'17 MI LB/RB Antjuan Simmons (Michigan State Verbal)

K

koonja

Guest
I'd take him.

Q: How do you know you're a 4-8 team?

A: You're stressed over a 3-star.

Here's your sign.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Going off of Domina's numbers from his scholarships thread, it looks like we have 5-6 spots available, and that's the information he probably has at this time. Could things change, for sure, but I doubt he's going to start making those assumptions.

We NEED to add 2 WR's, so Elko has 3-4 spots. DB is a huge need as we have 1 committed. He's aiming to get 2 DB's. And he's choosing to go after DL, with the last 1-2 spots. FWIW, I think Elko will fill his spots, whatever that numbers ends up being. Now if a kid transfers in April when they aren't getting reps, would that leave a spots for Simmons, yes, but again, I doubt he's going to be making those assumptions, with the amount of time he has.

How many did we need last year? Or the year before? Or the year before that?

Every damn year we pontificate on how we recruit x amount of players at each position to hit 85. Then either not hit it or fit a bunch of three star players into the class to fill a position in the 11th hour.

Meanwhile, we have umpteen threads on here crying about over signing or teams grabbing too many players at a position. We cry, we complain and then use the exact opposite recruiting strategy and finish each season with gaping holes in our roster and shitty on field results.

The only thing we NEED is to win, and looking at Bama, Clemson, OSU, etc who pack their rosters with talent regardless of numbers (outside of normal exceptions)... we are doing it wrong.
 

Luckylucci

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
27,770
Reaction score
10,153
Here's the deal, Elko doesn't share the same hatred for ND being under the 85 scholarship limit that we as fans do. He has probably went over in great detail; the current roster, the eligibility, the current class, etc. In his due diligence he's made the decision to not pursue any of the previous LB targets. Its make perfect sense and I agree with the decision based on what we know now.

The entire argument against it is, "we never get to 85, so we should obviously take him." While true, he doesn't share that same feeling, as he hasn't been a part of that past history. He knows what he has in front of him and is making decisions. There are only a set number of scholarships that are available to him, and he's making decisions accordingly.

Obviously coming off a 4-8 season, we are jaded as hell. I get that, but lets give this guy a chance. I'm all in and I think he's going to be a really good DC. If anything, I'm more upset about Brooks. I think he's the best ILB prospect that we'll have signed in the last 2 classes.

OR maybe he just doesn't think Simmons is any good or a fit for his defense. Can't fault the guy for that. I don't believe that to be true as it doesn't seem like we are going after other LB's and we've dropped Brooks as well, but you never know.
 
Last edited:

Sherm Sticky

The Prophet
Messages
19,321
Reaction score
1,638
Can't some of these of these guys possibly move to SS? I know Bilal could, although we probably wouldn't want that. Depth RB? Strong special teamer? I guess my thought is why pass on a good talent because of a current logjam. I remember when we were "loaded" with corners. Then things changed. I remember that with a lot of positions. We never have problems with roster numbers anyways. Just seems silly to pass on talented guys because of an imaginary scenario where we run out of room.



I feel like a lot of teams just get the most talented guys they can into the fold and then figure it out later. But we sit and fret about stuff, pass on guys and then try to scramble at the last hour to fill our classes. It's absurd.


This

I agree with this. I wish we would take Simmons but it looks like staff has passed. He could be a solid ST guy and probably a good Rover. I think Bilal could be a great Rover behind Traquill this year and if he shows improvement in coverage he possibly push to start at Rover in '18


And this

I understand and don't disagree with most of what you said but why take Jones last year and not Simmons this year? He's explosive to the ball and I understand Elko wants to bring his guys in that fit his scheme but why not just bring Simmons? He would have came here and who knows what. Stock pile all the talent you can have. We aren't low on numbers where he would take a spot of another prospect of need. I mean I understand both sides but why not? We have nothing to loose.


And this



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Here's the deal, Elko doesn't share the same hatred for ND being under the 85 scholarship limit that we as fans do. He has probably went over in great detail; the current roster, the eligibility, the current class, etc. In his due diligence he's made the decision to not pursue any of the previous LB targets. Its make perfect sense and I agree with the decision based on what we know now.

