2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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IrishLax

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I agree totally with the bolded part, the standard Republican answer to foreign relations is to send somebody else's son or daughter over and blast the **** out of those foreigners. No thought appears to be given to the problems that policy has created for us over the last few decades. Nor do the Republicans comment on the regional politics involved in any action we want to take unilaterally. We destroyed what balance there was in the Middle East when we toppled Saddam Hussein and Iraq. Should we repeat that mistake?

Which is in direct contrast to what Democrats have done in power. Oh wait, of course it isn't.

Posts like this crack me the hell up given the Obama administration's long standing policy of blowing up everything in sight (including American citizens) with drone strikes.
 

Rhode Irish

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Which is in direct contrast to what Democrats have done in power. Oh wait, of course it isn't.

Posts like this crack me the hell up given the Obama administration's long standing policy of blowing up everything in sight (including American citizens) with drone strikes.

I'm not weighing in on the merits here, but drone strikes are obviously different than sending other people's sons and daughters to blow stuff up (because most drones are orphans).
 

IrishLax

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I'm not weighing in on the merits here, but drone strikes are obviously different than sending other people's sons and daughters to blow stuff up (because most drones are orphans).

This isn't Vietnam, there isn't compulsory service. When you have an all-volunteer army, that moral argument about sending someone's "sons and daughters" really doesn't hold much water at all. This is what they chose to do, and the overall casualty numbers in Iraq are low... it's like 3000 total people over a decade+

The real tragedy and loss of life is caused by us. And that doesn't change whether someone looks their "combatant" in the eye before they kill them, or if they bomb shit indiscriminately from miles away.
 

kmoose

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I'm not weighing in on the merits here, but drone strikes are obviously different than sending other people's sons and daughters to blow stuff up (because most drones are orphans).

Ok, can we please stop with the "other people's sons and daughters", tired old Vietnam era complaint? The reason it was a big deal in the 60s and 70s is that many, if not all, politicians' kids were getting draft deferments, if they wanted them. So there was outrage that politicians were sending other people's sons and daughters(against their will, in many cases) off to fight a war, while protecting their own children with deferments.

This military is an all-volunteer military, so this line of protest carries no weight anymore.
 

GoIrish41

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I would love to see a smaller debate between Kasich, Carson, Paul, Bush, and Fiorina.

I am so tired of the Trump show and I hope after last night he begins to fall in the polls. His entire shtick is to stand on the corner and yell into a bullhorn what all the problems are. Solutions? He has none that are viable.

Unfortunately, that's what a lot of people thought after the last debate ... before he gained in the polls.
 

pkt77242

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This isn't Vietnam, there isn't compulsory service. When you have an all-volunteer army, that moral argument about sending someone's "sons and daughters" really doesn't hold much water at all. This is what they chose to do, and the overall casualty numbers in Iraq are low... it's like 3000 total people over a decade+

The real tragedy and loss of life is caused by us. And that doesn't change whether someone looks their "combatant" in the eye before they kill them, or if they bomb shit indiscriminately from miles away.

By 2011 we had almost 4500 soldiers who died in Iraq, and over 30,000 injured in action. That does not count things like PTSD, and other injuries that can happen to a soldier.
 

GoIrish41

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This isn't Vietnam, there isn't compulsory service. When you have an all-volunteer army, that moral argument about sending someone's "sons and daughters" really doesn't hold much water at all. This is what they chose to do, and the overall casualty numbers in Iraq are low... it's like 3000 total people over a decade+

The real tragedy and loss of life is caused by us. And that doesn't change whether someone looks their "combatant" in the eye before they kill them, or if they bomb shit indiscriminately from miles away.

Really? I would argue that the moral argument does not change one iota because it is a volunteer Army. Whether they volunteered or were forced into service, the commander in chief better have a really good reason for putting them in harm's way. I have discouraged my son from entering the military after W. ginned up a war that "only 3000" young men and women died fighting for no good reason. But, some don't have the options that my son has and they will join the military because there is no other paths to college, or to a better life.
 

GoIrish41

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What's not viable about his idea to impose tariffs on companies who move their manufacturing jobs overseas?

Violate of existing trade agreements. I don't dislike the idea of tarriffs, but this is the reason why the Democrats in Congress did not want to support Obama on his latest trade deal in Asia.
 
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kmoose

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Viol of existing trade agreements. I don't dislike the idea of tarriffs, but this is the reason why the Democrats in Congress did not want to support Obama on his latest trade deal in Asia.

What section of what trade agreement do they violate?

And trade agreements can always be renegotiated.

Or just voided with an Executive Order. :wink:
 

IrishLax

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Really? I would argue that the moral argument does not change one iota because it is a volunteer Army. Whether they volunteered or were forced into service, the commander in chief better have a really good reason for putting them in harm's way. I have discouraged my son from entering the military after W. ginned up a war that "only 3000" young men and women died fighting for no good reason. But, some don't have the options that my son has and they will join the military because there is no other paths to college, or to a better life.

