All Things Star Wars Thread (Spoilers)

[PolishDomer]

It's why I'm pretty firmly in the camp of saying the only truly good Star Wars movies are ANH and ESB. People rightfully bag on RotJ for the Ewoks and Han having nothing to do but Leia being Luke's sister is such a stupid plot twist/contrivance. I get that it comes up during the duel with Vader but it reeks of fanfiction and shrank the universe so much.

Dont get me started on the Expanded Universe bs that Disney pulled as "Legends"...so many good storylines there

 

[stlnd01]

It's why I'm pretty firmly in the camp of saying the only truly good Star Wars movies are ANH and ESB. People rightfully bag on RotJ for the Ewoks and Han having nothing to do but Leia being Luke's sister is such a stupid plot twist/contrivance. I get that it comes up during the duel with Vader but it reeks of fanfiction and shrank the universe so much.

Rogue One is excellent. The third best and could stand alone as a compelling movie. And I actually liked The Last Jedi, though it’s not nearly at the level of New Hope and Empire. And of course exists mainly in response to them.

 

[calvegas04]

Rogue One is excellent. The third best and could stand alone as a compelling movie. And I actually liked The Last Jedi, though it’s not nearly at the level of New Hope and Empire. And of course exists mainly in response to them.

Rouge One and Andor together is top tier Star Wars

 

[greyhammer90]

Dont get me started on the Expanded Universe bs that Disney pulled as "Legends"...so many good storylines there

Oh my sweet darling Grand Admiral Thrawn and Mara Jade

Rogue One is excellent. The third best and could stand alone as a compelling movie. And I actually liked The Last Jedi, though it’s not nearly at the level of New Hope and Empire. And of course exists mainly in response to them.

I'll die on the hill that Rouge One is garbage but I get why people like it. You get major cred points from me for recognizing that tLJ, while a very flawed movie, is clearly the best of the new trilogy. Poor Rian Johnson took the hit for JJ's bullshit.

 

[GATTACA!]

Fuck the last jedi.

Abrams made a solid, albeit safe, foundation for the sequels. The plot was a rehash but the characters were good and had interesting avenues to develop. Johnson took it all and threw it in the trash just for the sake of being subversive. He ruined Luke. Completely misunderstood the entire character. Wasted Finn by turning him into a lame pointless sidekick. Gave us his subplot/love story with cringe Rose. Canto Bights was prequel quality. Turned Poe into a retard. Flying around making yo mamma jokes. The first order is now a complete incompetent joke. Wasted Domhnall Gleeson. Practically had him turning to the camera and winking his shit was so cheesy. Marry Poppins Leia. In the end not even having the balls to turn Rey to the dark side.

FFS I fucking hate that movie. Cracked the door wide open on me not giving a shit about Star Wars anymore.

 

[Notre Dame Joe]

Oh my sweet darling Grand Admiral Thrawn and Mara Jade

I'll die on the hill that Rouge One is garbage but I get why people like it. You get major cred points from me for recognizing that tLJ, while a very flawed movie, is clearly the best of the new trilogy. Poor Rian Johnson took the hit for JJ's bullshit.

That is because Rogue 1 isn't a Star Wars movie. It's a war movie that takes place in the Star Wars setting.

 

[stlnd01]

Fuck the last jedi.

Abrams made a solid, albeit safe, foundation for the sequels. The plot was a rehash but the characters were good and had interesting avenues to develop. Johnson took it all and threw it in the trash just for the sake of being subversive. He ruined Luke. Completely misunderstood the entire character. Wasted Finn by turning him into a lame pointless sidekick. Gave us his subplot/love story with cringe Rose. Canto Bights was prequel quality. Turned Poe into a retard. Flying around making yo mamma jokes. The first order is now a complete incompetent joke. Wasted Domhnall Gleeson. Practically had him turning to the camera and winking his shit was so cheesy. Marry Poppins Leia. In the end not even having the balls to turn Rey to the dark side.