The entire argument against it is, "we never get to 85, so we should obviously take him." While true, he doesn't share that same feeling, as he hasn't been a part of that past history. He knows what he has in front of him and is making decisions. There are only a set number of scholarships that are available to him, and he's making decisions accordingly.

I feel like your last few posts say "I agree with what you're saying, but the staff doesn't, so neither do I".
 

Sherm Sticky

The Prophet
Messages
19,321
Reaction score
1,638
Yeah, Butler was never a good fit as a cover corner, but you can only play the guys that are on your team. But we were stacked at his position at the beginning of that season too. Meanwhile, we were under 85 and worrying about not over filling positions.



Even if he's not a difference maker, he would add more value then an empty damn slot.



Finally this also!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Luckylucci

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
27,770
Reaction score
10,153
I feel like your last few posts say "I agree with what you're saying, but the staff doesn't, so neither do I".

Accept, I'm basically the only person in this conversation that's actually taken anytime to break down the numbers, recruiting class, scheme, and eligibility. You are basically saying, "this never works out in the past, so I don't like it." Without looking at anything that could be unique about this situation. If anyone is lazy here, its that argument.
 
Last edited:

Luckylucci

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
27,770
Reaction score
10,153
Also, understanding or being empathetic with a persons feelings, which could drive a majority of their thinking on a certain topic. Is completely different than agreeing with their stance.

I realize why you guys might feel this way (past history says so), but when looking at the number, the scheme, etc. I think it makes perfect sense.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Accept, I'm basically the only person in this conversation that's actually taken anytime to break down the numbers, recruiting class, and eligibility. You are basically saying, "this never works out in the past, so I don't like it." Without looking at anything that could be unique about this situation. If anyone is lazy here, its that argument.

Ha... oddly, there is a thread on here that outlines exactly what you have taken so much painstakingly difficult time pursuing. I used to do it too, until I realized exactly what you acknowledged I was correct about. Which is that it doesn't effing matter.

I'll give you a spoiler. We will pass on several other prospects and either hit 85 with some late nobody's or not hit it at all. The guys on this site will go back and forth worrying about how many players we can go after until we're "full". Meanwhile, OSU will sign a better class with like 100 of the top corners just because they realized what this staff (and apparently most of this site) apparently is incapable of... that they can....
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Also, understanding or being empathetic with a persons feelings, which could drive a majority of their thinking on a certain topic. Is completely different than agreeing with their stance.

I realize why you guys might feel this way (past history says so), but when looking at the number, the scheme, etc. I think it makes perfect sense.

I'm sure that Urban, Harbaugh, Dabo, Saban, etc all think it makes sense for us too...
 

NDdomer2

Local Sports vBookie
Messages
17,050
Reaction score
3,875
Lol only one??????? You can't honestly believe that can u lucky?
 

stlnd01

Was away. Now returned.
Messages
13,388
Reaction score
10,249
This. This! A MILLION TIMES THIS!!! Even if he red-shirts then plays ST for 3-4 years, you can't say it's not better than a walk-on in the same scenario.

But it's an empty slot for one year vs. a scholarship for four. And that one year, Simmons probably isn't going to play much anyway. Then we could well get a better recruit next cycle.

I can see it both ways. I don't think we should be turning away talented players, but we have a logjam at this position. If he was a DL I'd feel differently. I want all of them. But we don't tend to rotate a ton at ILB and if the coaches want to use their scholarships elsewhere, I don't blame them.
 

Luckylucci

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
27,770
Reaction score
10,153
Ha... oddly, there is a thread on here that outlines exactly what you have taken so much painstakingly difficult time pursuing. I used to do it too, until I realized exactly what you acknowledged I was correct about. Which is that it doesn't effing matter.

I'll give you a spoiler. We will pass on several other prospects and either hit 85 with some late nobody's or not hit it at all. The guys on this site will go back and forth worrying about how many players we can go after until we're "full". Meanwhile, OSU will sign a better class with like 100 of the top corners just because they realized what this staff (and apparently most of this site) apparently is incapable of... that they can....