In your opinion, the moral argument whether someone is conscripted under penalty of law to enter a war zone as cannon fodder is no different than whether someone volunteers for combat knowing full well the risks involved?

And you can easily join a non-combat division of the military so I don't even know what you're talking about in the last sentence. Even if joining to military to get on the GI Bill was your only option in life (impossible... but let's play out the hypothetical) you could sign up to be a cook on a boat or a myriad of other roles besides combat infantry.
 

woolybug25

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In your opinion, the moral argument whether someone is conscripted under penalty of law to enter a war zone as cannon fodder is no different than whether someone volunteers for combat knowing full well the risks involved?

And you can easily join a non-combat division of the military so I don't even know what you're talking about in the last sentence. Even if joining to military to get on the GI Bill was your only option in life (impossible... but let's play out the hypothetical) you could sign up to be a cook on a boat or a myriad of other roles besides combat infantry.

I wont speak for those in the military, so I hope someone in the service can verify, but what you tell your recruiter you want to do when you sign up and what they assign you to can often be drastically different.

My friend went into the Army wanting to go into surveying. He ended up on the ground in Afghanistan.
 

GoIrish41

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In your opinion, the moral argument whether someone is conscripted under penalty of law to enter a war zone as cannon fodder is no different than whether someone volunteers for combat knowing full well the risks involved?

And you can easily join a non-combat division of the military so I don't even know what you're talking about in the last sentence. Even if joining to military to get on the GI Bill was your only option in life (impossible... but let's play out the hypothetical) you could sign up to be a cook on a boat or a myriad of other roles besides combat infantry.

I would say it is no different for the commander in chief or the commanders in the field who is making the decision to risk the lives of young men and women. You might argue that the act of volunteering removes the moral authority of the individual from the equasion, but I'd argue that there are reasons other than patriotism and willingness to risk one's life that compells them to join the military. Some (many or most, perhaps) do so much less out of a desire to serve than they do out of a nessessity -- escape a difficult life in an inner city, take care of family members, ticket to college. Heck, back in the day, judges used to compel young men to join the military or go to prison, for breaking laws.

I'm not sure why you think anybody has the ability to decide what they are going to be doing or where they are going to be doing it once he/she joins the military. A soldier is a soldier first, before they are a cook, a medic, or a barber, or a radio operator. The sailors who were cooks on the USS Cole were blown up just like the gunners. Who joins the military with a guarantee that they will not have to fight? The Department of Defense puts you where they need you -- they don't ask your opinion. For any indiividual member of the military, there is no such thing as a "non-combat" division, because virtually nobody goes to work at Fort Eustis in Newport News Virginia, or Naval Base San Diego, or Camp Pendleton California without the possibility of being in Afghanistan a month later with bullets flying.

A young man gives up his rights to make many decisions for himself when he signs on the dotted line. I have spent the last 27 years working for the Department of Defense, both on active duty and as a civilian, and your thoughts about how the military works makes ME wonder what YOU are talking about. W. sent thousands of young men and women to their deaths to fight a war that should never have happened. I don't want some jackass like him to have that kind of authority and control over my son. And most other people don't either. Indeed, the 1% who have little other choice are those that end up making the ultimate saccrifice. Those who have options will more than likely take them.
 
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GoIrish41

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I wont speak for those in the military, so I hope someone in the service can verify, but what you tell your recruiter you want to do when you sign up and what they assign you to can often be drastically different.

My friend went into the Army wanting to go into surveying. He ended up on the ground in Afghanistan.

This is absolutely correct Wooly.
 

kmoose

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I wont speak for those in the military, so I hope someone in the service can verify, but what you tell your recruiter you want to do when you sign up and what they assign you to can often be drastically different.

My friend went into the Army wanting to go into surveying. He ended up on the ground in Afghanistan.

This is absolutely correct Wooly.

That's NOT absolutely correct. It can be accurate in some circumstances, but I would say it is not the norm. When you enlist, you sign a contract. If you score a point or two above "dead rotting corpse" on the tests, you can generally have a plethora of jobs that you contract to go into. The higher you score, the more jobs are available to you. In some(but not all) of those cases, if you cannot be put into the job that you contracted for; you can select another job that you are qualified for, or you can allow the service to just pick a job for you, or you can terminate your service without prejudice. I'm not tapped into the Recruiting Commands, but I would venture to say that probably less than 3% of the people who enlist, do so without some kind of "guaranteed" training. I use quotes on "guaranteed" because that training COULD be taken away. Some of the reasons why it might be taken away include getting into a serious disciplinary situation before you have completed said training; failing a required physical test for said training, or being denied a requisite security clearance for said training.
 

woolybug25

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That's NOT absolutely correct. It can be accurate in some circumstances, but I would say it is not the norm. When you enlist, you sign a contract. If you score a point or two above "dead rotting corpse" on the tests, you can generally have a plethora of jobs that you contract to go into. The higher you score, the more jobs are available to you. In some(but not all) of those cases, if you cannot be put into the job that you contracted for; you can select another job that you are qualified for, or you can allow the service to just pick a job for you, or you can terminate your service without prejudice. I'm not tapped into the Recruiting Commands, but I would venture to say that probably less than 3% of the people who enlist, do so without some kind of "guaranteed" training. I use quotes on "guaranteed" because that training COULD be taken away. Some of the reasons why it might be taken away include getting into a serious disciplinary situation before you have completed said training; failing a required physical test for said training, or being denied a requisite security clearance for said training.

