2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Polish Leppy 22]

It is a fluff question in the same way as "Why do you want to be President?" is a fluff question. That simple question cost Ted Kennedy his 1980 presidential aspirations. Ted Kennedy: The Day the Presidency Was Lost - ABC News

I would have been impressed with anyone who spoke about helping the working poor, or bridging the racial divide, or seeking a way to bring medical costs down in this country while prividing wider (even universal) healthcare. I'd have been impressed with an embrace of settled climate science and a path forward to begin combatting it before we are faced with catastrophe. I'd have been impressed with a strategy that would end our dependence on foreign oil so that we can finally let the Middle East continue their ancient conflicts without U.S. intervention and loss of life. I would have liked to hear how they would approach the income disparity in this country and the shrinking of the middle class while the wealthiest among us continue to rake in money at the expense of the American worker. I'd have like to hear more than just a passing talking point about how "I will create jobs" and an explanation about how that is going to happen when corporations keep shipping the best paying jobs overseas to the lowest bidder. I would have liked to hear something about closing corporate loopholes that allow them to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. I would be impressed with a mention of closing "for profit" prisons and the urgency to fill them with non-violent offenders due to the war on drugs.

There are literally a hundred things that I would have been more impressed with than, "Build up the military so nobody will mess with the U.S.A., flex our muscle, and grab the mantle of leadership in the world (because the world is better when we are calling the shots)." Forget that that is one of the primary contributors to many of the problems that we face today beyond out borders. What I heard was the same old bullshit policies I've been hearing from republicans for the past three or four decades, repeated shamelessly in the face of a lifetime of evidence that they do not work. I might have been impressed by almost anything else they could have said to answer the question, "What would the country look like after your presidency?".

And before my conservative friends jump on me for expecting them to talk about "Democrat" issues at a Republican debate, let me point out that their lack of focus on these issues is why none of these candidates will be the president. They are simply not in touch with what is important to typical citizens of this country. Until these issue also become things that republicans care about, they will continue to lose national elections.

Let's keep it simple.

1) This debate wasn't for you. You wouldn't vote for any one of them in any scenario.

2) Of all the issues you cried about, the government either cannot or (Constitutionally) should not be intervening to solve the problem.

 

[GoldenDome]

Let me add this up: I admit I don't know what a wall would cost, but the idea is WORTH exploring. You supposedly know everything about anything, but can't tell me which would cost more between building a wall vs long term illegal immigration.

Got it.

Build a wall will do nothing. They will find a way to over it or under it. Complete waste of money if you ask me.

I say suffocate the hands that are feeding them. No government benefits for illegals and holding employers responsible for hiring and paying them.

Hasta last vista, baby.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Build a wall will do nothing. They will find a way to over it or under it. Complete waste of money if you ask me.

I say suffocate the hands that are feeding them. No government benefits for illegals and holding employers responsible for hiring and paying them.

Hasta last vista, baby.

Whoa, sounds like a conservative idea.

The wall: we don't know how successful or unsuccessful it will be. It's a huge unknown, but wouldn't you agree it would be better than what we have? And here is what we DO know.

Does it cost more to keep unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. -- or deport them? - Fortune

And according to a 2011 report by FAIR, undocumented immigrants cost U.S. and state governments $113 billion a year in welfare programs. The report argues that immigrants use more welfare programs than people born in the United States.

 

[woolybug25]

Let me add this up: I admit I don't know what a wall would cost, but the idea is WORTH exploring. You supposedly know everything about anything, but can't tell me which would cost more between building a wall vs long term illegal immigration.

Got it.

- You said it was cheaper. You did that, not me. I told you that you don't know that or even remotely understand what would go into it. Now I'm a now it all. "Got it".

- I never said that I knew the costs, in fact, I said the opposite. That no one knows that cost, because again... eminent domain, the cost of litigation with native peoples, building unknown structures through lakes, rivers & mountains. But we do know this... That is a lot more than simply addressing laws.

- Honestly, I am not sure why I engaged with someone like you. I have never seen any original thought from you regarding politics. Always the same garbage spin of whatever the flavor of the week for the right wing is at the time. Zero independent thought.

 

[GoIrish41]

Absolutely. We were specifically talking about the Iraq conflict. Should shit hit the fan at any given moment, the paradigm completely changes.

