'16 CA OL Matthew Gutwald

[Irish#1]

The differences

1. We may have one or two spots open and we always want to use all our spots
2. This kid would be 1 year ahead in weight training and playbook experience
3. If he doesn't earn a scholarship you're no worse off, so why not add him in case he's good?
4. Even though we have three very good gets this year, you never know what can happen and you don't want to have a "gap" year without any depth.
5. There's no reason you can't get both since spots always seem to open up.

Plus he could turn into a decent DT!

 

[kjones]

1. He doesn't fill a spot. If he stays a PWO like Bush or Kilander, then I guess he has a spot on the 105 roster.

The question was "If he comes as a PWO and then gets a schollie, how is this better than just signing a 2017 recruit."

 

[TheTurningPoint]

His actually has a lot of traditional full ride offers: Oregon, Arizona, Oregon St, Wash St, and San Jose St.

Something that Gutwald said seems odd to me.



How is recruiting Gutwald as a '16 PWO then giving him a scholarship "pretty fast" better than waiting until '17 and signing the #7 OG in Matt Bockhorst ,who would commit instantly if he was offered? It's not like ND has a shortage of guards at the moment.

Has anyone else watched both films and have an opinion?

1. He is bigger and more athletic than Bockhorst. You have Matt Bockhorst on the team already in Trevor Ruhland.

2. If he doesn't hit his potential then no one bitches about "wasting" a scholarship.

3. It's a recruiting tactic. You aren't going to tell a three-star or any PWO candidate that there isn't a chance to earn a scholarship. That's the draw for them. "Come to ND and work hard, then we will put you on scholarship."

4. If you can steal a kid like Gutwald as a PWO, you do it.

 

[RDU Irish]

Kids like this are much better flex scholarship options than Monty VG or the scout team RB this year. This guy has a legit chance of earning a starting spot and pretty much all OL are going to red shirt a year and eat up 5 years of scholarship anyway - get the first two for free and if he earns it from there ... good for him! If he doesn't crack the two deep ever he probably doesn't get a scholarship.

 

[NDdomer2]

not to mention any kid who digs into ND recruiting is going to know we are never at 85 scholarships, we'll have some to spare.

 

[BobbyMac]

1. He is bigger and more athletic than Bockhorst. You have Matt Bockhorst on the team already in Trevor Ruhland.

2. If he doesn't hit his potential then no one bitches about "wasting" a scholarship.

3. It's a recruiting tactic. You aren't going to tell a three-star or any PWO candidate that there isn't a chance to earn a scholarship. That's the draw for them. "Come to ND and work hard, then we will put you on scholarship."

4. If you can steal a kid like Gutwald as a PWO, you do it.

1. I can't speak to athletic ability besides highlight film and the fact that Sparq reports Bockhorst was the fastest guard they tested last year. Size? Sparq has Bockhorst at 6-3.5, 295. I read last week that he weighed in at 302 recently. Gutwalt's listed measurements are all over the place. My guess is they aren't that far off and Bockhorst has a year to get even stronger. As far as comparing him to Ruhland, Bockhorst is far bigger NOW than Ruhland was coming out of HS and college coaches (screw recruitniks and talking heads) like Bockhorst NOW more than they ever liked Ruhland or Gutwald. Add to that Bockhorst is competing in a far superior program against much better competition everyday than either of the other two have.

2. I have ZERO problem with him as a PWO. I saw Sam Bush and Ryan Kilander play in HS and think they were great pick ups for PWO's. But for the kid to be quoted as saying 'earn a scholarship pretty fast' not 'have a chance to compete for a scholarship down the road' are two completely different things. So if he goes through his career at ND and gets a 4th year scholarship like Josh Anderson, great.

3. Obviously and ND has a track record of doing it often BUT your quoted line... "Come to ND and work hard, then we will put you on scholarship." is the INCORRECT way of pitching it. That better never be the way a recruit is approached.

4. Obviously.


My response was kickstarted by Gutwald's "earn a scholarship pretty fast" comment. IF true, there is something wrong with the process / thinking IMO.

 

[CincyDamer]

Apparently deciding tomorrow between Stanford and ND. I hate trees.

 

[House16]

Apparently deciding tomorrow between Stanford and ND. I hate trees.

Is that as a PWO or on scholarship?

 

[TheTurningPoint]

1. I can't speak to athletic ability besides highlight film and the fact that Sparq reports Bockhorst was the fastest guard they tested last year. Size? Sparq has Bockhorst at 6-3.5, 295. I read last week that he weighed in at 302 recently. Gutwalt's listed measurements are all over the place. My guess is they aren't that far off and Bockhorst has a year to get even stronger. As far as comparing him to Ruhland, Bockhorst is far bigger NOW than Ruhland was coming out of HS and college coaches (screw recruitniks and talking heads) like Bockhorst NOW more than they ever liked Ruhland or Gutwald. Add to that Bockhorst is competing in a far superior program against much better competition everyday than either of the other two have.

2. I have ZERO problem with him as a PWO. I saw Sam Bush and Ryan Kilander play in HS and think they were great pick ups for PWO's. But for the kid to be quoted as saying 'earn a scholarship pretty fast' not 'have a chance to compete for a scholarship down the road' are two completely different things. So if he goes through his career at ND and gets a 4th year scholarship like Josh Anderson, great.

3. Obviously and ND has a track record of doing it often BUT your quoted line... "Come to ND and work hard, then we will put you on scholarship." is the INCORRECT way of pitching it. That better never be the way a recruit is approached.

4. Obviously.


My response was kickstarted by Gutwald's "earn a scholarship pretty fast" comment. IF true, there is something wrong with the process / thinking IMO.

