they would be in, if they went that route. How are we, as a "great country", pricing people out of a higher education? Education should be a right, at all levels. If a person wants to learn, they should absolutely be able to learn. We need more educated people in this country, and this world.

Right now, our education system is at the mercy of capitalism. The market is continuing to titrate itself, until it finds the cost/benefit threshold. People are still attending college (via loans), because they view the benefit greater than the cost. So, the cost will only continue to go up until the benefits are no longer worth it.

That, is how our colleges and universities are being ran. Are you serious? We price out education like it is a ticket on the Titanic.

You can continue to be scared and horde your "discretionary income," why I continue to fight for a change in this country, in which children that are born into difficult situations / environments have the same percent chance of exceeding and being happy in this country.

I make about $58,000 a year. I contribute, most years, about $5,000 to charity. I'm not trying to horde my money so that poor people stay poor. But the Federal Government does NOT get to take my discretionary income and spend it for me. So don't try to paint me as some ignorant factory worker who is afraid of poor people.

I'm a big believer in education, too. But too many people are trying to paint it as some kind of "miracle cure" for poverty. Guess what? Most of the kids that a free college education would help the most? They aren't even finishing High School, so what makes anyone think that they will take advantage of free college to pull themselves out of poverty?

Keep up the good fight.
 

ACamp1900

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This isn't directed at any one poster or point, just my general thoughts on taxation in the current climate.... My beef with taxes is that rather than actually fixing or doing away with broken, wasteful and inefficient programs, the gov just points the finger at tax payers like we aren't giving enough... I'm all for everyone having skin in the game (key word there is everyone) but let's not act like the problem all boils down to 'we just need to pay more taxes'... fix what's broken, then we can talk tax increases, until then, gtfoh on taking more of my hard earned money and basically throwing it into a fireplace.
 
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ACamp1900

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from what I have experienced.

I have done work in Japan, Panama, Singapore, Australia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Malta, Cyprus, Jordan, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, and the Czech Republic. In EVERY one of those instances, the people I worked with couldn't stop talking about how great America is, how hard working Americans are, how smart Americans are, and how wretched our politicians are. They were pretty well split on Hollywood; most love the movies, but think that the actors and actresses behave like spoiled children. That's been my experience.

fetch
 

BleedBlueGold

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This isn't directed at any one poster or point, just my general thoughts on taxation in the current climate.... My beef with taxes is that rather than actually fixing or doing away with broken, wasteful and inefficient programs, the gov just points the finger at tax payers like we aren't giving enough... I'm all for everyone having skin in the game (key word there is everyone) but let's not act like the problem all boils down to 'we just need to pay more taxes'... fix what's broken, then we can talk tax increases, until then, gtfoh on taking more of my hard earned money and basically throwing it into a fireplace.

The whole "fair share" discussion, I personally feel, is worded poorly and taken out of context to fit into specific agendas.

Do I think it's fair to make the wealthiest 1% earners pay 60%, 70%, 80% or more in taxes "just because they earn more and can spare more?" No. Not at all. BUT the biggest tax breaks and loopholes benefit those who happen to be in this group and it drives their average tax rate down so low that it's less than what their secretaries pay. That is what's unfair. So with that said, I'm not necessarily for raising taxes as I am getting rid of the loopholes and deductions that is essentially legalized tax fraud for the billionaire class. Whatever your marginalized tax rate, that's the tax you pay. End of story.

And yes, I agree that there should be less wasteful spending. There needs to be both, responsible balanced budgets that are efficient just as there needs to be fair taxes top-to-bottom.
 

wizards8507

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With capitalism, you will have winners and you will have losers. The losers, can (much more difficultly) crawl their way out on occasion, but the deck is so so so stacked against them.
That's bullshit. I'm not a victim, and neither are you. Yeah, it'll be damn hard for me to buy a yacht someday without a trust fund, but the deck stacked against me in terms of buying a yacht is not the same as the deck stacked against me in life. It's called the mediocrity principle. Most people are average.

I started working the day I turned 16 without a dime from my parents or anybody else. I graduated college with zero cash and $25,000 in debt. But I studied something useful, paid attention in class, and prepared for job interviews. Four years later I have a wife, a baby, a house, two cars, zero debt, a top-30% income, and a growing nest egg. And you know what? It wasn't that hard. Age 26, and I'm in a position in life that you think is unachievable for the average American in their lifetime. That's absolutely pathetic. There's nothing special about me. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth or special business connections. I just did what I was supposed to do. Excepting any legitimate physical or mental disabilities, there's no reason why the same can't be true for anyone in this country with half a brain and some work ethic. But it's way easier for people to bitch about how Obama or the Republicans or the Koch brothers are keeping them down. How about instead of lobbying for higher minimum wage, you do something to get yourself out of a minimum wage job in the first place? How about instead of picketing the state capitol so you can get high in a McDonald's, you put the bong down and learn how to weld?

