2016 Fall Camp Thread

[ND Fan Vancouver]

Neither Ertz nor Fleener had Eifert's athleticism either, but they both produced big time for Stanford and were early round draft picks.

Totally. Good insight!

 

[Irish Insanity]

2015:

Bryant out, Procise gets praised...

Folston out, Adams gets praised...

Zaire out, Kizer gets praised...

I think the fair thing to say is that you can't read too much into it at this point, but I don't think its necessarily just sunshine.

Promise, played well
Adams played well
Kizer played well

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Promise, played well
Adams played well
Kizer played well

That was his point!

 

[Luckylucci]

If Eifert-level athleticism is the bar, few (Alize Jones maybe) are ever going to clear it. But that doesn't mean we can't have more productivity out of the tight end spot than we have the last couple of years. If Weishar develops into a guy who can make some catches in tight spaces that'd be just fine.

Yea, I'm not sure where this idea came from that they had to be Eifert in order to be successful. Eifert was (statistically) the best TE EVER at ND, there are levels of success between him and CFB Playoff quality, that is realistic and expected. Both Smythe and Weishar were big time recruits. There is absolutely zero reason that we should look at those guys as scrubs or not expect them to produce at a clip that helps win ball games.

 

[woolybug25]

My apologies. What can I say? I'm Canadian Eh? If you were here I'd buy you a beer.
Go Irish!

That's very honourable of you...

Really showing your true colours.

 

[arrowryan]

So Mike Frank thinks that if our TEs don't compare to the best ND tight end in history then they won't be good? Our quarterbacks probably don't compare to Joe Montana either so I guess we should just throw the season away.

 

[koonja]

So Mike Frank thinks that if our TEs don't compare to the best ND tight end in history then they won't be good? Our quarterbacks probably don't compare to Joe Montana either so I guess we should just throw the season away.

No. He thinks they're not athletic enough to get open. He said they can't get any separation.

But other TEs have been average athletes and been effective in college and made the pros so that's what Weishar/Smythe will do.

 

[calvegas04]

Our quarterbacks probably don't compare to Joe Montana either so I guess we should just throw the season away.

Joe Montana was alright

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

No. He thinks they're not athletic enough to get open. He said they can't get any separation.

But other TEs have been average athletes and been effective in college and made the pros so that's what Weishar/Smythe will do.

Yessir. The Smythe/Weishar/Luatua combination is going to be effective this year as we break in young WR's this year. The TE position WILL get more receptions this year than last. My opinion. Many more.

 

[koonja]

Yessir. The Smythe/Weishar/Luatua combination is going to be effective this year as we break in young WR's this year. The TE position WILL get more receptions this year than last. My opinion. Many more.

I hope so. They only had 20 receptions as a group last year, and were expected to be leaned on much more this year.

 

[Domina Nostra]

No. He thinks they're not athletic enough to get open. He said they can't get any separation.

But other TEs have been average athletes and been effective in college and made the pros so that's what Weishar/Smythe will do.

He said they caught the ball very well and can be effective from 10 yards in, but they just aren't going to put stress on a defense the same way because they can't get open 15 yards down the field.

In other words, they look more like normal TEs.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

No. He thinks they're not athletic enough to get open. He said they can't get any separation.

But other TEs have been average athletes and been effective in college and made the pros so that's what Weishar/Smythe will do.

Just making sure I understand the tenets of Koon:

None of our depth can really be that good because Kelly always praises his players. It's best to assume the opposite of what Kelly says.

Mike Frank said something, so it has to be true.

And anyone who believes our TEs are even average must be batshit crazy because, as stated above, Mike Frank said they can't get any separation.

Also, anyone who believes we might still be alright despite losing our backups backup at DT/NG is crazy.

And you're probably right Koon, when Kelly is asked how any previous-backup player is doing, he should respond: "Well, he's definitely not the player that preceded him but we'll try to make it work".

Change avatar to something along these lines:
<iframe src="//giphy.com/embed/14oQlDmoH1rwzK" width="480" height="198" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="http://giphy.com/gifs/winnie-the-pooh-love-quotes-life-14oQlDmoH1rwzK"></a></p>

 

[Irish2155]

That was his point!

LOL...has he made his point yet?

 

[condoms SUCk]

No. He thinks they're not athletic enough to get open. He said they can't get any separation.

But other TEs have been average athletes and been effective in college and made the pros so that's what Weishar/Smythe will do.

Losing AJ hurts and I imagine he was going to be a big part of this years offense, now BK and company will have to make a few tweaks.

I agree Weishar/Smythe can be threats in the RZ, I just don't expect to see them blowing by LB's going up the seam.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

LOL...has he made his point yet?

Apparently not! Please start posting in English, DN.

 

[koonja]

Just making sure I understand the tenets of Koon:

None of our depth can really be that good because Kelly always praises his players. It's best to assume the opposite of what Kelly says.

Mike Frank said something, so it has to be true.

And anyone who believes our TEs are even average must be batshit crazy because, as stated above, Mike Frank said they can't get any separation.

Also, anyone who believes we might still be alright despite losing our backups backup at I DT/NG is crazy.