FFS I fucking hate that movie. Cracked the door wide open on me not giving a shit about Star Wars anymore.

I don't have strong feelings about most of the third-trilogy characters but will agree to disagree on that one. The notion that Luke - who let's face it has seen A LOT of shit he never asked for - might be burned out on the entire Jedi enterprise and just done with all of it, is one of the most human and relatable things about that character.

 

[BilboBaggins]

You get major cred points from me for recognizing that tLJ, while a very flawed movie, is clearly the best of the new trilogy. Poor Rian Johnson took the hit for JJ's bullshit.

No man. Just... no. It's an abomination.

 

[BilboBaggins]

We, as a society, need to normalize retconning.

It should be socially acceptable for Disney to say "you know what... these sucked. Our bad. We are going to scratch all of that and start over." Fans get to shitcan bad work, corporations get to print money with another attempt... it's a win-win.

"Hey everyone, good news... we agree that the last Game of Thrones season was hot garbage, so instead of making other shows on top of the carcass of the GoT universe, we've decided to just redo the season. See you in two years."

*money machine starts printing*

 

[IrishLion]

I liked TLJ because I think the overarching “story” of Star Wars required subversion.

Sometimes subversion for subversions sake is lazy. But I think setting Luke up in the first movie as a hero in hiding, cutting himself off from the force because of mistakes he’s made, was a good way to shift the narrative towards a new era.

The execution of subplots and focus on certain characters wasn’t great, but the main story, setting Rey up as a true “nobody” makes the most sense within the lore of Star Wars and the Force.

Finding Luke just to bring him back as the badass hero warrior would have ALSO been lazy, so I think TLJ did what it could to jump into the deep end in terms of pushing to something new. They still gave him a hero’s end, and let him join the Force the same way Obi-Wan did.

Not sure where it was supposed to have gone after Snoke got killed off, except the obvious Kylo vs Rey.

I also don’t get the argument that TLJ ruined/went against Luke’s established character. My guy went from “kind of a whiney bitch” to “young adult with lack of confidence” to “wise Jedi master” in three films, and only a few meaningful events actually shown to us.

Is it a thing for people that read the EU and expect the hero Luke from those books to have acted differently? I didn’t read any of the EU except some grade school books back in the day that expanded on some kid-level Vader stuff, so that’s an honest question lol

 

[greyhammer90]

Fuck the last jedi.

Abrams made a solid, albeit safe, foundation for the sequels. The plot was a rehash but the characters were good and had interesting avenues to develop. Johnson took it all and threw it in the trash just for the sake of being subversive. He ruined Luke. Completely misunderstood the entire character.

Nah man. Anything that was "ruined" about Luke was done by Abrams. Abrams put Luke on a planet being a hermit, under no apparent strain or danger, while his friends were struggling against an existential threat. Abrams made it so that Luke was the person who had disinvolved himself with the rebellion. So Abrams put Johnson in a situation where he had to explain why Luke would do that. Johnson looked at the situation he was given and correctly thought "the only reason Luke would exile himself like this is if he thought it was the right thing to do" and he came up with one of the only plausible explanations available. Not only that, but its an explanation rooted in an idea that has been previously strongly hinted at in the larger universe (that the force is self balancing, and the large existence of a light side of the force necessarily means there will be an equal rise of the dark).

Also Luke's death is basically perfect. It 1) establishes that he has become so powerful in the ways of the force that he can do things that are thought impossible, 2) shows the audience what they think a Jedi should be (a guy with a lightsaber taking on the whole Empire), and 3) shows the audience what a Jedi ACTUALLY IS (a monk who is knowingly killing himself to save as many lives as possible during an evacuation through pacifist meditation).

There are a lot of criticisms for the tLJ I agree with. It's cringey Marvel dialouge, its occasionally preachy tone, a few really bad effects, etc. I will always defend Johnson's larger story points though. He was given shit, turned it into bronze, and then watched as Disney turned his bronze back into a shit sandwich.