BUT the biggest tax breaks and loopholes benefit those who happen to be in this group and it drives their average tax rate down so low that it's less than what their secretaries pay.
Yeah, that's not true. Not even a little bit. That's political rhetoric banking on the fact that only 2 in every 1,000 people are CPAs. High wage earners are taxed at 35% on ordinary income. When they invest that money and earn capital gains, it's taxed again at 15%. The 15% number is the one used to say "executives pay less than their secretaries." Assuming the secretary is earning around $50,000 (damn good pay for a secretary), they probably have an AGI of about $39,700 after the standard deduction and personal exemption. That means the tax is $5,788, or about 12% of their $50,000 salary, still lower than the 15% if we assume their executive is earning ONLY capital gains. The reason Warren Buffet's secretary is paying a high rate is because she's not making secretary money. She's making Warren-Buffet-secretary money, so six figures easy. Administrative professionals for C-level executives are often director-level or higher.
 
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phgreek

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This isn't directed at any one poster or point, just my general thoughts on taxation in the current climate.... My beef with taxes is that rather than actually fixing or doing away with broken, wasteful and inefficient programs, the gov just points the finger at tax payers like we aren't giving enough... I'm all for everyone having skin in the game (key word there is everyone) but let's not act like the problem all boils down to 'we just need to pay more taxes'... fix what's broken, then we can talk tax increases, until then, gtfoh on taking more of my hard earned money and basically throwing it into a fireplace.

EXACTLY!

Why is the concept of WASTE so damned foreign to people. When your kid pisses away his birthday money, is your immediate solution..."Give him MORE" next time in hopes that something good may come out of his spending. And if you think many of us aren't already approaching 50% in taxes...THINK AGAIN. Someone in the 25% tax bracket is already paying somewhere near 38%. By the time You pay State, Federal anyone in the mid tax brackets are ALREADY approaching HALF. It is absurd to think MORE will produce a benefit.
 

RDU Irish

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EXACTLY!

Why is the concept of WASTE so damned foreign to people. When your kid pisses away his birthday money, is your immediate solution..."Give him MORE" next time in hopes that something good may come out of his spending. And if you think many of us aren't already approaching 50% in taxes...THINK AGAIN. Someone in the 25% tax bracket is already paying somewhere near 38%. By the time You pay State, Federal anyone in the mid tax brackets are ALREADY approaching HALF. It is absurd to think MORE will produce a benefit.

Same 25% tax bracket pays 15% FICA that comes off the top. 40% plus state, plus real estate tax, plus sales tax, plus taxes on your cell phone bill-cable bill-utility bill..... Yeah it adds up pretty quickly.

This myth that rich people have magic loopholes is just pure fear mongering. Carried interest is not a "loophole" it is a retarded income classification. Hedge fund managers have been taking over the Forbes 400 for quite some time and this is a big reason for it. They really aren't producing shit. At minimum, they should be taxed like regular income because guess what, it is their method for making a living and they did not contribute capital. It is BS and both sides should not hesitate to close it.
 

RDU Irish

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That's bullshit. I'm not a victim, and neither are you. Yeah, it'll be damn hard for me to buy a yacht someday without a trust fund, but the deck stacked against me in terms of buying a yacht is not the same as the deck stacked against me in life. It's called the mediocrity principle. Most people are average.

I started working the day I turned 16 without a dime from my parents or anybody else. I graduated college with zero cash and $25,000 in debt. But I studied something useful, paid attention in class, and prepared for job interviews. Four years later I have a wife, a baby, a house, two cars, zero debt, a top-30% income, and a growing nest egg. And you know what? It wasn't that hard. Age 26, and I'm in a position in life that you think is unachievable for the average American in their lifetime. That's absolutely pathetic. There's nothing special about me. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth or special business connections. I just did what I was supposed to do. Excepting any legitimate physical or mental disabilities, there's no reason why the same can't be true for anyone in this country with half a brain and some work ethic. But it's way easier for people to bitch about how Obama or the Republicans or the Koch brothers are keeping them down. How about instead of lobbying for higher minimum wage, you do something to get yourself out of a minimum wage job in the first place? How about instead of picketing the state capitol so you can get high in a McDonald's, you put the bong down and learn how to weld?


