'15 NJ QB Brandon Wimbush (Notre Dame Signed NLI)

[Sherm Sticky]

I stopped reading here, because Kelly literally talked about how they by design moved him out of the pocket and called bootlegs/misdirection because they knew he was good at that and would be effective. Literally, they talked specifically about why they did that... but you take umbrage to this fact for some reason and pretend it didn't happen. Why? If you are going to make stuff up why even post?

I should have fraised that differently.

He didn’t roll out of the pocket as often as you are making seem. I’ll rewatch the game and count the number of rollouts for Book. I’m sure you are correct. I just make things up and am stupid. I wasn’t smart enough to go to Notre Dame like you. I’m just to stupid to make a post without making things up...derp

And I’m confused are you saying it’s a bad thing that The coaches game plan was to have Book outside the pocket on every play.


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[Sherm Sticky]

I give Book the benefit of the doubt due to lack of game experience & I was thrilled at what he did in bowl game. That said, he threw 2 horrible picks that couldn’t be attributed to lack of first team reps. The first was the pick six vs Miami. The DB sat on that after reading it from a mile away. The second was the pick he threw in the bowl game. Not sure what he saw but he threw it right to the LSU CB.

Now that criticism doesn’t mean he won’t grow out of that with more experience but let’s keep this in perspective if he does end up the starter or fans will be calling for his replacement sonn enough.

You are correct about those two horrible picks. Good thing Wimbush doesn’t do things like that. I’ll concede with you all. Wimbush is clearly the better overall QB and gives the team the best chance to win. I’m sure he will light it up at Va Tech like he did at Miami.


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[phgreek]

Just when you'd finally gotten over Jimmy C, Franchise Phil becomes the Marcus Mariota of Michiana and ruins your realistic expectations theory for ND QB's.

Wasn't Crist rated higher...? I'll believe in the "potential" when it translates to something. For now he is phil with a long way to fall...with all the high school hype, and from the western PA cradle of HOF quarterbacks...and coming to ND...takes someone special to be great in the face of all of that. Takes someone transcendent to be great right away...

Odds are the guys who have thrown a collegiate pass are going to be the ones trotted out in 18 and 19.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Wasn't Crist rated higher...? I'll believe in the "potential" when it translates to something. For now he is phil with a long way to fall...with all the high school hype, and from the western PA cradle of HOF quarterbacks...and coming to ND...takes someone special to be great in the face of all of that. Takes someone transcendent to be great right away...



Odds are the guys who have thrown a collegiate pass are going to be the ones trotted out in 18 and 19.

Crist was a five star. But, I’m a bit confused on what Crist has to do with the original post you quoted.


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[BobbyMac]

Wasn't Crist rated higher...? I'll believe in the "potential" when it translates to something. For now he is phil with a long way to fall...with all the high school hype, and from the western PA cradle of HOF quarterbacks...and coming to ND...takes someone special to be great in the face of all of that. Takes someone transcendent to be great right away...

Odds are the guys who have thrown a collegiate pass are going to be the ones trotted out in 18 and 19.

I don't see what Crist has to do with someone just getting over Jimmy C.

And I didn't say Phil was going to play in '18. There are no odds that say he can't be seriously in the mix in '19 however.

 

[GATTACA!]

I stopped reading here, because Kelly literally talked about how they by design moved him out of the pocket and called bootlegs/misdirection because they knew he was good at that and would be effective. Literally, they talked specifically about why they did that... but you take umbrage to this fact for some reason and pretend it didn't happen. Why? If you are going to make stuff up why even post?

Wait we schemed to the strength of our QB?? Sound retarded.

 

[Irish#1]

Well, that is kind of the point of the board. To discuss ND football and the QB position would be an important topic to cover.

Yes, but I think his point is, some come across as being positive they have the answer when we don't earn our living coaching D1 or pro football and aren't part of any discussions the coaches have. In reality we know football, but very little compared to coaches who earn a living at it.

 

[arrowryan]

Wow, we can use this as a new, unique way in evaluating recruits.

The new and improved Irish Envy criteria to get an offer from Notre Dame:

1.) Do you have an offer from Michigan State?
2.) Have you had lasik eye surgery? If no, do you need it?
3.) Can you speak a foreign language? We prefer Spanish, por favor.

