2014 Spring Practice Thread

[Luckylucci]

What about Ben C?

Nothing was said, I'd assume he's on track to play.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Where are the rest of the videos? It seemed like last time there were videos from three or four sources, I guess UND isn't releasing one but I thought there would be more?

 

[IrishLax]

Yeah... but how is that any different than say... '11, where we marched out game 1 with a front 3 of KLM/Cwyner/Johnson? None had shown anything and Ishaq, Tuitt and some kid from FL were all true freshman. That year, our best player was Manti, but I would argue Jaylon Smith showed more in his first year than Manti and is currently a better player than Manti was in his second year.

I am way more confident in this front 7 depth than the front 7 in '11, and one year later, that depth chart gave us one of the finest defensive performances in the history of our program. Here is our starting front 7 from game 1 of '11.

End: Kapron Lewis-Moore
Nose Guard: Sean Cwynar
End: Ethan Johnson
Cat Linebacker: Darius Fleming
Middle Linebacker: Manti Te’o
Weakside Linebacker: Dan Fox
Drop Linebacker: Prince Shembo

How is our lineup not better than that?

First, I'm not comparing it to 2011? Second, KLM had shown quite a bit starting every game the year before... Ethan Johnson was coming into his third year of basically being a full time starter... and Cwynar was comparable (had shown a little bit more) than Jarron Jones. To say none of them had shown anything is pretty inaccurate.

But that's really extraneous, because as I said, I really like our starting 4 a lot. My comment was about the depth list behind them. I have no reservations about the future, my point was that there is a huge dropoff from one guy to the man behind them right now. If Sehldon Day goes down, the next guy in is lightyears behind him. And even though Ishaq and Romeo haven't shown anything in a pure DE role, I think you can make the case that they both have a lot more physical talent than Hounshell and Rabasa.

Pointing at a list of players like NDSean44 did where none have played meaningful (or any snaps), many have serious injury concerns, and a large portion are true freshman who experts pegged as project players needing development and saying "look at the depth!" is a bit ridiculous. No doubt they will be ready to contribute some day, but if you lost our top guys right now for the season with injury I think it's very reasonable to say there is a pretty large gap in ready-to-play talent to the next guy in.

 

[koonja]

Man, I would have loved to see Tuitt and Day inside in a 4-3 on a consistent basis.

 

[NCND]

I don't like bumping threads with slim to no info, so I'll put it here. TIFWIW.

I was on the phone with a young guy from the ND ticket office today. He was pretty cool to talk to, so when I was done with tickets I asked him what's the latest on field turf/grass. He said he's hearing that they'll stick with grass but are waiting to see what the ground looks like before they make their final decision.

Like I said, TIFWIW. He could have no clue and just talking to talk, but he seemed like a genuine guy.

SMH.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Man, I would have loved to see Tuitt and Day inside in a 4-3 on a consistent basis.

If Tuitt would've come back, I would've assumed a starting front four of Tuitt and Jones inside and Day and Ishaq/Okwara outside? Do others see it differently? Tuitt one-gapping would be very tough to handle, especially with an emerging Jones.

 

[koonja]

If Tuitt would've come back, I would've assumed a starting front four of Tuitt and Jones inside and Day and Ishaq/Okwara outside? Do others see it differently? Tuitt one-gapping would be very tough to handle, especially with an emerging Jones.

You may be right. I just think Tuitt would kill it at DT.

 

[woolybug25]

First, I'm not comparing it to 2011? Second, KLM had shown quite a bit starting every game the year before... Ethan Johnson was coming into his third year of basically being a full time starter... and Cwynar was comparable (had shown a little bit more) than Jarron Jones. To say none of them had shown anything is pretty inaccurate.

I wasn't saying that anyone was comparing the two but myself. I thought it was a good example, because of the similar need for freshman to stand up and to illustrate that the '11 situation ended up being our depth chart for a great '12.

That being said, KLM went into '11 with high hopes, but only 4.5 career sacks. The same amount as Ishaq (despite Ishaq rushing the passer FAR less). I call that... at the very most... a wash.