Yeah, that's not true. Not even a little bit. That's political rhetoric banking on the fact that only 2 in every 1,000 people are CPAs. High wage earners are taxed at 35% on ordinary income. When they invest that money and earn capital gains, it's taxed again at 15%. The 15% number is the one used to say "executives pay less than their secretaries." Assuming the secretary is earning around $50,000 (damn good pay for a secretary), they probably have an AGI of about $39,700 after the standard deduction and personal exemption. That means the tax is $5,788, or about 12% of their $50,000 salary, still lower than the 15% if we assume their executive is earning ONLY capital gains. The reason Warren Buffet's secretary is paying a high rate is because she's not making secretary money. She's making Warren-Buffet-secretary money, so six figures easy. Administrative professionals for C-level executives are often director-level or higher.

This sums up the American Dream to me. Fly straight and make mediocre choices and you will find yourself in a better place.

Instead of having Lebron James speak to inner city kids, bring in some regular Joes who escaped the cycle to have good, clean, middle class lives and careers.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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That's bullshit. I'm not a victim, and neither are you. Yeah, it'll be damn hard for me to buy a yacht someday without a trust fund, but the deck stacked against me in terms of buying a yacht is not the same as the deck stacked against me in life. It's called the mediocrity principle. Most people are average.

I started working the day I turned 16 without a dime from my parents or anybody else. I graduated college with zero cash and $25,000 in debt. But I studied something useful, paid attention in class, and prepared for job interviews. Four years later I have a wife, a baby, a house, two cars, zero debt, a top-30% income, and a growing nest egg. And you know what? It wasn't that hard. Age 26, and I'm in a position in life that you think is unachievable for the average American in their lifetime. That's absolutely pathetic. There's nothing special about me. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth or special business connections. I just did what I was supposed to do. Excepting any legitimate physical or mental disabilities, there's no reason why the same can't be true for anyone in this country with half a brain and some work ethic. But it's way easier for people to bitch about how Obama or the Republicans or the Koch brothers are keeping them down. How about instead of lobbying for higher minimum wage, you do something to get yourself out of a minimum wage job in the first place? How about instead of picketing the state capitol so you can get high in a McDonald's, you put the bong down and learn how to weld?


Yeah, that's not true. Not even a little bit. That's political rhetoric banking on the fact that only 2 in every 1,000 people are CPAs. High wage earners are taxed at 35% on ordinary income. When they invest that money and earn capital gains, it's taxed again at 15%. The 15% number is the one used to say "executives pay less than their secretaries." Assuming the secretary is earning around $50,000 (damn good pay for a secretary), they probably have an AGI of about $39,700 after the standard deduction and personal exemption. That means the tax is $5,788, or about 12% of their $50,000 salary, still lower than the 15% if we assume their executive is earning ONLY capital gains. The reason Warren Buffet's secretary is paying a high rate is because she's not making secretary money. She's making Warren-Buffet-secretary money, so six figures easy. Administrative professionals for C-level executives are often director-level or higher.

As an ecologist (with a background in economics), there is a logical phenomenon called survivorship bias. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias , here is a link. I suggest all read this as it is one of the largest logical lapses in our society). Essentially, with this bias, people fall victim to focusing primarily on the "good outcomes" regarding people/events/history/etc because the "good outcomes" are the ones that survived. The "failures" are forgotten about, because we have evolved primarily through the mechanism of mimicry . Survivors (more accurately "want to be survivors") mistakenly don't think enough about failure. They convince themselves that they'll succeed like everyone else.

A common example would be a kid dropping out of school to pursue a start-up opportunity, "look at Bill Gates, he dropped out of college." Everyone is familiar with this story, because he survived (and then some) and the media has highlighted his success. On the reverse, people don't listen to stories about the "failures". They see that Bill Gates has taken this road and succeed, why can't I? In reality, there are orders of magnitudes separating the Bill Gates' of the world from the Joe Blows.

This bias is known well by politicians, and they play it to their advantage. Republicans (most) have convinced the middle class that they should take care of themselves, they shouldn't increase taxes for entitlements. Because (as they say), "if you work hard, even you can be president!!!" (more generally, "if you work hard you can succeed like I have!").

You sir, are a survivor, as am I. I congratulate you. But unlike yourself, I believe that their are many people that need help. There are many, many failures in our society. Of course I'll admit that some have failed under their own misdoing, I'd be foolish to not admit this. But, I know many, many people that have failed, that HAVE worked hard. Working hard =/= 1.0 correlation. In my original post I specifically, intentionally said, (paraphrasing) "...you can crawl your way out, but its more difficult."