 

[tussin]

The entire sequel trilogy is a joke and is the primary driver of the franchise's cultural decline (along with inevitable Disney oversaturation). The characters were all terrible and the story unoriginal. It's why nothing from the sequels has had any staying power whatsoever with fans.

Rey was a Mary Sue. Kylo was an emo boy. Finn was irrelevant, Poe was a joke. Rose was Rose. And then they massacred each and every one of the OT characters on top of it all.

I saw a likely fake news story that Disney is considering rebooting the franchise and acting like the sequel trilogy never happened. That would be great but they don't have the guts to do it.

 

[IrishLax]

I liked TLJ because I think the overarching “story” of Star Wars required subversion.

Sometimes subversion for subversions sake is lazy. But I think setting Luke up in the first movie as a hero in hiding, cutting himself off from the force because of mistakes he’s made, was a good way to shift the narrative towards a new era.

The execution of subplots and focus on certain characters wasn’t great, but the main story, setting Rey up as a true “nobody” makes the most sense within the lore of Star Wars and the Force.

Finding Luke just to bring him back as the badass hero warrior would have ALSO been lazy, so I think TLJ did what it could to jump into the deep end in terms of pushing to something new. They still gave him a hero’s end, and let him join the Force the same way Obi-Wan did.

Not sure where it was supposed to have gone after Snoke got killed off, except the obvious Kylo vs Rey.

I also don’t get the argument that TLJ ruined/went against Luke’s established character. My guy went from “kind of a whiney bitch” to “young adult with lack of confidence” to “wise Jedi master” in three films, and only a few meaningful events actually shown to us.

Is it a thing for people that read the EU and expect the hero Luke from those books to have acted differently? I didn’t read any of the EU except some grade school books back in the day that expanded on some kid-level Vader stuff, so that’s an honest question lol

This is what I don't really get... how anyone thinks it's an enjoyable / good movie irrespective of plot holes or other issues. The movie just sucks start to finish.

The opening scene with Poe cracking your mama jokes, then you're supposed to get this heartfelt thing where Rose's sister makes a huge sacrifice to save the day and blow up the enemy ship which is then totally undermined by what happens with Finn at the end of the movie.

Leia gets blasted into space... and then survives by force magic-ing her way back onto the ship. Sure. A bold movie would've actually just killed her right there and then and could've explored how Kylo couldn't pull the trigger // but still probably feels a lot of guilt because he still loved his mom or whatever. You know, basic character development.

Mutiny against purple hair that is a miscommunication trope so bad it makes young adult fiction authors blush.

And on and on and on. It's a bad, boring movie with pacing problems and a lack of seriousness. It has literally zero redeeming qualities.

 

[IrishLion]

This is what I don't really get... how anyone thinks it's an enjoyable / good movie irrespective of plot holes or other issues. The movie just sucks start to finish.

The opening scene with Poe cracking your mama jokes, then you're supposed to get this heartfelt thing where Rose's sister makes a huge sacrifice to save the day and blow up the enemy ship which is then totally undermined by what happens with Finn at the end of the movie.

Leia gets blasted into space... and then survives by force magic-ing her way back onto the ship. Sure. A bold movie would've actually just killed her right there and then and could've explored how Kylo couldn't pull the trigger // but still probably feels a lot of guilt because he still loved his mom or whatever. You know, basic character development.

Mutiny against purple hair that is a miscommunication trope so bad it makes young adult fiction authors blush.

And on and on and on. It's a bad, boring movie with pacing problems and a lack of seriousness. It has literally zero redeeming qualities.

I like it for the spectacle set in the Star War universe. I guess my enjoyment of film is compartmentalized.

I’m not offended when Star Wars, which had Luke doing front flips in a swamp with a puppet on his back, has Poe telling jokes before he does some shit that looks cool as hell in a murdered-out X-Wing.

I can ignore the cringey Rose stuff, and be mad about Finn being relegated to a minor character, and still enjoy the visuals and action sequences.