Johnson was incredibly undewhelming (especially for a big time recruit) up to, and through '11. Then he hurt his ankle and wasn't even part of the starting lineup anymore. To say that Johnson was anything but an average player would be innacurate. He certainly wasn't a better player than say.... Sheldon Day.

Cwyner... oh Cwyner... He was a great kid, but his '11 started in injury as well. He had 3 total tackles for loss his entire career. Springmann had two last year with limited playing time and an injury. Jones is a former 5 star recruit that showed serious promise at the end of the year. I personally would take either's potential over Cwyner's going into '11.

But that's really extraneous, because as I said, I really like our starting 4 a lot. My comment was about the depth list behind them. I have no reservations about the future, my point was that there is a huge dropoff from one guy to the man behind them right now. If Sehldon Day goes down, the next guy in is lightyears behind him. And even though Ishaq and Romeo haven't shown anything in a pure DE role, I think you can make the case that they both have a lot more physical talent than Hounshell and Rabasa.

There was a huge dropoff in '11 as well. True freshman, in fact. It worked out fine then. We have more experience there now with a fair sprinkling of highly rated recruits. It's a better mix, imo.

Pointing at a list of players like NDSean44 did where none have played meaningful (or any snaps), many have serious injury concerns, and a large portion are true freshman who experts pegged as project players needing development and saying "look at the depth!" is a bit ridiculous. No doubt they will be ready to contribute some day, but if you lost our top guys right now for the season with injury I think it's very reasonable to say there is a pretty large gap in ready-to-play talent to the next guy in.

True. But as I illustrated, we have been in far more dire situations. That "depth" has a pretty good mix of experience and highly rated recruits. There isn't a dependence on either. Furthermore, our actual starters as you mentioned, are quite talented.

Pair that with the possibility that we will have the possibility of some sort of offense this year... That makes me pretty optimistic.

 

[Luckylucci]

You may be right. I just think Tuitt would kill it at DT.

When at the right weight, Tuitt killed it in 2012 at DE. He was our best edge pass rusher for two years in a row. Sliding him inside sometimes made sense but it wouldn't be a smart permanent move.

 

[greyhammer90]

If Vangorder and this D-Line can just keep Navy from scoring every drive I'll be pleased.

 

[Woneone]

Pair that with the possibility that we will have the possibility of some sort of offense this year... That makes me pretty optimistic.

 

[woolybug25]

possibly...

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

When at the right weight, Tuitt killed it in 2012 at DE. He was our best edge pass rusher for two years in a row. Sliding him inside sometimes made sense but it wouldn't be a smart permanent move.

I'm still very new when it comes to understanding football principles, but if Tuitt came back and we were running a 4-3 base where the DTs were one-gapping, how is that a huge difference from him playing DE in 3-4 three-gap? I assumed he'd be targeted for double coverage on the inside so he'd likely draw the center and guard but that just means Day, Jones and Ishaq would all be fighting single coverage (without accounting for a blocking HB). Couple that with the occasional blitz and that seems to be the ideal split given the personnel.

But I may be making too many assumptions or may not quite understand the difference between the various defensive philosophies.

 

[Rocket89]

I'm still very new when it comes to understanding football principles, but if Tuitt came back and we were running a 4-3 base where the DTs were one-gapping, how is that a huge difference from him playing DE in 3-4 three-gap? I assumed he'd be targeted for double coverage on the inside so he'd likely draw the center and guard but that just means Day, Jones and Ishaq would all be fighting single coverage (without accounting for a blocking HB). Couple that with the occasional blitz and that seems to be the ideal split given the personnel.

But I may be making too many assumptions or may not quite understand the difference between the various defensive philosophies.

I think you're confusing gaps vs. technique.

We ran enough 40 fronts last year and Tuitt almost always stayed at defensive end. No matter the 30 or 40 front he would 2-gap or 1-gap depending on the play-call and situation. The same goes for all the linemen.

I think you'd want to kick Tuitt inside as a 3-tech defensive tackle in 40 fronts occasionally, but that would only be to get more speed at defensive end. Sheldon Day is the perfect 3-tech DT and is going to flourish there.

