2016 Presidential Horse Race

[NDgradstudent]

Confronting immigration frankly is not suggesting that an entire race of people are rapists. Immigrants who come to this country are not allowed to vote, so either party has an opportunity to make their pitch to their offspring, and to demonstrate over the long haul that theirs is the best party for these individuals and their families. By and large, these immigrants have leaned Democrat because of Republican policies like "bigger fences" and seeking to restrict voting rights. These people are not "natural" Democrats or "natural" Republicans. Their experiences shape their political leanings, which they act upon once they become citizens.

Also, if your issue with immigration reform is based on your party refusing to become more compassionate and reaching out to future citizens and instead trying to block immigration in the "melting pot" that has always been a cornerstone of the country, then your party is doomed to its fate. Republicans should listen to guys like Bush and McCain when it comes to immigration.

Did he suggest that an entire "race" of people are rapists? He said that the people who come here tend to not be the model citizens of Mexico, or whatever country they are coming from. When the age of consent is 12, as in most of Mexico, you would expect crimes of sexual assault to vary accordingly.

As for being natural Democrats, the poorer your are, the more likely you are to support the party of redistribution. Immigrants tend to be very poor. They also benefit from and support race-based handout programs, which Republicans oppose. Hispanic immigrants tend to oppose gun rights, too, because they come from chaotic countries where only police and criminals carry guns. These are natural Democrats. It therefore makes sense that Democrats want more of them. What does not make sense is why some Republicans would like our entire country's politics to resemble California's.

Immigrants are not allowed to vote, but they still sometimes manage to vote- which is why Republicans seek to "restrict voting rights," i.e. show a photo I.D., just as you have to do to get on an airplane or buy booze in most places. Democrats support illegal immigrants voting. Illegals also affect the size of congressional districts in a way that helps Democrats. Why do you think that half as many people voted in California's 46th district in 2012 than in California's 48th district?

As for bigger fences, normal countries enforce their borders: they are a fact of national independence. It is incredible that our government will pay for Israel's border fence (which works) but not our own.

The bottom line is that the U.S. cannot serve as the go-to place for everyone who has problems. Should the around 150 million people who want to come here be allowed to do so?

 

[GoIrish41]

Did he suggest that an entire "race" of people are rapists? He said that the people who come here tend to not be the model citizens of Mexico, or whatever country they are coming from. When the age of consent is 12, as in most of Mexico, you would expect crimes of sexual assault to vary accordingly.

As for being natural Democrats, the poorer your are, the more likely you are to support the party of redistribution. Immigrants tend to be very poor. They also benefit from and support race-based handout programs, which Republicans oppose. Hispanic immigrants tend to oppose gun rights, too, because they come from chaotic countries where only police and criminals carry guns. These are natural Democrats. It therefore makes sense that Democrats want more of them. What does not make sense is why some Republicans would like our entire country's politics to resemble California's.

Immigrants are not allowed to vote, but they still sometimes manage to vote- which is why Republicans seek to "restrict voting rights," i.e. show a photo I.D., just as you have to do to get on an airplane or buy booze in most places. Democrats support illegal immigrants voting. Illegals also affect the size of congressional districts in a way that helps Democrats. Why do you think that half as many people voted in California's 46th district in 2012 than in California's 48th district?

As for bigger fences, normal countries enforce their borders: they are a fact of national independence. It is incredible that our government will pay for Israel's border fence (which works) but not our own.

The bottom line is that the U.S. cannot serve as the go-to place for everyone who has problems. Should the around 150 million people who want to come here be allowed to do so?

Here is what he said. He didn't say that all Mexicans are rapists, so you are right. He did say that the ones who come here are rapists. Point taken, although he should also understand that Mexico isn't "sending" anyone. They are coming on their own to seek better lives.

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're sending people that have lots of problems. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists, and some, I assume, are good people."

Also, this nation was built on immigration. It is kind of our thing. It isn't about us accepting everyone who has problems. It is about being the land of opportunity. Visit the Statue of Liberty and read the inscription ... Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses ... Again, that has always been our deal and I would argue it is what made this country great. Israel is in a slightly different situation, as their neighbors attempt to bomb them with some regularity, so them "protecting their borders" has a lot more to do with actual protecting their citizens from hostility than people coming to find work in the land of milk and honey.

Voter suppression is wrong. Republicans are trying to limit the number of people who vote, and especially those who vote for Democrats. Immigration policy should have NOTHING to do with the political viability of one party or another. It belittles their claim to If you want more voters to vote for Republicans, Republicans should have better policiies. Addition by subtraction of voters is an offensive policy, and as the nation's minorities become a larger and larger percentage of the population, this becomes more and more important to them. They are making themselves irrelevant to the most rapidly growing portion of the population. That population is not growing because of immigration (because immigrants don't vote), it is growing the old fashioned way as large families are the norm in Latino families. If you want to be viable, it makes good sense to reach out to them, not alienate them by preventing their families from joining them.