Never said it took a lot of time. Just pointed out that I was only one providing actual information or context, instead of just emotions based of past history. As of today, with the information we have, we have X amount of scholarships. Elko and company are going to make decisions based on that.

OSU processing players, out recruiting us (in general), having the #1 class, etc. has absolutely nothing to do with this decision. You are now just grasping at straws.

ND doesn't operate the same way, if you want to have a discussion around why you think they should, go ahead. I doubt its changing, so that's an act of futility to me. Like mentioned by Whiskeyjack, we're probably closer to moving in the other direction, than we are the OSU/Bama direction.

When it comes to what we can control, and what we know, Elko made this decision. I'm going to stick to that convo.

We'll see how it plays out. I'd rather have most DB's and DL that we are currently recruiting than Simmons, I'll be on record saying so, and let it play out.
 

GBdomer

People's Champion
Messages
6,845
Reaction score
555
Lucky you are basically just saying I agree with the staff because it's what they want so it has to be right. Now can you say you facorted in the numbers. Who cares about the numbers it's not like we are sitting at 80 players and have to be picky. We aren't so it doesn't make sense, it doesn't do any harm what so ever bringing this kid in or Brooks in. Absolutely none! So we are going to ride with a guy with basically one arm this season and Drew White at LB?


So let's ride with 75 scholarships this season instead of going for 76? Simmons has offers from everyone and all run different schemes and bringing in Simmons is better then an open spot
 
Last edited:

OCIrish

Fukk Michigan
Messages
3,280
Reaction score
218
Lucky you are basically just saying I agree with the staff because it's what they want so it has to be right. Now can you say you facorted in the numbers. Who cares about the numbers it's not like we are sitting at 80 players and have to be picky. We aren't so it doesn't make sense, it doesn't do any harm what so ever bringing this kid in or Brooks in. Absolutely none! So we are going to ride with a guy with basically one arm this season and Drew White at LB?


So let's ride with 75 scholarships this season instead of going for 76? Simmons has offers from everyone and all run different schemes and bringing in Simmons is better then an open spot

I feel so fucking stupid........thanks GB.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Never said it took a lot of time. Just pointed out that I was only one providing actual information or context, instead of just emotions based of past history. As of today, with the information we have, we have X amount of scholarships. Elko and company are going to make decisions based on that.

OSU processing players, out recruiting us (in general), having the #1 class, etc. has absolutely nothing to do with this decision. You are now just grasping at straws.

ND doesn't operate the same way, if you want to have a discussion around why you think they should, go ahead. I doubt its changing, so that's an act of futility to me. Like mentioned by Whiskeyjack, we're probably closer to moving in the other direction, than we are the OSU/Bama direction.

When it comes to what we can control, and what we know, Elko made this decision. I'm going to stick to that convo.

We'll see how it plays out. I'd rather have most DB's and DL that we are currently recruiting than Simmons, I'll be on record saying so, and let it play out.

You keep insinuating that you are making decisions on data and I'm making them on emotions when the opposite is true. You are arguing because "to fill 85 you need x amount of guys at x position. The staff follows this, so I do too". That's not data driven, its emotional. You are saying simply because the staff has a reason why they recruit this way, that it's correct. Well... the data actually shows that it doesn't. It actually shows that their strategy actually causes holes in our roster. That's a factually correct statement that can be backed up with comparing our numbers strategy to say... OSU's.

I'm not arguing that we cut players. Signing the best players despite worrying about a number that you can't possibly predict with accuracy is moronic. That is mutually exclusive from cutting players and also what every brilliant mind in head coaching does.
 

Luckylucci

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
27,770
Reaction score
10,153
Lucky you are basically just saying I agree with the staff because it's what they want so it has to be right. Now can you say you facorted in the numbers. Who cares about the numbers it's not like we are sitting at 80 players and have to be picky. We aren't so it doesn't make sense, it doesn't do any harm what so ever bringing this kid in or Brooks in. Absolutely none! So we are going to ride with a guy with basically one arm this season and Drew White at LB?