Tuitt is a perfect SDE 5-tech in a 40 front which is pretty much a similar "job" to what he did in the 30 front. Lots of double teams, eating blocks, etc. However, Diaco really tried to get Tuitt into 1-on-1 pass rushing situations last year too.

 

[IrishLax]

There was a huge dropoff in '11 as well. True freshman, in fact. It worked out fine then. We have more experience there now with a fair sprinkling of highly rated recruits. It's a better mix, imo.

Again, not really sure why we're doing parallels to '11... I think that's a really different scenario than what we've got this year. And no, I don't think it worked out fine relative to what our expectations are. 8-5 with very meh front 7 play... 20+ points per game allowed, not many sacks or TFL.

You say that the dropoff was worse in '11 because it was to true freshmen, but in truth there were plenty of players who weren't. Newman, Stockton, H. Williams, Utupo, etc. were some highly-to-moderately rated guys who NDSean44 would consider "depth" much like he's listing Hounshell, Utupo, Matuska, etc. this year.

The lack of position battles says all you really need to know about the true depth on this team. Those top 4 guys are cemented. There is no Nix waiting in the wings after being groomed in his RS season, there is no Steve Filer pushing Darius Fleming and getting serious in game reps as your edge rusher, there are no 5 #1 recruits as EEs pushing for PT. It's four very-good-to-great players who we've seen make plays, and then...

True. But as I illustrated, we have been in far more dire situations. That "depth" has a pretty good mix of experience and highly rated recruits. There isn't a dependence on either. Furthermore, our actual starters as you mentioned, are quite talented.

Pair that with the possibility that we will have the possibility of some sort of offense this year... That makes me pretty optimistic.

When in the Brian Kelly era have we been in more dire strengths with regards to DL depth? Only time I can think of is 2010. The talent is there... Jones + Day could be truly dominant, and I have a lot of optimism in Okwara (who played all over the DL last year) and Ishaq (who always should've been a pure 4-3 DE) stepping up big time. But I don't know how anyone looks at the second unit of Hounshell, Rabasa, Rochelle, Utupo and is confident they can play winning football.

 

[woolybug25]

Again... I brought up '11 because there are a lot of parallels between the front 7 depth chart on that team and this one. Then the next year, that depth matured into one of the finest defenses we've seen at Notre Dame.

I showed you why our starters were better than those starters, and that there really wasn't a huge difference in recruiting rankings (ie potential) between the freshman. Pair that with more experienced depth... and this year is better than a year that turned out pretty good. Our defense wasn't the problem in '11... so you can't simply use 8-5 as a barometer.

I'm not sold on the argument that this is a worrysome front 7 depth chart, Lax... Just not.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Well throw in Springmann, Matuska and a talented Trumbetti it's not a bad second units...it's a year away from being a pretty good second unit.

 

[IrishLax]

Again... I brought up '11 because there are a lot of parallels between the front 7 depth chart on that team and this one. Then the next year, that depth matured into one of the finest defenses we've seen at Notre Dame.

I showed you why our starters were better than those starters, and that there really wasn't a huge difference in recruiting rankings (ie potential) between the freshman. Pair that with more experienced depth... and this year is better than a year that turned out pretty good. Our defense wasn't the problem in '11... so you can't simply use 8-5 as a barometer.

I'm not sold on the argument that this is a worrysome front 7 depth chart, Lax... Just not.

OK, this is where you lose me. Tuitt, Lynch, and Ishaq were all 5 recruits by a service or two.

Cage and Mokwuah... Mokwuah is a project, Cage has limited upside but is probably more ready to play. Neither are rated near a 5 level. Hayes, Trumbetti, Bonner, Blankenship, Williams... none of those guys are ready to play 5 guys. Hayes and Trumbetti can both probably contribute, so can Blankenship maybe from a physical standpoint. Williams has epic upside but is way too lean right now, and Bonner is a question mark. Why are you listing Martini as a DE? You just got a hunch that's going to happen?