I want to live in a society in which a child born into a poor, inner-city, crime ridden neighborhood has the same statistical likelihood of "making it" (however you chose to define success) in America.

As for giving the government our money for "wasteful programs," who do you suggest fights corporations for us? A single person has no power. Even a massive group of people has no institutional power (although, you could always go the French Revolution route I suppose). This is what a democracy is for, they represent the PEOPLE of this country, not corporate lobbyists. We do not practice this any longer, our system is broken. With a Bernie Sanders-esque type of change, the people will have more control than we have in many decades.

Everyone must stop focusing solely on the good things that our country has done in the past, and we must focus on the problems that are only continuing to worsen. Capitalism "worked well" in terms of jump-starting an economy for a newly developing nation. Now, capitalism is so "fined tuned" that everything that can be made into a "market" has been made into a market. Everything that could be sold at a higher price, is being sold at a higher price (and will continue to rise until we stop consuming).

You can say that I'm being "naive" or "overly ambitious", but we are humans. We are highly intelligent beings. If we can evolve to the stage, consciously, were we value group well being over individual well being, we will no longer follow the Darwinian rules of capitalism.
 
C

Cackalacky

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As an ecologist (with a background in economics), there is a logical phenomenon called survivorship bias. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias , here is a link. I suggest all read this as it is one of the largest logical lapses in our society). Essentially, with this bias, people fall victim to focusing primarily on the "good outcomes" regarding people/events/history/etc because the "good outcomes" are the ones that survived. The "failures" are forgotten about, because we have evolved primarily through the mechanism of mimicry . Survivors (more accurately "want to be survivors") mistakenly don't think enough about failure. They convince themselves that they'll succeed like everyone else.

A common example would be a kid dropping out of school to pursue a start-up opportunity, "look at Bill Gates, he dropped out of college." Everyone is familiar with this story, because he survived (and then some) and the media has highlighted his success. On the reverse, people don't listen to stories about the "failures". They see that Bill Gates has taken this road and succeed, why can't I? In reality, there are orders of magnitudes separating the Bill Gates' of the world from the Joe Blows.

This bias is known well by politicians, and they play it to their advantage. Republicans (most) have convinced the middle class that they should take care of themselves, they shouldn't increase taxes for entitlements. Because (as they say), "if you work hard, even you can be president!!!" (more generally, "if you work hard you can succeed like I have!").

You sir, are a survivor, as am I. I congratulate you. But unlike yourself, I believe that their are many people that need help. There are many, many failures in our society. Of course I'll admit that some have failed under their own misdoing, I'd be foolish to not admit this. But, I know many, many people that have failed, that HAVE worked hard. Working hard =/= 1.0 correlation. In my original post I specifically, intentionally said, (paraphrasing) "...you can crawl your way out, but its more difficult."

I want to live in a society in which a child born into a poor, inner-city, crime ridden neighborhood has the same statistical likelihood of "making it" (however you chose to define success) in America.

As for giving the government our money for "wasteful programs," who do you suggest fights corporations for us? A single person has no power. Even a massive group of people has no institutional power (although, you could always go the French Revolution route I suppose). This is what a democracy is for, they represent the PEOPLE of this country, not corporate lobbyists. We do not practice this any longer, our system is broken. With a Bernie Sanders-esque type of change, the people will have more control than we have in many decades.

Everyone must stop focusing solely on the good things that our country has done in the past, and we must focus on the problems that are only continuing to worsen. Capitalism "worked well" in terms of jump-starting an economy for a newly developing nation. Now, capitalism is so "fined tuned" that everything that can be made into a "market" has been made into a market. Everything that could be sold at a higher price, is being sold at a higher price (and will continue to rise until we stop consuming).

You can say that I'm being "naive" or "overly ambitious", but we are humans. We are highly intelligent beings. If we can evolve to the stage, consciously, were we value group well being over individual well being, we will no longer follow the Darwinian rules of capitalism.

You should be aware that wizards is unfazed by ecological and anthropologic interpretations of economic theory.
 

wizards8507

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As an ecologist (with a background in economics), there is a logical phenomenon called survivorship bias. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias , here is a link. I suggest all read this as it is one of the largest logical lapses in our society). Essentially, with this bias, people fall victim to focusing primarily on the "good outcomes" regarding people/events/history/etc because the "good outcomes" are the ones that survived. The "failures" are forgotten about, because we have evolved primarily through the mechanism of mimicry . Survivors (more accurately "want to be survivors") mistakenly don't think enough about failure. They convince themselves that they'll succeed like everyone else.