I'll have to talk to my buddy, but he scored very high on his ASVAB, was a great HS student and never got into any trouble. He was also physically fit with no medical issues. So i'm not sure how he slipped through the cracks.
 

RDU Irish

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Debate points -

Can't believe Trump isn't being completely shredded over the "vaccines cause autism" thing. Carson and Paul missed a huge chance and really muddled over a response. F-ing incredible (now I will wait while the same climate alarmists defend Jenny McCarthy's scientific expertise.)

Fiorina is damn impressive out there. Don't like her but respect her debate skills. What a great attack dog she would make as VP candidate. Something like Kasich/Fiorina would allow him to stay positive while Fiorina completely emasculates the entire democratic party.

Really is something that half of the vote favors non-politicians. I would be interested to see a poll of first five in versus first five out. You know Donald would be in both. How the rest stack up would be interesting.

Anyone else think Christie won't stop until 80% of the world population is in jail? Why can't anyone ever respond to the War on Drugs with illustrative examples like suburban house wives go to rehab while minorities go to jail and it is plain wrong. Christie also laments about nervous looks at airplanes overhead after 9/11 as an excuse to ASAP find someone to punch in the mouth. Yeah, emotional reaction to real conflict sounds like just the guy I want answering the batphone.

My cousin was in the Des Moines focus group on CNN, total surprise when I turned over there and she was in the middle of a fairly long response to her take on the debate.


First Five in: Fiorina, Kasich, Walker, Rubio, Jeb
First Five out: Trump, Christie, Huckabee, Cruz, Carson

Paul probably should be out - don't see him getting the traction needed to make a push or who he would be taking votes from. His politics really don't line up with hard core Republicans. He is screwed.
 

pkt77242

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Debate points -

Can't believe Trump isn't being completely shredded over the "vaccines cause autism" thing. Carson and Paul missed a huge chance and really muddled over a response. F-ing incredible (now I will wait while the same climate alarmists defend Jenny McCarthy's scientific expertise.)

Fiorina is damn impressive out there. Don't like her but respect her debate skills. What a great attack dog she would make as VP candidate. Something like Kasich/Fiorina would allow him to stay positive while Fiorina completely emasculates the entire democratic party.

Really is something that half of the vote favors non-politicians. I would be interested to see a poll of first five in versus first five out. You know Donald would be in both. How the rest stack up would be interesting.

Anyone else think Christie won't stop until 80% of the world population is in jail? Why can't anyone ever respond to the War on Drugs with illustrative examples like suburban house wives go to rehab while minorities go to jail and it is plain wrong. Christie also laments about nervous looks at airplanes overhead after 9/11 as an excuse to ASAP find someone to punch in the mouth. Yeah, emotional reaction to real conflict sounds like just the guy I want answering the batphone.

My cousin was in the Des Moines focus group on CNN, total surprise when I turned over there and she was in the middle of a fairly long response to her take on the debate.


First Five in: Fiorina, Kasich, Walker, Rubio, Jeb
First Five out: Trump, Christie, Huckabee, Cruz, Carson

Paul probably should be out - don't see him getting the traction needed to make a push or who he would be taking votes from. His politics really don't line up with hard core Republicans. He is screwed.

Nope she is an idiot.
 

RDU Irish

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If I had to pick one of those people to be President today, it would probably be Kasich. While Walker and Paul are more in line with my ideology, I think Kasich has the depth of experience needed to actually get some big issues tackled effectively. As a candidate he is even better, hard not to like the guy.
 

RDU Irish

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Had Carson said "Well Donald, I didn't realize you had Jenny McCarthy as part of your inner circle for intellectual reasons - you might want to look into that one a bit closer because you are dead wrong and doing a disservice to public health for perpetuating that ridiculous myth?"

The fact the whole exchange isn't mentioned anywhere baffles me, especially since it falls in line with the flat-earth republican BS.
 

woolybug25

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don't you wish....

200.gif
 

GoIrish41

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Had Carson said "Well Donald, I didn't realize you had Jenny McCarthy as part of your inner circle for intellectual reasons - you might want to look into that one a bit closer because you are dead wrong and doing a disservice to public health for perpetuating that ridiculous myth?"

The fact the whole exchange isn't mentioned anywhere baffles me, especially since it falls in line with the flat-earth republican BS.

In fairness, there was a whole lot of stupid shit said last night ... Maybe too much for a single new cycle. :)
 
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