 

[phgreek]

Here is what he said. He didn't say that all Mexicans are rapists, so you are right. He did say that the ones who come here are rapists. Point taken, although he should also understand that Mexico isn't "sending" anyone. They are coming on their own to seek better lives.

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're sending people that have lots of problems. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists, and some, I assume, are good people."

Also, this nation was built on immigration. It is kind of our thing. It isn't about us accepting everyone who has problems. It is about being the land of opportunity. Visit the Statue of Liberty and read the inscription ... Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses ... Again, that has always been our deal and I would argue it is what made this country great. Israel is in a slightly different situation, as their neighbors attempt to bomb them with some regularity, so them "protecting their borders" has a lot more to do with actual protecting their citizens from hostility than people coming to find work in the land of milk and honey.

Voter suppression is wrong. Republicans are trying to limit the number of people who vote, and especially those who vote for Democrats. Immigration policy should have NOTHING to do with the political viability of one party or another. It belittles their claim to If you want more voters to vote for Republicans, Republicans should have better policiies. Addition by subtraction of voters is an offensive policy, and as the nation's minorities become a larger and larger percentage of the population, this becomes more and more important to them. They are making themselves irrelevant to the most rapidly growing portion of the population. That population is not growing because of immigration (because immigrants don't vote), it is growing the old fashioned way as large families are the norm in Latino families. If you want to be viable, it makes good sense to reach out to them, not alienate them by preventing their families from joining them.

I would just say I'd prefer the discussion about this nation being one of immigrants be less conflated with illegal immigrants. To me, citing Ellis Island is a little off the mark here. The ONLY thing people who made it through the immigration process that went through Ellis Island have in common with illegal immigrants is the desire to be here...I'll leave it at that.

I believe voting is a right we enjoy as citizens. In order for it to mean what it should, it needs to be protected. I understand the concern for trusting government to build or oversee anything w/o injuring someone in the process...See ACA. However, I can't attain that "right" w/o proving who I am, so why do we care less about the integrity of voting?

 

[potownhero]

Here is what he said. He didn't say that all Mexicans are rapists, so you are right. He did say that the ones who come here are rapists. Point taken, although he should also understand that Mexico isn't "sending" anyone. They are coming on their own to seek better lives.

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're sending people that have lots of problems. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists, and some, I assume, are good people."

Also, this nation was built on immigration. It is kind of our thing. It isn't about us accepting everyone who has problems. It is about being the land of opportunity. Visit the Statue of Liberty and read the inscription ... Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses ... Again, that has always been our deal and I would argue it is what made this country great. Israel is in a slightly different situation, as their neighbors attempt to bomb them with some regularity, so them "protecting their borders" has a lot more to do with actual protecting their citizens from hostility than people coming to find work in the land of milk and honey.

Voter suppression is wrong. Republicans are trying to limit the number of people who vote, and especially those who vote for Democrats. Immigration policy should have NOTHING to do with the political viability of one party or another. It belittles their claim to If you want more voters to vote for Republicans, Republicans should have better policiies. Addition by subtraction of voters is an offensive policy, and as the nation's minorities become a larger and larger percentage of the population, this becomes more and more important to them. They are making themselves irrelevant to the most rapidly growing portion of the population. That population is not growing because of immigration (because immigrants don't vote), it is growing the old fashioned way as large families are the norm in Latino families. If you want to be viable, it makes good sense to reach out to them, not alienate them by preventing their families from joining them.

Note that this was all before we had a huge welfare state in place. So not apples to apples.

Also, many liberals find the term "melting pot" offensive and prefer the term "salad" where you maintain your cultural identity even though you may have come from a place where the culture fostered things that weren't necessarily the best for the civil society...

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Trump is a child.

Donald Trump just gave out Lindsey Graham's phone number.

 

[woolybug25]

Trump is a child.

Donald Trump just gave out Lindsey Graham's phone number.

This guy is still currently leading the Republican polls...

Sad world we live in...

 

[phgreek]

This guy is still currently leading the Republican polls...

Sad world we live in...

2 in 10 like Trump...thats analogous to crabs...ie he is going away

6 in 10 like Clinton...thats analogous to HIV...ie she is never going away and could kill us.

to me both are equally offensive candidates to lead this country...one is just a better politician.

 

[woolybug25]

2 in 10 like Trump...thats analogous to crabs...ie he is going away

6 in 10 like Clinton...thats analogous to HIV...ie she is never going away and could kill us.

to me both are equally offensive candidates to lead this country...one is just a better politician.

6 out of 10 people have HIV? Holy hell...