We were not specifically talking about Iraq. We were talking about the moral authority of commanders in chief to use volunteer military forces in general however they saw fit and whether or not that was ok. In fact your argument has morphed a little with each post. From they volunteered so suck it up, to soldiers being able to choose jobs that would keep them out of harms way to preposterous declarative statements about how there s no chance that a person who chose a certain career field would ever be involved in an armed conflict, to "I'm not talking about the army or marines, to accusing people of insisting on arguing about straw an arguments, to industrial jobs in the United States are more dangerous than being on the front lines of an ongoing war. So to bring it back on point, commanders have a sacred duty to not put their troops in harms way without a very compelling reason -- whether they were some poor ignorant slob who enlisted to put food on his family's table or to make a better life for himself or if they were the sons of Senators. Fun fact, people who have spent their whole lives serving may know more than you about such things. There is no shame in that, but you have said things in your last several posts that are laughable inaccurate and offensive to people who had close friends among the acceptable 3700 or so people who lost their lives in stupid, meaningless conflicts because dipshit politicians misused their moral authority. We don't even have to talk about the thousands whose lives are forever altered because they suffered crippling injuries or unspeakable mental anguish as a result of this misuse of our armed forces. You have demonstrated a knack for using Google and absolutely zero understanding about how the military works in real life. But feel free to believe you know it all. I will not argue with you on this topic any further.

 

[Bluto]

Building a wall across the southern border? Here's some numbers and other factors to consider.

A standard 6' high steel fence built at prevailing wage rates in Southern California runs about $100 per linear foot.

Negotiating the easements and doing title research on the land parcels would take at least 5-10 years.

Negotiating construction access would take several years.

Construction would take at least a decade

You would not only wall off Mexico but rather large swaths of land that serve as wildlife corridors throughout the various ecosystems found along the Southern Border.

You would also impact the hydrology of untold watersheds and modeling those impacts would take at least 5 years. Then you would possibly have to negotiate with private land owners over that.

You'd probably have to do seismic studies, wind shear studies and modeling for individual sections, geo-tech exploration based on the different soil types...

Then once built it would have to be maintained, repaired and upgraded forever.

So there's a list off the top of my head.

 

[GoIrish41]

Let me add this up: I admit I don't know what a wall would cost, but the idea is WORTH exploring. You supposedly know everything about anything, but can't tell me which would cost more between building a wall vs long term illegal immigration.

Got it.

How long does this exploration take, because republicans have been talking about it for decades and we are no closer to any answers. Still, there are presidential candidates claiming it is THE answer. How much will it cost to deport 11 million people? What kind of hit will our economy take if that happens. How much will food prices rise? Things that are practical are worth exploring. Building a giant wall like we are re-enacting Game of Thrones is a stupid GOP talking point that won't die.

 

[GoIrish41]

Let's keep it simple.

1) This debate wasn't for you. You wouldn't vote for any one of them in any scenario.

2) Of all the issues you cried about, the government either cannot or (Constitutionally) should not be intervening to solve the problem.

And that is why the Republican Party sucks at winning national elections and becomes a little closer to irrelevance each cycle.

 

[wizards8507]

China built a wall over six times the length of the Mexican border with medieval technology and your argument is that the most technologically advanced civilization the world has ever seen couldn't pull it off? Give me a break. I'm not saying there aren't other valid criticisms but "we can't do it" is bullshit. We put man on the freaking moon but a long ass wall is beyond us.

 

[GoldenDome]

Whoa, sounds like a conservative idea.

The wall: we don't know how successful or unsuccessful it will be. It's a huge unknown, but wouldn't you agree it would be better than what we have? And here is what we DO know.

Does it cost more to keep unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. -- or deport them? - Fortune

And according to a 2011 report by FAIR, undocumented immigrants cost U.S. and state governments $113 billion a year in welfare programs. The report argues that immigrants use more welfare programs than people born in the United States.

I am very with the right on this issue. I am for a pathway to citizenship for existing illegals right now who obey laws and are without a violent crime record. But I have seen illegal immigrants be provided uncanny benefits that far exceed some of my relatives who work full time jobs with modest benefits. It is crazy to me that an illegal can get better benefits than a person who pays for health insurance here in SoCal.

I am not for deportation unless they have violent criminal histories. I actual like Ben Carsons guest worker status idea, too bad I disagree with him on other issues.