A common example would be a kid dropping out of school to pursue a start-up opportunity, "look at Bill Gates, he dropped out of college." Everyone is familiar with this story, because he survived (and then some) and the media has highlighted his success. On the reverse, people don't listen to stories about the "failures". They see that Bill Gates has taken this road and succeed, why can't I? In reality, there are orders of magnitudes separating the Bill Gates' of the world from the Joe Blows.

This bias is known well by politicians, and they play it to their advantage. Republicans (most) have convinced the middle class that they should take care of themselves, they shouldn't increase taxes for entitlements. Because (as they say), "if you work hard, even you can be president!!!" (more generally, "if you work hard you can succeed like I have!").

You sir, are a survivor, as am I. I congratulate you. But unlike yourself, I believe that their are many people that need help. There are many, many failures in our society. Of course I'll admit that some have failed under their own misdoing, I'd be foolish to not admit this. But, I know many, many people that have failed, that HAVE worked hard. Working hard =/= 1.0 correlation. In my original post I specifically, intentionally said, (paraphrasing) "...you can crawl your way out, but its more difficult."
You're conflating two different ideas. Survivorship bias works in your example of Bill Gates dropping out of college, but I'm not using Bill Gates as an example of the best course of action for the average American. You're right, the risks inherrent in trying to become the next Bill Gates are impractical for most people to pursue. That's why Bill Gates isn't the example. I'm the example. Comfort, stability, normalcy, and happiness are the goal; not "wealth beyond your wildest dreams." Survivorship bias does NOT apply in my situation because there was virtually no risk. It's just about impossible for you to fail to have what I have unless you do something to cause it. Laziness, drug abuse, crime, etc. As others have said, you can be comfortable and successful by making the "straight and narrow" basic decisions. Go to class. Don't bury yourself in too much debt. Take moderate risks where the worst-case scenario is manageable. Nothing about my situation required me to drop out of school or take any other inordinate risk where there's a pile of failures in my wake that I'm ignoring by focusing on my survivor scenario.

In other words:

If you take Bill Gates' path, 99.9% of people will fail. Looking at Bill Gates is survivorship bias.

If you take my path, 99.9% of people will be successful. I am a fair model of what can be expected if you make the same decisions I did.

You can say that I'm being "naive" or "overly ambitious", but we are humans. We are highly intelligent beings. If we can evolve to the stage, consciously, were we value group well being over individual well being, we will no longer follow the Darwinian rules of capitalism.
Is your "background in economics" that you used to polish Paul Krugman's backside for him? Because that's not even close to how capitalism functions. Firms compete. Individuals, for the most part, cooperate. Yes, our fundamental motivation is self-interest, but we're intellectual beings who understand that self-interests are best pursued through economic and social cooperation. Those mechanisms (i.e. markets) function most smoothly when transactions are based on free will, not compulsion from the Leviathan.

You should be aware that wizards is unfazed by ecological and anthropologic interpretations of economic theory.
Right, because ecologists and anthropologists don't know shit about economics. They spent their lives in classrooms and graduated to... teaching the same shit they learned in the same classrooms. They haven't been out in the economic living capitalism.
 

BleedBlueGold

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Yeah, that's not true. Not even a little bit. That's political rhetoric banking on the fact that only 2 in every 1,000 people are CPAs. High wage earners are taxed at 35% on ordinary income. When they invest that money and earn capital gains, it's taxed again at 15%. The 15% number is the one used to say "executives pay less than their secretaries." Assuming the secretary is earning around $50,000 (damn good pay for a secretary), they probably have an AGI of about $39,700 after the standard deduction and personal exemption. That means the tax is $5,788, or about 12% of their $50,000 salary, still lower than the 15% if we assume their executive is earning ONLY capital gains. The reason Warren Buffet's secretary is paying a high rate is because she's not making secretary money. She's making Warren-Buffet-secretary money, so six figures easy. Administrative professionals for C-level executives are often director-level or higher.

The growth is taxed at 15%. The whole sum isn't taxed "again."

And I'm referring to percentages only. Not that actual amount paid. It's all relative. Of course Buffet pays more money into the tax system than his secretary. He makes substantially more than her. Even if his percentage paid into the tax system is lower, his actual money-in is a lot higher. But that's a bullshit argument because he's using the system to his advantage to lower that tax bill by millions of dollars. So his percentage of actual paid taxes IS lower than say, his secretary. And that's what is unfair about the system. Billionaires use loopholes and special tax advantages to lower their average tax cost.