So let's ride with 75 scholarships this season instead of going for 76? Simmons has offers from everyone and all run different schemes and bringing in Simmons is better then an open spot

I'm obviously not just blindly agreeing with the staff. Coming from a guy who can't even get the numbers right, its pretty rich.

Do you even look at the numbers or just make this stuff up?

I actually believe we are at 81 currently, but that is with Cage coming back. In Domina's breakdown we were at 82, back out Adebo and Hicks, that puts us 80, he forgot Jamir Jones, which puts us back at 81. Let's side with 5 spots based on siding with a more worst case scenario. WR's and DB's are a HUGE need, need 2 of both, at least. And Elko wants to get another DL or two with remaining spots. Pretty simple.

Could we have transfers and medicals that aren't factored in, sure. Does that happen a lot, absolutely, but until ND decides to start accounting for that, we're just wasting time discussing it. They are looking to target 85 with this class. And even if they were looking to target 87 or 88, I'd still rather have more DB's.

We are currently, 4 DB's from having the same depth at DB, that we do at LB (see below). So essentially, I'd take 4 DB's, that I like, before another LB of Simmons abilities. Now, if this is Baron Browning, its a different conversation. He'd be the best LB on the roster from day 1. That's not the case, so it doesn't enter the conversation.

Like I said before, we currently have a 3 deep at LB, of players with 3+ years of eligibility. Currently, we have 11 DB's for 5 spots with that same eligibility. That means we are only 2 deep at those 5 spots. So if I'm a DC and I'm looking to balance out the roster to fit my scheme, I'm going to use every available spot I have, to even out those numbers. Because at some point, that will become extremely important.

To the last bolded, that decision has already been made. ND doesn't process players and those guys have their spot. Its not changing, so we make decisions from there. Adding another LB, with so much eligibility on the roster, when we need DB's in the worst way, doesn't make sense. I'm literally just looking at the numbers. Somehow this is too difficult to grasp.

Here's a good example, of what everyone keeps bringing up, lets say Justin Brent doesn't come back. That opens another scholarship. I'd rather use that on one of the DB' we are currently after, before Simmons. So while we might end up with 84, 82, whatever number, I'd be picking up numerous DB's first.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
If you wait until you find out if Brent comes back, then you can't fill it with a good prospect. I don't know how to explain this any differently.

Urban would not wait to find out if he is coming back. He wouldn't worry about 5th year returners. He doesn't do it because it's a dumbass strategy.
 

Luckylucci

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
27,770
Reaction score
10,153
If you wait until you find out if Brent comes back, then you can't fill it with a good prospect. I don't know how to explain this any differently.

Urban would not wait to find out if he is coming back. He wouldn't worry about 5th year returners. He doesn't do it because it's a dumbass strategy.

At this point, you are literally just ignoring the depth chart and numbers.

Even if Brent doesn't come back, I'd rather us go recruit another DB. So this has absolutely nothing to do with Simmons. This decision is to balance out the roster. So like I said above, if we are going to recruit to 88 (for example), great, I'll go along with that. Give me 4-5 DB's first, 2 WR's and 1-2 DL, before I contemplate signing Simmons. because that is what we need to balance out the roster.

FWIW, I do think that the staff is trying to push some numbers right now, to a degree at least. It looks like we want to sign 2 WR's, 2 DL, and 2-3 DB's. Which would put us over, with everything we know currently.
 
Last edited:

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,546
Reaction score
29,005
I'm obviously not just blindly agreeing with the staff. Coming from a guy who can't even get the numbers right, its pretty rich.

Do you even look at the numbers or just make this stuff up?

I actually believe we are at 81 currently, but that is with Cage coming back. In Domina's breakdown we were at 82, back out Adebo and Hicks, that puts us 80, he forgot Jamir Jones, which puts us back at 81. Let's side with 5 spots based on siding with a more worst case scenario. WR's and DB's are a HUGE need, need 2 of both, at least. And Elko wants to get another DL or two with remaining spots. Pretty simple.

Could we have transfers and medicals that aren't factored in, sure. Does that happen a lot, absolutely, but until ND decides to start accounting for that, we're just wasting time discussing it. They are looking to target 85 with this class. And even if they were looking to target 87 or 88, I'd still rather have more DB's.