How do you supposed schools like Stanford and Notre Dame pitch a kid worthy of a scholarship then?

Half of recruiting is word play for scholarship kids, let alone walk-on kids that have high-level Division I offers.

Telling him he can earn a scholly if he performs well isn't taking advantage of the kid or the ultimate goal. Notre Dame recruited this kid like a scholarship player. Sanford was ultra aggressive and they even had the commits on this kid. Why? Bc they felt he had the potential to become a good offensive lineman and not just a body for practice.

I assume with you living in California, you have never seen Bockhorst in person, because he is closer to the short end of 6'2.

Bockhorst and Ruhland are undersized guards, who haven't played center. They are limited. Gutwald is a kid that could play Guard, Center or Right Tackle. Bockhorst and Ruhland are brawlers with limited athleticism. Heck, Bockhorst is still catching up with his coordination and yes, like you said, he has plenty of time to work on that so it's not a huge issue. But, Notre Dame is not going to take two undersized guards with limited athleticism in back to back classes.

 

[CincyDamer]

Is that as a PWO or on scholarship?

Pwo for us. I'd guess the same for trees but not 100%

 

[TheTurningPoint]

Pwo for us. I'd guess the same for trees but not 100%

PWO at both schools

 

[GBdomer]

How do you supposed schools like Stanford and Notre Dame pitch a kid worthy of a scholarship then?

Half of recruiting is word play for scholarship kids, let alone walk-on kids that have high-level Division I offers.

Telling him he can earn a scholly if he performs well isn't taking advantage of the kid or the ultimate goal. Notre Dame recruited this kid like a scholarship player. Sanford was ultra aggressive and they even had the commits on this kid. Why? Bc they felt he had the potential to become a good offensive lineman and not just a body for practice.

I assume with you living in California, you have never seen Bockhorst in person, because he is closer to the short end of 6'2.

Bockhorst and Ruhland are undersized guards, who haven't played center. They are limited. Gutwald is a kid that could play Guard, Center or Right Tackle. Bockhorst and Ruhland are brawlers with limited athleticism. Heck, Bockhorst is still catching up with his coordination and yes, like you said, he has plenty of time to work on that so it's not a huge issue. But, Notre Dame is not going to take two undersized guards with limited athleticism in back to back classes.

Well said, feel like you were arguing with SJB expect for the fact that his posts usually contain 10 words or less

 

[NDinL.A.]

Are we seriously debating whether telling a potential PWO with scholarship offers from several Pac 12 schools that innuendoes hard he can earn a scholarship is a BAD thing and a poor way to recruit? For real?

Kid is thinking about being a PWO to ND over free college football at other established schools...I think our pitch is just fine.

 

[BobbyMac]

I'm not sure where the disconnect is. I've been very clear on my position in this thread. Matt Gutwald as a PWO is a great thing. Matt Gutwald potentially earning a scholarship at some point in his career is also a great thing.

How do you supposed schools like Stanford and Notre Dame pitch a kid worthy of a scholarship then?

-- Come to ND as a PWO and compete for a scholarship. We've shown that we have as good of a record as anyone in the country for awarding scholarships to our deserving PWO's

NOT

"He laid out the whole situation for me and he thinks I am a really good player and I could earn a scholarship pretty fast." He was QUOTED as saying this. Now that doesn't mean a coach ever spoke those exact words to him. He may have even embellished the story or even been misquoted but they are in quotes so I take it as gospel until further notice. Sorry, old habit from my publishing business career.

I also wouldn't tell them as you wrote... "Come to ND and work hard, then we will put you on scholarship."

Half of recruiting is word play for scholarship kids, let alone walk-on kids that have high-level Division I offers.

Not sure if that's just a poor choice of words but that sounds like used car salesman lingo. Recruiting at ND should be about honesty. 100% honesty.

Telling him he can earn a scholly if he performs well isn't taking advantage of the kid or the ultimate goal. Notre Dame recruited this kid like a scholarship player. Sanford was ultra aggressive and they even had the commits on this kid. Why? Bc they felt he had the potential to become a good offensive lineman and not just a body for practice.

Completely agree and this is what I said from the beginning. It's also one of the aspects of the program I take great pride in. Love the fact that many PWO's get a year paid for, love the Joe Schmidt story even more.

I assume with you living in California, you have never seen Bockhorst in person, because he is closer to the short end of 6'2.

My use of Matt Bockhorst in this situation was an example. I could have used CJ Thorpe or Robert Hainsey just as easily. I have never seen Bockhorst in person. I did search his images with him standing next to many people and if you are saying he is just 6-2 I will just assume the kid is good at picking out high ground before the flash.

Bockhorst and Ruhland are undersized guards, who haven't played center. They are limited. Gutwald is a kid that could play Guard, Center or Right Tackle. Bockhorst and Ruhland are brawlers with limited athleticism. Heck, Bockhorst is still catching up with his coordination and yes, like you said, he has plenty of time to work on that so it's not a huge issue. But, Notre Dame is not going to take two undersized guards with limited athleticism in back to back classes.

No beef with that other than to say again, Bockhorst is bigger than Ruhland was and is competing against much better players at a much better program at the same point of their development . If Bockhorst is smart, he'll continue to put in the extra work at center

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Is this a Bruce Heggie situation?

 

[TheTurningPoint]

Is this a Bruce Heggie situation?

No, I doubt Notre Dame ends up getting him. Stanford is just too similar and has the better degree for what he wants. He can't go wrong with either, but I think there is a little more comfortability with Stanford.

 

[KPENN]

Chose Stanford

 

[GBdomer]

Great for him, couldn't have gone wrong. Good luck young sir

 

[ND NYC]

Griswold, Gutwald, Grisman...