This myth that rich people have magic loopholes is just pure fear mongering. Carried interest is not a "loophole" it is a retarded income classification. Hedge fund managers have been taking over the Forbes 400 for quite some time and this is a big reason for it. They really aren't producing shit. At minimum, they should be taxed like regular income because guess what, it is their method for making a living and they did not contribute capital. It is BS and both sides should not hesitate to close it.

An no, these loopholes are not mythological. Sanders Asks Obama to Close Six Egregious Corporate Tax Loopholes - Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont
 

wizards8507

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The growth is taxed at 15%. The whole sum isn't taxed "again."

And I'm referring to percentages only. Not that actual amount paid. It's all relative. Of course Buffet pays more money into the tax system than his secretary. He makes substantially more than her. Even if his percentage paid into the tax system is lower, his actual money-in is a lot higher. But that's a bullshit argument because he's using the system to his advantage to lower that tax bill by millions of dollars. So his percentage of actual paid taxes IS lower than say, his secretary. And that's what is unfair about the system. Billionaires use loopholes and special tax advantages to lower their average tax cost.
You're wrong. You're just objectively wrong. This isn't your area of expertise and that's fine, but please stop pretending that it is. Almost every tax break is phased out above certain income levels. The mega-wealthy aren't benefiting from any of them.

Now you're talking about corporate taxation, which has nothing to do with individual taxation, i.e. what "rich people" pay. The corporate tax rate should be zero, because it's borne by employees and consumers, i.e. the middle class. It's a regressive tax, and progressives should wise up to that. Bernie Sanders is an economically illiterate moron.

Abolishing Corporate Tax is a Progressive Cause
 
C

Cackalacky

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Right, because ecologists and anthropologists don't know shit about economics. They spent their lives in classrooms and graduated to... teaching the same shit they learned in the same classrooms. They haven't been out in the economic living capitalism.

I'd say its more that economists know jack shit about how to practice their philosophy in harmony with our natural world. I could just as easily argue that modern supply and demand economic philosophy is not coherent or viable with regards to survival in terms of ecological and anthropological "fitness". Its quite clear we have turned our only home into a dumpster in the last two hundred years... coincidentally with the rise of modern economic philosophy.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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You're conflating two different ideas. Survivorship bias works in your example of Bill Gates dropping out of college, but I'm not using Bill Gates as an example of the best course of action for the average American. You're right, the risks inherrent in trying to become the next Bill Gates are impractical for most people to pursue. That's why Bill Gates isn't the example. I'm the example. Comfort, stability, normalcy, and happiness are the goal; not "wealth beyond your wildest dreams." Survivorship bias does NOT apply in my situation because there was virtually no risk. It's just about impossible for you to fail to have what I have unless you do something to cause it. Laziness, drug abuse, crime, etc. As others have said, you can be comfortable and successful by making the "straight and narrow" basic decisions. Go to class. Don't bury yourself in too much debt. Take moderate risks where the worst-case scenario is manageable. Nothing about my situation required me to drop out of school or take any other inordinate risk where there's a pile of failures in my wake that I'm ignoring by focusing on my survivor scenario.

In other words:

If you take Bill Gates' path, 99.9% of people will fail. Looking at Bill Gates is survivorship bias.

If you take my path, 99.9% of people will be successful. I am a fair model of what can be expected if you make the same decisions I did.


Is your "background in economics" that you used to polish Paul Krugman's backside for him? Because that's not even close to how capitalism functions. Firms compete. Individuals, for the most part, cooperate. Yes, our fundamental motivation is self-interest, but we're intellectual beings who understand that self-interests are best pursued through economic and social cooperation. Those mechanisms (i.e. markets) function most smoothly when transactions are based on free will, not compulsion from the Leviathan.


Right, because ecologists and anthropologists don't know shit about economics. They spent their lives in classrooms and graduated to... teaching the same shit they learned in the same classrooms. They haven't been out in the economic living capitalism.

1) Good luck going to a 4 year university with no money from your family and coming out without substantial debt (ps working partime of the side will not cover it, don't even get me started on this).

2) I specifically said I took a cliche, common example by using Bill Gates as an example. I could be more general, if you wish. Look at start-ups, right now there are dozens, if not hundreds, of social media companies that think they can be the next Facebook/Twitter/etc, because they have ideas that are "better" than Facebook, but in actuality, most will fail, because they don't view themselves as potential failures, they only view themselves as future winners.