Follow this 3 step process, not only will we never have a kid not get passed admissions ever again, but we'll never lose again either!

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Speaking of Phil as a "lock" for great a QB (as some indicate)...

What's up with the great Barnett? I definitely remember posters saying he was the next big thing... Still at ASU? Actually going to contribute?

(also, I see a lot of similarities between their tapes)

 

[IrishLax]

What do you find so comical here?

Wimbush performed better passing in his first road start at BC?


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Your responses are what's comical.

Me: People are extrapolating way too much from one good half of football, there is no guarantee that Book will be able to perform that way over a whole season. Book does [list of things] better than Wimbush, but we need more information to crown someone as having "IT" because lots of guys look good for a game or two.

You: That’s complete BS “moved him outside the pocket.” + Oh and I’m sorry Book didn’t live up to your standards in his first ever career start...

That's a joke. It's like you are obsessed with hyperbole and arguing a straw man that isn't even close to the point that was made.

 

[IrishLax]

Speaking of Phil as a "lock" for great a QB (as some indicate)...

What's up with the great Barnett? I definitely remember posters saying he was the next big thing... Still at ASU? Actually going to contribute?

(also, I see a lot of similarities between their tapes)

Yeah, I don't think there's such a thing as a "can't miss" HS QB. Phil poorly at every camp he went to, and has a hitch in his throwing motion. By all accounts he was not accurate in passing drills or game situations, and is not a finished product. He has the tools to be a very good player, but will need to develop before he is game ready. Barnett was similar with two exceptions... less of a HS resume, and a prettier throwing motion. The encouraging thing with Phil is that HS resume and years of dominant play which suggests he's more effective in a real game with a system he's practiced and hopefully he can be coached up here.

 

[IrishLion]

People are looking at one half of one game (where he also made some bad mistakes, too) and thinking that he's going to consistently play at that level for a whole season. That's quite the extrapolation. That'd be like looking at Zaire vs LSU/Texas and anointing him as a great QB.

Book was bad against a bad North Carolina defense (27.7 QBR) in his one full start. All other play was spot duty so I won't hold those bad performances against him. So he basically has two total data points... one bad one and one good one.

Yet he has "IT"? Because of one game? Did Wimbush not have "IT" in isolated instances on the road at MSU and at home against USC?

What we know is that Book has a quicker release than Wimbush, throws more accurately on short and intermediate routs than Wimbush, and was effective in one game where they moved him outside the pocket. That's it. That's all we know.

Oh, and comparing Dayne Crist's mentality to Wimbush's...? Really?

I'm with you on the fact that we only have two data points. The competition is gonna have to play out (and solve itself!) over Spring ball. You can't possibly make a fair comparison between Book and Wimbush in terms of "total package." Book doesn't have enough reps under his belt yet.

But it's kind of funny looking at the bolded part... that is literally everything we needed to win two of the three games we lost last year lol. Hitting EQ on two or three of the misfired slants against UGA might very well change the game (and Wimbush was ineffective running, so it's not like that was a make-or-break that would've changed the entire status quo), and being able to throw a few curveballs at Stanford by moving Book around and hitting more YAC yardage than Wimbush allows might have prevented the collapse.

QB competition/decision could be very interesting, especially since Long has been open about the fact that they're gonna need to throw for ~300/game in '18.

I'm still putting my money on Wimbush getting the nod, though, because there won't be enough visible separation in the practice setting, and BK's ego will tell him that the staff can fix Wimbush over the summer, no doubt about it.

And it's true that Wimbush is the best option if they can consistently get the Wimbush that completes ~55% of his passes, like he did against Sparty and NC State.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Yeah, I don't think there's such a thing as a "can't miss" HS QB. Phil poorly at every camp he went to, and has a hitch in his throwing motion. By all accounts he was not accurate in passing drills or game situations, and is not a finished product. He has the tools to be a very good player, but will need to develop before he is game ready. Barnett was similar with two exceptions... less of a HS resume, and a prettier throwing motion. The encouraging thing with Phil is that HS resume and years of dominant play which suggests he's more effective in a real game with a system he's practiced and hopefully he can be coached up here.

Barnett's throwing motion prettier than Phil's? In my eyes, they're very similar...Both super lanky, long, slow motions...

Both great at "creating" plays, and finishing them with completions, albeit, via unorthodox throwing motion.

