Wasting Freshmen Eligibility!!!

[irishog77]

I think he's still arguing that Crist should be our starter. I could be wrong...recalling previous threads.

Oh yeah, you may be right, Jayhawk. Well, then the entire logic of 5th years using the Crist analogy would be out the window with this guy!

 

[gkautz10]

I somewhat agree with the poster. I read an article in SI i believe last year and it broke down 5th year players on all top 25 teams at the end of the season. Teams such as Alabama, Texas, LSU, and the likes had a significant amount of players that were 5th years. They correlated that to wins and it was a very good breakdown. Does anyone else remember this article by chance?? I am scouring the internet for it but to no avail.

 

[JohnShade]

And as far as the OP goes: how awesome is it that Crist didn't play his FR year, preserving another year of eligibility for ND next year? That's worked out awesome for everybody.

But this doesn't make much sense either. If he couldn't beat out sophomore 3-star Tommy Rees as a true senior, WHY would he have been taking snaps away, as a freshman, from 5-star sophomore and QB of the future who needed all the snaps he could get Jimmy Clausen?

Crist isn't ready NOW. He definitely wasn't ready then. I've read the same argument about Deion Walker. "Well, look how well that redshirt worked out." But again if he can't get on the field now, he probably didn't deserve to be taking any minutes away from anyone when he was a freshman.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I somewhat agree with the poster. I read an article in SI i believe last year and it broke down 5th year players on all top 25 teams at the end of the season. Teams such as Alabama, Texas, LSU, and the likes had a significant amount of players that were 5th years. They correlated that to wins and it was a very good breakdown. Does anyone else remember this article by chance?? I am scouring the internet for it but to no avail.

IIRC, that article was correlating 5Y OL with the success of elite teams. Not 5Ys generally.

 

[irishog77]

I don't think anybody is doubting the validity of 5th years though, gkautz. It's done on a case-by-case basis though and according to team needs/strengths/weaknesses. Only the coach can make that call and each position/individual is different.

Plus, ND can't oversign and it views the scholarship as a binding deal for BOTH parties...something other coaches and schools do not.

 

[gkautz10]

IIRC, that article was correlating 5Y OL with the success of elite teams. Not 5Ys generally.

ya i thought it was focusing in on a specific position, but wasnt quite sure. thanks

 

[irishog77]

But this doesn't make much sense either. If he couldn't beat out sophomore 3-star Tommy Rees as a true senior, WHY would he have been taking snaps away, as a freshman, from 5-star sophomore and QB of the future who needed all the snaps he could get Jimmy Clausen?

Crist isn't ready NOW. He definitely wasn't ready then. I've read the same argument about Deion Walker. "Well, look how well that redshirt worked out." But again if he can't get on the field now, he probably didn't deserve to be taking any minutes away from anyone when he was a freshman.

I brought up Crist because he was the top pro-style QB coming out of high school. At most schools, he could have either started or played as a true freshman. He's the type of recruit coaches build their programs around and used to show why other recruits should come to their school. Sadly for us, he couldn't cut it then, nor can he do it now. Him having that extra year next year is irrelevant at this point. But coach Kelly does think guys like Chase, Troy, the Atkinson's, Koyack, etc. can cut it...NOW. Why POTENTIALLY hold onto another year for a guy that may or may NOT ever come to fruition??

 

[notredomer23]

We could be 6-0 and this cat would still be crying

 

[Big23Head]

IIRC, that article was correlating 5Y OL with the success of elite teams. Not 5Ys generally.

Definitely agree with that. There might be a slight difference in telling a young DL "pin your ears back and go kid, use that natural talent". Doesn't really work on the OL side, you have to know the offense and have the size to play.

 

[Who'saWildManNow]

We are rebuilding not reloading. BK has stated that he is striving to get to the point where he does not need to play the freshman.

Play them now. Some of these kids (Lynch, Tuitt, Niklas, GAIII) are athletic specimens we have not had the fortune of seeing around ND in a while.