If we had signed Hand, Garrett, and Brown I'd agree with you. We didn't though. You're comparing...

Lynch - 99.5 rating, #9 overall composite, 5
Ishaq - 98.8 rating, #26 overall composite, 5
Tuitt - 98.1 rating, #32 overall composite, one spot removed from 5

to

Trumbetti - 93.5 rating, #143 overall composite, 4
Hayes - 90.6, #237 overall composite, 4

To me, that's a really big gap in rating/projection/instant impact ability.

 

[Crazy Balki]

OK, this is where you lose me. Tuitt, Lynch, and Ishaq were all 5 recruits by a service or two.

Cage and Mokwuah... Mokwuah is a project, Cage has limited upside but is probably more ready to play. Neither are rated near a 5 level. Hayes, Trumbetti, Bonner, Blankenship, Williams... none of those guys are ready to play 5 guys. Hayes and Trumbetti can both probably contribute, so can Blankenship maybe from a physical standpoint. Williams has epic upside but is way too lean right now, and Bonner is a question mark. Why are you listing Martini as a DE? You just got a hunch that's going to happen?

If we had signed Hand, Garrett, and Brown I'd agree with you. We didn't though. You're comparing...

Lynch - 99.5 rating, #9 overall composite, 5
Ishaq - 98.8 rating, #26 overall composite, 5
Tuitt - 98.1 rating, #32 overall composite, one spot removed from 5

to

Trumbetti - 93.5 rating, #143 overall composite, 4
Hayes - 90.6, #237 overall composite, 4

To me, that's a really big gap in rating/projection/instant impact ability.

This is where you lose me. This season, more than any, is a good reason that you need to watch film for yourself and not rely on star ratings. Trumbetti is as close to a 5-star DE as you can get. He was one of the 3 best pass rushers in this year's class. Reminds me a lot of Joey Bosa from O$U, except a little smaller, a little faster and more athletic. The other huge thing about this class, compared to 2011 is depth. The depth is HUGE, whereas in 2011, there was little of it. Not to mention that Tuitt had 1 great year, Ishaq has yet to show his potential and Lynch...next.

 

[koonja]

This is where you lose me. This season, more than any, is a good reason that you need to watch film for yourself and not rely on star ratings. Trumbetti is as close to a 5-star DE as you can get. He was one of the 3 best pass rushers in this year's class. Reminds me a lot of Joey Bosa from O$U, except a little smaller, a little faster and more athletic. The other huge thing about this class, compared to 2011 is depth. The depth is HUGE, whereas in 2011, there was little of it. Not to mention that Tuitt had 1 great year, Ishaq has yet to show his potential and Lynch...next.

I agree Trumbetti has 5-star potential, but he's still only 250 LBs. I know Lynch performed like a madman his freshman year, and has always been unusually light, but his ability to produce at that weight is very a-typical IMO.

 

[aubeirish]

This is where you lose me. This season, more than any, is a good reason that you need to watch film for yourself and not rely on star ratings. Trumbetti is as close to a 5-star DE as you can get. He was one of the 3 best pass rushers in this year's class. Reminds me a lot of Joey Bosa from O$U, except a little smaller, a little faster and more athletic. The other huge thing about this class, compared to 2011 is depth. The depth is HUGE, whereas in 2011, there was little of it. Not to mention that Tuitt had 1 great year, Ishaq has yet to show his potential and Lynch...next.

Yea, Trumbetti is a monster. He surprised everyone big time at the UA game. Relentless pass rusher. I think we have enough depth at the position with these Freshmen coming in. Is it going to be quality? Only time will tell. Stars don't mean a thing when guys sign their LOI.

 

[Ironman8]

If you are discounting Ishaq for not showing his potential on the field yet, how are you hyping other guys like you are expecting them as given to immediately do the same when they haven't yet?

 

[IrishLax]

This is where you lose me. This season, more than any, is a good reason that you need to watch film for yourself and not rely on star ratings. Trumbetti is as close to a 5-star DE as you can get. He was one of the 3 best pass rushers in this year's class. Reminds me a lot of Joey Bosa from O$U, except a little smaller, a little faster and more athletic. The other huge thing about this class, compared to 2011 is depth. The depth is HUGE, whereas in 2011, there was little of it. Not to mention that Tuitt had 1 great year, Ishaq has yet to show his potential and Lynch...next.