And you're probably right Koon, when Kelly is asked how any previous-backup player is doing, he should respond: "Well, he's definitely not the player that preceded him but we'll try to make it work".

Change avatar to something along these lines:
<iframe src="//giphy.com/embed/14oQlDmoH1rwzK" width="480" height="198" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="http://giphy.com/gifs/winnie-the-pooh-love-quotes-life-14oQlDmoH1rwzK"></a></p>

I know it makes for a better story if it's just based on Mike's comments, but it's not just Mike Frank.

It's because Weishar/Luatua/Smythe have been in the system and I've never seen anything from them in the receiving department to get excited about while at ND, and their high school film didn't wow me. Combine that with them totallying a whopping 7 receptions amongst them last year (with a really good QB and Fuller stealing the safety on every play), and Mike Frank adding they can't run, I'd say my expectations are about set.

This TE situation wouldn't be a big deal if we had experienced WRs, but it is because TE needed to almost triple its production this year. Outside of Tori Hunter, James Onowala has the most receptions of any of our WRs.

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

Losing AJ hurts and I imagine he was going to be a big part of this years offense, now BK and company will have to make a few tweaks.

I agree Weishar/Smythe can be threats in the RZ, I just don't expect to see them blowing by LB's going up the seam.

I hear ya. I just think people are underestimating Smythe. He's a good TE that we haven't seen much of and Weishar has great catching ability. BK says so and I buy it

 

[woolybug25]

I know it makes for a better story if it's just based on Mike's comments, but it's not just Mike Frank.

It's because Weishar/Luatua/Smythe have been in the system and I've never seen anything from them in the receiving department to get excited about while at ND, and their high school film didn't wow me. Combine that with them totallying a whopping 7 receptions amongst them last year (with a really good QB and Fuller stealing the safety on every play), and Mike Frank adding they can't run, I'd say my expectations are about set.

This TE situation wouldn't be a big deal if we had experienced WRs, but it is because TE needed to almost triple its production this year. Outside of Tori Hunter, James Onowala has the most receptions of any of our WRs.

Do you even watch film? Weishar was a prolific receiving TE in high school that had a 4 star rating and was a top 10 TE. If his film doesn't impress you, then nothing will.

The other two have pretty good hs tape as well. Not sure why you even tried to add that point.

 

[koonja]

Do you even watch film? Weishar was a prolific receiving TE in high school that had a 4 star rating and was a top 10 TE. If his film doesn't impress you, then nothing will.

The other two have pretty good hs tape as well. Not sure why you even tried to add that point.

If their film was impressive to you, we have different definitions of what's good receiving film at this level. And if they are so prolific, not sure how the 3 of them mustered up 7 receptions over 13 games at TE U.

 

[Wingman Ray]

Well doesnt look like Weishar is going to steamroll block anyone nor does Smythe look like hes going to take a seem to the house anytime soon. But he could be a decent safety valve drop off for a blitzed QB and Weishar would be a decent catch in WR type role IF we didnt have better WRs in front of him.

Problem with the 4 spread is that the TE is close enough to the line that the LBer covering him can play run and bump at the same time. It doesnt necessarily spread the field like it should. Weishar may be able to run over a DB but I dont see him manhandling a LB not wearing a Navy uniform based on size.

But again, did anyone see Alize being a blocking machine this year either or more of a receiving only threat?

 

[koonja]

Well doesnt look like Weishar is going to steamroll block anyone nor does Smythe look like hes going to take a seem to the house anytime soon. But he could be a decent safety valve drop off for a blitzed QB and Weishar would be a decent catch in WR type role IF we didnt have better WRs in front of him.

Problem with the 4 spread is that the TE is close enough to the line that the LBer covering him can play run and bump at the same time. It doesnt necessarily spread the field like it should. Weishar may be able to run over a DB but I dont see him manhandling a LB not wearing a Navy uniform based on size.

But again, did anyone see Alize being a blocking machine this year either or more of a receiving only threat?

Receiving threat. That's why (to me, not anyone else) this is a huge loss. Smythe/Luatua are good inline, noticeably better than Alize. But Alize doubled the production as a receiver of the rest of the TE group as a whole, as a true frosh. And our WRs are all new, so his loss will sting moreso than in most years. In my opinion. Probably dead wrong.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I know it makes for a better story if it's just based on Mike's comments, but it's not just Mike Frank.

It's because Weishar/Luatua/Smythe have been in the system and I've never seen anything from them in the receiving department to get excited about while at ND, and their high school film didn't wow me. Combine that with them totallying a whopping 7 receptions amongst them last year (with a really good QB and Fuller stealing the safety on every play), and Mike Frank adding they can't run, I'd say my expectations are about set.

This TE situation wouldn't be a big deal if we had experienced WRs, but it is because TE needed to almost triple its production this year. Outside of Tori Hunter, James Onowala has the most receptions of any of our WRs.

Past performance is not an indicator of future success/failure. There are countless examples of peopling going into their junior/senior year who had major spikes in production. Even those who don't spike can simply take the next progressive step.

If the TEs are merely used to block this year, so be it. Hopefully Kelly finds some young weapons he can count on in the receiving dept.