 

[phgreek]

6 out of 10 people have HIV? Holy hell...

I'm afraid it'll feel like it by 2020

 

[connor_in]

This guy is still currently leading the Republican polls...

Sad world we live in...

Do you honestly think he will be the GOP nominee? Or do you think that the more likely reason for this is that there are so many candidates who seem relatively similar spreading out the vote and Trump, being the most brash and outspoken, is pulling in the most disaffected and frustrated at this early point in the race?

Note also, that Walker is currently leading in Iowa by about 10 over Bush and Trump is tied for third with Carson like 0.2 behind them (per realclearpolitics)

 

[woolybug25]

Do you honestly think he will be the GOP nominee? Or do you think that the more likely reason for this is that there are so many candidates who seem relatively similar spreading out the vote and Trump, being the most brash and outspoken, is pulling in the most disaffected and frustrated at this early point in the race?

Note also, that Walker is currently leading in Iowa by about 10 over Bush and Trump is tied for third with Carson like 0.2 behind them (per realclearpolitics)

I do not think that he will ultimately be the candidate, never alluded to that. I just think it's scary that at any point in time, none the less after a) he called all immigrants rapists, b) said McCain wasn't a hero and c) gave out Graham's cell phone number, that people would consider him even a viable candidate. But yikes... the dude is leading polls still.

 

[connor_in]

I do not think that he will ultimately be the candidate, never alluded to that. I just think it's scary that at any point in time, none the less after a) he called all immigrants rapists, b) said McCain wasn't a hero and c) gave out Graham's cell phone number, that people would consider him even a viable candidate. But yikes... the dude is leading polls still.

Just to be certain, weren't those polls taken after a), but before b) (Saturday), and c) (today?)?

EDIT: Just to point out, I have ALWAYS found Trump to be a horrible person and dislike him as much now as when he was supporting HRC or even all the way back when he first started getting national attention before talking politics. I certainly hope he does not become the Republican nominee

 

[woolybug25]

Just to be certain, weren't those polls taken after a), but before b) (Saturday), and c) (today?)?

Today per the link above.

 

[connor_in]

Today per the link above.

I am sorry, but which link?

 

[woolybug25]

I am sorry, but which link?

Get your shit together, Conner...

Trump is a child.

Donald Trump just gave out Lindsey Graham's phone number.

 

[connor_in]

Get your shit together, Connor...

Oh, you are talking about the phone number thing! I thought you were referring to the poll, which is what I was thought you were referring to. If you are referring to the abc/wash post poll, then my post about after a, but before b & c was correct as per the methodology listing is was done 7/16-7/19


EDIT...fixed your post for ya

 

[woolybug25]

Oh, you are talking about the phone number thing! I thought you were referring to the poll, which is what I was thought you were referring to. If you are referring to the abc/wash post poll, then my post about after a, but before b & c was correct as per the methodology listing is was done 7/16-7/19


EDIT...fixed your post for ya

Dog Damnn it, Conner... read the damn article.

.@CBSNews can confirm that the number Trump just read out on stage in South Carolina is Lindsey Graham's cell number.

— DJ Judd (@juddzeez) July 21, 2015
Trump currently leads the GOP field in national polls.

If you follow the link, the poll is from 7/20. So yesterday.

I'm not gonna keep holding your hand here, bud...

 

[NDgradstudent]

Also, this nation was built on immigration. It is kind of our thing. It isn't about us accepting everyone who has problems. It is about being the land of opportunity. Visit the Statue of Liberty and read the inscription ... Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses ... Again, that has always been our deal and I would argue it is what made this country great. Israel is in a slightly different situation, as their neighbors attempt to bomb them with some regularity, so them "protecting their borders" has a lot more to do with actual protecting their citizens from hostility than people coming to find work in the land of milk and honey.

I don't regard the Emma Lazarus kitsch as dispositive of what we are all supposed to think about immigration. The idea that all immigrants are basically the same, and that current mass immigration will work as 'well' as it has in the past, is fanciful. It is like when our politicians compare every war to World War II, and every would-be enemy leader to Hitler. We believe them, and then we end up with the Vietnam and Iraq wars.

The main differences between the pre-1924 immigration waves and the post-1965 wave are these: (1) during the earlier waves of immigration, there was no gigantic welfare state; (2) it was not easy for an immigrant to communicate with his native country and/or return home, as it is now; and (3) the elites in our country had not adopted a 'multicultural' ethic that regards assimilation as 'ethnic cleansing.' The 1924 Immigration Act was widely supported, including by labor unions.

People say immigration 'made the country great,' but I don't really understand how that is so. In my view, what has made this country great is that it was founded by Englishmen. If you look around the world, you will notice that former British colonies tend to be successful international or regional powers, with relatively free institutions, no history of fascism, etc. (India, Canada, South Africa, Australia, and so on).