 

[IrishLax]

I'm with you on the fact that we only have two data points. The competition is gonna have to play out (and solve itself!) over Spring ball. You can't possibly make a fair comparison between Book and Wimbush in terms of "total package." Book doesn't have enough reps under his belt yet.

But it's kind of funny looking at the bolded part... that is literally everything we needed to win two of the three games we lost last year lol. Hitting EQ on two or three of the misfired slants against UGA might very well change the game (and Wimbush was ineffective running, so it's not like that was a make-or-break that would've changed the entire status quo), and being able to throw a few curveballs at Stanford by moving Book around and hitting more YAC yardage than Wimbush allows might have prevented the collapse.

QB competition/decision could be very interesting, especially since Long has been open about the fact that they're gonna need to throw for ~300/game in '18.

I'm still putting my money on Wimbush getting the nod, though, because there won't be enough visible separation in the practice setting, and BK's ego will tell him that the staff can fix Wimbush over the summer, no doubt about it.

And it's true that Wimbush is the best option if they can consistently get the Wimbush that completes ~55% of his passes, like he did against Sparty and NC State.

Yes, and I think Book is the best choice for that reason. If you're less concerned with explosive plays in the running game and more concerned with passing consistency then Book has to be the guy. We want to run multi-TE offense that heavily uses screens and crossers... Book it obviously better suited. He gets the ball out MUCH faster on screens and diagnoses plays quicker. In limited action, he made a lot of mistakes on deep balls which were worse than Wimbush's missed-it-by-a-hair overthrows. But what WRs do we have that are going to get consistent separation deep?

Personally, I think a 2 QB situation can work if Book is the starter but I'm not sure about the opposite. If you game plan for Book, it's easier to insert Wimbush for a package of plays and hit play-actions over the top or try to generate explosive runs. If you game plan for Wimbush, it's hard to insert Book the other way unless you are in a situation like a bowl game where you have tons of practice time to come up with an alternate game plan.

If Wimbush does win the starting job, I don't think it'll be for loyalty. It'll be for upside. If they can fix his mechanics on screens and get him to throw with touch+anticipation on timing routes then all of a sudden you have a guy who can break a 50+ yard TD run at any time and he doesn't need to be a 60% passer if they have to honestly defend every play in the playbook.

 

[snoopdog]

Well if Wimbush is the starter, the first game will make things interesting.

IMO Michigan will load the box forcing Wimbush to make quality passes. If he doesn’t, how long will he stay at QB? A half ? Three Quarters?

So here’s the issue, you spend your entire off season and training camp developing an offense you may be discarding after the first half of the season. That’s exactly what happened at LSU and just as likely to happen against Michigan

 

[EvilleIrish]

Well if Wimbush is the starter, the first game will make things interesting.

IMO Michigan will load the box forcing Wimbush to make quality passes. If he doesn’t, how long will he stay at QB? A half ? Three Quarters?

So here’s the issue, you spend your entire off season and training camp developing an offense you may be discarding after the first half of the season. That’s exactly what happened at LSU and just as likely to happen against Michigan

Also exactly what happened in the 2011 opener.

 

[GowerND11]

Barnett's throwing motion prettier than Phil's? In my eyes, they're very similar...Both super lanky, long, slow motions...

Both great at "creating" plays, and finishing them with completions, albeit, via unorthodox throwing motion.

I've said this a million times, Phil has a quick release. He has a small (correctable) hitch, but his throwing motion is anything but long. He gets the ball right up to his ear and drives forward. For some unknown reason, many analysts are starting to not like this "shot put" style throwing motion in favor of baseball style windups (though not AS long as a baseball wind up, those in QBs lately have been occurring). Phil actually throws the ball exactly how I was taught to throw the ball (George Curry, and Ron Powlus Sr.), how I've taught how to throw the ball, and how any QB coach I've encountered teaches it.

 

[PANDFAN]

I've said this a million times, Phil has a quick release. He has a small (correctable) hitch, but his throwing motion is anything but long. He gets the ball right up to his ear and drives forward. For some unknown reason, many analysts are starting to not like this "shot put" style throwing motion in favor of baseball style windups (though not AS long as a baseball wind up, those in QBs lately have been occurring). Phil actually throws the ball exactly how I was taught to throw the ball (George Curry, and Ron Powlus Sr.), how I've taught how to throw the ball, and how any QB coach I've encountered teaches it.

must have gone to the bulldog qb camp

 

[GowerND11]

must have gone to the bulldog qb camp

Every year from 4th to 11th grades.