It sounds as if Hunter Jr and Sanders have locked down their respective positions and were merely looking for one more WR. I'm sure we can find someone or a committee to rotate.

I'm not trying to jump on the Koon bash wagon but you are a perfect complement to ND In Vancouver, if I read only your two posts I'd either develop bipolar disorder or have an even-phase view of ND football. If he's over the top sunshine, your under the bottom rain clouds lately.

 

[koonja]

Past performance is not an indicator of future success/failure. There are countless examples of peopling going into their junior/senior year who had major spikes in production. Even those who don't spike can simply take the next progressive step.

If the TEs are merely used to block this year, so be it. Hopefully Kelly finds some young weapons he can count on in the receiving dept.

It sounds as if Hunter Jr and Sanders have locked down their respective positions and were merely looking for one more WR. I'm sure we can find someone or a committee to rotate.

I'm not trying to jump on the Koon bash wagon but you are a perfect complement to ND In Vancouver, if I read only your two posts I'd either develop bipolar disorder or have an even-phase view of ND football. If he's over the top sunshine, your under the bottom rain clouds lately.

Absolutely. I just won't hold my breath on that particular group, but would love to be wrong. I personally don't see the reason for optimism considering the reasons I listed, but could they both improve drastically? Yes - it happens.

 

[woolybug25]

If their film was impressive to you, we have different definitions of what's good receiving film at this level. And if they are so prolific, not sure how the 3 of them mustered up 7 receptions over 13 games at TE U.

The guy had 89 receptions and over 1100 yards as a senior in a good league. You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

#leavekoonalone


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[koonja]

The guy had 89 receptions and over 1100 yards as a senior in a good league. You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

You know how many high schoolers who go D1 can claim stats like that? That's not special at this level, open your eyes and look at other teams from time to time and who they're bringing in.

Where is that production at ND? One came in 2013, other in 2014, so they're vets. 6 catches between them last year. 6. catches. Six.

 

[pkt77242]

Past performance is not an indicator of future success/failure. There are countless examples of peopling going into their junior/senior year who had major spikes in production. Even those who don't spike can simply take the next progressive step.

If the TEs are merely used to block this year, so be it. Hopefully Kelly finds some young weapons he can count on in the receiving dept.

It sounds as if Hunter Jr and Sanders have locked down their respective positions and were merely looking for one more WR. I'm sure we can find someone or a committee to rotate.

I'm not trying to jump on the Koon bash wagon but you are a perfect complement to ND In Vancouver, if I read only your two posts I'd either develop bipolar disorder or have an even-phase view of ND football. If he's over the top sunshine, your under the bottom rain clouds lately.

Disagree. Past performance is definitely an indicator (or my preferred word, Predictor) of future success/failure. It definitely isn't the only one but it is an important one.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Receiving threat. That's why (to me, not anyone else) this is a huge loss. Smythe/Luatua are good inline, noticeably better than Alize. But Alize doubled the production as a receiver of the rest of the TE group as a whole, as a true frosh. And our WRs are all new, so his loss will sting moreso than in most years. In my opinion. Probably dead wrong.

I also think there are reasons to remain skeptical, even if you are optimistic. Losing Jones is a big loss.

But last year's TE production was a result of: (1) losing your starter early in the year, (2) having a totally dominate long-ball WR that reduced long drives; (3) having an excellent, big-play running game that reduced long drives, (4) having 2 running QBs that took off when the pocket broke down, and (4) having legit #2 and #3 WRs in Brown and Robinson.

The offense was generally working fine, so there wasn't a lot of emphasis on getting the two pass-catching TEs (one a freshman, the other still growing into his new weight) involved.

 

[woolybug25]

You know how many high schoolers who go D1 can claim stats like that? That's not special at this level, open your eyes and look at other teams from time to time and who they're bringing in.

Where is that production at ND? One came in 2013, other in 2014, so they're vets. 6 catches between them last year. 6. catches. Six.

I wasn't talking about what he has done in college so far, you said his high school tape "didn't wow you", which is silly. It's a great tape filled with a bunch of good plays. 247 ranked him high in hands, route running and catching radius. You can try to change the subject, but I'm clearly just referring to your incorrect assertion of him not being a good receiving TE in high school. That's absolutely not true.

And to answer your question... No, there aren't a bunch of hs TE's that have 89 receptions and 1100 yards a season. Another dumb comment.

 

[koonja]

I wasn't talking about what he has done in college so far, you said his high school tape "didn't wow you", which is silly. It's a great tape filled with a bunch of good plays. 247 ranked him high in hands, route running and catching radius. You can try to change the subject, but I'm clearly just referring to your incorrect assertion of him not being a good receiving TE in high school. That's absolutely not true.

And to answer your question... No, there aren't a bunch of hs TE's that have 89 receptions and 1100 yards a season. Another dumb comment.

For a D1 P5 TE? It didn't. Sorry - I don't see the prolific receiving threat that you do. Worth taking for depth/overall game/blocking, but not someone you're going to count on as a playmaker in the passing game at the college level at TE.

And the proof is in the production there.