We are currently, 4 DB's from having the same depth at DB, that we do at LB (see below). So essentially, I'd take 4 DB's, that I like, before another LB of Simmons abilities. Now, if this is Baron Browning, its a different conversation. He'd be the best LB on the roster from day 1. That's not the case, so it doesn't enter the conversation.

Like I said before, we currently have a 3 deep at LB, of players with 3+ years of eligibility. Currently, we have 11 DB's for 5 spots with that same eligibility. That means we are only 2 deep at those 5 spots. So if I'm a DC and I'm looking to balance out the roster to fit my scheme, I'm going to use every available spot I have, to even out those numbers. Because at some point, that will become extremely important.

To the last bolded, that decision has already been made. ND doesn't process players and those guys have their spot. Its not changing, so we make decisions from there. Adding another LB, with so much eligibility on the roster, when we need DB's in the worst way, doesn't make sense. I'm literally just looking at the numbers. Somehow this is too difficult to grasp.

Here's a good example, of what everyone keeps bringing up, lets say Justin Brent doesn't come back. That opens another scholarship. I'd rather use that on one of the DB' we are currently after, before Simmons. So while we might end up with 84, 82, whatever number, I'd be picking up numerous DB's first.

People should read this post.

Yes, ND should aim to over-recruit so that there aren't roster holes or less than 85 scholarship players.

But when doing that, we need to target warm bodies at positions of need NOT positions of depth. The reason why our overall team talent doesn't mesh with the "talent composite" if you just look at total 4:s: players signed and such is because we have tremendous layering of talent at certain positions... and then other ones we barely have a 2-deep (see: safety, and before that ILB). Right now, we should be tryign to sign a ton of DBs and ATH types and then some will probably develop into quality players and others will likely wash out of the program through normal attrition.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
At this point, you are literally just ignoring the depth chart and numbers.

Even if Brent doesn't come back, I'd rather us go recruit another DB. So this has absolutely nothing to do with Simmons. This decision is to balance out the roster. So like I said above, if we are going to recruit to 88 (for example), great, I'll go along with that. Give me 4-5 DB's first, 2 WR's and 1-2 DL, before I contemplate signing Simmons. because that is what we need to balance out the roster.

I'm not saying we ignore the numbers, I'm saying you don't pass on a kid because you hope by signing day you have enough kids in each slot and you guessed right on who is returning (impossible to do, btw). You make a plan, recruit as many as you can, and oversign the class of if you have to fill slots at the end. Kids will either get in trouble (like last year), surprisingly not return (like last year), be academically ineligible (like last year) or won't return for their 5th year (like.... you guessed it.... last year).
 

GBdomer

People's Champion
Messages
6,845
Reaction score
555
I'm obviously not just blindly agreeing with the staff. Coming from a guy who can't even get the numbers right, its pretty rich.

Do you even look at the numbers or just make this stuff up?

I actually believe we are at 81 currently, but that is with Cage coming back. In Domina's breakdown we were at 82, back out Adebo and Hicks, that puts us 80, he forgot Jamir Jones, which puts us back at 81. Let's side with 5 spots based on siding with a more worst case scenario. WR's and DB's are a HUGE need, need 2 of both, at least. And Elko wants to get another DL or two with remaining spots. Pretty simple.

Could we have transfers and medicals that aren't factored in, sure. Does that happen a lot, absolutely, but until ND decides to start accounting for that, we're just wasting time discussing it. They are looking to target 85 with this class. And even if they were looking to target 87 or 88, I'd still rather have more DB's.

We are currently, 4 DB's from having the same depth at DB, that we do at LB (see below). So essentially, I'd take 4 DB's, that I like, before another LB of Simmons abilities. Now, if this is Baron Browning, its a different conversation. He'd be the best LB on the roster from day 1. That's not the case, so it doesn't enter the conversation.

Like I said before, we currently have a 3 deep at LB, of players with 3+ years of eligibility. Currently, we have 11 DB's for 5 spots with that same eligibility. That means we are only 2 deep at those 5 spots. So if I'm a DC and I'm looking to balance out the roster to fit my scheme, I'm going to use every available spot I have, to even out those numbers. Because at some point, that will become extremely important.