Play them now... With Kapron and Teo and Johnson... So when it comes time for them to shoulder the load, they are ready.

BK will recruit talent equal to and in some positions better than them, to provide reloading depth.

If ND goes 10-2 this year and wins a bowl game it would be HUGE for the program.

When we can look at our depth chart and see Tuitt, Nix, Lynch, Tee, Darby, Niklas etc etc as Jrs and Srs and have young elite sophomores waiting in the wings.. then the freshman can sit.

 

[jason_h537]

This is a case by case situation. If it is a player you feel will develop and contribute later than RS him. If it is someone who can provide needed help now but will likely never be a full time starter, why save a year?

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

Having kids ready to play next year with game time under their belt is a good thing. If the kids can help, let them help.

Tuitt and Lynch! come on they are dominating.

George, yeah he's not ready. KO return for a TD.

Ishaq, getting important snaps.

Cam playing ST, and getting some snaps.

Hurcules, he has started.

ETC. If they are ready, play them. Culture of winning and if you are ready to play as a Freshman then you will play.

Go Irish, I love it!

 

[Rhode Irish]

Seriously? This is a thread?

 

[Old Man Mike]

I will just reaffirm some of the earlier points:

1). the value of 5th years to winning is almost always in regards to offensive linemen and quarterbacks. All other positions tend to play and move on. In olden times you almost never saw a University of Michigan or Notre Dame O-Lineman play in year one, and they consistently fielded the most feared O-Lines in the country stocked with fifth years. Unless one is talking about injury-related "extra" years, this is much less a strategy at other positions.

2). Kelly came in and the first thing he told us was that we/he had to "win now". He uttered that famous line: Notre Dame doesn't have a five year plan; we have a five minute plan. He also said that every job on the field is open, and that even if you're Manti Te'o or Michael Floyd, you're going to have to earn it in competition. He then said that if freshmen prove to him that they belong on the field due to their work in practice, then he will be "forced" to play them, because they earned it. And he went on to prove that by taking Kona off the scout team last year and into the game halfway through the season.

As Whiskey said, I believe that putting your players on the field who give you the best chance to win is not only best strategy for winning now, by definition, but it is best strategy for winning later. It is best strategy for winning later because your best players are now battle-experienced [regardless of age] AND you have an absolutely genuine/provable argument to recruits that if they are ready they will play. This then gets you more great players.

Regarding the OP: regretfully this gentleman is one of a small number of posters whose writings I now generally just scroll past without reading them. I didn't take this strategy lightly, but the past few weeks were just outrageous.

 

[Mr. Larson]

I think the thread starter is stupid and wrong, and a jerk, but if Farley and Daniels play in the remaining seven games something is wrong. They're WRs and if they didn't appear in the AF game (where Deion Walker was on the field for multiple series) they probably shouldn't show up this year. Maybe they end up not good enough to get a fifth year when the time comes, but there's no sense in playing them just to play them, either. Councell was a highly rated LB who hasn't played yet and would be a mistake. Brown could still show up, but since he didn't play against AF (or did he? someone check), it doesn't seem like he will.

You're new so I'll just point out that posts can be called out as stupid, wrong, or jerkish, but not posters. Same team; differing opinions.

 

[bigedefense]

I am a big supporter of Brian Kelly and believe the guy is much smarter than I, however I am in total disagreement with him using some of our freshman wasting their eligibility.

I watched on Saturday as we put Chase Hounsell on the field. I was shaking my head. WHY are playing a freshman in place of several other kids like Cwynar, Hafis or Kona?? I think Chase did an admirable job, but it was not head and shoulders above what any those above listed would do. So, why would you spend a kids eligibility for a full 5th year to give him 20-30 snaps as a freshman.

People are going to say, how do you know he would stick around for a 5th year? Well, in most cases kids at the OL, DL and even LB will take the 5th if they get the chance. There are those rare talents like Tuitt and Lynch who will likely bolt after 3, but they are the very few minority.