3) This is clearly a made up value, and frankly, is just a silly, arbitrary placeholder for your weak argument.


4) Individuals work for corporations (that even you admit are competing). Therefore, individuals are pawns in the corporate chess matches.

5) My ecological concentration and research was in microbial ecology (if you don't know what that is, you may want to google it). I now work in the pharmaceutical industry, researching how drugs are (or aren't being) metabolized. I work directly with our business developers, marketers, customer support, follow scientists, and our client's that contract us for their research aid.

You are absolute bigot for suggesting that "ecologists and anthropologists... haven't been out in the economic living capitalism." If you don't see the inherent similarities between ecology and economics, you are absolutely foolish.
 

wizards8507

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I'd say its more that economists know jack shit about how to practice their philosophy in harmony with our natural world. I could just as easily argue that modern supply and demand economic philosophy is not coherent or viable with regards to survival in terms of ecological and anthropological "fitness".
Call me a robber baron, but I'm fine if the Earth is one degree warmer on average if that means I can shit indoors, Skype with my daughter's grandparents whenever I want, go to Disney World every year, and talk to you jokers on my ThinkPad.

Its quite clear we have turned our only home into a dumpster in the last two hundred years... coincidentally with the rise of modern economic philosophy.
Come on man, you're smarter than that. You'd rather live in this world 200 years ago? Life expectancy of 40? Infant mortality of 10% or worse?
 

ACamp1900

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1) Good luck going to a 4 year university with no money from your family and coming out without substantial debt (ps working partime of the side will not cover it, don't even get me started on this).

This is my story sadly, even though I worked all the way through college... I love all the different theories on why education costs so much now... it seems pretty clear to me what happened.
 
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Cackalacky

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Call me a robber baron, but I'm fine if the Earth is one degree warmer on average if that means I can shit indoors, Skype with my daughter's grandparents whenever I want, go to Disney World every year, and talk to you jokers on my ThinkPad.


Come on man, you're smarter than that. You'd rather live in this world 200 years ago? Life expectancy of 40? Infant mortality of 10% or worse?

LOL. Unfazed.

I said nothing about returning to our past. Rather you do not seem to grasp that we can still produce and invent things but in a much more sustainable manner. That is a big difference....Supply and Demand though does not jive with this thought process. Its more more more now now now... Worry about tomorrow tomorrow.
 
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wizards8507

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1) Good luck going to a 4 year university with no money from your family and coming out without substantial debt (ps working partime of the side will not cover it, don't even get me started on this).
I did that. Not just a four year university, but a four year ELITE university. I graduated from the University of Notre Dame with $25,000 in debt and paid it off in one year. Again, it wasn't that hard. If I had gone to a state school, I would have graduated debt free.

2) I specifically said I took a cliche, common example by using Bill Gates as an example. I could be more general, if you wish. Look at start-ups, right now there are dozens, if not hundreds, of social media companies that think they can be the next Facebook/Twitter/etc, because they have ideas that are "better" than Facebook, but in actuality, most will fail, because they don't view themselves as potential failures, they only view themselves as future winners.
Those are still stupid examples, because it presupposes that the only path to success is the extremely risky path of a startup. You can be successful without taking anywhere near that kind of risk, meaning your chances of reaching your destination are exponentially higher.

4) Individuals work for corporations (that even you admit are competing). Therefore, individuals are pawns in the corporate chess matches.
Individuals voluntarily work for corporations. If they don't like it, they can quit. Start their own business. Farm. Prostitute themselves. Whatever. A voluntary pawn is not a pawn.

5) My ecological concentration and research was in microbial ecology (if you don't know what that is, you may want to google it). I now work in the pharmaceutical industry, researching how drugs are (or aren't being) metabolized. I work directly with our business developers, marketers, customer support, follow scientists, and our client's that contract us for their research aid.

You are absolute bigot for suggesting that "ecologists and anthropologists... haven't been out in the economic living capitalism." If you don't see the inherent similarities between ecology and economics, you are absolutely foolish.
"Ecologists and anthropologists" referred to professional academics, not folks like yourself. FWIW, I hold academic economists in the same low regard.
 

kmoose

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I'd say its more that economists know jack shit about how to practice their philosophy in harmony with our natural world.


Does the Great White concern itself with the hunger that a tuna or porpoise feels? Nope.
Does the lion worry about whether or not a hyena has adequate recuperative care for an injury? Nope
Does a cheetah take down one strong gazelle for every weak gazelle? Nope.