To the last bolded, that decision has already been made. ND doesn't process players and those guys have their spot. Its not changing, so we make decisions from there. Adding another LB, with so much eligibility on the roster, when we need DB's in the worst way, doesn't make sense. I'm literally just looking at the numbers. Somehow this is too difficult to grasp.

Here's a good example, of what everyone keeps bringing up, lets say Justin Brent doesn't come back. That opens another scholarship. I'd rather use that on one of the DB' we are currently after, before Simmons. So while we might end up with 84, 82, whatever number, I'd be picking up numerous DB's first.


I'm not disagreeing with your breakdown from the start you make a valid argument.The way I'm taking this is "well the staff wants it this way so do I which makes both of us correct" Simmons should come here and play the rover, I get we need corners at least two but we also need another LB if we are banking on a guy with one arm right now and Drew White
 

GBdomer

People's Champion
Messages
6,845
Reaction score
555
Simmons is announcing his commitment to MSU on Saturday

On phone and don't know how to copy and paste
 

OCIrish

Fukk Michigan
Messages
3,280
Reaction score
218
I think he's gonna turn out to be a good player. Gonna be a good get for Sparty!!
 

BobbyMac

Staff & Stuff
Staff member
Messages
33,950
Reaction score
9,295
I think he's gonna turn out to be a good player. Gonna be a good get for Sparty!!

Sucks that they gotta pass but they have a lot of years left on the current roster, a new scheme to recruit for and just 2 guaranteed guys coming off the depth chart next year in Morgan and Martini.

2018 has SO much talent at LB.

Committed: Bauer

Top of their list: Teradja Mitchell, Dallas Gant, IE Gaoteote

Add to that now that Elko/Lea are here(?) Dax Hollifield, Alston Orji, Cameron McGrone & Jack Sanborn.

More players to watch: Jesse Luketa, Justice Dingle, Terrance Taylor, Hugh Davis, Rocky Shelton (LB/R/SS), Victor Terry, Dan Bolden & Cameron Hoelscher

Gut feeling right now says it's Bauer and McGrone and if there's a 3rd it depends on who they get traction with.

Sounds like Mitchell is going to FSU and if anyone can flip him it'll be Clemson, UGa or Bama. Gant probably ends up in Columbus, IE ends up where ever he wants so why not SC but if somehow ND could snag him, McGrone and Bauer.... the Rainbow Brohilition would be born. I'm applying for the TM right now.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
Sucks that they gotta pass but they have a lot of years left on the current roster, a new scheme to recruit for and just 2 guaranteed guys coming off the depth chart next year in Morgan and Martini.

2018 has SO much talent at LB.

Committed: Bauer

Top of their list: Teradja Mitchell, Dallas Gant, IE Gaoteote

Add to that now that Elko/Lea are here(?) Dax Hollifield, Alston Orji, Cameron McGrone & Jack Sanborn.

More players to watch: Jesse Luketa, Justice Dingle, Terrance Taylor, Hugh Davis, Rocky Shelton (LB/R/SS), Victor Terry, Dan Bolden & Cameron Hoelscher

Gut feeling right now says it's Bauer and McGrone and if there's a 3rd it depends on who they get traction with.

Sounds like Mitchell is going to FSU and if anyone can flip him it'll be Clemson, UGa or Bama. Gant probably ends up in Columbus, IE ends up where ever he wants so why not SC but if somehow ND could snag him, McGrone and Bauer.... the Rainbow Brohilition would be born. I'm applying for the TM right now.

Not a sure bet about one you've listed. It's all about developing a relationship, now.
 

BobbyMac

Staff & Stuff
Staff member
Messages
33,950
Reaction score
9,295
Not a sure bet about one you've listed. It's all about developing a relationship, now.

ND's going to have to outperform OSU in every line item to get Gant away from OSU in a year when they have the the #1 or #2 best odds to win the NC. I guess the semi-reset buttons pushed at both programs helps the Irish as relationships have to be rebuilt but there's a lot of current advantages in OSU's favor. I don't see it happening.
 
Top