Even when you slow down the lightsaber fight in the throne room agains the guards and go frame-by-frame to spot the errors… the fight still kicks ass imo.

Space fuel doesn’t make any sense! But goddamn if it wasn’t a badass visual to see one ship hyperspace itself into another.

Even the OT had a bunch of plot holes and shit that didn’t make sense if that’s the standard we’re using for TLJ. Luke was NOT ready to leave his training, did what his father did and reacted emotionally to go save the people he loved, but it worked out because reasons.

I’m a simple man. I don’t need Star Wars stuff to be written as well as Andor if it has spectacle to make up for the lack of depth and sense-making. And I also understand why Johnson did what he did with the story, which Grey already touched on so well. He got put into a corner by the shitty story setup provided by TFA, and did what he could to salvage something new and interesting…. Then it got wrecked and reset.

And I’ll go to war over Rey being a either a Skywalker or Palpatine or Kenobi or anyone related to someone previously mentioned in the lore as being the dumbest possible thing they could do.

 

[burmafrd1944]

I thought the prequels were bad until the sequels came

they are solid silver compared to the 24 karat gold of the original trilogy when compared to the three turds Disney laid

Anakin to Luke were the key characters of the entire Star Wars universe; All others supporting

So called mistakes Luke made are simply too stupid to describe. having him just check out for years is another stupidity beyond reason.

and the mary sue's and others brought up were like a crowd or worse jar jar binks

 

[burmafrd1944]

I like it for the spectacle set in the Star War universe. I guess my enjoyment of film is compartmentalized.

I’m not offended when Star Wars, which had Luke doing front flips in a swamp with a puppet on his back, has Poe telling jokes before he does some shit that looks cool as hell in a murdered-out X-Wing.

I can ignore the cringey Rose stuff, and be mad about Finn being relegated to a minor character, and still enjoy the visuals and action sequences.

Even when you slow down the lightsaber fight in the throne room agains the guards and go frame-by-frame to spot the errors… the fight still kicks ass imo.

Space fuel doesn’t make any sense! But goddamn if it wasn’t a badass visual to see one ship hyperspace itself into another.

Even the OT had a bunch of plot holes and shit that didn’t make sense if that’s the standard we’re using for TLJ. Luke was NOT ready to leave his training, did what his father did and reacted emotionally to go save the people he loved, but it worked out because reasons.

I’m a simple man. I don’t need Star Wars stuff to be written as well as Andor if it has spectacle to make up for the lack of depth and sense-making.

you chose to like it and that is fine for you
but your reasons suck
Luke was a fundamentally better person then his father was
Anakin was fucked up by both nature and nurture

 

[IrishLax]

Fuck the last jedi.

Abrams made a solid, albeit safe, foundation for the sequels. The plot was a rehash but the characters were good and had interesting avenues to develop. Johnson took it all and threw it in the trash just for the sake of being subversive. He ruined Luke. Completely misunderstood the entire character. Wasted Finn by turning him into a lame pointless sidekick. Gave us his subplot/love story with cringe Rose. Canto Bights was prequel quality. Turned Poe into a retard. Flying around making yo mamma jokes. The first order is now a complete incompetent joke. Wasted Domhnall Gleeson. Practically had him turning to the camera and winking his shit was so cheesy. Marry Poppins Leia. In the end not even having the balls to turn Rey to the dark side.

FFS I fucking hate that movie. Cracked the door wide open on me not giving a shit about Star Wars anymore.

Throw Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson in GITMO

In short, if you look at the plot of good reboots -- like Top Gun Maverick -- it's that they stay true to their characters while having some sort of compelling new story to tell. There was no compelling story in the new trilogy, that's problem #1. It's just a whole lot of nothing. The second problem is that you either killed or changed the characters that everyone cared about while not making any good new characters.