As for Israel, the people they are keeping out are economic migrants, not simply terrorists.

Immigration policy should have NOTHING to do with the political viability of one party or another.

Maybe not, but it does have a huge effect upon the political viability of one party or the other. We live in a democratic republic, so the character of the demos matters a great deal. In other countries, such as the U.K., left-wing parties endorse open borders specifically as a way to destroy conservative politics in those countries. Unable to elect a new government, they prefer to 'elect a new people' that is more amenable to their policies.

If you want more voters to vote for Republicans, Republicans should have better policiies.

There is no such thing as "better policies." There are policies which align with certain groups' interests, or not. Lots of Hispanics have lived in Southern California for a very long time. They came poor. They still tend to be poor. A majority have never voted for a Republican candidate for President, and probably never will. Their interests will always involve higher taxes, more welfare programs, race-based preferences, etc., which are against the interests of the Republican base.

Of course, mass immigration affects everyone, not just Republicans. Might California's drought and infrastructure problems be related to immigration in some way? Is there no limit to the amount of growth the state can sustain?

 

[Huntr]

Holy crap.

 

[connor_in]

Dog Damnn it, Connor... read the damn article.



If you follow the link, the poll is from 7/20. So yesterday.

I'm not gonna keep holding your hand here, bud...

poll was embargoed until 7/20...the article was from 7/20...follow the link...

http://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1170a22016Politics.pdf

page 2 of 14:

Trump’s support was 28 percent in this survey’s first three nights of polling. While the sample size of registered leaned Republicans on Sunday is quite small, he dropped to the single digits that day.

go to page 6 of 14

METHODOLOGY – This ABC News/Washington Post poll was conducted by landline and cellular telephone July 16-19, 2015, in English and Spanish, among a random national sample of 1,002 adults, including 815 registered voters

7/19 while it was sunday and the McCain thing was Saturday, how many people knew it. I did not hear it until Monday myself


EDIT: fixed your post for ya...again

 

[woolybug25]

I see ndgrad posted and i'm like

Not to mention, the always appreciated tilt of racism is ever present:

People say immigration 'made the country great,' but I don't really understand how that is so. In my view, what has made this country great is that it was founded by Englishmen.

ie - non anglo-saxon countries are lessor men. K, got it.

 

[EddytoNow]

...

People say immigration 'made the country great,' but I don't really understand how that is so. In my view, what has made this country great is that it was founded by Englishmen. If you look around the world, you will notice that former British colonies tend to be successful international or regional powers, with relatively free institutions, no history of fascism, etc. (India, Canada, South Africa, Australia, and so on)...

You've got to be kidding. England did nothing but exploit and subjugate every country it colonized, including the United States. A large part of the political unrest in the world is the direct result of European colonization, particular that of England. You should ask a few Irishmen, or Native Americans, or Black South Africans how much they appreciate the exploitation and often genocide comitted by the English. The troubles in the North of Ireland are the direct result of the colonization instituted by England. Much of the trouble in the Middle East today is the direct result of artificial boundaries drawn by England, boundaries that did not recognize ethnic tribal lands.

Any freedom or prosperity enjoyed by the native inhabitants of these countries was the result of driving the English out. If England were an individual it could be charged with millions of murders and the theft of multiple millions of dollars.

 

[Cackalacky]

 

[NDgradstudent]

I'll continue the immigration/England discussion in the politics thread.

 

[woolybug25]

I'll continue the immigration/England discussion in the politics thread.

please don't...

 

[GoIrish41]

please don't...

You know you are going to go read it, Wooly.

 

[GoldenDome]

hahaha

 

[Old Man Mike]

I never visit these threads because almost every other post is filled with prejudice, but I heard a long while ago a story of Trump meeting T. Boone Pickens. Maybe some will find it amusing if not enlightening.

Trump comes over to Pickens at some kind of expensive fund-raiser and says: what's the problem with the US getting a stable oil supply from those other countries anytime we want it? All we have to do is sit them down and TELL them what they are going to sell it to us for!!!

Pickens, stunned at the stupidity of this, but not taken aback, said back to Trump: Donald, I'll make you a deal. I'll stay out of the hotel business if you stay out of the energy business. Ted Turner who was sitting beside Pickens when he told the story, laughed. Neither had anything good to say about Trump ultimately going into politics.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

People say immigration 'made the country great,' but I don't really understand how that is so. In my view, what has made this country great is that it was founded by Englishmen.

Coming from a Catholic enrolled at ND, this is pretty rich. Ollie Cromwell would like a word.

 

[connor_in]

I was shocked to see this at Salon of all places.

It’s time to draft Al Gore: If Democrats want to win, it’s clear neither Hillary nor Sanders is the way - Salon.com