 

[IrishLax]

Barnett's throwing motion prettier than Phil's? In my eyes, they're very similar...Both super lanky, long, slow motions...

Both great at "creating" plays, and finishing them with completions, albeit, via unorthodox throwing motion.

I think their throwing motions are almost polar opposites. Jurkovec has a hitch in his throw, and has a quick release. He holds the ball up high, and then flicks his wrist. I don't know anything about QB throwing mechanics, but what people generally don't like about this kind of throwing motion is that it is considered "pushing" the ball and people think it leads to inconsistent accuracy (especially when you can't set your base) because it isn't "fluid." It's a very compact and quick throwing motion, though.

Barnett holds the ball in the center of his chest and then cocks it back to launch in one extended motion. No hitch, one elongated motion that is about twice as long as Phil's.

 

[IrishLax]

I've said this a million times, Phil has a quick release. He has a small (correctable) hitch, but his throwing motion is anything but long. He gets the ball right up to his ear and drives forward. For some unknown reason, many analysts are starting to not like this "shot put" style throwing motion in favor of baseball style windups (though not AS long as a baseball wind up, those in QBs lately have been occurring). Phil actually throws the ball exactly how I was taught to throw the ball (George Curry, and Ron Powlus Sr.), how I've taught how to throw the ball, and how any QB coach I've encountered teaches it.

I wasted my time typing a post lol... wish I had seen this. This is basically a way better phrasing of what I was trying to say.

 

[phgreek]

Crist was a five star. But, I’m a bit confused on what Crist has to do with the original post you quoted.


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Seemed to me like the reference to Clawson was speaking to my generic all world comment...so I took it to be representative of the performance of all world (read 5 stars) guys at ND....and that we just needed to wait for and get another...like Phil. Otherwise I missed the point of the post.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Your responses are what's comical.

Me: People are extrapolating way too much from one good half of football, there is no guarantee that Book will be able to perform that way over a whole season. Book does [list of things] better than Wimbush, but we need more information to crown someone as having "IT" because lots of guys look good for a game or two.

You: That’s complete BS “moved him outside the pocket.” + Oh and I’m sorry Book didn’t live up to your standards in his first ever career start...

That's a joke. It's like you are obsessed with hyperbole and arguing a straw man that isn't even close to the point that was made.

Like I said not all of us have brains to go to Notre Dame. Some of us are just stupid and bow down to people like you who are always correct.

Wimbush buckled under the pressure every time his team fell behind. I thought Book bringing the team back down by 8 points to tie and then down 3 points for the win in the fourth quarter against an overrated SEC defense was impressive. More impressive than anything I saw all year from Wimbush. And as I mentioned earlier I thought Book outplayed BW in the spring game. I also thought Book played well (not bad) in his first start at UNC. But again you are correct, as you are always correct and can never be wrong that it's to early to say Book has whatever "It" is.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Yes, and I think Book is the best choice for that reason. If you're less concerned with explosive plays in the running game and more concerned with passing consistency then Book has to be the guy. We want to run multi-TE offense that heavily uses screens and crossers... Book it obviously better suited. He gets the ball out MUCH faster on screens and diagnoses plays quicker. In limited action, he made a lot of mistakes on deep balls which were worse than Wimbush's missed-it-by-a-hair overthrows. But what WRs do we have that are going to get consistent separation deep?

Personally, I think a 2 QB situation can work if Book is the starter but I'm not sure about the opposite. If you game plan for Book, it's easier to insert Wimbush for a package of plays and hit play-actions over the top or try to generate explosive runs. If you game plan for Wimbush, it's hard to insert Book the other way unless you are in a situation like a bowl game where you have tons of practice time to come up with an alternate game plan.

If Wimbush does win the starting job, I don't think it'll be for loyalty. It'll be for upside. If they can fix his mechanics on screens and get him to throw with touch+anticipation on timing routes then all of a sudden you have a guy who can break a 50+ yard TD run at any time and he doesn't need to be a 60% passer if they have to honestly defend every play in the playbook.