Some people will say that we do not need to worry as BK is going to fill the roster with tons of talent and we won't need 5th year kids. Well, that is a big ASSUMPTION!! We are into BK's third recruiting campaign and there remains some big holes going into next year. We really missed both of the last two years on numbers of premier RB, WR, and DB's.

My thought when looking at a kid like Chase on Saturday was: Are those few snaps worth losing a kid like this for an entire 5th year campaign. For all those who bash Harrison Smith, where would our defensive backfield be without him this season??? Yes, he would have been a perfect kid to put on special teams 5 years ago with his speed. Instead, he took a year to mature and now we have a experienced safety who leads that backfield. Without Hayseed, you all would be watching someone like Austin Collinsworth with his head spinning or Motta showing up late on tackles.

I believe it is very important to save every kid you can for 5th year eligibility unless the talent is obviously going to take them to the NFL. Those players are the Teo's, Tuitt's, Nix or Floyd. Not a Chase Hounsell, Cam McDaniel, Josh Atkinson.

I am like Jonesman in a way. I am a big supporter of michigan football. I support them to lose every game they play! I hope they lose their inner squad scrimmage. Isn't this kind of the way ole Jonesman is supporting? If so, I am right there with you brah (my daily HCTI reference)

Come on dude! Seriously, let it go. You don't like Coach Kelly. You don't like Rees. You do like bitching about everything. Are you kin to my ex-wife?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I am like Jonesman in a way. I am a big supporter of michigan football. I support them to lose every game they play! I hope they lose their inner squad scrimmage. Isn't this kind of the way ole Jonesman is supporting? If so, I am right there with you brah (my daily HCTI reference)

Come on dude! Seriously, let it go. You don't like Coach Kelly. You don't like Rees. You do like bitching about everything. Are you kin to my ex-wife?

Ouch...

 

[TerryTate]

We can close this thread. Look at Jonesman's last posts

1) Josh Atkinson and Chase houndshell eligibility in Josh's thread

2) Starting this thread

3) Some stupid comment about charlie weis

4) Removing helmet stickers for underperformers, in his opinion

5) Defense sucks

6) Hendrix is better than Rees

...

 

[irish4ever]

Holding a kid back from playing when in their freshman year just to save that 5th yr. eligibillty can lead to them being disgruntled for not getting that opporthnity to play right away. I say if they're ready to go, let 'em play! If they need further development, hold 'em back. Trust in Kelly (and the staff)!

 

[Domina Nostra]

Daniels' father has confirmed that Davaris is red shirting this year. Jalen Brown confirmed the coaching staff's intent to red shirt him as well, but I can't find it atm.

Farley, Grace, and Councell all seem very unlikely to play this year given the depth chart and their absence from any of the #1 ST units.

I had heard that Grace and Daniels were going to get some playing time. I figured the other guys may or may not get ST time, seeing as we are struggling there right now.

 

[Veer option]

You see wasting I see getting the younger guys experience for the next season.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I say use all the freshmen that are ready.

If they can help the team, put them out there. We need to get some of these young guys experience, especially the DBs. Also, frosh battling for playing time will only push the upperclassmen harder.

Who suggests they know more about this situation than Kelly?

 

[jonesman]

Sorry for evening giving my opinion on this guys. As for those who are convinced I hate Kelly and the like, your wrong. Does that mean I have to agree with him on all things? NO.

When we were in our 0-2 funk, I was one of the people supporting our team and saying how we did not need fans booing the players at the stadium.

I will sit back for a little while and just watch you guys because my negativity on Rees and Kelly has made me damaged goods.

Go IRISH!

 

[IrishSteelhead]

You see wasting I see getting the younger guys experience for the next season.

I see this, and also a coach that realizes the future is NOW, and the fan base is sick and f-ing tired of "waiting for next year." Play everyone that can make an impact, and play them now. Losers wait till next year, and our guys aren't losers.