I would say that capitalism is way more in tune to the natural order of the planet than most, if not all, other economic models.
 
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Cackalacky

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Does the Great White concern itself with the hunger that a tuna or porpoise feels? Nope.
Does the lion worry about whether or not a hyena has adequate recuperative care for an injury? Nope
Does a cheetah take down one strong gazelle for every weak gazelle? Nope.

I would say that capitalism is way more in tune to the natural order of the planet than most, if not all, other economic models.

Does the Great White mine petroleum products burn them and choke the life off the planet? Nope

Does the lion reproduce at break neck speed even though they have a relatively limited food supply? Nope

Does a cheetah wantonly kill other species by its activities? Nope.

I honestly have no idea how you can say that what we are doing is sustainable. Its just flat out not and our current form of capitalism is hastening it.

Humans did not evolve from the philosophy of the individual. It requires an environment and it requires a group to survive. We are killing our planet and driving the group away by emphasizing the individual. I do not see how that is remotely compatible with ecological or anthropological facts.
 

connor_in

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In Pinnochio, The Coachman promised everyone "free stuff," and everyone became democrats. The End. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/DemDebate?src=hash">#DemDebate</a> <a href="http://t.co/gXY4Np7mqU">pic.twitter.com/gXY4Np7mqU</a></p>— Chet Cannon (@Chet_Cannon) <a href="https://twitter.com/Chet_Cannon/status/654121485729042434">October 14, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

kmoose

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Does the Great White mine petroleum products burn them and choke the life off the planet? Nope

Does the lion reproduce at break neck speed even though they have a relatively limited food supply? Nope

Does a cheetah wantonly kill other species by its activities? Nope.

I honestly have no idea how you can say that what we are doing is sustainable. Its just flat out not and our current form of capitalism is hastening it.

Humans did not evolve from the philosophy of the individual. It requires an environment and it requires a group to survive. We are killing our planet and driving the group away by emphasizing the individual. I do not see how that is remotely compatible with ecological or anthropological facts.


I never said it was sustainable. Other species in nature have adapted over time, and so do we need to.

What I was trying to point out is that there seems to be this idea that man has to be fair to other men, like animals are. When, in fact, the animal world is a dog eat dog world of survival of the fittest.

To be clear: I would like for every American to have a comfortable standard of living; even those who cannot work. I'd like for every American to have above adequate healthcare. I'd like for every American to be well educated for free. I'd like for every American to have a positive outlook. However, if we can't afford it, then we can't afford it.
 

RDU Irish

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The growth is taxed at 15%. The whole sum isn't taxed "again."

And I'm referring to percentages only. Not that actual amount paid. It's all relative. Of course Buffet pays more money into the tax system than his secretary. He makes substantially more than her. Even if his percentage paid into the tax system is lower, his actual money-in is a lot higher. But that's a bullshit argument because he's using the system to his advantage to lower that tax bill by millions of dollars. So his percentage of actual paid taxes IS lower than say, his secretary. And that's what is unfair about the system. Billionaires use loopholes and special tax advantages to lower their average tax cost.



An no, these loopholes are not mythological. Sanders Asks Obama to Close Six Egregious Corporate Tax Loopholes - Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont

Warren Buffett pays himself about $100,000 and NEVER sells any of his enormous stock position in BRK-A - therefore never paying ANY capital gains tax. He did GIFT a huge sum of BRK-A stock to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation which was a tax free event. Virtually everything he does of any cost is a business expense. No vacations, modest home and car, very low cost of living. As such he prefers to parlay corporate profits into more profits rather than tax inefficiently pay himself.

His secretary probably makes a higher salary than him, thus pays higher taxes. Buffett's entire career has been one big tax avoidance scheme. Cap gains are only paid when you sell shit at a profit.

BRK pays ZEROOOOOO dividends, thus there is not forced taxable event on shareholders. Buffett does this on purpose arguing dividends are a double taxation and someone needing cash can sell shares (a statement laced in hypocrisy that lead to the eventual B share situation at BRK).

Warren Buffett is the biggest tax hypocrite known to man. If he truly believed government was such a good shepherd of tax dollars he would give to them instead of Bill and Melinda Gates. At the same point, his reinvestment of profits has built an enormous enterprise employing thousands of people for tremendous benefit to our society. He probably has done more for our economy by reinvesting profits and avoiding taxes than would have been squandered and lost by Uncle Sam over the years.


end of the day, you need to read up on tax arguments. You obviously have a loose grasp of the concepts and their true implications on the real world.
 
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