100% agree with you. nailed every single point.

 

[ND88]

I mean, Wimbush is going to start game 1 come fall. Right??

Traditionally, it’s been Kelly’s MO to fit a square peg in a round hole, especially if that square peg looks like it should be the best circle on the field.

Anyway, for all we know, Avery Davis might have the skills to pay the bills.

Kizer dispelled any notion that the spot can’t be filled by an unknown / once ignored quantity.

All we know with certainty is that someone will step up, by sheer will or when Kelly decides to go with a circle-shaped heir apparent.

 

[ScooterIrish]

I mean, Wimbush is going to start game 1 come fall. Right??

Traditionally, it’s been Kelly’s MO to fit a square peg in a round hole, especially if that square peg looks like it should be the best circle on the field.

Anyway, for all we know, Avery Davis might have the skills to pay the bills.

Kizer dispelled any notion that the spot can’t be filled by an unknown / once ignored quantity.

All we know with certainty is that someone will step up, by sheer will or when Kelly decides to go with a circle-shaped heir apparent.

Wait Wimbush is now a square peg? I thought he was supposed to finally be the perfect QB for Kelly?

 

[Irishize]

You are correct about those two horrible picks. Good thing Wimbush doesn’t do things like that. I’ll concede with you all. Wimbush is clearly the better overall QB and gives the team the best chance to win. I’m sure he will light it up at Va Tech like he did at Miami.


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I’m not saying Wimbush is the answer b/c he was frustratingly horrible in NDs final two losses. Hard to crucify him on the Georgia game as it was the opener & they faced one of the best Ds in the nation.

I’m just saying be careful what you wish for b/c when teams can gameplan for Book, his learning curve will get a lot steeper. And if he is the opening day starter, he doesn’t exactly get any tune-up games to build from.

As a fan of the team, my hope is that Wimbush can get past his mental issues and get a firm hold on the starting position. Problem is, even if he looks great in practice & the Spring game, we won’t know for sure until the lights get brighter in the scUM game.

I’m realistic enough to accept the fact that the liklihood of Brandon overcoming his in-game issues is slim, so I would support Book 100% if that’s what ND needs to win. Just know if he’s throwing as many or more picks than TDs and it’s perceived to be costing ND wins, the Phil Jurkovec Era will start sooner than most had hoped.

 

[Irishize]

Like I said not all of us have brains to go to Notre Dame. Some of us are just stupid and bow down to people like you who are always correct.

Wimbush buckled under the pressure every time his team fell behind. I thought Book bringing the team back down by 8 points to tie and then down 3 points for the win in the fourth quarter against an overrated SEC defense was impressive. More impressive than anything I saw all year from Wimbush. And as I mentioned earlier I thought Book outplayed BW in the spring game. I also thought Book played well (not bad) in his first start at UNC. But again you are correct, as you are always correct and can never be wrong that it's to early to say Book has whatever "It" is.

While BW did show he couldn’t handle the bright lights in prime time on the road in hostile territory, I would argue he didn’t buckle under pressure after NCSt went up 7-0 after a blocked punt score. Wimbush smoothly led his team back in two plays: a long run by Adams & a TD pass on a crossing route (IIRC) to Smythe to tie the score.

 

[ThePiombino]

I’m not saying Wimbush is the answer b/c he was frustratingly horrible in NDs final two losses. Hard to crucify him on the Georgia game as it was the opener & they faced one of the best Ds in the nation.

I’m just saying be careful what you wish for b/c when teams can gameplan for Book, his learning curve will get a lot steeper. And if he is the opening day starter, he doesn’t exactly get any tune-up games to build from.

As a fan of the team, my hope is that Wimbush can get past his mental issues and get a firm hold on the starting position. Problem is, even if he looks great in practice & the Spring game, we won’t know for sure until the lights get brighter in the scUM game.

I’m realistic enough to accept the fact that the liklihood of Brandon overcoming his in-game issues is slim, so I would support Book 100% if that’s what ND needs to win. Just know if he’s throwing as many or more picks than TDs and it’s perceived to be costing ND wins, the Phil Jurkovec Era will start sooner than most had hoped.

No, it wasn't.

 

[ACamp1900]

He's too dynamic a play maker to just sit... it'll be an interesting Spring that much is for sure.