Suffocate the benefits and hold employers accountable is my solution. They come for the money and benefits and a wall will not stop them so long as these luxuries are being provided. There is money to be made for "coyotes" and people literally pay them $5000 to get them across the border. I don't think a wall is the solution when you can easily tunnel or go climb the fence.

 

[kmoose]

I'll have to talk to my buddy, but he scored very high on his ASVAB, was a great HS student and never got into any trouble. He was also physically fit with no medical issues. So i'm not sure how he slipped through the cracks.

His MOS is one that could very well be deployed to a combat zone. If he had signed up to be a 27D (Paralegal Specialist), he wouldn't likely have seen a combat zone if he had stayed in 20 years.

 

[GATTACA!]

How long does this exploration take, because republicans have been talking about it for decades and we are no closer to any answers. Still, there are presidential candidates claiming it is THE answer. How much will it cost to deport 11 million people? What kind of by will our economy take if that happens. How much will for prices rise? Things that are practical are worth exploring. Building a giant wall like we are re-enacting Game of Thrones is a stupid GOP talking point that won't die.

Are you kidding me? I think we should build a huge wall, then give our incarcerated citizens the option of taking the black.

Boom solves two problems at once.

 

[woolybug25]

China built a wall over six times the length of the Mexican border with medieval technology and your argument is that the most technologically advanced civilization the world has ever seen couldn't pull it off? Give me a break. I'm not saying there aren't other valid criticisms but "we can't do it" is bullshit. We put man on the freaking moon but a long ass wall is beyond us.

They built theirs with soldiers, forcibly-recruited peasants, convicts, and POWs. The main section took 20 years and the entirety took almost 200 years.

It also was breached by invaders when the Ming dynasty fell.

Not exactly a great example.

 

[IrishLax]

We were not specifically talking about Iraq. We were talking about the moral authority of commanders in chief to use volunteer military forces in general however they saw fit and whether or not that was ok. In fact your argument has morphed a little with each post. From they volunteered so suck it up, to soldiers being able to choose jobs that would keep them out of harms way to preposterous declarative statements about how there s no chance that a person who chose a certain career field would ever be involved in an armed conflict, to "I'm not talking about the army or marines, to accusing people of insisting on arguing about straw an arguments, to industrial jobs in the United States are more dangerous than being on the front lines of an ongoing war. So to bring it back on point, commanders have a sacred duty to not put their troops in harms way without a very compelling reason -- whether they were some poor ignorant slob who enlisted to put food on his family's table or to make a better life for himself or if they were the sons of Senators. Fun fact, people who have spent their whole lives serving may know more than you about such things. There is no shame in that, but you have said things in your last several posts that are laughable inaccurate and offensive to people who had close friends among the acceptable 3700 or so people who lost their lives in stupid, meaningless conflicts because dipshit politicians misused their moral authority. We don't even have to talk about the thousands whose lives are forever altered because they suffered crippling injuries or unspeakable mental anguish as a result of this misuse of our armed forces. You have demonstrated a knack for using Google and absolutely zero understanding about how the military works in real life. But feel free to believe you know it all. I will not argue with you on this topic any further.

Holy fuck dude give it a rest. This whole chain starts off Eddy bolding your comment on the Middle East in #2315, which is quoted in my #2321, and then from #2324 downward people specifically contrasted Vietnam to the Iraq conflict. At no point were we talking about anything but current Middle East conflicts.

Didn't even read the rest of your post. You're making a fool of yourself, whereas I've used numbers and facts that you can't refute. And I'm intimately familiar with the military... I've talked about my first job out of school many times on this site. I worked on the border, and then spent almost 2 years working in that realm running multiple contracts for SPAWAR, MARCORLOGOCOM/MCLC/MCLOGS (they could never decide exactly what they wanted to be called), every Guard branch, EUCOM, etc. I've been on bases around the world, and I quit just before getting sent to Afghanistan.

So pop off with your lack of facts, reason, and general ignorance. It's really annoying.

 

[IrishLax]

China built a wall over six times the length of the Mexican border with medieval technology and your argument is that the most technologically advanced civilization the world has ever seen couldn't pull it off? Give me a break. I'm not saying there aren't other valid criticisms but "we can't do it" is bullshit. We put man on the freaking moon but a long ass wall is beyond us.