I firmly believe that if you just did a better job of making people care about Snoke and made him a more compelling villain (maybe as Palpatine's old master or someone from outside the known galaxy that poses a brand new threat idk) + made the "side quest" duo Poe & Finn with a more serious male mentor type of role + leaned in to the philosophical debate with Luke if you were going to dip your toe in that water (like have him and Yoda literally debate where the Jedi fucked up / etc. NOT just have him "quit" it would be interesting and compelling ... because Yoda has centuries of perspective and was a first hand witness to what happened with Anakin, etc.) ---- those three threads are probably a compelling middle movie and leaves you a good table set for your conclusion. Instead it was the opposite.

 

[IrishLion]

you chose to like it and that is fine for you
but your reasons suck
Luke was a fundamentally better person then his father was
Anakin was fucked up by both nature and nurture

Liking it because it’s a spectacle set in space with cool shit like lightsabers, spaceships and planet-killing weapons are sucky reasons??

That implies there are quality narrative reasons to hold the OT to a higher standard than the newer stuff, which to me seems like a contradiction.

Empire was the one movie in the OT that had a pretty tight narrative imo. The action kicks off in ANH with the most non-sensical decision of all time! RotJ would’ve had the stormtroopers slaughtering the Ewoks if we’re leaning on quality narratives that make sense.

But that’s my point! Star Wars has never been a tight narrative that always makes sense, but I’ve enjoyed almost every entry for different reasons, the primary one being “cool shit in space” because I’m a simple man and that’s what I’m watching a space opera for.

I don’t go to the movies to see Super Mario with my kids and get upset at the lack of meaningful dialogue, the same way I don’t go see a Scorsese film and lament the lack of lightheartedness.

Also, if we must talk narrative points, I’d argue Luke is not inherently a better person than Anakin, but like you said, was a victim of time and place.

 

[ACamp1900]

…recognizing that tLJ, while a very flawed movie, is clearly the best of the new trilogy. Poor Rian Johnson took the hit for JJ's bullshit.

That moment when someone you did not have even one shred of respect for,…. Loses even that,…….. it’s like the Boos I had for you got sucked into space but were force-bubbled back to life.

 

[ACamp1900]

TLJ is the single worst film ever made by man for many reasons,… I’d rather watch Manos the Hands of Fate on loop and analyze Torgo’s drug induced spasms than ever subject myself to that snuff film again. (Insert haters-ball gif)

 

[greyhammer90]

I think I've written it earlier in this thread but the people on here who screech about Leia floating through space would absolutely have hated the Millenium Falcon being inside a worm in ESB if they had first watched it as jaded 30-somethings. "So they can just walk around inside this worm despite the vacuum of space?!? How does something of that size survive in such remote conditions?! What does it even breathe?! If Han's blaster was enough to hurt it, the Falcon landing should've also caused it to move!"

But they watched the fun space movie as children so they like that part.

 

[ACamp1900]

I think I've written it earlier in this thread but the people on here who screech about Leia floating through space would absolutely have hated the Millenium Falcon being inside a worm in ESB if they had first watched it as jaded 30-somethings. "So they can just walk around inside this worm despite the vacuum of space?!? How does something of that size survive in such remote conditions?! What does it even breathe?! If Han's blaster was enough to hurt it, the Falcon landing should've also caused it to move!"

But they watched the fun space movie as children so they like that part.

Do not underestimate the power of my childhood cynicism...

 

[ACamp1900]

The internet is watching,... this immediately pops up in my feed:

 

[tussin]

I think I've written it earlier in this thread but the people on here who screech about Leia floating through space would absolutely have hated the Millenium Falcon being inside a worm in ESB if they had first watched it as jaded 30-somethings. "So they can just walk around inside this worm despite the vacuum of space?!? How does something of that size survive in such remote conditions?! What does it even breathe?! If Han's blaster was enough to hurt it, the Falcon landing should've also caused it to move!"

But they watched the fun space movie as children so they like that part.

You're reaching with this take.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Rogue One is tremendous. Easily my favorite of all the films. Empire Strikes Back is second. Was first for a very long time.