 

[Luckylucci]

I agree Trumbetti has 5-star potential, but he's still only 250 LBs. I know Lynch performed like a madman his freshman year, and has always been unusually light, but his ability to produce at that weight is very a-typical IMO.

250 for a WDE is fine weight. Jackson Jeffcoat played it for Texas at 247 and he balled out. Dee Ford at 244, the list goes on.

Let me say though, NDSean is drinking too much of his kool aid again today,haha.

 

[koonja]

250 for a WDE is fine weight. Jackson Jeffcoat played it for Texas at 247 and he balled out.

Let me say though, NDSean is drinking too much of his kool aid again today,haha.

Well yeah, 250 isn't a red flag, but I'd guess the preferred weight for a WDE is at least 265, which is going to take a guy like Trumbetti a year to get to. Agreed?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

To me, the most important aspect of the defenses ability to dominate this coming year is not personnel driven, it is coach driven.

A) Will BVG use packages on the line like he does with db's, thus simplifying the job and sharing the work load, making it easier for the young guys to perform at a high level?

B) Will BVG take everything off of Elston's plate other than developing all the players for their new assignments?

C) Will BVG's level of energy continue to infect the program, and charge up some guy that hasn't shown his best body of work yet?

Haven't you guys seen how reenergized BK is?

Talking about past years is best demonstrated by looking at one player. He was the scouting services gift from God; who holds hope he will be drafted above the fifth round? He did nothing, therefore it is all about player development, whether you have that "raw anticipated talent" or not. And besides, '11's defense was poorer for the run specifically because of Aaron Lynch.

Post script : I have heard AT is knocking people on their asses. And no one I talk to has seen any two gapping this year. Can anyone confirm or deny either of these assertions?

 

[Luckylucci]

Well yeah, 250 isn't a red flag, but I'd guess the preferred weight for a WDE is at least 265, which is going to take a guy like Trumbetti a year to get to. Agreed?

No, I don't agree with that at all. Clowney who is a freak plays WDE at 266 but in college you'll find very very good WDE's at 250-265 with that 265 being the high end. A SDE is going to be in the range your thinking of. His skill probably won't be where it needs to be yet but its not his weight.

 

[IrishLax]

Trumbetti's limiting characteristic, if anything, is his length. But we've seen players of his stature and smaller be dominant pass rushers. He has 5 athleticism for his position.

 

[Emcee77]

I tend to agree with Lax that the experienced depth (if not talent) is a little lacking, but Lou Somogyi of BGI made a good point that at least improved my mood about it a little bit: you rarely have experienced depth.

Experienced depth is often an anomaly that comes from injuries to starters, forcing underclassmen to play before they are expected to (like Tommy Rees did in 2010), or something like that. You might even say that, ideally, you WON'T have depth with too much experience, because your depth guys will only have gotten that experience because the starters were out due to injury, suspension, etc. Having to rely on talented but unproven guys on the first team is one thing, but having to rely on unproven guys on the second team is not a terrible problem to have.

 

[greyhammer90]

I tend to agree with Lax that the experienced depth (if not talent) is a little lacking, but Lou Somogyi of BGI made a good point that at least improved my mood about it a little bit: you rarely have experienced depth.

Experienced depth is often an anomaly that comes from injuries to starters, forcing underclassmen to play before they are expected to (like Tommy Rees did in 2010), or something like that. You might even say that, ideally, you WON'T have depth with too much experience, because your depth guys will only have gotten that experience because the starters were out due to injury, suspension, etc. Having to rely on talented but unproven guys on the first team is one thing, but having to rely on unproven guys on the second team is not a terrible problem to have.

I think that's an important point. Your second string should be, at most, only slightly experienced. Otherwise, you've got a pattern where injuries are common or bad upperclassmen are continuously falling behind the new guys. That's not the sign of a healthy program.