A physical wall is a huge waste of money. It's been studied extensively. I worked on the SBINet project for a long time, and while that was a failure (I think, dunno if they ever fixed the issues but it got way over scope and Boeing had no idea what they were doing when it was wrapping up) it was at least heading in the right direction. Surveillance is the most cost-effective method of policing the border.

 

[wizards8507]

They built theirs with soldiers, forcibly-recruited peasants, convicts, and POWs.

Perfect. Half italics.

The main section took 20 years and the entirety took almost 200 years.

I'd rather have a wall in 2036 than never. Also, we're working with a lot more than medieval technology.

It also was breached by invaders when the Ming dynasty fell.

We're not trying to keep out an army, we're trying to keep out individual invaders. Further, the Ming dynasty didn't have drone surveillance.

 

[wizards8507]

A physical wall is a huge waste of money. It's been studied extensively. I worked on the SBINet project for a long time, and while that was a failure (I think, dunno if they ever fixed the issues but it got way over scope and Boeing had no idea what they were doing when it was wrapping up) it was at least heading in the right direction. Surveillance is the most cost-effective method of policing the border.

Like I said, there are legitimate arguments against the wall. "It's impossible" is the only one I'm rejecting on its face.

 

[IrishLax]

Building a wall across the southern border? Here's some numbers and other factors to consider.

A standard 6' high steel fence built at prevailing wage rates in Southern California runs about $100 per linear foot.

Negotiating the easements and doing title research on the land parcels would take at least 5-10 years.

Negotiating construction access would take several years.

Construction would take at least a decade

You would not only wall off Mexico but rather large swaths of land that serve as wildlife corridors throughout the various ecosystems found along the Southern Border.

You would also impact the hydrology of untold watersheds and modeling those impacts would take at least 5 years. Then you would possibly have to negotiate with private land owners over that.

You'd probably have to do seismic studies, wind shear studies and modeling for individual sections, geo-tech exploration based on the different soil types...

Then once built it would have to be maintained, repaired and upgraded forever.

So there's a list off the top of my head.

The bolded is one of the biggest issues people don't consider. I know some people don't care about animals or whatever, but at least in Arizona where I worked there were lots of endangered species that building walls and such could impact. Specifically, pronghorns. Every day we went out to a tower site they had a Government conservationist/biologist/whatever with us, and if we were going to be disturbing certain animals they'd literally cancel work for the day.

Anyways, building a wall is stupid and a waste of money. That being said, I think we ended up spending about $2 billion on the SBINet project... sooo... it's not like the surveillance alternative was cheap.

 

[GoIrish41]

Holy fuck dude give it a rest. This whole chain starts off Eddy bolding your comment on the Middle East in #2315, which is quoted in my #2321, and then from #2324 downward people specifically contrasted Vietnam to the Iraq conflict. At no point were we talking about anything but current Middle East conflicts.

Didn't even read the rest of your post. You're making a fool of yourself, whereas I've used numbers and facts that you can't refute. And I'm intimately familiar with the military... I've talked about my first job out of school many times on this site. I worked on the border, and then spent almost 2 years working in that realm running multiple contracts for SPAWAR, MARCORLOGOCOM/MCLC/MCLOGS (they could never decide exactly what they wanted to be called), every Guard branch, EUCOM, etc. I've been on bases around the world, and I quit just before getting sent to Afghanistan.

So pop off with your lack of facts, reason, and general ignorance. It's really annoying.

You were a fucking contractor working on military bases. And you are an expert. You are the one making a fucking fool of yourself, arguing about how the military works with a guy whose been in and working for the military since you were still pissing your bed.

And your facts are not relevant to the topic. Who gives a fuck how dangerous construction jobs are? It had nothing to do with the conversation, at all! You might have just posted minor league baseball statistics.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

- You said it was cheaper. You did that, not me. I told you that you don't know that or even remotely understand what would go into it. Now I'm a now it all. "Got it".

- I never said that I knew the costs, in fact, I said the opposite. That no one knows that cost, because again... eminent domain, the cost of litigation with native peoples, building unknown structures through lakes, rivers & mountains. But we do know this... That is a lot more than simply addressing laws.

- Honestly, I am not sure why I engaged with someone like you. I have never seen any original thought from you regarding politics. Always the same garbage spin of whatever the flavor of the week for the right wing is at the time. Zero independent thought.

Such a tough guy. Show me where I said it was cheaper. That's right...I didn't. I asked YOU what would cost more in the long run: building a wall or staying on the same path we're on now?