Andor is peak good.

 

[TheProspector]

Rogue One is tremendous. Easily my favorite of all the films. Empire Strikes Back is second. Was first for a very long time.

Andor is peak good.

Andor was excellent. Rogue One was just a well made Star Wars fanfic. Fine enough in a vacuum but mostly empty calories. I actually think Solo was a more interesting story even if the movie looks ugly as sin.

 

[TheProspector]

TLJ is the single worst film ever made by man for many reasons,… I’d rather watch Manos the Hands of Fate on loop and analyze Torgo’s drug induced spasms than ever subject myself to that snuff film again. (Insert haters-ball gif)

Rise of Skywalker was the biggest pile of shit in the whole trilogy (followed by the Phantom Menace). Although to be far to Rise, the choices made in TLJ put it in a rough spot to craft any cohesive narrative.

 

[greyhammer90]

Although to be far to Rise, the choices made in TLJ put it in a rough spot to craft any cohesive narrative.

Since I'm exorcising demons here, this is another one of those often stated things that I don't really understand. The Last Jedi ended with Rey discovering she doesn't have a grand lineage, the "rebels" escaping from the "Empire" by the skin of their teeth, Kylo becoming the big bad after he did what Siths do by killing his master, Luke doing what Jedi Masters do by dying with the implication that he will be back as a ghost to continue training his apprentice, and Rey rejecting Kylo's call to join the dark side.

Not directed at TheProspector but can anyone tell me what was the great subversion that made continuing a Star Wars narrative so impossible?

 

[IrishLion]

Since I'm exorcising demons here, this is another one of those often stated things that I don't really understand. The Last Jedi ended with Rey discovering she doesn't have a grand lineage, the "rebels" escaping from the "Empire" by the skin of their teeth, Kylo becoming the big bad after he did what Siths do by killing his master, Luke doing what Jedi Masters do by dying with the implication that he will be back as a ghost to continue training his apprentice, and Rey rejecting Kylo's call to join the dark side.

What is the great subversion that made continuing a Star Wars narrative so impossible?

Luke and Snoke both dying after being set up in TFA as integral to the story and eventual resolution throws everyone off.

I figured the final conflict/resolution was going to be Rey finally bringing true balance, as Luke and Snoke were out of the way, leaving her to deal with Kylo.

The Force generating a true wildcard with no connection to the Skywalker lineage made so much sense as a way to close the Skywalker chapter and open up Disney’s new Star Wars universe with almost no limits on new IP… and they fuckin ruined it by making her a Palpatine and killing Kylo in the most predictable way.

They could’ve done almost anything else that’s more interesting… Rey and Kylo realize together that both sides of the Force must coexist, and they come to a grudging understanding, or one/both become gray Jedi, or they both bite the dust and the Force resets with a bunch of kids we don’t even know yet. Could’ve gone anywhere with it!

 

[burmafrd1944]

Liking it because it’s a spectacle set in space with cool shit like lightsabers, spaceships and planet-killing weapons are sucky reasons??

That implies there are quality narrative reasons to hold the OT to a higher standard than the newer stuff, which to me seems like a contradiction.

Empire was the one movie in the OT that had a pretty tight narrative imo. The action kicks off in ANH with the most non-sensical decision of all time! RotJ would’ve had the stormtroopers slaughtering the Ewoks if we’re leaning on quality narratives that make sense.

But that’s my point! Star Wars has never been a tight narrative that always makes sense, but I’ve enjoyed almost every entry for different reasons, the primary one being “cool shit in space” because I’m a simple man and that’s what I’m watching a space opera for.

I don’t go to the movies to see Super Mario with my kids and get upset at the lack of meaningful dialogue, the same way I don’t go see a Scorsese film and lament the lack of lightheartedness.

Also, if we must talk narrative points, I’d argue Luke is not inherently a better person than Anakin, but like you said, was a victim of time and place.

if you cannot see luke was inherently better then you have no case at all