 

[connor_in]

Someone wanna lock this for a couple days for people to calm down?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

And that is why the Republican Party sucks at winning national elections and becomes a little closer to irrelevance each cycle.

2010 and 2012 say hello. Carry on.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

How long does this exploration take, because republicans have been talking about it for decades and we are no closer to any answers. Still, there are presidential candidates claiming it is THE answer. How much will it cost to deport 11 million people? What kind of by will our economy take if that happens. How much will for prices rise? Things that are practical are worth exploring. Building a giant wall like we are re-enacting Game of Thrones is a stupid GOP talking point that won't die.

My guess is as long as it takes Democrats to admit they don't give a damn about any immigrants and are just offering free everything to get their votes.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Someone wanna lock this for a couple days for people to calm down?

Don't lock the thread down, but our buddy GoIrish41 could use some fresh air and a walk around the neighborhood. Guy is the only one dropping the F bomb every 5 words.

 

[GoIrish41]

Don't lock the thread down, but our buddy GoIrish41 could use some fresh air and a walk around the neighborhood. Guy is the only one dropping the F bomb every 5 words.

Fuck off Leppy!

 

[woolybug25]

Such a tough guy. Show me where I said it was cheaper. That's right...I didn't. I asked YOU what would cost more in the long run: building a wall or staying on the same path we're on now?

If it's not cheaper than than an equally effective measure then why in the hell would we build it?

 

[wizards8507]

If it's not cheaper than than an equally effective measure then why in the hell would we build it?

Neither "cheaper" nor "equally effective" have been fully explored.

Regardless, this is a winning issue for Republicans because the official Democrat platform is basically "illegal immigration is kewl." Of course, Jeb will be the nominee and Karl Rove will tell him not to talk about it because it'll piss off Hispanics.

 

[IrishLax]

You were a fucking contractor working on military bases. And you are an expert. You are the one making a fucking fool of yourself, arguing wth a guy about how the military works with a guy whose been in and working for the military since you were still pissing your bed.

And your facts are not relevant to the topic. Who gives a fuck how dangerous construction jobs are? It had nothing to do with the conversation, at all! You might have just posted minor league baseball statistics.

It doesn't take 20 years to understand how the military works. What takes more than a couple months to learn about the military? Seriously, explain to me anything in the military that you need YEARS to understand?

You don't think my fiance's company has to understand exactly how recruiting works to run all of the Guard's advertisement? You don't think my company had to understand how the military works to run all of their logistics? Or base infrastructure? Or staffing for the roles we're talking about? Plus, 90% of people at my company were active guard member or reservists. And the business was a SDVOSB.

So when I point out that being KIA in Iraq as part of the Navy/Air Force is no more likely than the risk of driving a fucking car around, it makes you look RIDICULOUS to talk about "sacred duty to not put their troops in harms way." Right... something no more dangerous than what we allow a 16 year olds do as part of normal society... oh, the danger!

I'm sorry that numbers are "offensive" to you. That's really sad that objective statistics cause an emotional reaction. The entire point of all of this -- that I painstakingly clarified dozens of posts ago to wooly to clear up any possible initial confusion -- was that there IS a "safe" way to be in the military if that's what you want to do, and that to end up in a high casualty situation (i.e. Marines or Army) you had to sign up for one of those branches.

But sure, keep living in your ignorant bubble where a 100% volunteer military is somehow an unethical death machine where evil Republicans con poor, disadvantaged people with "no other options" into service where they don't understand the risks and will meet their demise. It's abundantly clear that there is no point in discussing this with you and this will be my last post on the topic because as hilarious as this is, it's also tiresome at this point.

 

[IrishLax]

Don't lock the thread down, but our buddy GoIrish41 could use some fresh air and a walk around the neighborhood. Guy is the only one dropping the F bomb every 5 words.

GoIrish is fine. Just impassioned. No one is locking the thread, and no one is at any risk of getting warned/banned.

In a week I'll probably read this back and feel like a dummy and apologize....

Maybe

 

[GoIrish41]

Neither "cheaper" nor "equally effective" have been fully explored.

Regardless, this is a winning issue for Republicans because the official Democrat platform is basically "illegal immigration is kewl." Of course, Jeb will be the nominee and Karl Rove will tell him not to talk about it because it'll piss off Hispanics.

and you think that is bad advice?